- 16,959
- 4,855
Now here's my response to IMade to conlude my final counters here. Sorry again for having this take so long.
Since these are my final counters here, I want to try keeping this straight to the point instead of dragging the discussion out and show why the argument for the downgrade still holds, even without using any of the minor points above.
The lie about the Soul King made by the royal family has only to do with just that, the Soul King and his role in the Bleach Cosmology. It has nothing to do with Quincies destabilizing the soul cycle by eradicating Hollows permanently or how Shinigami are considered balancers between the worlds.
Giving even further proof on why these 2 things are unrelated, I will be giving this scan here, that comes from the first chapter of Cant Fear Your Own World. When confronting Grimmjow, Harribel and Nelliel, Ichibe claims that they cannot be carelessly purified or eradicated or else the balance between the 3 worlds collapses. Stated directly by a member of Zero Squad who has no reason to be lying to them.
That will be the last thing i'll say on this here. I don't mind dropping this from the argument either, as now i'll be getting to the relevant points for the argument and why the smaller points do not matter.
The Soul King stabilizing the flow of souls? Reiatsu not being used to sustain the worlds? Ignoring now. I'm perfectly fine with dropping those and going with the the Soul King stabilizing the worlds, and doing so using Reiatsu. I'm fine with those, because they still don’t change a single thing here about this downgrade being able to happen. Im fine with ignoring them because both points are irrelevant. Why are they irrelevant? For one reason that's been repeated this whole thread, and something that IMade himself admits to not being able to discuss.
The stability feats here are unquantifiable and are nowhere near 3-A or Low 2-C. At all. Regardless of what's getting sustained, or how the sustaining is being accomplished, it's useless without a quantifiable rating being able to be put on it. That is the main problem that the downgrade's main argument presents.
The destruction of the worlds that unfolds when they are no longer sustained by the Soul King isn’t 3-A or Low 2-C destruction.
It is not instant. It is not immediate. It immediately begins to happen, but the entire destructive process from start to finish isn’t immediate. It's extended over a long time-frame where nothing dimensionally begins to be destroyed, and hardly anything gets destroyed. The only thing occurring is a dimensional quake that goes through the worlds, and it affects the worlds all differently. The Soul Society violently shakes and only buildings fall over. Hueco Mundo shakes to a lesser extent than the Soul Society. And worst of all, the World of the Living receives only a minor long lasting quake where nothing gets destroyed at all and is not even seen so much as a threat since the scale of it wasn't threatening enough to be reported on news stations or cause a world-wide panic among civilians.
For this sustenance feat to be considered either 3-A or Low 2-C, the destruction that the sustenance would be stopping would need to be instant or immediate to prove that it’s rivaling true 3-A or Low 2-C power, as outlined and required on our new page for Stability Feat Standards. But as its been explained many times, that isn't the case anymore. The sustenance feat is unquantifiable and counts as nothing here. Just unknown amounts of 4-D power that can't be quantified as a tier.
And because the Soul King’s sustenance feat wouldn't count as anything anymore, a large chunk of support the upgrades previously had from it gets lost too. Especially for Yhwach.
Failing to grasp this issue here, IMade giving the statements on the Soul King & Yhwach sustaining the worlds means nothing anymore. Both of those stability feats and the statements that support them are completely irrelevant because they are not quantifiable feats anymore. They are no longer 3-A or Low 2-C feats as it was explained reoccuringly in the thread, and as I explained here in final counters again. Why defend the sustanence statements when you can’t defend the sustanance feats as a whole being acceptable? And on that note, we get to the scaling that gets removed by losing the sustenance feats.
Yhwach absorbing the Soul King, Mimihagi, and Ichigo’s power is completely irrelevant to this point now. Why? Because their power is neither 3-A or Low 2-C without the sustenance feat being 3-A or Low 2-C in the first place now.
Just so that what I quoted isn’t missed, i’ll sum up each point.
The Weakened Soul King’s tier is now unquantifiable due to his sustenance feat not being 3-A or Low 2-C anymore. That means:
TL;DR- Yhwach would indeed have a lack of power, lack of supporting feats and severe lack of evidence to do his feat, because without the sustenance feat from the Weakened Soul King counting as any tier, Yhwach being superior to him does not grant an upgrade. Him absorbing the Weakened Soul King and Mimihagi doesn’t grant an upgrade either. On top of no timeframe and lack in context, that makes this upgrade for Yhwach much less concrete. Along with IMade himself dodging the argument on why the sustenance feat itself is not quantifiable under the new standards for sustenance feats. This point is entirely null.
Planning to do x =/= He can do x. Trying to do x =/= He can do x
These are not feats or actual confirmations. Supporting evidence? Sure. But it being the main evidence to say he can 100% perform this is not granted by it. Because there is a thing called “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” and if much more solid evidence than this can’t be granted solid ratings, what makes anyone think this is enough?
