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Bleach: Possibly ability addition for Gerald, Toshiro, Yhwach and Soul King

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Essentially it makes it sound like Toshiro just circumvented Gerald's sword power, instead of directly nullifying it.
If you see it that way it still doesn't make sense tho.

A supernatural sword somehow loses its function when it is frozen because matter ceases to function when frozen?

If im not mistaken here, your interpretation of this scene is that toshiro circumvented hoffnung by freezing it rather than nulling?

But going by the function of hoffnung, that shouldn't do anything since the specific ability it has is damage transfer and idk how freezing would circumvent that.
 
Breaking the sword = recieving damage

Toshiro used his power and cut the sword in half, receiving no damage from the swords ability

That's pretty text book power nullification
If you see it that way it still doesn't make sense tho.

A supernatural sword somehow loses its function when it is frozen because matter ceases to function when frozen?

If im not mistaken here, your interpretation of this scene is that toshiro circumvented hoffnung by freezing it rather than nulling?

But going by the function of hoffnung, that shouldn't do anything since the specific ability it has is damage transfer and idk how freezing would circumvent that.
My problem here is purely that when he provides an explanation for as to why the power failed to manifest, its not that he nullified the power. It's that frozen matter can't function. That is a general statement about matter that makes it sound like the sword can't function while frozen.
 
My problem here is purely that when he provides an explanation for as to why the power failed to manifest, its not that he nullified the power. It's that frozen matter can't function. That is a general statement about matter that makes it sound like the sword can't function while frozen.
I can also just interpret that as "Power Null via Ice Manipulation" if that's what you're looking for.

And i don't think we can compare regular matter to reishi here given that Bleach themselves make a clear distinction of the two (Reishi and Kishi)
 
My problem here is purely that when he provides an explanation for as to why the power failed to manifest, its not that he nullified the power. It's that frozen matter can't function. That is a general statement about matter that makes it sound like the sword can't function while frozen.
I need to point out he is talking about his ability.
Also how does it looses it's power ? That is made up of people hope why does it looses it's power just so it got frozen also he broke it. Look at kenpachi scans of chipping it. He literally got that damage back to himself.
 
I can also just interpret that as "Power Null via Ice Manipulation" if that's what you're looking for.

And i don't think we can compare regular matter to reishi here given that Bleach themselves make a clear distinction of the two (Reishi and Kishi)
Nah i don't get it how it's matter.

1. We saw how hoffnung works and it's not made up of matter. It's literally created by people hope.
2. Kenpachi literally got affected by it.
3. Gerald also states freezing won't matter by you can look at his expressions.

I am pretty sure Toshiro is trying to say whatever gets froze in his ice looses it's power.
 
I can also just interpret that as "Power Null via Ice Manipulation" if that's what you're looking for.

And i don't think we can compare regular matter to reishi here given that Bleach themselves make a clear distinction of the two (Reishi and Kishi)
I need to point out he is talking about his ability.
Also how does it looses it's power ? That is made up of people hope why does it looses it's power just so it got frozen also he broke it. Look at kenpachi scans of chipping it. He literally got that damage back to himself.
Nah i don't get it how it's matter.

1. We saw how hoffnung works and it's not made up of matter. It's literally created by people hope.
2. Kenpachi literally got affected by it.
3. Gerald also states freezing won't matter by you can look at his expressions.

I am pretty sure Toshiro is trying to say whatever gets froze in his ice looses it's power.
Toshiro says as much on how it loses its power, matter can't function when frozen. He doesn't say, Daiguren Hyorinmaru can nullify powers or stop them from working when it freezes things. He just says matter can't function when frozen. All as an explanation as to why Hoffnung's power doesn't work. Yeah, I think that's an explanation that's dumb, but it's the explanation given by the characters in story. So I'm inclined to believe that's true. So while Gerard might say it's a sword of people's hopes bundled together, it still also clearly matter (spiritual matter sure but matter nonetheless).
 
Gerard has already stated, The blades Damage reflection is part of the Miracle Hax "hope", the same one giving Gerard god size, Absorbing damage for Reactive Power Level.
1.png

Toshiro states after his "Hope" lost function clearly his not just solely talking about matter.
2.png

Then Gerard switches to his bow attempting to use something that doesn't rely on "supernatural" functions
3.png

i don't know what "Normal/Natural" matter you can cut that reflects damage back to you.
 
