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Bleach God Tiers for real this time

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Damage3245 said:
The Soul King doesn't seem to actively maintain the existence of the Garganta
Click to expand...
yhwach said everything connected would collapse its supported by ganjus statement and we know without rei o everything would go back to how things were and its accepted rei o created garganta
 
It is outlier with the preconception that people have on HST in general, things like "they can be that strong", no one really scale to Yhwach or Ichigo at that point of the manga, author also does not really think about those stuffs of huge scaling jump like us, especially kubo; if you would probably ask him if Yhwach can destroy an universe he would answer yes since it is also hinted in the novel, beside that, I want to point out that word like "possibly" also exits.

I will just follow for now, either way, regardless Yhwach and Ichigo issues, given the cosmology and the fact that more than 2 dimensions have different materials, spiritual and physicals, and that at the beggining just a formless void existed, Reio rating should be Universal or higher.
 
It's one of the thing i don't really understand, how a giant menos that composed from hollow that eat human had enough reishi from destroying his body to create what we talk about being possibly at least an universe (soul society)...
 
Regidian said:
It's one of the thing i don't really understand, how a giant menos that composed from hollow that eat human had enough reishi from destroying his body to create what we talk about being possibly at least an universe (soul society)...
Click to expand...
Someone like Grimmjow has over 100,000,000 souls within his body. So it makes sense.
 
Regidian said:
It's one of the thing i don't really understand, how a giant menos that composed from hollow that eat human had enough reishi from destroying his body to create what we talk about being possibly at least an universe (soul society)...
Click to expand...
hollows are made from tens of thousands to hundreds of millions of souls and i would say billions for the top of the top
 
TOAAPRESENCE1 said:
hollows are made from tens of thousands to hundreds of millions of souls and i would say billions for the top of the top
Click to expand...
Yep surely but even if we combined all of them, with what we have see of what they can do with that number, i don't think it's will be enough
 
Regidian said:
Yep surely but even if we combined all of them, with what we have see of what they can do with that number, i don't think it's will be enough
Click to expand...
we dont exactly know how big he was so not much to go from we just know that he was big enough that his corps serves as a planet
 
Regidian said:
It's one of the thing i don't really understand, how a giant menos that composed from hollow that eat human had enough reishi from destroying his body to create what we talk about being possibly at least an universe (soul society)...
Click to expand...
iirc the menos was used to make heuco mundos desert not ss
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Didn't Reishi emerge naturally with the original Hollow and the Soul King killed him?
Click to expand...
Hollows existed before the Menos and so did souls. Ichibei was present when the Soul King arrived. Turning the Menos into the sands of Hueco Mundo was told afterwards. And then he created the Soul Society and the world of the living last.
 
Wouldn't this mean that Orihime has Tier 2 Shields? That's kinda silly
 
So something I thought of

Ichigo was considered a soul king candidate in order to sustain the cosmology yet he has no hacks so it would probably be off of pure spiritual energy.

And ywhach's corpse can sustain the cosmology despite being dead so he can't be using the Almighty
 
Small question, but isn't the MoN movie useful here as it basically shows a diagram (?) of SS and WotL in the Garganta and stuff?
GY0PM1W.png
 
If the Old World was the “universe”. The Menos Grande that the Soul King turned into the sands of Hueco Mundo is that big? Is stated that his mere size put the old world in “stillness” and couldn’t move. This would validate the databook statement that Hueco Mundo’s desert is infinite in size. Since the grains of sands were once the particles of this same Menos Grande.
 
Technically, from the PoV on someone on HM, the desert would be endless if the entire planet is just a big desert.
 
Alright. So after skimming through the sandbox and keeping up with this thread so far, finally time to bring in my own thoughts here. Topics that are of concern to me, but will not be discussed in this comment, are the points relating to Muken, "names", and the size of the realms.

-The OP himself has admitted Muken has little, if anything, to do with this upgrade and isn't looking to discuss it right now
-Matt and others have already pointed out concerns with Muken, translations, and otherwise much better than I could have
-The size of the realms themselves are still an on-going debate that nothing I say right now would weigh in new things

Overall, these topics are already the center of attention from both sides, and at the moment, I have nothing to add in that hasn't already been pointed out. So I will not be touching them right now. Instead, what I am particularly focused on discussing is something from the proposal that has not been discussed yet. And that would be The Reversing of the Soul Cycle. Aka, Yhwach's feat of destroying the worlds. So lets get into breaking this down.

