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Chrono Revisions (Lavos, Dreams, AP)

Jinsye

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So the Chrono profiles are relics from an old era. Thus they’re bad, so there are a few misconceptions that have sprung up from them. So as a TLDR.
  • Lavos is getting toned down a bit in abilities
  • Chrono Trigger is getting toned the **** up in AP
  • Chrono Trigger gets a solid amount of resistances
  • Cross gets their AP downgraded.
  • Ultima also did things in this thread so shouts to him.
So…

Attack Potency Revisions​

First, we'll start with a downgrade. The Time Devourer, and by extension, the end-game Chrono Cross cast, shouldn't be fully 2-A. As stated in the game, the Time Devourer that we fight against isn't the one that will consume all timelines, since that will happen when it reaches its final evolution, when the bond between Lavos and Schala becomes complete, something that Belthasar happens to say will occur in the far-off future.


So it is a matter of what it will eventually be, rather than what it is at present, and this obviously extends to the Dream Devourer too, since it's just an even more immature stage of the Lavos-Schala fusion than the one we see in Chrono Cross, and so this scan also refers to something it will be able to do in the far future, and not at present. This makes sense, since, after all, if Lavos could swallow the entire multiverse from the start, there wouldn't be much of a plot (Though it's not like Cross' writing is very good at all in the first place)

Another thing that should get the stick is the Chrono Cross itself, which we currently tier at:

Low Complex Multiverse level with the Chrono Cross (Merged all universes into a higher-dimensional plane)

This comes from Schala's monologue at the end of the game, where she says that "time, which been divided, will be unified again", something that the current profiles interpret as the all infinite timelines being merged into one.

Okay, so, let's break this down: The Chrono Cross never merged "all universes." What it did was merge the two split timelines which the plot of the game revolves around, Home World (The timeline which Serge comes from) and Another World (A timeline where Serge died 10 years before the events of the game). This is what the game means when it mentions time being "divided," as seen in this scene, where Lavos refers to Opassa Beach, the spot where Serge died/almost died, as the exact spot in which the timeline was fractured.

Cool feat, but it's 2-C. As for the other part, I will assume this is based on Schala saying the universe will evolve into "the next dimension", but a quick look through that specific line of dialogue will tell you that this clearly doesn't refer to a higher dimension, nor to something the Chrono Cross does. Translating it into something that's not nonsensical rambling, it's just talking about how every planet in the universe is actually an egg with the potential to hatch and give birth to a new universe given specific circumstances.

Now, that aside, what will they be downgraded to? Well, to establish that, I need to explain a location in Cross called "the Dead Sea," which is relatively important to the plot halfway through the game. Basically, it's another plane of existence located inside of a temporal anomaly centered around the Sea of Eden in Home World, which is stated to be another spacetime, and to be a boundless world. More specifically, it is actually an entire time axis that was prevented from ever coming to be and then somehow brought back from nonexistence (Because Chrono Cross' plot makes no sense), condensed into the Dead Sea along with all the weird shit you'd expect from a place that shouldn't actually exist.

Why is this relevant? Well, because FATE, the game's temporary greater-scope villain, actually just blows the whole thing up, with Miguel specifically stating that the Dead Sea will be returned to the Darkness Beyond Time (Where all erased timelines go to die) for good measure, and later on, the Sky Dragon further hammers it home that the Dead Sea has, in fact, been disintegrated. Even later, Radius says the same thing.

Serge and crew defeat FATE singlehandedly, so, of course, they scale to the above, but there is more to it than that. To be specific, FATE is a supercomputer powered by the Frozen Flame, an artifact that acts as the superpowerful McGuffin that everyone in Chrono Cross wants to get their hands on, and a sizeable chunk of the plot actually revolves around her/him/it trying to regain access to it, after its connection was severed 14 years before the game's events. In fact, FATE only becomes able to destroy the Dead Sea after it regains access to the Flame, and beforehand, the place's very existence made it unable to directly interfere with anything in Home World, so much so that even installing Miguel as a watchman over it was noted to be something FATE did with a lot of difficulty.

And the Frozen Flame is, in turn, a fragment of Lavos, and whoever binds with it is also bound to Lavos himself, so the Time Devourer naturally scales to it as well. However, this specific bit has some very funny implications, because the Frozen Flame is actually a fragment of Lavos from back when he was just a spawn, split away from his shell when he first made landfall, and which the Kingdom of Zeal is implied to have used to power their civilization in antiquity.

Currently, to avoid alleged inconsistencies, it is apparently assumed that the Frozen Flame evolved alongside Lavos himself when he became the Dream Devourer and then the Time Devourer. The issue with this, though, is that it's never actually stated anywhere, and there is likewise no implication that this happened beyond the Time Devourer being able to use the Frozen Flame to interface with reality from the Darkness Beyond Time. However, it is still a fragment of Lavos, who still exists and is laying dormant in the Earth's core in Home World during Chrono Cross (Since Serge's nature apparently makes it so the Day of Lavos happens anyway, for some unexplained reason), and he likewise is still very much connected to, and has power over it, so the whole thing is unfounded in the first place.