Toshiro says as much on how it loses its power, matter can't function when frozen. He doesn't say, Daiguren Hyorinmaru can nullify powers or stop them from working when it freezes things. He just says matter can't function when frozen. All as an explanation as to why Hoffnung's power doesn't work. Yeah, I think that's an explanation that's dumb, but it's the explanation given by the characters in story. So I'm inclined to believe that's true. So while Gerard might say it's a sword of people's hopes bundled together, it still also clearly matter (spiritual matter sure but matter nonetheless).
Well the way he phrases it makes it seem like, he can nullify things via his ice manipulation rather than he can null matter via freezing it.
 
Toshiro says as much on how it loses its power, matter can't function when frozen. He doesn't say, Daiguren Hyorinmaru can nullify powers or stop them from working when it freezes things. He just says matter can't function when frozen. All as an explanation as to why Hoffnung's power doesn't work. Yeah, I think that's an explanation that's dumb, but it's the explanation given by the characters in story. So I'm inclined to believe that's true. So while Gerard might say it's a sword of people's hopes bundled together, it still also clearly matter (spiritual matter sure but matter nonetheless).
By this Toshiro later says all your hope is frozen*.
He says all matter looses it's function when it's frozen because his abilities can freeze and powernull things.

The thing is he still nulled hoffnung effect.
Gerard has already stated, The blades Damage reflection is part of the Miracle Hax "hope", the same one giving Gerard god size, Absorbing damage for Reactive Power Level.
1.png

Toshiro states after his "Hope" lost function clearly his not just solely talking about matter.
2.png

Then Gerard switches to his bow attempting to use something that doesn't rely on "supernatural" functions
3.png

i don't know what "Normal/Natural" matter you can cut that reflects damage back to you.
 
sigh i blame Kubo for the showcase of the Miracle Gerards ability is more then just "the damage i take can be converted to strength yada yada".
 
sigh i blame Kubo for the showcase of the Miracle Gerards ability is more then just "the damage i take can be converted to strength yada yada".
It's more like people don't want to accept if shounen shows has some great abilities.

It's clearly by now how gerald abilities works. His miracle is wish of people literary means everything but for now he shown two different things.

1. Hope
2. Fear

It's even has feats. I don't see any problem though.
 
My problem here is purely that when he provides an explanation for as to why the power failed to manifest, its not that he nullified the power. It's that frozen matter can't function. That is a general statement about matter that makes it sound like the sword can't function while frozen.
I think I understand what you're trying to say. You mention that while Toshiro's ability is related to ice, the author does not explain how and for what reason he cancels the power.
 
I think I understand what you're trying to say. You mention that while Toshiro's ability is related to ice, the author does not explain how and for what reason he cancels the power.
I mean, this is just a staple of Bleach and Shonen in general. If not superpowered fiction as a whole.

An effect of an ability not correlating to how it is done is just a hallmark of supernatural themes.

Idk why we're getting nitpicky on toshiro's case here.

I can easily just counter this argument by saying just freezing hoffnung will do nothing based on how gerard explains it so Toshiro should have power null....
 
I mean, this is just a staple of Bleach and Shonen in general. If not superpowered fiction as a whole.

An effect of an ability not correlating to how it is done is just a hallmark of supernatural themes.

Idk why we're getting nitpicky on toshiro's case here.

I can easily just counter this argument by saying just freezing hoffnung will do nothing based on how gerard explains it so Toshiro should have power null....
I think I understand what you're trying to say. You mention that while Toshiro's ability is related to ice, the author does not explain how and for what reason he cancels the power.
No my problem is that he does offer an explanation, but the explanation we're given points more towards the sword not working just because its frozen instead of because Toshiro can nullify powers. If the explanation wasn't in there in the first place, I would agree that its textbook power nulling, but the explanation we're given makes it sound like the sword just doesn't work if its matter can't function.
 
