If you see it that way it still doesn't make sense tho.
My problem here is purely that when he provides an explanation for as to why the power failed to manifest, its not that he nullified the power. It's that frozen matter can't function. That is a general statement about matter that makes it sound like the sword can't function while frozen.
I can also just interpret that as "Power Null via Ice Manipulation" if that's what you're looking for.
I need to point out he is talking about his ability.
Nah i don't get it how it's matter.
Toshiro says as much on how it loses its power, matter can't function when frozen. He doesn't say, Daiguren Hyorinmaru can nullify powers or stop them from working when it freezes things. He just says matter can't function when frozen. All as an explanation as to why Hoffnung's power doesn't work. Yeah, I think that's an explanation that's dumb, but it's the explanation given by the characters in story. So I'm inclined to believe that's true. So while Gerard might say it's a sword of people's hopes bundled together, it still also clearly matter (spiritual matter sure but matter nonetheless).
Well the way he phrases it makes it seem like, he can nullify things via his ice manipulation rather than he can null matter via freezing it.
By this Toshiro later says all your hope is frozen*.
Gerard has already stated, The blades Damage reflection is part of the Miracle Hax "hope", the same one giving Gerard god size, Absorbing damage for Reactive Power Level.
Toshiro states after his "Hope" lost function clearly his not just solely talking about matter.
Then Gerard switches to his bow attempting to use something that doesn't rely on "supernatural" functions
i don't know what "Normal/Natural" matter you can cut that reflects damage back to you.
It's more like people don't want to accept if shounen shows has some great abilities.
I think I understand what you're trying to say. You mention that while Toshiro's ability is related to ice, the author does not explain how and for what reason he cancels the power.
I mean, this is just a staple of Bleach and Shonen in general. If not superpowered fiction as a whole.
No my problem is that he does offer an explanation, but the explanation we're given points more towards the sword not working just because its frozen instead of because Toshiro can nullify powers. If the explanation wasn't in there in the first place, I would agree that its textbook power nulling, but the explanation we're given makes it sound like the sword just doesn't work if its matter can't function.
Why interpret it like this rather than just interpreting it as Power Null via Ice Manipulation?
Maybe it's because of the translation I read, but he doesn't say that talent doesn't work because Toshiro is frozen there, he just says I freeze the talent. Toshiro cancels the ability by freezing, freezing all physical effects, and because it is frozen, the fact that the Sword does not work is no different anyway, because before he became an adult, he could freeze the sword.
The explanation given by Hitsugaya about how his power works. We complaing about Bleach character telling their powers to their opponents but now somehow Hitsugaya knew of Gerard's power weakness out of nowhere? Not Kubo's writing. Hitsugaya could had die if his ice hadn't work.
I don't agree with the assessment that assuming power null is a safer conclusion, because I'm going purely off of what is provided by the characters in that moment.
His statement doesn't indicate freezing the skill. And I think trying to say that it logically makes no sense doesn't work here, because being able to freeze an abstract thing makes just about as much sense as a power not working because the matter its tied to is frozen. Both are absurd and have no basis in reality. And looking at the setting of bleach, neither one would be more absurd than the other because we have no basis prior to this to base this situation off of.
Looking at the Viz translation, which I'm pretty sure is the standard we use here, and the scans provided both directly give us that all matter ceases to function when frozen statement. And while Toshiro could've potentially frozen the sword before he went into his fully matured bankai state, there isn't ever a chance for Toshiro to do so in the fight. After Gerard pulls out the sword and shows it powers, Toshiro goes into his final state, so we can't use that as a way to prove that the nullification of Gerard's sword power only works with Toshiro's freezing with his matured Bankai.
What ? Seriously.
Toshiro giving a punch like has nothing to do with OP. I would like you to request look at the feat not about Toshiro making a punchline in middle of battle. Gerald multiple times states he can't be frozen.
Please can you point out where it's stated Gerald powers doesn't work when it's frozen. Gerald himself states damaging hoffnung would reflect it back. He owns the sword he knows about it. If freezing would stop that he shouldn't said that.
