- 934
- 327
yhwach said everything connected would collapse its supported by ganjus statement and we know without rei o everything would go back to how things were and its accepted rei o created garganta
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Bleach God Tiers for real this time
- Thread starter Arc7Kuroi
- Start date
- Status
- 6,253
- 2,677
wasn't it 100 million?
- 1,812
- 1,328
It is outlier with the preconception that people have on HST in general, things like "they can be that strong", no one really scale to Yhwach or Ichigo at that point of the manga, author also does not really think about those stuffs of huge scaling jump like us, especially kubo; if you would probably ask him if Yhwach can destroy an universe he would answer yes since it is also hinted in the novel, beside that, I want to point out that word like "possibly" also exits.
I will just follow for now, either way, regardless Yhwach and Ichigo issues, given the cosmology and the fact that more than 2 dimensions have different materials, spiritual and physicals, and that at the beggining just a formless void existed, Reio rating should be Universal or higher.
I will just follow for now, either way, regardless Yhwach and Ichigo issues, given the cosmology and the fact that more than 2 dimensions have different materials, spiritual and physicals, and that at the beggining just a formless void existed, Reio rating should be Universal or higher.
- 32,359
- 20,298
No just 1.
- 8,160
- 2,190
Fan translation mistranslation. I had changed all the ages if you check profiles.
- 8,160
- 2,190
Someone like Grimmjow has over 100,000,000 souls within his body. So it makes sense.
- 6,253
- 2,677
hollows are made from tens of thousands to hundreds of millions of souls and i would say billions for the top of the top
- 4,325
- 732
Yep surely but even if we combined all of them, with what we have see of what they can do with that number, i don't think it's will be enough
- 8,160
- 2,190
Doesn’t really matter.
- 6,253
- 2,677
we dont exactly know how big he was so not much to go from we just know that he was big enough that his corps serves as a planet
- 934
- 327
iirc the menos was used to make heuco mundos desert not ss
- 11,563
- 3,118
Hollows existed before the Menos and so did souls. Ichibei was present when the Soul King arrived. Turning the Menos into the sands of Hueco Mundo was told afterwards. And then he created the Soul Society and the world of the living last.
- 15,442
- 15,409
Wouldn't this mean that Orihime has Tier 2 Shields? That's kinda silly
- 934
- 327
aizen already had established she has powers that break what was set by the gods
- 8,160
- 2,190
I don’t get the argument?
- 32,359
- 20,298
Outlier for Orihime.
- 6,253
- 2,677
her shields are not dependent on her stats, they are dependent on how she feels and her motivation/conviction
- 8,160
- 2,190
Yeah it’s literally the rejection of events and phenomenon.
- 31,397
- 27,687
I have some more to post about regarding the sealed Soul King, which I'll get to as soon as I can tomorrow.
Hopefully this thread doesn't get too crazy until then.
Hopefully this thread doesn't get too crazy until then.
- 32,359
- 20,298
So it's just hax and would be Unknown and not quantifiable.
- 8,160
- 2,190
I personally don’t agree with him scaling but it’s whatever.
- 8,160
- 2,190
No. If she is upgraded it would be 6-B and whatever with said technique. Only in durability though for the barrier which is how she rated right now but with Tier 5 right now.
- 5,666
- 4,895
So something I thought of
Ichigo was considered a soul king candidate in order to sustain the cosmology yet he has no hacks so it would probably be off of pure spiritual energy.
And ywhach's corpse can sustain the cosmology despite being dead so he can't be using the Almighty
Ichigo was considered a soul king candidate in order to sustain the cosmology yet he has no hacks so it would probably be off of pure spiritual energy.
And ywhach's corpse can sustain the cosmology despite being dead so he can't be using the Almighty
- 8,160
- 2,190
Because they have enough power to maintain it. It’s how it’s rated right now. Not hax.
- 8,160
- 2,190
I don’t think so. We already got everything we need to know via it’s description and etc.
Ovy7
He/Him- 2,622
- 2,474
Eh, more proof never hurts lol.