No my problem is that he does offer an explanation, but the explanation we're given points more towards the sword not working just because its frozen instead of because Toshiro can nullify powers. If the explanation wasn't in there in the first place, I would agree that its textbook power nulling, but the explanation we're given makes it sound like the sword just doesn't work if its matter can't function.
Why interpret it like this rather than just interpreting it as Power Null via Ice Manipulation?

And Toshiro's explanation on how it works when applied to how Gerard explains hoffnung wouldn't really.....clash with each other if anything.

Nothing points towards the hoffnung not working when frozen based on Gerard's explanation and you can make the conclusion that Matured Toshiro's ice has power nulling properties via spiritual bullshittery.

This is a much safer conclusion to go by rather than the one you are proposing IMO.
 
No my problem is that he does offer an explanation, but the explanation we're given points more towards the sword not working just because its frozen instead of because Toshiro can nullify powers. If the explanation wasn't in there in the first place, I would agree that its textbook power nulling, but the explanation we're given makes it sound like the sword just doesn't work if its matter can't function.
Maybe it's because of the translation I read, but he doesn't say that talent doesn't work because Toshiro is frozen there, he just says I freeze the talent. Toshiro cancels the ability by freezing, freezing all physical effects, and because it is frozen, the fact that the Sword does not work is no different anyway, because before he became an adult, he could freeze the sword.
 
Toshiro talks about freezing the skill, not the sword. and that makes a lot more sense than freezing the sword and canceling the ability. Sword freezing doesn't logically prevent the hope power because power is more of an abstract strength it's a skill it doesn't make sense for it to be canceled by a physical effect on the Sword.
 
No my problem is that he does offer an explanation, but the explanation we're given points more towards the sword not working just because its frozen instead of because Toshiro can nullify powers. If the explanation wasn't in there in the first place, I would agree that its textbook power nulling, but the explanation we're given makes it sound like the sword just doesn't work if its matter can't function.
The explanation given by Hitsugaya about how his power works. We complaing about Bleach character telling their powers to their opponents but now somehow Hitsugaya knew of Gerard's power weakness out of nowhere? Not Kubo's writing. Hitsugaya could had die if his ice hadn't work.
 
Why interpret it like this rather than just interpreting it as Power Null via Ice Manipulation?

And Toshiro's explanation on how it works when applied to how Gerard explains hoffnung wouldn't really.....clash with each other if anything.

Nothing points towards the hoffnung not working when frozen based on Gerard's explanation and you can make the conclusion that Matured Toshiro's ice has power nulling properties via spiritual bullshittery.

This is a much safer conclusion to go by rather than the one you are proposing IMO.
I don't agree with the assessment that assuming power null is a safer conclusion, because I'm going purely off of what is provided by the characters in that moment.

When Gerard swings his sword at Toshiro, Toshiro freezes and breaks it.
When Gerard mentions the effect of his weapon, Toshiro responds with the words:
"If It's frozen, all matter ceases to function. All of your Hope has stopped functioning."
And we're shown he isn't affected.

Looking at that statement, his explanation for the swords's power not working is that: Because matter ceases to function when frozen, your sword's ability ceases to work.
Nowhere in any of Toshiro's explanation, does he indicate that the power stopped working because his matured bankai allows him to nullify the powers of others.

And there also isn't a significant enough power difference between the two, when Aizen neutralized the power of Sui-Feng he was literal tiers above her where in this fight with Gerard everyone while eclipsing one another here and there still seemed capable of harming one another, up till the point Gerard entered his final form.

The much safer conclusion in my opinion is to assume that the sword's power can't work when its frozen in my mind because the dialogue itself points more in this direction than it does in any other.