I’ll be saying this one last time for these counters. This isn’t how we measure and give feats here. What matters at the end of the day isn’t character intention, its capability and confirmation. What matters at the end of the day is if the character can be proven or confirmed to be able to do what's claimed, not what the character themselves intend to do.
Dragon Ball Super is a very big false equivalence to the issues and inconsistencies at hand here with Bleaches scaling, for a number of different reasons.
This is massively in contrast to what Bleach was doing with Yhwach and the Soul King, because there was killing intent and 0 reason to be holding back power. These Reio Eyeball monsters were made by torrents of Reio’s Reiatsu (torrents already implying a decent deal of power is being applied to create the millions and millions of them that appeared) and were SENT to attack the Shinigami in battle, who were considered their enemies, because Yhwach was in the middle of devouring Reio and wanted to prevent any interference with that from happening. This shows obvious intent in attacking and even killing the opponents as that's what the eyeball creatures were sent to do the moment they appeared. Them sparing the Sternritter also proves that.
There is a difference between Low 2-C energy that's outright being divided up (The Reio Eyeballs) and someone holding back his power by incredible amounts to deal with fodder (Beerus). But more importantly, we get to the biggest issue with this false equivalence here.
Beerus knocked out Bulma and every single one of the Z-fighters with incredible ease. They did not withstand or counter these casual strikes from Beerus. Their strength, in comparison, was a joke. They stood 0 chance against a casual Beerus. They were outright stomped, which clearly and painfully shows why they aren’t scaling to Low 2-C. They would have to be able to put up an actual fight for that suggestion to be possible, which wasn't the case with them.
Bleach on the other hand does the same thing, but in reverse. The Captain and Assistant Captain class Shinigamis stomped the Reio monsters in power. They were not so much as scratched. They received no damage against them. Their power was completely superior to the strength of the Eyeball monsters on every level and were fodderizing them. They didn’t get stomped by the monsters, the monsters got stomped by them. The only reason they had any difficulty in getting rid of the monsters was due to the sheer difference in numbers, where only Aizen was capable of one shotting them all at once to get rid of every single one. But when actually fighting large gangs of the monsters? Everyone did just fine.
Dragon Ball's case is totally different from Bleaches. Beerus held back incredibly so, attacked with no killing intent or intent to fight, and easily prevailed by stomping who he fought. Yhwach and Reio's Reiatsu is a case where power is being divided up into lower amounts, created creatures from said power to fight enemies, having the intent to attack and kill and the opponents they fought easily stomped them into the ground, with a numbers advantage being the monsters only saving grace until Aizen appeared.
TL;DR- This false equivalence changes nothing about how our site and tiering system treats Low 2-C, and the opposition once again seems to fail in understanding the tier they’re actively trying to defend. Low 2-C power divided up will always be Low 2-C, on lower unquantifiable levels, because this now deals with infinite energy.
This point was addressed at length already and countered in my earlier counters and in my final response to Arc. Leaving it at that.
You immediately go straight back to saying Uryu is “in front of Yhwach” when I already addressed this in the counters, saying that it's simply Kubo using terrible paneling and it's a far less argumentative argument that doesn't take a bunch of mental gymnastics to assume from your side. As well as the viable possibility that Yhwach simply turned around to face Uryu.
But more importantly, you completely ignored the debunk on Uryu using Antithesis when he couldn't have used it and nothing directly said he did use it. You just returned back to talking about the Antithesis countering Almighty, which we already know. It doesn’t matter if it counters Almighty, what matters is if Uryu was proven to use the Antithesis with the arrow. And from my counters, it isn't.
Like I said, I'm personally fine with not using the arrow anymore either, because it wouldn't change anything here either way, but the amount of dodging done on this part of counters needs to be addressed one more time.
To show the point of my counters, I'm being very generous here against the opposition. I dropped the original post’s argument on the flow of souls. I dropped the original post’s argument on Reiatsu not being used for the Soul King’s sustenance feat. I dropped the minor point relating to a character’s credibility. Several of these minor points I have dropped, as I list in the beginning of my final counters, and went with the opposite approach for argument's sake. I acknowledge the Soul King sustaining the worlds instead of the flow of souls. I acknowledge the Soul King sustaining the worlds with Reiatsu. I acknowledge these points because of the fact that they do not debunk the downgrade’s argument. I acknowledge them because they ultimately change nothing about the result. To put it like this, IMade’s counters can be said to chip away at the argument by targeting minor points, but it fails to actually cut the head off of the snake. It fails to actually target the main aspect of the entire argument AKM brought. That main aspect being the now invalid sustenance feat from the Soul King.
With the sustenance feat(s) now unquantifiable, any and all feats and scaling related to it becomes unquantifiable by default. That means Yhwach being stronger than the Weakened Soul King is now unquantifiable. That means Yhwach absorbing his power, and the power of people who scale to him, is now unquantifiable. That means a Ichigos Power is unquantifiable. That means Yhwach absorbing his power is unquantifiable too. And by this, it removes a large amount of support the upgrades previously had.