- 32,359
- 20,298
Yeah this is what I talked about
- 11,563
- 3,118
If the Old World was the “universe”. The Menos Grande that the Soul King turned into the sands of Hueco Mundo is that big? Is stated that his mere size put the old world in “stillness” and couldn’t move. This would validate the databook statement that Hueco Mundo’s desert is infinite in size. Since the grains of sands were once the particles of this same Menos Grande.
- 8,160
- 2,190
Endless desert doesn’t exactly mean infinite desert.
- 6,014
- 2,122
In any case, the statement is completly hyperbolic so can't even be used as evidence
- 16,960
- 4,860
Alright. So after skimming through the sandbox and keeping up with this thread so far, finally time to bring in my own thoughts here. Topics that are of concern to me, but will not be discussed in this comment, are the points relating to Muken, "names", and the size of the realms.
-The OP himself has admitted Muken has little, if anything, to do with this upgrade and isn't looking to discuss it right now
-Matt and others have already pointed out concerns with Muken, translations, and otherwise much better than I could have
-The size of the realms themselves are still an on-going debate that nothing I say right now would weigh in new things
Overall, these topics are already the center of attention from both sides, and at the moment, I have nothing to add in that hasn't already been pointed out. So I will not be touching them right now. Instead, what I am particularly focused on discussing is something from the proposal that has not been discussed yet. And that would be The Reversing of the Soul Cycle. Aka, Yhwach's feat of destroying the worlds. So lets get into breaking this down.
Before I get into explaining the concerns I have with the feat, lets reiterate the details of the feat from Arc's explanation and why its being proposed as an upgrade:
Yhwach plans on destroying the entire Bleach cosmos and then reforming it to eliminate the cycle of life and death, reversing what the Soul King originally did.
From Arc's explanation, thats the gist of the upgrade for Yhwach. Yhwach doing what the Soul King did, but in reverse. Fusing the realms together, destroying them, and then reformatting the world back into what it originally was before. And now lets mention the concerns I have for this feat for Yhwach.
Now usually, the nature of merging universes together can indeed be equated to tier 2. Why? Because in most cases, universes being fused together is due to the realities as a whole being smooshed together and having their space-times being intertwined together as one to create a new space-time out of the ones involved. And in some preferred cases, the fusing of the worlds even results in all of those worlds being destroyed as a result of the merge.
However, there are is a requirement (or requirements) to be met first before this type of feat can be considered an actual tier 2 feat. For starters, there needs to be explicit evidence to explicitly prove space and time from the given realities are being merged together. This would need to be proven since here we are talking about universes being mushed together, and the only way that would happen is if space and time on the given scale is being effected by the merge. And by effected, I mean all of the given space-times from the realities being fused. Because of that, another usual requirement would be to prove the dimensions themselves are being fused toegether. Whether thats from the dialogue of the series saying it, context displaying the dimensions are being fused, etc.
Thats the basis for world-merging feats ending up as tier 2, and it's a solid basis at that. Assuming the requirements for the feat are met first of course. Now with that out of the way, we get to Yhwach and the Bleach cosmology.
As I explained above, world-merging feats are typically tier 2 for the given reasons. So in concept, Arc isnt inherently wrong about this. Yhwach merging the realms together, to then have them destroyed? That can be seen, on paper, as a tier 2. However, the proposal becomes questionable once you go deeper into the actual context as there is a glaring problem. There's no given evidence that Yhwach was actually fusing the space-time of the worlds together during the merge.
Unlike the average universe-merging feat that happens, Bleach doesnt meet the requirement in proving that the realms and their space-times were being entirely intertwined together to result in it being tier 2 in the end like it's being proposed. All we end up getting about this, mainly, is Yhwach planning or intending to fuse the worlds together. During everything that has happened from the death of the Soul King to Yhwach's eventual death by Ichigo, we are never remotely given any instances of these particular results happening:
Potential counter argument that i'll be addressing incase its brought up. It absolutely matters and is absolutely a burden of proof that needs to bet met as that is whats explicitly required to reach tier 2 with this kind of feat as layed out above. If space-time is being fused, then it would mean the dimensions/universes involved would need to be fused, and that is what would need to be proven. as whats happening. Whether shown, or stated, it needs to be proven on some level to be considered. This is how it's treated for every world-merging feat brought here to this site, so this would be no exception either.