Toshiro talks about freezing the skill, not the sword. and that makes a lot more sense than freezing the sword and canceling the ability. Sword freezing doesn't logically prevent the hope power because power is more of an abstract strength it's a skill it doesn't make sense for it to be canceled by a physical effect on the Sword.
His statement doesn't indicate freezing the skill. And I think trying to say that it logically makes no sense doesn't work here, because being able to freeze an abstract thing makes just about as much sense as a power not working because the matter its tied to is frozen. Both are absurd and have no basis in reality. And looking at the setting of bleach, neither one would be more absurd than the other because we have no basis prior to this to base this situation off of.
Maybe it's because of the translation I read, but he doesn't say that talent doesn't work because Toshiro is frozen there, he just says I freeze the talent. Toshiro cancels the ability by freezing, freezing all physical effects, and because it is frozen, the fact that the Sword does not work is no different anyway, because before he became an adult, he could freeze the sword.
Looking at the Viz translation, which I'm pretty sure is the standard we use here, and the scans provided both directly give us that all matter ceases to function when frozen statement. And while Toshiro could've potentially frozen the sword before he went into his fully matured bankai state, there isn't ever a chance for Toshiro to do so in the fight. After Gerard pulls out the sword and shows it powers, Toshiro goes into his final state, so we can't use that as a way to prove that the nullification of Gerard's sword power only works with Toshiro's freezing with his matured Bankai.
 
I don't agree with the assessment that assuming power null is a safer conclusion, because I'm going purely off of what is provided by the characters in that moment.

When Gerard swings his sword at Toshiro, Toshiro freezes and breaks it.
When Gerard mentions the effect of his weapon, Toshiro responds with the words:
"If It's frozen, all matter ceases to function. All of your Hope has stopped functioning."
And we're shown he isn't affected.

Looking at that statement, his explanation for the swords's power not working is that: Because matter ceases to function when frozen, your sword's ability ceases to work.
Nowhere in any of Toshiro's explanation, does he indicate that the power stopped working because his matured bankai allows him to nullify the powers of others.

And there also isn't a significant enough power difference between the two, when Aizen neutralized the power of Sui-Feng he was literal tiers above her where in this fight with Gerard everyone while eclipsing one another here and there still seemed capable of harming one another, up till the point Gerard entered his final form.

The much safer conclusion in my opinion is to assume that the sword's power can't work when its frozen in my mind because the dialogue itself points more in this direction than it does in any other.
What ? Seriously.
In bleach everything is not about reatsu powernull.
His statement doesn't indicate freezing the skill. And I think trying to say that it logically makes no sense doesn't work here, because being able to freeze an abstract thing makes just about as much sense as a power not working because the matter its tied to is frozen. Both are absurd and have no basis in reality. And looking at the setting of bleach, neither one would be more absurd than the other because we have no basis prior to this to base this situation off of.
Toshiro giving a punch like has nothing to do with OP. I would like you to request look at the feat not about Toshiro making a punchline in middle of battle. Gerald multiple times states he can't be frozen.
Looking at the Viz translation, which I'm pretty sure is the standard we use here, and the scans provided both directly give us that all matter ceases to function when frozen statement. And while Toshiro could've potentially frozen the sword before he went into his fully matured bankai state, there isn't ever a chance for Toshiro to do so in the fight. After Gerard pulls out the sword and shows it powers, Toshiro goes into his final state, so we can't use that as a way to prove that the nullification of Gerard's sword power only works with Toshiro's freezing with his matured Bankai.
Please can you point out where it's stated Gerald powers doesn't work when it's frozen. Gerald himself states damaging hoffnung would reflect it back. He owns the sword he knows about it. If freezing would stop that he shouldn't said that.
 
What ? Seriously.
In bleach everything is not about reatsu powernull.
I never said it was, however Yomi did mention that, so I decided to counter that point as well.
Toshiro giving a punch like has nothing to do with OP. I would like you to request look at the feat not about Toshiro making a punchline in middle of battle. Gerald multiple times states he can't be frozen.
I'm not talking about Gerard here, I'm talking about his stupid sword. And it's not just a punchline, it is the explanation he gives for as to why Gerard's sword isn't working. Gerard showed multiple times that he had resistance to freezing, I'm not arguing against that at all. What I'm arguing against, is Toshiro's bankai having power-null, which is being used to also give Gerard resistance to power-null.
Please can you point out where it's stated Gerald powers doesn't work when it's frozen. Gerald himself states damaging hoffnung would reflect it back. He owns the sword he knows about it. If freezing would stop that he shouldn't said that.
Sure, I'll point it for you using the very scans you provide:



Just following the first two pages:
When Gerard swings his sword at Toshiro, Toshiro freezes and breaks it.
When Gerard mentions the effect of his weapon, Toshiro responds with the words:
Matter ceases to function when frozen.
Toshiro suffers none of the effects of harming Gerard's sword.
This indicates that Gerard's sword's ability can't work when frozen.