Adding more fuel to this fire comes the scaling inconsistencies that IMade also still failed to defend the upgrades from. He used false equivalencies in the form of Dragon Ball examples to defend the upgrades from scaling to non-god tier Bleach characters, which I explained away at why it was a false equivalency. Neither he or the people against the downgrade’s seem to have a full understanding of how our tiering system works by arguing against the idea of how Low 2-C power is divided up. This isn’t the same thing as dividing 5-B or 4-A power, tiers that involve quantifiably finite levels of energy that can be divided up and not necessarily be either tier. This is now involving the use of infinite energy, which is present in tiers like Low 2-C and above. Infinite energy being divided is still going to be infinite. Low 2-C power divided up is still going to be Low 2-C, just unquantifiably lower than it was before the division. That is the basics to a tier like Low 2-C, and arguing against this presents a shaky defense against the inconsistencies, like Captains, Lieutenants, and Ichigo’s son being able to destroy energy from the Soul King and Yhwach, power that the opposition is still adamant at keeping Low 2-C. As well as scaling inconsistencies that come with the Almighty scaling to AP that the opposition didn’t address.
IMade himself even admits to not understand this part of the argument on why the stability feat doesn’t count as an acceptable feat anymore, which should show again just exactly how much his argument counters and what it doesn’t counter.
Ultimately, this comes down to only one thing left that can vouch for the upgrades to stay afloat, a thing that is very arguably insufficient: statements.
We all know exactly how statements can work here, for better or worse. Someone’s stated to destroy the universe a dozen times and 3-A can get handed to them. A credible and highly intelligent character makes the point clear that X character can destroy a planet, so people shoot for 5-B upgrades. But the other side of this standard is used just as much to give reasonable skepticism too so we dont inflate characters instantaneously. Someone without supporting feats is stated to be able to destroy galaxies? 3-B isn’t automatically in their reach. A character is said many times to be able to destroy a multiverse, without having precise context factored in? 2-A isn’t instantly put on the table either. The use of statements as evidence, on this site, isn’t a black and white thing to be looked at. Neither is many of our standards. Many things here always come down to being a case by case basis, and they end up in a gray area of what's acceptable and what isn’t. And the case here for Bleach falls right into that gray area.
These statements now lack supporting feats with the sustenance feat(s) being invalidated. These statements now lack supporting scaling to push Yhwach at the level needed for his feat. These statements lack a timeframe of how quick or how long Yhwach would be doing his feat, which can’t be determined without using pure speculation. These statements lack context as to how exactly the destruction of the worlds would play out, besides Reiatsu being the method of causing it. These statements lose a lot of support that we’d normally be very strict about and require for statement-based evidence, no matter how often they’re stated. Or no matter how “I will destroy x” blatant the statements are. Statements can be very much not acceptable as any kind of evidence without support like this. What makes Bleach the exception?
On top of all of this, the use of these statements here are pushing for an upgrade on drastic proportions. An upgrade that doesn’t climb just one tier. Not two tiers. Not five tiers. Not even ten tiers. But fifthteen whole tiers all at once. An upgrade that would skyrocket Bleach up nearly a whole quarter of our tiering system in one fell swoop, through the use of these statements and no other evidence. Climbing that many tiers with so little evidence isn’t supposed to be happening here. The higher tiers you climb, the more evidence you're supposed to be giving are needed. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
And let’s be honest here. Many fictional verses here are normally scrutinized so much that they have to fight tooth and nail, go every step of the mile, and fight up-hill battles, just to climb one tier. I won’t name specific examples, but the people reading this know the verses im talking about. Some of the people who have left our site unfortunately give complaints about this very thing. A lot of the time, we make our standards tight and make some of these series fight harder battles to get upgrades the more they try shooting for higher tiers. But that seems to only be half-heartedly applied. Here we are faced with one of the biggest tier climbs to be seen on this site in a while, and our standards should allow statements by itself to be granted this tier climb? An upgrade that we normally would never accept without being far more cautious? Giving far more expectations? Giving far more requirements? Far more skepticism? We all need to be asking ourselves that. We need to be asking if our standards can turn a cheek, and make exceptions like this. We need to ask ourselves, point blank, if this evidence is still enough for an upgrade to this extent before giving the final verdict.
Ultimately, the main arguments in favor of the downgrades were not addressed, or countered, by the people who oppose the downgrade. Minor points they have targeted chip away at the argument, but they fail to debunk the actual main aspect of the downgrade's argument. And it's due to this that the downgrade, overall, still maintains a solid basis that should be taken into great consideration by staff.
Counters for IMade’s Argument:
Points To Ignore:
Ganju’s Credibility
Can’t Fear Your Own World Novel Statement On Flow of Souls
Yhwach’s Stability Statement
Yhwach Stabilizing The Worlds
The Soul King's Stability Done With Reiatsu/Reiryoku
Since these are my final counters here, I want to try keeping this straight to the point instead of dragging the discussion out and show why the argument for the downgrade still holds, even without using any of the minor points above.