And that's not to mention how the Frozen Flame -is- being used to scale Base Lavos, but just his range, for some reason, so it seems even the profiles themselves don't commit to the aforementioned assumption that much. As for the inconsistencies mentioned before: They don't really exist, since the only thing that might be taken to be one is the fact Lavos, throughout Chrono Trigger, is very much a planetary threat, and grows stronger by feeding on the planet's lifeforce. Come Chrono Cross, though, and it turns out that the planet's lifeforce (Embodied in a being known as the Dragon God) is something not even FATE was able to directly control, which forced it to use the Frozen Flame to split the Dragon God into six weaker entities that were easier to manage.

So it seems the planet itself is a container of Low 2-C power, which actually makes sense, since, as mentioned before, planets are actually the eggs from which whole universes can be born in the Chrono setting.

Also, the Frozen Flame's power is compared to the Big Bang at one point, when all your party members are staring it down and gawking at how powerful it is. This statement may or may not be valid as anything but very loose supporting evidence, if that, but I thought it'd be good to include it here, just to cover all bases.

The second, notably less solid, piece of evidence for Low 2-C is with Lynx, for-a-while the main antagonist of the game, who has a special attack called "Forever Zero." Its description is "All things become eternal nothingness", and the attack animation is the battlefield being transformed into a starry background, which gets compressed and then fades away entirely. Given the usage of "all things" here, and how "nothingness" in the context of Chrono is the Darkness Beyond Time, where all timelines go when they are erased, it seems the attack itself is supposed to be Lynx destroying an alternate universe, and the current profiles certainly seem to accept it as such. It is not as solid as FATE's feat of destroying the Dead Sea, but I'll leave it here, regardless, as potential second evidence.

If we accept Forever Zero as enough for Low 2-C, then FATE upscales to it, since Lynx himself is just a part of FATE; He is a biological avatar that it uses to physically operate outside of Chronopolis due to no longer having as much influence without the Frozen Flame. So whatever power he has was given to him by, and comes from the computer.

So the consequences of this is that the entire cast of Chrono Trigger is now to be scaled to Low 2-C. As it were, the scaling chain goes more or less like:

Lynx << FATE (Full Power) ≤ Dragon God << Frozen Flame << Immature Lavos << Matured Lavos (Outer Shell < Body < Core) <<< Dream Devourer << Time Devourer.


Dream Revisions​

We currently rate Dreams as type 1 conceptual manipulation, which probably isn’t true. The proof we use is Schala's speech at the end of Chrono Cross. Unfortunately, this doesn’t really lead to the idea that dreams are necessarily concepts. As said above, a rough translation of the speech into layman’s terms is that any single person in the world can become the chosen one who will birth a new universe, which is why everyone is dreaming. The planets act as vessels in which a new universe can be born. It’s akin to reproduction, where the planet (which is alive) is an egg and the organisms dreaming are the sperm shooting in until it meets with the egg and impregnates it.

Statements taken from this speech such as ‘The words that become deleted… the thoughts that become buried” don’t refer to Dreams making up the Darkness Beyond Time either. They’re simply Schala wondering why the world is so cruel. The speech is very vague and probably can’t be used for too much other than as supporting evidence.

There's also this statement which was taken wholly out of context. It’s flowery language specifically talking about the fact that the cast saw clones of themselves before fighting Zeal. The clones were shown as defeated by Zeal, thus in the future they are dreams that never will come to be. ‘Destiny in its essential form’ doesn’t mean anything as it just means the future here.

However, while it might not be conceptual manipulation, it is still some decent hax in the form of Subjective Reality. This is due to the fact that Lavos is directly stated to be able to consume dreams, thoughts, and memories. All of which make up reality, due to various implications throughout both Cross and Trigger..
From these pieces of evidence, it is safe to presume that dreams, thoughts, and memories are indeed abstractions that comprise all of reality but it does not fall under the universal concepts that we consider for conceptual manipulation. Reality doesn’t ‘participate’ in these concepts so to speak

Thus, it will be simply broken into Reality Warping, Subjective Reality, Dream Manipulation, Memory Manipulation, and Mind Manipulation.