Hence, if space-time isnt being proven to be intertwined together and it isnt being portrayed as such, then there wouldnt be anything to make this feat an upgrade.
-The OP himself has admitted Muken has little, if anything, to do with this upgrade and isn't looking to discuss it right now
-Matt and others have already pointed out concerns with Muken, translations, and otherwise much better than I could have
-The size of the realms themselves are still an on-going debate that nothing I say right now would weigh in new things
Overall, these topics are already the center of attention from both sides, and at the moment, I have nothing to add in that hasn't already been pointed out. So I will not be touching them right now. Instead, what I am particularly focused on discussing is something from the proposal that has not been discussed yet. And that would be The Reversing of the Soul Cycle. Aka, Yhwach's feat of destroying the worlds. So lets get into breaking this down.
Feat: The Reversing of the Soul Cycle
Before I get into explaining the concerns I have with the feat, lets reiterate the details of the feat from Arc's explanation and why its being proposed as an upgrade:
Yhwach plans on destroying the entire Bleach cosmos and then reforming it to eliminate the cycle of life and death, reversing what the Soul King originally did.
- Based on Bleach Databook Masked page 130, we know the Garganta is not a void of nothingness, but rather a void of reishi.
- Yhwach states he will collapse the three realms of existence, the Dangai, and everything connected to them. Askin confirms that Yhwach is going to destroy the realms. This includes the Garganta, as it is connected to the three realms; Ganju later confirms this stating the Garganta will be gone if Yhwach succeeds.
- Isshin states that the World of the Living and Soul Society are separated by a separate timespace, that would make these realms space-time continuums of a universal scale, also known as Universal+ structures.
- Conclusion: Yhwach merging everything would be at least Universal+ (since the Garganta is an infinite spacetime) to Low-Multiversal (being that the Bleach Cosmos is likely composed of multiple universal timespaces).
From Arc's explanation, thats the gist of the upgrade for Yhwach. Yhwach doing what the Soul King did, but in reverse. Fusing the realms together, destroying them, and then reformatting the world back into what it originally was before. And now lets mention the concerns I have for this feat for Yhwach.
Problem: Fusing Universes Together = Tier 2. Or does it?
Now for the concerns of this, this will be discussing the nature of Yhwach's feat itself and whats resulting from it. The issues at hand with this upgrade are that, while it seems great on paper, there are key factors that are either being ignored or haven't been taken into consideration. These factors involve the merging of the realms. To make this easier and more clearer to understand, we have to dissect what does and what doesn't equal tier 2 from this.Now usually, the nature of merging universes together can indeed be equated to tier 2. Why? Because in most cases, universes being fused together is due to the realities as a whole being smooshed together and having their space-times being intertwined together as one to create a new space-time out of the ones involved. And in some preferred cases, the fusing of the worlds even results in all of those worlds being destroyed as a result of the merge.
However, there are is a requirement (or requirements) to be met first before this type of feat can be considered an actual tier 2 feat. For starters, there needs to be explicit evidence to explicitly prove space and time from the given realities are being merged together. This would need to be proven since here we are talking about universes being mushed together, and the only way that would happen is if space and time on the given scale is being effected by the merge. And by effected, I mean all of the given space-times from the realities being fused. Because of that, another usual requirement would be to prove the dimensions themselves are being fused toegether. Whether thats from the dialogue of the series saying it, context displaying the dimensions are being fused, etc.
Thats the basis for world-merging feats ending up as tier 2, and it's a solid basis at that. Assuming the requirements for the feat are met first of course. Now with that out of the way, we get to Yhwach and the Bleach cosmology.