Points I Disagree With:
The Threat of the Quincies “Isn't True”
I'll mostly be ignoring this point too, but again, we still have more unfounded speculation being made here. I addressed and called this out already in my previous response to IMade on why this was irrelevant.The lie about the Soul King made by the royal family has only to do with just that, the Soul King and his role in the Bleach Cosmology. It has nothing to do with Quincies destabilizing the soul cycle by eradicating Hollows permanently or how Shinigami are considered balancers between the worlds.
Giving even further proof on why these 2 things are unrelated, I will be giving this scan here, that comes from the first chapter of Cant Fear Your Own World. When confronting Grimmjow, Harribel and Nelliel, Ichibe claims that they cannot be carelessly purified or eradicated or else the balance between the 3 worlds collapses. Stated directly by a member of Zero Squad who has no reason to be lying to them.
That will be the last thing i'll say on this here. I don't mind dropping this from the argument either, as now i'll be getting to the relevant points for the argument and why the smaller points do not matter.
The Points Im Ignoring & Why They Change Nothing
Now we get to this. Like I said, since I want these last set of counters from me to focus on the main important points, I decided earlier to ignore several minor points from the original post that were only used as supporting points.The Soul King stabilizing the flow of souls? Reiatsu not being used to sustain the worlds? Ignoring now. I'm perfectly fine with dropping those and going with the the Soul King stabilizing the worlds, and doing so using Reiatsu. I'm fine with those, because they still don’t change a single thing here about this downgrade being able to happen. Im fine with ignoring them because both points are irrelevant. Why are they irrelevant? For one reason that's been repeated this whole thread, and something that IMade himself admits to not being able to discuss.
The stability feats here are unquantifiable and are nowhere near 3-A or Low 2-C. At all. Regardless of what's getting sustained, or how the sustaining is being accomplished, it's useless without a quantifiable rating being able to be put on it. That is the main problem that the downgrade's main argument presents.
The Stability Feat, Once Again, Is Unquantifiable
This explanation has been repeated and re-explained to death in this thread, so i'm just going to quote the explanations given again and again for why the sustenance feats are invalid and do not fall under our newly created standards for Stability Feats:Reason 4: The Soul King Stabilizing The Cosmology Isn't 3-A or Low 2-C
Outlined in our new standards for stabilization feats, one of the requirements is to prove that a character's stabilization is equal to the destructive output released by the structure's destruction. So if for example, for stabilization to be 3-A or Low 2-C, the character's sustenance would need to be able to rival the destructive output of a universe being completely destroyed instantly, or immediately. And that's not the case here for Bleach.
The destruction of the worlds brought forth by the Soul Kings death isn’t instant or immediate in any way, shape or form. The best we see and get from the crumbling of the worlds is a dimensional quake trembling through the worlds, and not all of the worlds are even effected the same way. The Soul society violently shakes, Hueco Mundo shakes to a lesser extent, and the world of the living gets a mild long lasting quake where nothing gets destroyed at all.
Counter-argument: "Multiple characters make a point of saying without the Soul King the entire bleach universe would cease to be."
I keep seeing this get passed around, so I'm addressing it here. We seem to be at the point where claims of "the universe will cease to exist!" or anything similar as an end result of what happens is automatically enough to keep 3-A or Low 2-C ratings on the table. It isn't.
We know that "the universe would cease to be" is a thing as the end result of the Soul King no longer being alive to keep that from happening. But that being the conclusion doesn't at all matter here when looking at just how the destruction unfolds. The result of what happens in the end is completely irrelevant against the fact that the destruction itself isn't instant or immediate destruction. The destruction starts instantly / immediately, but it doesn't happen instantly / immediately, as you can see above. The destruction spans over an extensively long timeframe, to the point where nothing dimensionally even begins to deteriorate. And as mentioned, the destruction isn't even treated the same across all of the effected worlds.
The destruction happening here isn't 3-A destruction, let alone Low 2-C levels of it. So the Soul King wouldn't need output on either levels to stop the worlds from crumbling, even if he stabilizes the cosmology with power and not an alternate method. Now to get to the 2nd issue with this upgrade.
The destruction of the worlds that unfolds when they are no longer sustained by the Soul King isn’t 3-A or Low 2-C destruction.
It is not instant. It is not immediate. It immediately begins to happen, but the entire destructive process from start to finish isn’t immediate. It's extended over a long time-frame where nothing dimensionally begins to be destroyed, and hardly anything gets destroyed. The only thing occurring is a dimensional quake that goes through the worlds, and it affects the worlds all differently. The Soul Society violently shakes and only buildings fall over. Hueco Mundo shakes to a lesser extent than the Soul Society. And worst of all, the World of the Living receives only a minor long lasting quake where nothing gets destroyed at all and is not even seen so much as a threat since the scale of it wasn't threatening enough to be reported on news stations or cause a world-wide panic among civilians.