Simple as that.
 
I don't agree with the assessment that assuming power null is a safer conclusion, because I'm going purely off of what is provided by the characters in that moment.

When Gerard swings his sword at Toshiro, Toshiro freezes and breaks it.
When Gerard mentions the effect of his weapon, Toshiro responds with the words:
"If It's frozen, all matter ceases to function. All of your Hope has stopped functioning."
And we're shown he isn't affected.

Looking at that statement, his explanation for the swords's power not working is that: Because matter ceases to function when frozen, your sword's ability ceases to work.
Nowhere in any of Toshiro's explanation, does he indicate that the power stopped working because his matured bankai allows him to nullify the powers of others.

And there also isn't a significant enough power difference between the two, when Aizen neutralized the power of Sui-Feng he was literal tiers above her where in this fight with Gerard everyone while eclipsing one another here and there still seemed capable of harming one another, up till the point Gerard entered his final form.

The much safer conclusion in my opinion is to assume that the sword's power can't work when its frozen in my mind because the dialogue itself points more in this direction than it does in any other.
But what i'm trying to point out here is that we have no solid correlation between the explanation of how hoffnung works and matter not functioning when frozen.

This is setting aside the fact that Hoffnung clearly isn't functioning the way normal matter works (It's reishi and not kishi, which has similarities but functions differently enough to have a clear distinction like they exists in different realms and reishi can be absorbed) and it is obviously supernatural in nature.

Plus (Disclaimer that i'm not a physicist), the explanation that "matter stops functioning when frozen" is just flat out incomplete. iirc this is only correct in temperatures of absolute zero where you have a total absence of heat and entropy disappears entirely. Toshiro's ice is not absolute zero so it makes no sense that it can completely stop matter when frozen.

I am also going by what is provided by the characters in the moment. In this case, Gerard's explanation of the hoffnung.

Using The Miracle, Gerard can manifest the "hopes" of his allies into his Spirit Weapon, Hoffnung. By doing this, hoffnung becomes nigh-unbreakable and reflects any damage it does take back onto the attacker.

Based on how Gerard explains it, how it functions has nothing to do with the movement of particles that make it up and it is all innate and reliant on those in the battlefield to function. Given this, Hoffnung being frozen would not conflict with the way it functions.

Toshiro freezing it may make the bonds of the sword easier to slice apart and make it more fragile. But when he slices it, it should work the way it intended to because it is reliant on those around it to function rather than the physical machinations that involve molecular bonds and such.

Toshiro still has to deal with the primary ability of Hoffnung which is damage transfer and his ice was able to bypass this not because it was frozen, but because it was nulled.

Heck, If toshiro freezing matter would actually just stop it from working then he should be able to use this ability in his previous forms and not just his matured bankai but why didn't he? He had a lot of opportunity to do it like with Yukio's PSP fullbring and Harribel's arm blade which can release water. If what you say is really what happened then he had this ability all along but somehow never used it and that's because he knows that simply freezing reishi-based, supernatural substance without anything special to it would do nothing.

Basically,

1.) How the hoffnung works and it being frozen would not conflict with each other given by how the former functions. It should work just fine and at best it would only make the sword more fragile.

2.) The explanation that "matter stops working when it is frozen" is really only applicable in temperatures of absolute zero. Toshiro's ice is not absolute zero and thus it can't completely stop matter from working.

I still don't know why we're getting this entirely nitpicky with Toshiro here :rolleyes:
 
I never said it was, however Yomi did mention that, so I decided to counter that point as well.

I'm not talking about Gerard here, I'm talking about his stupid sword. And it's not just a punchline, it is the explanation he gives for as to why Gerard's sword isn't working. Gerard showed multiple times that he had resistance to freezing, I'm not arguing against that at all. What I'm arguing against, is Toshiro's bankai having power-null, which is being used to also give Gerard resistance to power-null.
Ok actually yomi kinda explain it different way. I wanna point out new ghouls introduced in hell Arc has no reatsu. Also Kotostu is free from reatsu. And burn the witch is pure magic. Just giving example btw for non reastu things also quincies don't excert Reatsu.
Sure, I'll point it for you using the very scans you provide:



Just following the first two pages:
When Gerard swings his sword at Toshiro, Toshiro freezes and breaks it.
When Gerard mentions the effect of his weapon, Toshiro responds with the words:
Matter ceases to function when frozen.
Toshiro suffers none of the effects of harming Gerard's sword.
This indicates that Gerard's sword's ability can't work when frozen.