New Profiles​

This is Lavos' new profile. Serge will be getting a new profile in due time, but there are a few notable changes.
  • Lavos’ whole alternate self summoning only applies to his pods. Not himself. If you attack the main Lavos then he will die. It’s not the end of this idea though, as due to Lavos’ nonlinear view of time he is capable of acting from the past after he sees what happens to his present self.
  • Lavos gets every ability in the verse. It is noted that he has all of Earth's life (and robots too?) within him. He also absorbed the Dragon God as the Time Devourer, thus granting him the use of every element as the Dragon God is the embodiment of the Earth.
  • Lavos gains the ability to manipulate dreams in his base form. One of his attacks is called ‘Dreamreaver’ and is it's noted that his power is capable of bringing beings of dreams into existence.
  • Dream Devourer Lavos and stronger get Beyond-Dimensional Existence Type 1. He currently lacks space and time due to the fact that the Darkness Beyond Time is where timelines which are overwritten go to rot in nonexistence. Thus, he would lack both space and time.
  • Lavos’ type 9 Immortality is actually explained, woo.
  • Lavos’ NEP gets updated to Type 1; Aspect Types 1, 3, and 5. As per usual, no mind or soul exists in the Darkness Beyond Time. It’s also been decided that dreams do not encompass the DBT as it is not reality so to speak. This means Lavos would lack a fundamental part of reality as well, thus type 5.
  • Lavos may or may not get High-Godly. Marle states that it is going to return from the Darkness Beyond Time. This would be High-Godly regeneration as it lacks time and other fundamental aspects of reality such as dreams.
  • Speed is weird. We can stick with the low-end but higher-end interpretations are possible. One can argue infinite due to Lavos devouring an infinite amount of space-time.

Conclusion​

Chrono pages bad. Fix them.
 
I agree to everything except the Lynx part, don't think their is close to enough evidence to reach even a Possibly for that conclusion.

I'm also struggling to decide if the evidence is enough for at least a Possibly for High-Godly. I understand the logic, but I think the return is just as likely to be it just returning while still non-existent. So I don't know if simply a return from non-existence without mention of regenerating it's existence is enough for a Possibly High-Godly.
 
I agree with the AP changes (I brought all of that up in the first place), but looking through the reasoning for removing Conceptual Manipulation, I find it a bit lacking.

As far as we can ascertain, Schala talking about how all life exists within a dream isn't directly linked to the process of universes being born out of the egg-planets. In fact, the events of the series being "the dream of the planet" is stated elsewhere, and given the things you've shown about what Dreams in Chrono are, we can take this as literal.

Moreover I also disagree with saying reality doesn't participate in Dreams. That NPC in Zeal saying that beings born of dreams will eventually return to dreams is very much in line with how Schala says -all- dreams will eventually return to Zurvan, including the dream of life in which living beings exist. Further than that, we also know they exist independently from the physical world, since the Sea of Dreams itself is where time originates, and where it ends, and Kid sees all realities overlapped in the form of dreams while floating in there, not to mention how Schala says everything in nature is a dream the planet is having even before its birth.

So, it's fairly obvious that reality itself is derived from dreams, instead of the two being on equal ground.

Also, "dreamland" is omnipresent, apparently, and Turnip implies Serge, too, will return there one day. Mostly just a funny detail, but it does serve as more evidence that everything is derived from Zurvan, and not just the dream creatures.

Though, for the matter, I do agree that Queen Zeal's gloating doesn't have anything to do with the above. The Darkness Beyond Time being manifested from dreams like the rest of existence is also pretty unfounded, as far as I see, so I agree with that part too.

I'm also struggling to decide if the evidence is enough for at least a Possibly for High-Godly. I understand the logic, but I think the return is just as likely to be it just returning while still non-existent.
Marle does say that the Time Devourer will be "born" on the planet, so I find that a bit unlikely, myself. That phrasing makes it sound like more than just it traveling from the DBT to the physical world.
 
The AP changes are the easy part. I do agree with em. Though I always thought Lavos came from the far future where he was at full power to fight Serge. Turns out I was wrong.
Everything else I’m less than certain on. Not because I have tinges of disagreement, but because I’m uneducated enough to really grasp it. You do have a point on CT having a significant portion of flowery language. Ultimately I’ll side with Ultima for the time being.
 
Bump

current status is - AP changes good, Dreams probably need a bit more discussion
 
Current standings

AP good, Dreams should be conceptual manipulation - 3 (Ultima, Cal, Shadow)

AP good, dreams shouldn't be conceptual manipulation - 1 (Everything)
 
@Ultima_Reality

I can agree with Dreams being a fundamental part of reality, the CRT itself proposes that, but I don't see how it necessarily translates into concept hax myself.

I agree with all the rest.
 
Current standings

AP good, Dreams should be conceptual manipulation - 3 (Ultima, Cal, Shadow)

AP good, dreams shouldn't be conceptual manipulation - 2 (Everything, Crimson)
 
i can agree with dreams being a fundamental part of reality, the crt itself proposes that, but i don't see how it necessarily translates into concept hax myself.
Conceptual Manipulation as a power just boils down to "Is able to manipulate some abstract essence that defines and governs some aspect of physical reality and can thus enact changes in the latter as a result," and Type 1 just adds the requirement that this essence must also exist independently from the physical world. Both of those are things that Dreams in Chrono very much fit the bill for. So, manipulating them is either Conceptual Manipulation or something that in the end is functionally identical.