For this sustenance feat to be considered either 3-A or Low 2-C, the destruction that the sustenance would be stopping would need to be instant or immediate to prove that it’s rivaling true 3-A or Low 2-C power, as outlined and required on our new page for Stability Feat Standards. But as its been explained many times, that isn't the case anymore. The sustenance feat is unquantifiable and counts as nothing here. Just unknown amounts of 4-D power that can't be quantified as a tier.
And because the Soul King’s sustenance feat wouldn't count as anything anymore, a large chunk of support the upgrades previously had from it gets lost too. Especially for Yhwach.
Yhwach “Doesn't” Have a Lack of Power
It still doesn't seem to be clear here of what would actually happen by getting rid of the sustenance feats as evidence, so let's go through the now irrelevant stability statements and the irrelevant scaling that comes from then one more time.Failing to grasp this issue here, IMade giving the statements on the Soul King & Yhwach sustaining the worlds means nothing anymore. Both of those stability feats and the statements that support them are completely irrelevant because they are not quantifiable feats anymore. They are no longer 3-A or Low 2-C feats as it was explained reoccuringly in the thread, and as I explained here in final counters again. Why defend the sustanence statements when you can’t defend the sustanance feats as a whole being acceptable? And on that note, we get to the scaling that gets removed by losing the sustenance feats.
Yhwach absorbing the Soul King, Mimihagi, and Ichigo’s power is completely irrelevant to this point now. Why? Because their power is neither 3-A or Low 2-C without the sustenance feat being 3-A or Low 2-C in the first place now.
Just so that what I quoted isn’t missed, i’ll sum up each point.
The Weakened Soul King’s tier is now unquantifiable due to his sustenance feat not being 3-A or Low 2-C anymore. That means:
- Yhwach being stronger than the now unquantifiable Weakened Soul King means he’s just unquantifiably stronger than the tier he is in before the upgrades, High 6-A (or whatever tier 5 feat is left to use if any.)
- Yhwach absorbing the now unquantifiable power of the Weakened Soul King, Mimihagi, and Ichigo only gives Yhwach a now unquantifiable boost in power, making him now, again, only unquantifiably stronger than the tier he was at before the upgrades happened. He’s no longer being boosted with 3-A to Low 2-C power, he’s now getting boosted with unquantifiable levels of power.
- Ichigo, who I mentioned, was only 3-A to Low 2-C due to scaling to Yhwach, who absorbed the Weakened Soul King and Mimihagi’s power, which is now unquantifiable, making Ichigo’s power now unquantifiably above High 6-A instead of 3-A or Low 2-C.
- Yhwach absorbing their power, which would be now unquantifiable, only means Peak Yhwach by the time of the arc’s conclusion does not get amped by 3-A / Low 2-C power anymore, he would be amped by unquantifiable levels of power. Meaning, he doesn't reach either 3-A or Low 2-C with this method of scaling. Peak Yhwach is now just unquantifiably stronger than at least High 6-A and takes away a lot of support from his destruction statements when losing supporting feats and supporting scaling.
- There’s now no supporting feats for the statements.
- There’s now no supporting scaling for the statements.
- Yhwach's statements give no timeframe for his feat.
- Yhwach's statements lack context for the entire destruction process.
Counter Point: “This is not an issue for the wiki, we have even larger tier jumps from other series and characters on the wiki for lesser reasonings.”
We have not. Im willing to bet here that those verses with “lesser reasonings” most likely have actual supporting feats to cement their statements, which is not the case for Bleach here anymore under these circumstances, where quite a lot of support for the upgrade is thrown out the window. More importantly, no verse on this site has climbed fifthteen or so tiers just with the use of statements and statements alone. Some series here don’t even get to climb 2 tiers without going through a huge battle for it, and the people reading this know the kind im talking about. You also keep mentioning other verses as if they wouldn’t just get scrutinized and downgraded too for also being wrong, as I explained at length in earlier counters on why this argument isn’t an actual argument. This “2 wrongs make a right” mentality is flawed and is not a viable counter point.TL;DR- Yhwach would indeed have a lack of power, lack of supporting feats and severe lack of evidence to do his feat, because without the sustenance feat from the Weakened Soul King counting as any tier, Yhwach being superior to him does not grant an upgrade. Him absorbing the Weakened Soul King and Mimihagi doesn’t grant an upgrade either. On top of no timeframe and lack in context, that makes this upgrade for Yhwach much less concrete. Along with IMade himself dodging the argument on why the sustenance feat itself is not quantifiable under the new standards for sustenance feats. This point is entirely null.
Yhwach Planning To Destroy The Garganta
Okay, I'm just going to shoot everyone straight here on this part. What part of Yhwach planning or trying to reverse everything is a feat? Why is it a feat at all? Why is this evidence at all? I'd like everyone to please read, or re-read. my “Character Intentions vs Burden of Proof” response.Planning to do x =/= He can do x. Trying to do x =/= He can do x
These are not feats or actual confirmations. Supporting evidence? Sure. But it being the main evidence to say he can 100% perform this is not granted by it. Because there is a thing called “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” and if much more solid evidence than this can’t be granted solid ratings, what makes anyone think this is enough?