Feat: The Reversing of the Soul Cycle​


Before I get into explaining the concerns I have with the feat, lets reiterate the details of the feat from Arc's explanation and why its being proposed as an upgrade:

Yhwach plans on destroying the entire Bleach cosmos and then reforming it to eliminate the cycle of life and death, reversing what the Soul King originally did.
  • Based on Bleach Databook Masked page 130, we know the Garganta is not a void of nothingness, but rather a void of reishi.
  • Yhwach states he will collapse the three realms of existence, the Dangai, and everything connected to them. Askin confirms that Yhwach is going to destroy the realms. This includes the Garganta, as it is connected to the three realms; Ganju later confirms this stating the Garganta will be gone if Yhwach succeeds.
  • Isshin states that the World of the Living and Soul Society are separated by a separate timespace, that would make these realms space-time continuums of a universal scale, also known as Universal+ structures.
  • Conclusion: Yhwach merging everything would be at least Universal+ (since the Garganta is an infinite spacetime) to Low-Multiversal (being that the Bleach Cosmos is likely composed of multiple universal timespaces).

From Arc's explanation, thats the gist of the upgrade for Yhwach. Yhwach doing what the Soul King did, but in reverse. Fusing the realms together, destroying them, and then reformatting the world back into what it originally was before. And now lets mention the concerns I have for this feat for Yhwach.

Problem: Fusing Universes Together = Tier 2. Or does it? ​

Now for the concerns of this, this will be discussing the nature of Yhwach's feat itself and whats resulting from it. The issues at hand with this upgrade are that, while it seems great on paper, there are key factors that are either being ignored or haven't been taken into consideration. These factors involve the merging of the realms. To make this easier and more clearer to understand, we have to dissect what does and what doesn't equal tier 2 from this.

Now usually, the nature of merging universes together can indeed be equated to tier 2. Why? Because in most cases, universes being fused together is due to the realities as a whole being smooshed together and having their space-times being intertwined together as one to create a new space-time out of the ones involved. And in some preferred cases, the fusing of the worlds even results in all of those worlds being destroyed as a result of the merge.

However, there are is a requirement (or requirements) to be met first before this type of feat can be considered an actual tier 2 feat. For starters, there needs to be explicit evidence to explicitly prove space and time from the given realities are being merged together. This would need to be proven since here we are talking about universes being mushed together, and the only way that would happen is if space and time on the given scale is being effected by the merge. And by effected, I mean all of the given space-times from the realities being fused. Because of that, another usual requirement would be to prove the dimensions themselves are being fused toegether. Whether thats from the dialogue of the series saying it, context displaying the dimensions are being fused, etc.

Thats the basis for world-merging feats ending up as tier 2, and it's a solid basis at that. Assuming the requirements for the feat are met first of course. Now with that out of the way, we get to Yhwach and the Bleach cosmology.

"So what's wrong with Yhwach's feat?"​


As I explained above, world-merging feats are typically tier 2 for the given reasons. So in concept, Arc isnt inherently wrong about this. Yhwach merging the realms together, to then have them destroyed? That can be seen, on paper, as a tier 2. However, the proposal becomes questionable once you go deeper into the actual context as there is a glaring problem. There's no given evidence that Yhwach was actually fusing the space-time of the worlds together during the merge.

Unlike the average universe-merging feat that happens, Bleach doesnt meet the requirement in proving that the realms and their space-times were being entirely intertwined together to result in it being tier 2 in the end like it's being proposed. All we end up getting about this, mainly, is Yhwach planning or intending to fuse the worlds together. During everything that has happened from the death of the Soul King to Yhwach's eventual death by Ichigo, we are never remotely given any instances of these particular results happening:

  • The World of the Living's universe being mixed together with the Soul Society's universe
  • The World of the Living's universe being mixed together with Hueco Mundo's universe
  • The Soul Society's universe being mixed together with the World of the Living's universe
  • The Soucl Society's universe being mixed together with Hueco Mundo's universes
  • Hueco Mundo's universe being mixed together with the Soul Society's universe
  • Hueco Mundo's universe being mixed together with The World of the Living's universe
To make matters worse in this regard, we also have the Dangai and Garganta being in the equation. And with that, we are also never shown:
  • The Dangai being mixed together with the Soul Society's universe
  • The Dangai being mixed together with The World of the Living's universe
  • The Dangai being mixed together with any other realm
  • The Garganta being mixed together with any other realm
Just as its been bulleted out, the series does not ever show these given realms being mixed in together with each other, which is an explicit requirement to be met when it comes to universe-merging feats being accounted for. And had they been fusing together in that manner, we would see actual parts of these dimensions being mixed in. The Dangai especially since, as both sides here have long agreed, it is a space-time that exists between that of The Soul Society and The World of the Living. It is used for travel between the 2 worlds (with the exception of Shinigami who have hell butterflies to travel via the Senkaimon). As such, if Yhwach was actually merging these dimensions and their space-times together, we would have very much seen the Dangai's world being mixed in with both the Soul Society and The World of the Living. This goes even bigger with the Garganta since it encompasses every single realm within the Bleach cosmology, and for it to be effected by the merge in order to be destroyed, we would be seeing the Garganta being mixed in with the entire cosmology as a whole. Yet, none of these results are the cases of what actually happened in the series.

