Jinsye
She/Her- 10,463
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So the Chrono profiles are relics from an old era. Thus they’re bad, so there are a few misconceptions that have sprung up from them. So as a TLDR.
So it is a matter of what it will eventually be, rather than what it is at present, and this obviously extends to the Dream Devourer too, since it's just an even more immature stage of the Lavos-Schala fusion than the one we see in Chrono Cross, and so this scan also refers to something it will be able to do in the far future, and not at present. This makes sense, since, after all, if Lavos could swallow the entire multiverse from the start, there wouldn't be much of a plot (Though it's not like Cross' writing is very good at all in the first place)
Another thing that should get the stick is the Chrono Cross itself, which we currently tier at:
This comes from Schala's monologue at the end of the game, where she says that "time, which been divided, will be unified again", something that the current profiles interpret as the all infinite timelines being merged into one.
Okay, so, let's break this down: The Chrono Cross never merged "all universes." What it did was merge the two split timelines which the plot of the game revolves around, Home World (The timeline which Serge comes from) and Another World (A timeline where Serge died 10 years before the events of the game). This is what the game means when it mentions time being "divided," as seen in this scene, where Lavos refers to Opassa Beach, the spot where Serge died/almost died, as the exact spot in which the timeline was fractured.
Cool feat, but it's 2-C. As for the other part, I will assume this is based on Schala saying the universe will evolve into "the next dimension", but a quick look through that specific line of dialogue will tell you that this clearly doesn't refer to a higher dimension, nor to something the Chrono Cross does. Translating it into something that's not nonsensical rambling, it's just talking about how every planet in the universe is actually an egg with the potential to hatch and give birth to a new universe given specific circumstances.
Now, that aside, what will they be downgraded to? Well, to establish that, I need to explain a location in Cross called "the Dead Sea," which is relatively important to the plot halfway through the game. Basically, it's another plane of existence located inside of a temporal anomaly centered around the Sea of Eden in Home World, which is stated to be another spacetime, and to be a boundless world. More specifically, it is actually an entire time axis that was prevented from ever coming to be and then somehow brought back from nonexistence (Because Chrono Cross' plot makes no sense), condensed into the Dead Sea along with all the weird shit you'd expect from a place that shouldn't actually exist.
Why is this relevant? Well, because FATE, the game's temporary greater-scope villain, actually just blows the whole thing up, with Miguel specifically stating that the Dead Sea will be returned to the Darkness Beyond Time (Where all erased timelines go to die) for good measure, and later on, the Sky Dragon further hammers it home that the Dead Sea has, in fact, been disintegrated. Even later, Radius says the same thing.
Serge and crew defeat FATE singlehandedly, so, of course, they scale to the above, but there is more to it than that. To be specific, FATE is a supercomputer powered by the Frozen Flame, an artifact that acts as the superpowerful McGuffin that everyone in Chrono Cross wants to get their hands on, and a sizeable chunk of the plot actually revolves around her/him/it trying to regain access to it, after its connection was severed 14 years before the game's events. In fact, FATE only becomes able to destroy the Dead Sea after it regains access to the Flame, and beforehand, the place's very existence made it unable to directly interfere with anything in Home World, so much so that even installing Miguel as a watchman over it was noted to be something FATE did with a lot of difficulty.
And the Frozen Flame is, in turn, a fragment of Lavos, and whoever binds with it is also bound to Lavos himself, so the Time Devourer naturally scales to it as well. However, this specific bit has some very funny implications, because the Frozen Flame is actually a fragment of Lavos from back when he was just a spawn, split away from his shell when he first made landfall, and which the Kingdom of Zeal is implied to have used to power their civilization in antiquity.
Currently, to avoid alleged inconsistencies, it is apparently assumed that the Frozen Flame evolved alongside Lavos himself when he became the Dream Devourer and then the Time Devourer. The issue with this, though, is that it's never actually stated anywhere, and there is likewise no implication that this happened beyond the Time Devourer being able to use the Frozen Flame to interface with reality from the Darkness Beyond Time. However, it is still a fragment of Lavos, who still exists and is laying dormant in the Earth's core in Home World during Chrono Cross (Since Serge's nature apparently makes it so the Day of Lavos happens anyway, for some unexplained reason), and he likewise is still very much connected to, and has power over it, so the whole thing is unfounded in the first place.
And that's not to mention how the Frozen Flame -is- being used to scale Base Lavos, but just his range, for some reason, so it seems even the profiles themselves don't commit to the aforementioned assumption that much. As for the inconsistencies mentioned before: They don't really exist, since the only thing that might be taken to be one is the fact Lavos, throughout Chrono Trigger, is very much a planetary threat, and grows stronger by feeding on the planet's lifeforce. Come Chrono Cross, though, and it turns out that the planet's lifeforce (Embodied in a being known as the Dragon God) is something not even FATE was able to directly control, which forced it to use the Frozen Flame to split the Dragon God into six weaker entities that were easier to manage.