"So what's wrong with Yhwach's feat?"
As I explained above, world-merging feats are typically tier 2 for the given reasons. So in concept, Arc isnt inherently wrong about this. Yhwach merging the realms together, to then have them destroyed? That can be seen, on paper, as a tier 2. However, the proposal becomes questionable once you go deeper into the actual context as there is a glaring problem. There's no given evidence that Yhwach was actually fusing the space-time of the worlds together during the merge.
Unlike the average universe-merging feat that happens, Bleach doesnt meet the requirement in proving that the realms and their space-times were being entirely intertwined together to result in it being tier 2 in the end like it's being proposed. All we end up getting about this, mainly, is Yhwach planning or intending to fuse the worlds together. During everything that has happened from the death of the Soul King to Yhwach's eventual death by Ichigo, we are never remotely given any instances of these particular results happening:
- The World of the Living's universe being mixed together with the Soul Society's universe
- The World of the Living's universe being mixed together with Hueco Mundo's universe
- The Soul Society's universe being mixed together with the World of the Living's universe
- The Soucl Society's universe being mixed together with Hueco Mundo's universes
- Hueco Mundo's universe being mixed together with the Soul Society's universe
- Hueco Mundo's universe being mixed together with The World of the Living's universe
- The Dangai being mixed together with the Soul Society's universe
- The Dangai being mixed together with The World of the Living's universe
- The Dangai being mixed together with any other realm
- The Garganta being mixed together with any other realm
"The manga not showing the worlds being fused together doesn't matter, we know what Yhwach wanted to do and thats all that matters"
Potential counter argument that i'll be addressing incase its brought up. It absolutely matters and is absolutely a burden of proof that needs to bet met as that is whats explicitly required to reach tier 2 with this kind of feat as layed out above. If space-time is being fused, then it would mean the dimensions/universes involved would need to be fused, and that is what would need to be proven. as whats happening. Whether shown, or stated, it needs to be proven on some level to be considered. This is how it's treated for every world-merging feat brought here to this site, so this would be no exception either.
Hence, if space-time isnt being proven to be intertwined together and it isnt being portrayed as such, then there wouldnt be anything to make this feat an upgrade.
- 934
- 327
soul king was maintaining everything with his existence which fits the requirement
also yhwach was going to undo everything rei o did and we know rei o made these separate space time continuums
- 8,160
- 2,190
I read that wall of text but most of your counters is “why didn’t we see so and so happen”. There is no guideline as to how dimensions get merged.
Yhwachs merging thing clearly isn’t an instantaneous thing and it lasted for like what 2-3 panels? The dialogue mentions this is what he is doing.
His father already did the feat and he was simply planning to undo it so it’s the reverse of whatever his dad did.
For your argument to really make sense we’d have to assume the other characters are idiots and Kubo has no idea what he was trying to show us.
Yhwachs merging thing clearly isn’t an instantaneous thing and it lasted for like what 2-3 panels? The dialogue mentions this is what he is doing.
His father already did the feat and he was simply planning to undo it so it’s the reverse of whatever his dad did.
For your argument to really make sense we’d have to assume the other characters are idiots and Kubo has no idea what he was trying to show us.
- 11,563
- 3,118
Alone that maybe. But if the Menos Grande was the size of the old universe it will not be hyperbolic.
- 8,160
- 2,190
Nowhere is it said menos is the size of a universe lol
- 16,960
- 4,860
Actually there is as layed out in this thread I made a little while ago. And considering that I have or know verses with feats exactly the same as this that needed to prove space-time was being effected before they could be upgraded (as they realistically should), the same would go here for Yhwach.
Something similar was also talked about in this thread, showing that theres definitely requirements to these kinds of feats.
But do we actually see the dimensions being physically mushed together? That their space-times are being intertwined? And for a reminder, which panels again? The one right before he was plot arrowed or earlier on?
Yeah. Key word here: Planning. Not necessarily equating to actually doing.
- Status
Similar threads