"The manga not showing the worlds being fused together doesn't matter, we know what Yhwach wanted to do and thats all that matters"​


Potential counter argument that i'll be addressing incase its brought up. It absolutely matters and is absolutely a burden of proof that needs to bet met as that is whats explicitly required to reach tier 2 with this kind of feat as layed out above. If space-time is being fused, then it would mean the dimensions/universes involved would need to be fused, and that is what would need to be proven. as whats happening. Whether shown, or stated, it needs to be proven on some level to be considered. This is how it's treated for every world-merging feat brought here to this site, so this would be no exception either.

Hence, if space-time isnt being proven to be intertwined together and it isnt being portrayed as such, then there wouldnt be anything to make this feat an upgrade.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Alright. So after skimming through the sandbox and keeping up with this thread so far, finally time to bring in my own thoughts here. Topics that are of concern to me, but will not be discussed in this comment, are the points relating to Muken, "names", and the size of the realms.

-The OP himself has admitted Muken has little, if anything, to do with this upgrade and isn't looking to discuss it right now
-Matt and others have already pointed out concerns with Muken, translations, and otherwise much better than I could have
-The size of the realms themselves are still an on-going debate that nothing I say right now would weigh in new things

Overall, these topics are already the center of attention from both sides, and at the moment, I have nothing to add in that hasn't already been pointed out. So I will not be touching them right now. Instead, what I am particularly focused on discussing is something from the proposal that has not been discussed yet. And that would be The Reversing of the Soul Cycle. Aka, Yhwach's feat of destroying the worlds. So lets get into breaking this down.

Feat: The Reversing of the Soul Cycle​


Before I get into explaining the concerns I have with the feat, lets reiterate the details of the feat from Arc's explanation and why its being proposed as an upgrade:

Yhwach plans on destroying the entire Bleach cosmos and then reforming it to eliminate the cycle of life and death, reversing what the Soul King originally did.
  • Based on Bleach Databook Masked page 130, we know the Garganta is not a void of nothingness, but rather a void of reishi.
  • Yhwach states he will collapse the three realms of existence, the Dangai, and everything connected to them. Askin confirms that Yhwach is going to destroy the realms. This includes the Garganta, as it is connected to the three realms; Ganju later confirms this stating the Garganta will be gone if Yhwach succeeds.
  • Isshin states that the World of the Living and Soul Society are separated by a separate timespace, that would make these realms space-time continuums of a universal scale, also known as Universal+ structures.
  • Conclusion: Yhwach merging everything would be at least Universal+ (since the Garganta is an infinite spacetime) to Low-Multiversal (being that the Bleach Cosmos is likely composed of multiple universal timespaces).

From Arc's explanation, thats the gist of the upgrade for Yhwach. Yhwach doing what the Soul King did, but in reverse. Fusing the realms together, destroying them, and then reformatting the world back into what it originally was before. And now lets mention the concerns I have for this feat for Yhwach.

Problem: Fusing Universes Together = Tier 2. Or does it? ​

Now for the concerns of this, this will be discussing the nature of Yhwach's feat itself and whats resulting from it. The issues at hand with this upgrade are that, while it seems great on paper, there are key factors that are either being ignored or haven't been taken into consideration. These factors involve the merging of the realms. To make this easier and more clearer to understand, we have to dissect what does and what doesn't equal tier 2 from this.

Now usually, the nature of merging universes together can indeed be equated to tier 2. Why? Because in most cases, universes being fused together is due to the realities as a whole being smooshed together and having their space-times being intertwined together as one to create a new space-time out of the ones involved. And in some preferred cases, the fusing of the worlds even results in all of those worlds being destroyed as a result of the merge.

However, there are is a requirement (or requirements) to be met first before this type of feat can be considered an actual tier 2 feat. For starters, there needs to be explicit evidence to explicitly prove space and time from the given realities are being merged together. This would need to be proven since here we are talking about universes being mushed together, and the only way that would happen is if space and time on the given scale is being effected by the merge. And by effected, I mean all of the given space-times from the realities being fused. Because of that, another usual requirement would be to prove the dimensions themselves are being fused toegether. Whether thats from the dialogue of the series saying it, context displaying the dimensions are being fused, etc.

Thats the basis for world-merging feats ending up as tier 2, and it's a solid basis at that. Assuming the requirements for the feat are met first of course. Now with that out of the way, we get to Yhwach and the Bleach cosmology.