So it seems the planet itself is a container of Low 2-C power, which actually makes sense, since, as mentioned before, planets are actually the eggs from which whole universes can be born in the Chrono setting.
Also, the Frozen Flame's power is compared to the Big Bang at one point, when all your party members are staring it down and gawking at how powerful it is. This statement may or may not be valid as anything but very loose supporting evidence, if that, but I thought it'd be good to include it here, just to cover all bases.
The second, notably less solid, piece of evidence for Low 2-C is with Lynx, for-a-while the main antagonist of the game, who has a special attack called "Forever Zero." Its description is "All things become eternal nothingness", and the attack animation is the battlefield being transformed into a starry background, which gets compressed and then fades away entirely. Given the usage of "all things" here, and how "nothingness" in the context of Chrono is the Darkness Beyond Time, where all timelines go when they are erased, it seems the attack itself is supposed to be Lynx destroying an alternate universe, and the current profiles certainly seem to accept it as such. It is not as solid as FATE's feat of destroying the Dead Sea, but I'll leave it here, regardless, as potential second evidence.
If we accept Forever Zero as enough for Low 2-C, then FATE upscales to it, since Lynx himself is just a part of FATE; He is a biological avatar that it uses to physically operate outside of Chronopolis due to no longer having as much influence without the Frozen Flame. So whatever power he has was given to him by, and comes from the computer.
So the consequences of this is that the entire cast of Chrono Trigger is now to be scaled to Low 2-C. As it were, the scaling chain goes more or less like:
Lynx << FATE (Full Power) ≤ Dragon God << Frozen Flame << Immature Lavos << Matured Lavos (Outer Shell < Body < Core) <<< Dream Devourer << Time Devourer.
Statements taken from this speech such as ‘The words that become deleted… the thoughts that become buried” don’t refer to Dreams making up the Darkness Beyond Time either. They’re simply Schala wondering why the world is so cruel. The speech is very vague and probably can’t be used for too much other than as supporting evidence.
There's also this statement which was taken wholly out of context. It’s flowery language specifically talking about the fact that the cast saw clones of themselves before fighting Zeal. The clones were shown as defeated by Zeal, thus in the future they are dreams that never will come to be. ‘Destiny in its essential form’ doesn’t mean anything as it just means the future here.
However, while it might not be conceptual manipulation, it is still some decent hax in the form of Subjective Reality. This is due to the fact that Lavos is directly stated to be able to consume dreams, thoughts, and memories. All of which make up reality, due to various implications throughout both Cross and Trigger..
Thus, it will be simply broken into Reality Warping, Subjective Reality, Dream Manipulation, Memory Manipulation, and Mind Manipulation.
- Lavos is getting toned down a bit in abilities
- Chrono Trigger is getting toned the **** up in AP
- Chrono Trigger gets a solid amount of resistances
- Cross gets their AP downgraded.
- Ultima also did things in this thread so shouts to him.
Attack Potency Revisions
First, we'll start with a downgrade. The Time Devourer, and by extension, the end-game Chrono Cross cast, shouldn't be fully 2-A. As stated in the game, the Time Devourer that we fight against isn't the one that will consume all timelines, since that will happen when it reaches its final evolution, when the bond between Lavos and Schala becomes complete, something that Belthasar happens to say will occur in the far-off future.So it is a matter of what it will eventually be, rather than what it is at present, and this obviously extends to the Dream Devourer too, since it's just an even more immature stage of the Lavos-Schala fusion than the one we see in Chrono Cross, and so this scan also refers to something it will be able to do in the far future, and not at present. This makes sense, since, after all, if Lavos could swallow the entire multiverse from the start, there wouldn't be much of a plot (Though it's not like Cross' writing is very good at all in the first place)
Another thing that should get the stick is the Chrono Cross itself, which we currently tier at:
This comes from Schala's monologue at the end of the game, where she says that "time, which been divided, will be unified again", something that the current profiles interpret as the all infinite timelines being merged into one.
Okay, so, let's break this down: The Chrono Cross never merged "all universes." What it did was merge the two split timelines which the plot of the game revolves around, Home World (The timeline which Serge comes from) and Another World (A timeline where Serge died 10 years before the events of the game). This is what the game means when it mentions time being "divided," as seen in this scene, where Lavos refers to Opassa Beach, the spot where Serge died/almost died, as the exact spot in which the timeline was fractured.