I never said it was, however Yomi did mention that, so I decided to counter that point as well.
I'm not talking about Gerard here, I'm talking about his stupid sword. And it's not just a punchline, it is the explanation he gives for as to why Gerard's sword isn't working. Gerard showed multiple times that he had resistance to freezing, I'm not arguing against that at all. What I'm arguing against, is Toshiro's bankai having power-null, which is being used to also give Gerard resistance to power-null.
Sure, I'll point it for you using the very scans you provide:
But what i'm trying to point out here is that we have no solid correlation between the explanation of how hoffnung works and matter not functioning when frozen.
Hmm? when? I never brought up power null via reiatsu at all.
Ok actually yomi kinda explain it different way. I wanna point out new ghouls introduced in hell Arc has no reatsu. Also Kotostu is free from reatsu. And burn the witch is pure magic. Just giving example btw for non reastu things also quincies don't excert Reatsu.
Yes. If all it takes was to freeze his sword to negate its effect (something made up by the one arguing against it above, since not even the characters themselves knew of that suppose made up weakness that no one person mentioned before) the first time Hitsugaya froze him in his kid form would had work.
That's my point. It's literally powernull because he literally broke it into two. Gerald who is owner of the sword knows it would reflect it's attacks and stated it would reflect on Toshiro too. But Toshi just wanted to look cooler used punchline to explain the ability that's all.
It's never a weakness of this ability and why is this Toshiro's ice a power "doesn't work because it's frozen", it doesn't matter if he says the skill or the sword because if he says both, the skill freezes and no longer works. There is no evidence or argument to say that this will not work any other attack either.
Yeah. Also gerald has miracle which is probability manipulation. Toshiro even froze him
My problem here is that the statement elaborates on the feat in a way that indicates that Toshiro himself does not possess powernull with his ice. Toshiro's statement makes it sound as if Rukia could freeze and then break Gerard's sword and also not suffer damage from it as well. The statement points to the idea that the sword can't function properly if it is frozen, which would not give Toshiro powernull with his matured bankai, but Gerard a weakness where his Hope can't function if his sword is frozen.
I don't think the logic you use is definitely better. you say it's perfectly natural to ignore the causality manipulation with the damage reflecting ability sort of causality manipulation and normally freezing through. how come you look at the way the damage done to the sword is reflected on the opponent how come you are claiming that damage reflection is no longer functional because it is normally just covered in ice seriously I don't understand. It doesn't make any sense at all. Gerard wouldn't be surprised if any of the ice blocked his Hope ability anyway. Gerard thinks that when Toshiro cuts, he will split in two because that's how the ability works, to claim that such an ability doesn't work with just covering it with ice and an ordinary ice covering is totally against my logic. So why should a damage reflection be blocked by an ordinary ice, gerard's ability that creates the ability is ordinary we ice So he doesn't know that he's going to freeze with it? How is ice cream with ice different from cutting with a sword? should it work for one, not the other? It's much more head canon to think that Gerard's talent can be canceled with any ice, in my opinion, I am sure that the people here think like me, and if you say you disagree, there is still nothing we can do to convince you.
Again his words is just punch dialogue kinda thing
The power isn't even physically inside the Sword. The power is in the concept of hope given to it, so freezing it as a physical substance should not affect the concept, which is still hope.
Yeah. Also Feats talks for themselves.
More mod entries are needed. If the only mod is in duate, the discussion will not end and it will not be accepted as a result. That's why we need mods who think like us.
But the thing here is that Toshiro proceeds to cut it in half and we know from earlier that Kenpachi had damage reflected to him after cutting the sword. So the ice power nulled the sword since Toshiro cut clean through it without any problems being reflected and says that the hope has stopped working after he froze it. This also fits under the definition of power nullification that is used on VSbattles Wiki.
My problem with this interpretation makes the characters know something that they have no knowledge of and that was not mentioned by a character before Hitsugaya mocked Gerard's statement. It is flavory language.