I’ll be saying this one last time for these counters. This isn’t how we measure and give feats here. What matters at the end of the day isn’t character intention, its capability and confirmation. What matters at the end of the day is if the character can be proven or confirmed to be able to do what's claimed, not what the character themselves intend to do.
Reio Eyeball Monsters
Now to address the false equivalencies mentioned here in an attempt to go against how this site has and does treat Low 2-C tiers and tier’s higher than that. Let’s address the elephant in the room that is Dragon Ball Super first.Dragon Ball Super is a very big false equivalence to the issues and inconsistencies at hand here with Bleaches scaling, for a number of different reasons.
First Problem: The Power "Put Forth"
Beerus was massively holding back against every single person named in this example here. He wasn’t even attempting to kill any of them either. Especially Bulma, who he dealt with so freely to the point where he only wanted her put in her place for annoying him and quite obviously wasn’t putting any killing intent or amount of battling power behind his “attack” (aka, a casual slap) on Bulma. The latter isn’t even a fight but a brief confrontation so small that it hardly means anything.This is massively in contrast to what Bleach was doing with Yhwach and the Soul King, because there was killing intent and 0 reason to be holding back power. These Reio Eyeball monsters were made by torrents of Reio’s Reiatsu (torrents already implying a decent deal of power is being applied to create the millions and millions of them that appeared) and were SENT to attack the Shinigami in battle, who were considered their enemies, because Yhwach was in the middle of devouring Reio and wanted to prevent any interference with that from happening. This shows obvious intent in attacking and even killing the opponents as that's what the eyeball creatures were sent to do the moment they appeared. Them sparing the Sternritter also proves that.
There is a difference between Low 2-C energy that's outright being divided up (The Reio Eyeballs) and someone holding back his power by incredible amounts to deal with fodder (Beerus). But more importantly, we get to the biggest issue with this false equivalence here.
Second Problem: Massive Superiority Difference
Last I checked here, getting stomped by an opponent bans you from scaling to them, as opposed to you doing the stomping. Thats' what this problem addresses here.Beerus knocked out Bulma and every single one of the Z-fighters with incredible ease. They did not withstand or counter these casual strikes from Beerus. Their strength, in comparison, was a joke. They stood 0 chance against a casual Beerus. They were outright stomped, which clearly and painfully shows why they aren’t scaling to Low 2-C. They would have to be able to put up an actual fight for that suggestion to be possible, which wasn't the case with them.
Bleach on the other hand does the same thing, but in reverse. The Captain and Assistant Captain class Shinigamis stomped the Reio monsters in power. They were not so much as scratched. They received no damage against them. Their power was completely superior to the strength of the Eyeball monsters on every level and were fodderizing them. They didn’t get stomped by the monsters, the monsters got stomped by them. The only reason they had any difficulty in getting rid of the monsters was due to the sheer difference in numbers, where only Aizen was capable of one shotting them all at once to get rid of every single one. But when actually fighting large gangs of the monsters? Everyone did just fine.
Dragon Ball's case is totally different from Bleaches. Beerus held back incredibly so, attacked with no killing intent or intent to fight, and easily prevailed by stomping who he fought. Yhwach and Reio's Reiatsu is a case where power is being divided up into lower amounts, created creatures from said power to fight enemies, having the intent to attack and kill and the opponents they fought easily stomped them into the ground, with a numbers advantage being the monsters only saving grace until Aizen appeared.
Counter Point: “I literally addressed the eyeballs and stats equivalence for this argument already”
I know very well this was addressed. And I addressed that in my counters against you with what i'm saying right now too. The monsters created by passive leaking reiryoku means nothing because its still ignoring the basics of how Low 2-C power works when its divided up as I explained already. The Reio Monsters would still be Low 2-C in power, weaker by unquantifiable levels, but they do not become so weak that they’d be drop out of Low 2-C. That's not how Low 2-C works.TL;DR- This false equivalence changes nothing about how our site and tiering system treats Low 2-C, and the opposition once again seems to fail in understanding the tier they’re actively trying to defend. Low 2-C power divided up will always be Low 2-C, on lower unquantifiable levels, because this now deals with infinite energy.
Almighty Scaling to AP
This point was addressed at length already and countered in my earlier counters and in my final response to Arc. Leaving it at that.
The Silver Arrow Penetrating Yhwach and Uryu’s Antithesis
No offense intended, but IMade kinda just completely ignored the entire counter argument I already made here on this. Entirely. Let's go through it again.Silver Arrow Being Unreliable
The argument of Uryu using the Antithesis to fire the arrow at Yhwach is headcanon. We know the Antithesis as a whole is a viable counter to the Almighty, but that hardly matters when there’s no direct evidence that Uryu did use Antithesis against Yhwach, especially when he couldn’t have used it against Yhwach.