"So what's wrong with Yhwach's feat?"​


As I explained above, world-merging feats are typically tier 2 for the given reasons. So in concept, Arc isnt inherently wrong about this. Yhwach merging the realms together, to then have them destroyed? That can be seen, on paper, as a tier 2. However, the proposal becomes questionable once you go deeper into the actual context as there is a glaring problem. There's no given evidence that Yhwach was actually fusing the space-time of the worlds together during the merge.

Unlike the average universe-merging feat that happens, Bleach doesnt meet the requirement in proving that the realms and their space-times were being entirely intertwined together to result in it being tier 2 in the end like it's being proposed. All we end up getting about this, mainly, is Yhwach planning or intending to fuse the worlds together. During everything that has happened from the death of the Soul King to Yhwach's eventual death by Ichigo, we are never remotely given any instances of these particular results happening:

  • The World of the Living's universe being mixed together with the Soul Society's universe
  • The World of the Living's universe being mixed together with Hueco Mundo's universe
  • The Soul Society's universe being mixed together with the World of the Living's universe
  • The Soucl Society's universe being mixed together with Hueco Mundo's universes
  • Hueco Mundo's universe being mixed together with the Soul Society's universe
  • Hueco Mundo's universe being mixed together with The World of the Living's universe
To make matters worse in this regard, we also have the Dangai and Garganta being in the equation. And with that, we are also never shown:
  • The Dangai being mixed together with the Soul Society's universe
  • The Dangai being mixed together with The World of the Living's universe
  • The Dangai being mixed together with any other realm
  • The Garganta being mixed together with any other realm
Just as its been bulleted out, the series does not ever show these given realms being mixed in together with each other, which is an explicit requirement to be met when it comes to universe-merging feats being accounted for. And had they been fusing together in that manner, we would see actual parts of these dimensions being mixed in. The Dangai especially since, as both sides here have long agreed, it is a space-time that exists between that of The Soul Society and The World of the Living. It is used for travel between the 2 worlds (with the exception of Shinigami who have hell butterflies to travel via the Senkaimon). As such, if Yhwach was actually merging these dimensions and their space-times together, we would have very much seen the Dangai's world being mixed in with both the Soul Society and The World of the Living. This goes even bigger with the Garganta since it encompasses every single realm within the Bleach cosmology, and for it to be effected by the merge in order to be destroyed, we would be seeing the Garganta being mixed in with the entire cosmology as a whole. Yet, none of these results are the cases of what actually happened in the series.

"The manga not showing the worlds being fused together doesn't matter, we know what Yhwach wanted to do and thats all that matters"​


Potential counter argument that i'll be addressing incase its brought up. It absolutely matters and is absolutely a burden of proof that needs to bet met as that is whats explicitly required to reach tier 2 with this kind of feat as layed out above. If space-time is being fused, then it would mean the dimensions/universes involved would need to be fused, and that is what would need to be proven. as whats happening. Whether shown, or stated, it needs to be proven on some level to be considered. This is how it's treated for every world-merging feat brought here to this site, so this would be no exception either.

Hence, if space-time isnt being proven to be intertwined together and it isnt being portrayed as such, then there wouldnt be anything to make this feat an upgrade.
Click to expand...
soul king was maintaining everything with his existence which fits the requirement
unknown.png

unknown.png

also yhwach was going to undo everything rei o did and we know rei o made these separate space time continuums
 
I read that wall of text but most of your counters is “why didn’t we see so and so happen”. There is no guideline as to how dimensions get merged.

Yhwachs merging thing clearly isn’t an instantaneous thing and it lasted for like what 2-3 panels? The dialogue mentions this is what he is doing.

His father already did the feat and he was simply planning to undo it so it’s the reverse of whatever his dad did.

For your argument to really make sense we’d have to assume the other characters are idiots and Kubo has no idea what he was trying to show us.
 
Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye said:
I read that wall of text but most of your counters is “why didn’t we see so and so happen”. There is no guideline as to how dimensions get merged.
Click to expand...
Actually there is as layed out in this thread I made a little while ago. And considering that I have or know verses with feats exactly the same as this that needed to prove space-time was being effected before they could be upgraded (as they realistically should), the same would go here for Yhwach.

Something similar was also talked about in this thread, showing that theres definitely requirements to these kinds of feats.
Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye said:
Yhwachs merging thing clearly isn’t an instantaneous thing and it lasted for like what 2-3 panels? The dialogue mentions this is what he is doing.
Click to expand...
But do we actually see the dimensions being physically mushed together? That their space-times are being intertwined? And for a reminder, which panels again? The one right before he was plot arrowed or earlier on?
Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye said:
His father already did the feat and he was simply planning to undo it so it’s the reverse of whatever his dad did.
Click to expand...
Yeah. Key word here: Planning. Not necessarily equating to actually doing.
 
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