Simple as that.

You are missing one thing Gerald still point out damaging (freezing in here) would reflect it back. But it didn't gerald knows better about hoffnung than Toshiro. That Toshiro statement is punchline. You know it's kinda looks badass when using those type of things.

But my argument for powernull is based on feat not Toshiro statement. One more thing gerald probability manipulation is proposed and he can make himself not freezable he broke it out too but still later froze him regardless.

I hope i clearly explained how his technique works.
 
I never said it was, however Yomi did mention that, so I decided to counter that point as well.

I'm not talking about Gerard here, I'm talking about his stupid sword. And it's not just a punchline, it is the explanation he gives for as to why Gerard's sword isn't working. Gerard showed multiple times that he had resistance to freezing, I'm not arguing against that at all. What I'm arguing against, is Toshiro's bankai having power-null, which is being used to also give Gerard resistance to power-null.

Sure, I'll point it for you using the very scans you provide:



Just following the first two pages:
When Gerard swings his sword at Toshiro, Toshiro freezes and breaks it.
When Gerard mentions the effect of his weapon, Toshiro responds with the words:
Matter ceases to function when frozen.
Toshiro suffers none of the effects of harming Gerard's sword.
This indicates that Gerard's sword's ability can't work when frozen.

Simple as that.

So Toshiro powernulled it?
 
So Toshiro powernulled it?
Yes. If all it takes was to freeze his sword to negate its effect (something made up by the one arguing against it above, since not even the characters themselves knew of that suppose made up weakness that no one person mentioned before) the first time Hitsugaya froze him in his kid form would had work.
 
power is null here, in my opinion. because if we say that he froze the sword and hope did not work, I would say that something Toshiro froze cannot display talent. If he froze the ability, it would have nulled the power anyway, so it neutralizes the power in every way with toshiro ice.
 
power is null here, in my opinion. because if we say that he froze the sword and hope did not work, I would say that something Toshiro froze cannot display talent. If he froze the ability, it would have nulled the power anyway, so it neutralizes the power in every way with toshiro ice.
That's my point. It's literally powernull because he literally broke it into two. Gerald who is owner of the sword knows it would reflect it's attacks and stated it would reflect on Toshiro too. But Toshi just wanted to look cooler used punchline to explain the ability that's all.
 
That's my point. It's literally powernull because he literally broke it into two. Gerald who is owner of the sword knows it would reflect it's attacks and stated it would reflect on Toshiro too. But Toshi just wanted to look cooler used punchline to explain the ability that's all.
It's never a weakness of this ability and why is this Toshiro's ice a power "doesn't work because it's frozen", it doesn't matter if he says the skill or the sword because if he says both, the skill freezes and no longer works. There is no evidence or argument to say that this will not work any other attack either.
 
It's never a weakness of this ability and why is this Toshiro's ice a power "doesn't work because it's frozen", it doesn't matter if he says the skill or the sword because if he says both, the skill freezes and no longer works. There is no evidence or argument to say that this will not work any other attack either.
Yeah. Also gerald has miracle which is probability manipulation. Toshiro even froze him
 
So Toshiro powernulled it?
Ok actually yomi kinda explain it different way. I wanna point out new ghouls introduced in hell Arc has no reatsu. Also Kotostu is free from reatsu. And burn the witch is pure magic. Just giving example btw for non reastu things also quincies don't excert Reatsu.

You are missing one thing Gerald still point out damaging (freezing in here) would reflect it back. But it didn't gerald knows better about hoffnung than Toshiro. That Toshiro statement is punchline. You know it's kinda looks badass when using those type of things.

But my argument for powernull is based on feat not Toshiro statement. One more thing gerald probability manipulation is proposed and he can make himself not freezable he broke it out too but still later froze him regardless.