Uryu’s Antithesis’s abilities work by being able to completely reverse anything that already happened between two targets. Pay close attention to the word TWO.
For Warren’s argument on the Antithesis being used to make sense, Uryu would have needed to have another target present with him to shoot first before reversing what happened to that target onto Yhwach. And there’s no evidence of this being present in that moment. This would be stacking an assumption, ontop of another assumption, in an attempt to counter the silver arrow. Without a second target being proved to be involved, it would be impossible for Uryu to use Antithesis on the arrow and then on Yhwach. As a smaller nitpick, this argument also assumes the Antithesis can transport physical objects when reversing the events, despite Uryu never displaying a feat like this with Antithesis. Going off this, that's stacking 3 assumptions on top of each other.
Adding to the aforementioned points, going off the “crumbs” of the scene, we see smoke coming out of Uryu’s quincy bow immediately after Yhwach is hit with the arrow, while facing Yhwach's direction:
This strongly goes against the argument and supports the arrow being fired normally. Which anyone under normal circumstances would assume that Uryu just up and fired the bow at Yhwach. You’d have to go through a number of different mental gymnastics to deny this being the case, just as the argument on positioning does.
A viable and less argumentative assumption to make, instead of making leaps in logic on Uryu's position, is to blame Kubo for terrible paneling. The depiction of the arrow is displayed as Uryu shooting Yhwach in the back, which has to imply he’s behind Yhwach to do that. The arrow being portrayed as shooting Yhwach from behind, when the implication from Warren’s argument is supposed to be Uryu being in front of Yhwach, makes no sense.
TL;DR- Uryu didn't use Antithesis here, he couldn’t have used Antithesis and no direct evidence says he did. The more viable explanation here is that he just shot Yhwach normally with his bow, which has direct support and takes far less assumptions to make.
You immediately go straight back to saying Uryu is “in front of Yhwach” when I already addressed this in the counters, saying that it's simply Kubo using terrible paneling and it's a far less argumentative argument that doesn't take a bunch of mental gymnastics to assume from your side. As well as the viable possibility that Yhwach simply turned around to face Uryu.
But more importantly, you completely ignored the debunk on Uryu using Antithesis when he couldn't have used it and nothing directly said he did use it. You just returned back to talking about the Antithesis countering Almighty, which we already know. It doesn’t matter if it counters Almighty, what matters is if Uryu was proven to use the Antithesis with the arrow. And from my counters, it isn't.
Like I said, I'm personally fine with not using the arrow anymore either, because it wouldn't change anything here either way, but the amount of dodging done on this part of counters needs to be addressed one more time.
Overall Final TL;DR
This will be somewhat long for final thoughts since this is my last argumentive response here. For my final summary of the arguments here, i’ll put it like this.To show the point of my counters, I'm being very generous here against the opposition. I dropped the original post’s argument on the flow of souls. I dropped the original post’s argument on Reiatsu not being used for the Soul King’s sustenance feat. I dropped the minor point relating to a character’s credibility. Several of these minor points I have dropped, as I list in the beginning of my final counters, and went with the opposite approach for argument's sake. I acknowledge the Soul King sustaining the worlds instead of the flow of souls. I acknowledge the Soul King sustaining the worlds with Reiatsu. I acknowledge these points because of the fact that they do not debunk the downgrade’s argument. I acknowledge them because they ultimately change nothing about the result. To put it like this, IMade’s counters can be said to chip away at the argument by targeting minor points, but it fails to actually cut the head off of the snake. It fails to actually target the main aspect of the entire argument AKM brought. That main aspect being the now invalid sustenance feat from the Soul King.
The Stability Feat(s) are Invalid
One way or another, the stability feat used to support the upgrades is still invalid. It's not a 3-A or Low 2-C quantifiable feat to be used anymore as many counter arguments here have explained why it isn't. It’s neither 3-A or Low 2-C from the fact that the destruction of the worlds isn't 3-A or Low 2-C when no longer sustained by the Soul King. The feat doesn’t fit under our new standards for sustenance feats, making it worth no tier. The destruction is unquantifiable, and the quaking across the worlds, which are separate space-time continuums, are unquantifiable as well, with unknown levels of 4-D power in both cases.With the sustenance feat(s) now unquantifiable, any and all feats and scaling related to it becomes unquantifiable by default. That means Yhwach being stronger than the Weakened Soul King is now unquantifiable. That means Yhwach absorbing his power, and the power of people who scale to him, is now unquantifiable. That means a Ichigos Power is unquantifiable. That means Yhwach absorbing his power is unquantifiable too. And by this, it removes a large amount of support the upgrades previously had.