Cool feat, but it's 2-C. As for the other part, I will assume this is based on Schala saying the universe will evolve into "the next dimension", but a quick look through that specific line of dialogue will tell you that this clearly doesn't refer to a higher dimension, nor to something the Chrono Cross does. Translating it into something that's not nonsensical rambling, it's just talking about how every planet in the universe is actually an egg with the potential to hatch and give birth to a new universe given specific circumstances.
Now, that aside, what will they be downgraded to? Well, to establish that, I need to explain a location in Cross called "the Dead Sea," which is relatively important to the plot halfway through the game. Basically, it's another plane of existence located inside of a temporal anomaly centered around the Sea of Eden in Home World, which is stated to be another spacetime, and to be a boundless world. More specifically, it is actually an entire time axis that was prevented from ever coming to be and then somehow brought back from nonexistence (Because Chrono Cross' plot makes no sense), condensed into the Dead Sea along with all the weird shit you'd expect from a place that shouldn't actually exist.
Why is this relevant? Well, because FATE, the game's temporary greater-scope villain, actually just blows the whole thing up, with Miguel specifically stating that the Dead Sea will be returned to the Darkness Beyond Time (Where all erased timelines go to die) for good measure, and later on, the Sky Dragon further hammers it home that the Dead Sea has, in fact, been disintegrated. Even later, Radius says the same thing.
Serge and crew defeat FATE singlehandedly, so, of course, they scale to the above, but there is more to it than that. To be specific, FATE is a supercomputer powered by the Frozen Flame, an artifact that acts as the superpowerful McGuffin that everyone in Chrono Cross wants to get their hands on, and a sizeable chunk of the plot actually revolves around her/him/it trying to regain access to it, after its connection was severed 14 years before the game's events. In fact, FATE only becomes able to destroy the Dead Sea after it regains access to the Flame, and beforehand, the place's very existence made it unable to directly interfere with anything in Home World, so much so that even installing Miguel as a watchman over it was noted to be something FATE did with a lot of difficulty.
And the Frozen Flame is, in turn, a fragment of Lavos, and whoever binds with it is also bound to Lavos himself, so the Time Devourer naturally scales to it as well. However, this specific bit has some very funny implications, because the Frozen Flame is actually a fragment of Lavos from back when he was just a spawn, split away from his shell when he first made landfall, and which the Kingdom of Zeal is implied to have used to power their civilization in antiquity.
Currently, to avoid alleged inconsistencies, it is apparently assumed that the Frozen Flame evolved alongside Lavos himself when he became the Dream Devourer and then the Time Devourer. The issue with this, though, is that it's never actually stated anywhere, and there is likewise no implication that this happened beyond the Time Devourer being able to use the Frozen Flame to interface with reality from the Darkness Beyond Time. However, it is still a fragment of Lavos, who still exists and is laying dormant in the Earth's core in Home World during Chrono Cross (Since Serge's nature apparently makes it so the Day of Lavos happens anyway, for some unexplained reason), and he likewise is still very much connected to, and has power over it, so the whole thing is unfounded in the first place.
And that's not to mention how the Frozen Flame -is- being used to scale Base Lavos, but just his range, for some reason, so it seems even the profiles themselves don't commit to the aforementioned assumption that much. As for the inconsistencies mentioned before: They don't really exist, since the only thing that might be taken to be one is the fact Lavos, throughout Chrono Trigger, is very much a planetary threat, and grows stronger by feeding on the planet's lifeforce. Come Chrono Cross, though, and it turns out that the planet's lifeforce (Embodied in a being known as the Dragon God) is something not even FATE was able to directly control, which forced it to use the Frozen Flame to split the Dragon God into six weaker entities that were easier to manage.
So it seems the planet itself is a container of Low 2-C power, which actually makes sense, since, as mentioned before, planets are actually the eggs from which whole universes can be born in the Chrono setting.
Also, the Frozen Flame's power is compared to the Big Bang at one point, when all your party members are staring it down and gawking at how powerful it is. This statement may or may not be valid as anything but very loose supporting evidence, if that, but I thought it'd be good to include it here, just to cover all bases.
The second, notably less solid, piece of evidence for Low 2-C is with Lynx, for-a-while the main antagonist of the game, who has a special attack called "Forever Zero." Its description is "All things become eternal nothingness", and the attack animation is the battlefield being transformed into a starry background, which gets compressed and then fades away entirely. Given the usage of "all things" here, and how "nothingness" in the context of Chrono is the Darkness Beyond Time, where all timelines go when they are erased, it seems the attack itself is supposed to be Lynx destroying an alternate universe, and the current profiles certainly seem to accept it as such. It is not as solid as FATE's feat of destroying the Dead Sea, but I'll leave it here, regardless, as potential second evidence.