By the way, something that I also wanted to bring up is that, currently, we seem to go with the idea that Lavos can just perceive the entire multiverse simultaneously, and this comes from this scene in Radical Dreamers, which we chalk up to Kid linking with the Frozen Flame and getting to see what the world looks like through Lavos' eyes. Yeah, so, this is wrong: What happened is that the Chrono Trigger was shattered and she was swallowed into a dimensional vortex, and then she lingered in Zurvan for a bit before waking up in a reality. Nothing really indicates that all of this happens because she linked with the Flame, or whatever else.

That said, there are still indications that Lavos can perceive alternate timelines, anyway. For instance, the Dream Devourer in the Ultimania guide is implied to be a Lavos from an alternate timeline that also got sent to the Darkness Beyond Time and fused with another Schala in there:




And yet, it creates a gate for the party in the primary timeline we're familiar with anyway.

Also, the original version of the scene has Magus repeat what Marle said in Chrono Cross, that is, that Lavos is trying to be "born" in the physical world from the bottom of the Darkness Beyond Time. So, it seems like the point was that the thing has been trying to exist again since it first merged with Schala, and by Chrono Cross, it was about to succeed on that.
 
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So the consequences of this is that the entire cast of Chrono Trigger is now to be scaled to Low 2-C
This would be a new key? Because I doubt Magus is Low 2-C at the mid game or normal Lavos is throwing nukes at the planet while being low 2-C

Can´t say anything about Chrono Cross, only Trigger, so this is my only question
 
Conceptual Manipulation as a power just boils down to "Is able to manipulate some abstract essence that defines and governs some aspect of physical reality and can thus enact changes in the latter as a result," and Type 1 just adds the requirement that this essence must also exist independently from the physical world. Both of those are things that Dreams in Chrono very much fit the bill for. So, manipulating them is either Conceptual Manipulation or something that in the end is functionally identical.
Makes sense, I suppose.
 
This would be a new key? Because I doubt Magus is Low 2-C at the mid game or normal Lavos is throwing nukes at the planet while being low 2-C
Lavos would be Low 2-C in all forms. It's not a new key. In order to kill the planet, he needs to kill a Low 2-C being, so Cross kind of makes it make sense in that regard

Crono and co. could probably have different keys since they do have a power progression. We have feats such as Frog slicing the mountain and also the Mammon Machine lifting up Zeal.
 
This would be a new key? Because I doubt Magus is Low 2-C at the mid game or normal Lavos is throwing nukes at the planet while being low 2-C

Can´t say anything about Chrono Cross, only Trigger, so this is my only question
Of note, to avoid future headaches: Lavos only razing the planet's surface despite being logically capable of far more is pretty in-line with the behavior of his species as described in the game. He needs breeding ground for his children to grow before they can take off into space and search for other planets to feed from, so destroying the whole planet would run counter to his prime objective.

The mid-game is a slightly weirder case. Radical Dreamers heavily implies that the Frozen Flame was what powered the Kingdom of Zeal in Antiquity, and that it thus is what the Mammon Machine was channeling the whole time before the Queen set her eyes in extracting power directly from Lavos. With that said, we know that Schala was the only one in Zeal with enough magical power to regulate the energy extracted by the machine, and that Magus had actually already surpassed her in that department even when he was a kid, so, arguably, you can scale them to the Frozen Flame, yeah.

That, or they can be scaled to Zeal's landmass being lifted up in the air. We currently attribute this feat to Lavos, and while that's technically correct, it was more specifically done by the Mammon Machine channeling a tiny portion of his power, so Schala being able to administer the thing and even raise its power output to the limit could mean she scales to it.
 
Not the most knowledgeable on Chrono, but Ultima makes sense from what I can gather.
 
Why do you literally bump twice a day child.

I do think the Low 2-C reasoning just seems a lot of kinda mediocre evidence at once. But I suppose that's enough. Maye.

Otherwise, it seems fine enough.
 
oopsie forgot to comment but yea i pretty much agree with ultima
edit: i am doing this out of my own free will there's no gun being pointed at my head rn
 
Final thing to note

The Chrono Trigger cast should probably have resistance to most of Lavos' abilities (at least his time/space/dream shit). Lavos saw the future and decided that he couldn't really defeat them despite his abilities, which resulted in him making a backup plan that would make him come back as the Dream Devourer instead.

Also, the Trigger cast can survive Lavos using attacks such as Dreamreaver and Lavos literally eating their dreams and whatnot on them.
 
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We've determined that there's enough support to push through on this revision

Especially since nobody else is respondini
 
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