Adding more fuel to this fire comes the scaling inconsistencies that IMade also still failed to defend the upgrades from. He used false equivalencies in the form of Dragon Ball examples to defend the upgrades from scaling to non-god tier Bleach characters, which I explained away at why it was a false equivalency. Neither he or the people against the downgrade’s seem to have a full understanding of how our tiering system works by arguing against the idea of how Low 2-C power is divided up. This isn’t the same thing as dividing 5-B or 4-A power, tiers that involve quantifiably finite levels of energy that can be divided up and not necessarily be either tier. This is now involving the use of infinite energy, which is present in tiers like Low 2-C and above. Infinite energy being divided is still going to be infinite. Low 2-C power divided up is still going to be Low 2-C, just unquantifiably lower than it was before the division. That is the basics to a tier like Low 2-C, and arguing against this presents a shaky defense against the inconsistencies, like Captains, Lieutenants, and Ichigo’s son being able to destroy energy from the Soul King and Yhwach, power that the opposition is still adamant at keeping Low 2-C. As well as scaling inconsistencies that come with the Almighty scaling to AP that the opposition didn’t address.
IMade himself even admits to not understand this part of the argument on why the stability feat doesn’t count as an acceptable feat anymore, which should show again just exactly how much his argument counters and what it doesn’t counter.
Ultimately, this comes down to only one thing left that can vouch for the upgrades to stay afloat, a thing that is very arguably insufficient: statements.
Are Statements Really Enough for a Fifthteen Tier Climb?
And by that title, this isn’t asking if statements are enough to be given upgrades in general. The question is if statements are enough evidence to accept upgrades to this extent.We all know exactly how statements can work here, for better or worse. Someone’s stated to destroy the universe a dozen times and 3-A can get handed to them. A credible and highly intelligent character makes the point clear that X character can destroy a planet, so people shoot for 5-B upgrades. But the other side of this standard is used just as much to give reasonable skepticism too so we dont inflate characters instantaneously. Someone without supporting feats is stated to be able to destroy galaxies? 3-B isn’t automatically in their reach. A character is said many times to be able to destroy a multiverse, without having precise context factored in? 2-A isn’t instantly put on the table either. The use of statements as evidence, on this site, isn’t a black and white thing to be looked at. Neither is many of our standards. Many things here always come down to being a case by case basis, and they end up in a gray area of what's acceptable and what isn’t. And the case here for Bleach falls right into that gray area.
The Bleach Upgrade Is Shaky
We know the statements given for Yhwach here. His plan to destroy the worlds and undo all of what the Soul King originally did, splitting the original Bleach cosmology. We’re told this multiple times. We know what his intentions were. We know the end result of his goal. And you’d think that him planning this is enough to climb over a dozen tiers right? I don’t. And neither do the people who agree with my side so far. The intentions from the statements are there, but what isn’t there is actual concrete support to validate them as an upgrade.These statements now lack supporting feats with the sustenance feat(s) being invalidated. These statements now lack supporting scaling to push Yhwach at the level needed for his feat. These statements lack a timeframe of how quick or how long Yhwach would be doing his feat, which can’t be determined without using pure speculation. These statements lack context as to how exactly the destruction of the worlds would play out, besides Reiatsu being the method of causing it. These statements lose a lot of support that we’d normally be very strict about and require for statement-based evidence, no matter how often they’re stated. Or no matter how “I will destroy x” blatant the statements are. Statements can be very much not acceptable as any kind of evidence without support like this. What makes Bleach the exception?
On top of all of this, the use of these statements here are pushing for an upgrade on drastic proportions. An upgrade that doesn’t climb just one tier. Not two tiers. Not five tiers. Not even ten tiers. But fifthteen whole tiers all at once. An upgrade that would skyrocket Bleach up nearly a whole quarter of our tiering system in one fell swoop, through the use of these statements and no other evidence. Climbing that many tiers with so little evidence isn’t supposed to be happening here. The higher tiers you climb, the more evidence you're supposed to be giving are needed. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
And let’s be honest here. Many fictional verses here are normally scrutinized so much that they have to fight tooth and nail, go every step of the mile, and fight up-hill battles, just to climb one tier. I won’t name specific examples, but the people reading this know the verses im talking about. Some of the people who have left our site unfortunately give complaints about this very thing. A lot of the time, we make our standards tight and make some of these series fight harder battles to get upgrades the more they try shooting for higher tiers. But that seems to only be half-heartedly applied. Here we are faced with one of the biggest tier climbs to be seen on this site in a while, and our standards should allow statements by itself to be granted this tier climb? An upgrade that we normally would never accept without being far more cautious? Giving far more expectations? Giving far more requirements? Far more skepticism? We all need to be asking ourselves that. We need to be asking if our standards can turn a cheek, and make exceptions like this. We need to ask ourselves, point blank, if this evidence is still enough for an upgrade to this extent before giving the final verdict.
Ultimately, the main arguments in favor of the downgrades were not addressed, or countered, by the people who oppose the downgrade. Minor points they have targeted chip away at the argument, but they fail to debunk the actual main aspect of the downgrade's argument. And it's due to this that the downgrade, overall, still maintains a solid basis that should be taken into great consideration by staff.
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