I hope i clearly explained how his technique works.
My problem here is that the statement elaborates on the feat in a way that indicates that Toshiro himself does not possess powernull with his ice. Toshiro's statement makes it sound as if Rukia could freeze and then break Gerard's sword and also not suffer damage from it as well. The statement points to the idea that the sword can't function properly if it is frozen, which would not give Toshiro powernull with his matured bankai, but Gerard a weakness where his Hope can't function if his sword is frozen.
That's my point. It's literally powernull because he literally broke it into two. Gerald who is owner of the sword knows it would reflect it's attacks and stated it would reflect on Toshiro too. But Toshi just wanted to look cooler used punchline to explain the ability that's all.
It's never a weakness of this ability and why is this Toshiro's ice a power "doesn't work because it's frozen", it doesn't matter if he says the skill or the sword because if he says both, the skill freezes and no longer works. There is no evidence or argument to say that this will not work any other attack either.

Toshiro's words matter a lot because they add further elaboration to what's going on that doesn't support what you're arguing for. His words do not support him having the ability to nullify powers, because he makes a general statement about matter. And yes this is spiritual matter, but it still acts like normal matter for the most part so that doesn't really change anything. There is no evidence, that's been provided here at least, that says what Toshiro did will work with any other attack either, so that also isn't good support for your argument.
 
My problem here is that the statement elaborates on the feat in a way that indicates that Toshiro himself does not possess powernull with his ice. Toshiro's statement makes it sound as if Rukia could freeze and then break Gerard's sword and also not suffer damage from it as well. The statement points to the idea that the sword can't function properly if it is frozen, which would not give Toshiro powernull with his matured bankai, but Gerard a weakness where his Hope can't function if his sword is frozen.



Toshiro's words matter a lot because they add further elaboration to what's going on that doesn't support what you're arguing for. His words do not support him having the ability to nullify powers, because he makes a general statement about matter. And yes this is spiritual matter, but it still acts like normal matter for the most part so that doesn't really change anything. There is no evidence, that's been provided here at least, that says what Toshiro did will work with any other attack either, so that also isn't good support for your argument.
I don't think the logic you use is definitely better. you say it's perfectly natural to ignore the causality manipulation with the damage reflecting ability sort of causality manipulation and normally freezing through. how come you look at the way the damage done to the sword is reflected on the opponent how come you are claiming that damage reflection is no longer functional because it is normally just covered in ice seriously I don't understand. It doesn't make any sense at all. Gerard wouldn't be surprised if any of the ice blocked his Hope ability anyway. Gerard thinks that when Toshiro cuts, he will split in two because that's how the ability works, to claim that such an ability doesn't work with just covering it with ice and an ordinary ice covering is totally against my logic. So why should a damage reflection be blocked by an ordinary ice, gerard's ability that creates the ability is ordinary we ice So he doesn't know that he's going to freeze with it? How is ice cream with ice different from cutting with a sword? should it work for one, not the other? It's much more head canon to think that Gerard's talent can be canceled with any ice, in my opinion, I am sure that the people here think like me, and if you say you disagree, there is still nothing we can do to convince you.
 
My problem here is that the statement elaborates on the feat in a way that indicates that Toshiro himself does not possess powernull with his ice. Toshiro's statement makes it sound as if Rukia could freeze and then break Gerard's sword and also not suffer damage from it as well. The statement points to the idea that the sword can't function properly if it is frozen, which would not give Toshiro powernull with his matured bankai, but Gerard a weakness where his Hope can't function if his sword is frozen.



Toshiro's words matter a lot because they add further elaboration to what's going on that doesn't support what you're arguing for. His words do not support him having the ability to nullify powers, because he makes a general statement about matter. And yes this is spiritual matter, but it still acts like normal matter for the most part so that doesn't really change anything. There is no evidence, that's been provided here at least, that says what Toshiro did will work with any other attack either, so that also isn't good support for your argument.
Again his words is just punch dialogue kinda thing

1. Hoffnung reflect damage we have feats for that.
2. Toshiro freezes it but before Toshiro make his punchline gerald says that damage would reflect it back.
3. Miracle can make impossible possible. Gerald broke out of Toshiro flash freeze because of that but later we see Toshiro completely freezes him and completely wipes out him with Byakuya attack. But he gets revived back with miracle. It just backs up his AE feats and probability manipulation thing.