If we accept Forever Zero as enough for Low 2-C, then FATE upscales to it, since Lynx himself is just a part of FATE; He is a biological avatar that it uses to physically operate outside of Chronopolis due to no longer having as much influence without the Frozen Flame. So whatever power he has was given to him by, and comes from the computer.
So the consequences of this is that the entire cast of Chrono Trigger is now to be scaled to Low 2-C. As it were, the scaling chain goes more or less like:
Lynx << FATE (Full Power) ≤ Dragon God << Frozen Flame << Immature Lavos << Matured Lavos (Outer Shell < Body < Core) <<< Dream Devourer << Time Devourer.
Dream Revisions
We currently rate Dreams as type 1 conceptual manipulation, which probably isn’t true. The proof we use is Schala's speech at the end of Chrono Cross. Unfortunately, this doesn’t really lead to the idea that dreams are necessarily concepts. As said above, a rough translation of the speech into layman’s terms is that any single person in the world can become the chosen one who will birth a new universe, which is why everyone is dreaming. The planets act as vessels in which a new universe can be born. It’s akin to reproduction, where the planet (which is alive) is an egg and the organisms dreaming are the sperm shooting in until it meets with the egg and impregnates it.Statements taken from this speech such as ‘The words that become deleted… the thoughts that become buried” don’t refer to Dreams making up the Darkness Beyond Time either. They’re simply Schala wondering why the world is so cruel. The speech is very vague and probably can’t be used for too much other than as supporting evidence.
There's also this statement which was taken wholly out of context. It’s flowery language specifically talking about the fact that the cast saw clones of themselves before fighting Zeal. The clones were shown as defeated by Zeal, thus in the future they are dreams that never will come to be. ‘Destiny in its essential form’ doesn’t mean anything as it just means the future here.
However, while it might not be conceptual manipulation, it is still some decent hax in the form of Subjective Reality. This is due to the fact that Lavos is directly stated to be able to consume dreams, thoughts, and memories. All of which make up reality, due to various implications throughout both Cross and Trigger..
- Lavos’ entire schtick is eating dreams, thoughts, and memories. It was also going to devour all of existence, so you can connect the two together easily.
- One of the dreamers in the City of Dreams says reality and the universe exists in dreams.
- In Radical Dreamers, we get to see a glimpse of the Sea of Dreams that Schala mentions at the end of Cross. It is noted to be a place where time begins and ends. Where one can see countless incarnations of themselves and infinite dreams existing. This is where all dreams return to and end at.
- It is noted that the world is stabilized by observations. The world which one sees may be entirely different from another person’s perspective. There are as many worlds as there are observers. Thus, the world is affected by human perception and thoughts.
Thus, it will be simply broken into Reality Warping, Subjective Reality, Dream Manipulation, Memory Manipulation, and Mind Manipulation.
New Profiles
This is Lavos' new profile. Serge will be getting a new profile in due time, but there are a few notable changes.- Lavos’ whole alternate self summoning only applies to his pods. Not himself. If you attack the main Lavos then he will die. It’s not the end of this idea though, as due to Lavos’ nonlinear view of time he is capable of acting from the past after he sees what happens to his present self.
- Lavos gets every ability in the verse. It is noted that he has all of Earth's life (and robots too?) within him. He also absorbed the Dragon God as the Time Devourer, thus granting him the use of every element as the Dragon God is the embodiment of the Earth.
- Lavos gains the ability to manipulate dreams in his base form. One of his attacks is called ‘Dreamreaver’ and is it's noted that his power is capable of bringing beings of dreams into existence.
- Dream Devourer Lavos and stronger get Beyond-Dimensional Existence Type 1. He currently lacks space and time due to the fact that the Darkness Beyond Time is where timelines which are overwritten go to rot in nonexistence. Thus, he would lack both space and time.
- Lavos’ type 9 Immortality is actually explained, woo.
- Lavos’ NEP gets updated to Type 1; Aspect Types 1, 3, and 5. As per usual, no mind or soul exists in the Darkness Beyond Time. It’s also been decided that dreams do not encompass the DBT as it is not reality so to speak. This means Lavos would lack a fundamental part of reality as well, thus type 5.
- Lavos may or may not get High-Godly. Marle states that it is going to return from the Darkness Beyond Time. This would be High-Godly regeneration as it lacks time and other fundamental aspects of reality such as dreams.
- Speed is weird. We can stick with the low-end but higher-end interpretations are possible. One can argue infinite due to Lavos devouring an infinite amount of space-time.