Overall i am saying he did froze hoffnung and Powernulled it.

Also i am gonna give an example. Ger can revert attacks back to zero. So Toshiro flash freezes him and his abilities doesn't work what would you consider that as ?

It's pretty obvious we need to consider hoffnung reflecting damage and Toshiro power negating that.

One more thing Toshiro ain't the owner of Hoffnung.
Gerald literally states that freezing hoffnung would reflect it on him. Also that's not normal sword. Its an sword made up of people hope. Normal matter manipulation shouldn't work on it.
 
Again his words is just punch dialogue kinda thing

1. Hoffnung reflect damage we have feats for that.
2. Toshiro freezes it but before Toshiro make his punchline gerald says that damage would reflect it back.
3. Miracle can make impossible possible. Gerald broke out of Toshiro flash freeze because of that but later we see Toshiro completely freezes him and completely wipes out him with Byakuya attack. But he gets revived back with miracle. It just backs up his AE feats and probability manipulation thing.

Overall i am saying he did froze hoffnung and Powernulled it.

Also i am gonna give an example. Ger can revert attacks back to zero. So Toshiro flash freezes him and his abilities doesn't work what would you consider that as ?

It's pretty obvious we need to consider hoffnung reflecting damage and Toshiro power negating that.

One more thing Toshiro ain't the owner of Hoffnung.
Gerald literally states that freezing hoffnung would reflect it on him. Also that's not normal sword. Its an sword made up of people hope. Normal matter manipulation shouldn't work on it.
The power isn't even physically inside the Sword. The power is in the concept of hope given to it, so freezing it as a physical substance should not affect the concept, which is still hope.
 
The power isn't even physically inside the Sword. The power is in the concept of hope given to it, so freezing it as a physical substance should not affect the concept, which is still hope.
Yeah. Also Feats talks for themselves.

If this is not considered powernull i don't know what to consider powernull.
 
My problem here is that the statement elaborates on the feat in a way that indicates that Toshiro himself does not possess powernull with his ice. Toshiro's statement makes it sound as if Rukia could freeze and then break Gerard's sword and also not suffer damage from it as well. The statement points to the idea that the sword can't function properly if it is frozen, which would not give Toshiro powernull with his matured bankai, but Gerard a weakness where his Hope can't function if his sword is frozen.



Toshiro's words matter a lot because they add further elaboration to what's going on that doesn't support what you're arguing for. His words do not support him having the ability to nullify powers, because he makes a general statement about matter. And yes this is spiritual matter, but it still acts like normal matter for the most part so that doesn't really change anything. There is no evidence, that's been provided here at least, that says what Toshiro did will work with any other attack either, so that also isn't good support for your argument.
But the thing here is that Toshiro proceeds to cut it in half and we know from earlier that Kenpachi had damage reflected to him after cutting the sword. So the ice power nulled the sword since Toshiro cut clean through it without any problems being reflected and says that the hope has stopped working after he froze it. This also fits under the definition of power nullification that is used on VSbattles Wiki.

Or am I missing your point in this?
 
My problem here is that the statement elaborates on the feat in a way that indicates that Toshiro himself does not possess powernull with his ice. Toshiro's statement makes it sound as if Rukia could freeze and then break Gerard's sword and also not suffer damage from it as well. The statement points to the idea that the sword can't function properly if it is frozen, which would not give Toshiro powernull with his matured bankai, but Gerard a weakness where his Hope can't function if his sword is frozen.



Toshiro's words matter a lot because they add further elaboration to what's going on that doesn't support what you're arguing for. His words do not support him having the ability to nullify powers, because he makes a general statement about matter. And yes this is spiritual matter, but it still acts like normal matter for the most part so that doesn't really change anything. There is no evidence, that's been provided here at least, that says what Toshiro did will work with any other attack either, so that also isn't good support for your argument.
My problem with this interpretation makes the characters know something that they have no knowledge of and that was not mentioned by a character before Hitsugaya mocked Gerard's statement. It is flavory language.
 
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