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Bleach Downgrades (Staff Only)

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Now here's my response to IMade to conlude my final counters here. Sorry again for having this take so long.

Counters for IMade’s Argument:

Points To Ignore:

Ganju’s Credibility

Can’t Fear Your Own World Novel Statement On Flow of Souls

Yhwach’s Stability Statement

Yhwach Stabilizing The Worlds

The Soul King's Stability Done With Reiatsu/Reiryoku


Since these are my final counters here, I want to try keeping this straight to the point instead of dragging the discussion out and show why the argument for the downgrade still holds, even without using any of the minor points above.

Points I Disagree With:

The Threat of the Quincies “Isn't True”

I'll mostly be ignoring this point too, but again, we still have more unfounded speculation being made here. I addressed and called this out already in my previous response to IMade on why this was irrelevant.

The lie about the Soul King made by the royal family has only to do with just that, the Soul King and his role in the Bleach Cosmology. It has nothing to do with Quincies destabilizing the soul cycle by eradicating Hollows permanently or how Shinigami are considered balancers between the worlds.

Giving even further proof on why these 2 things are unrelated, I will be giving this scan here, that comes from the first chapter of Cant Fear Your Own World. When confronting Grimmjow, Harribel and Nelliel, Ichibe claims that they cannot be carelessly purified or eradicated or else the balance between the 3 worlds collapses. Stated directly by a member of Zero Squad who has no reason to be lying to them.

That will be the last thing i'll say on this here. I don't mind dropping this from the argument either, as now i'll be getting to the relevant points for the argument and why the smaller points do not matter.

The Points Im Ignoring & Why They Change Nothing

Now we get to this. Like I said, since I want these last set of counters from me to focus on the main important points, I decided earlier to ignore several minor points from the original post that were only used as supporting points.

The Soul King stabilizing the flow of souls? Reiatsu not being used to sustain the worlds? Ignoring now. I'm perfectly fine with dropping those and going with the the Soul King stabilizing the worlds, and doing so using Reiatsu. I'm fine with those, because they still don’t change a single thing here about this downgrade being able to happen. Im fine with ignoring them because both points are irrelevant. Why are they irrelevant? For one reason that's been repeated this whole thread, and something that IMade himself admits to not being able to discuss.

The stability feats here are unquantifiable and are nowhere near 3-A or Low 2-C. At all. Regardless of what's getting sustained, or how the sustaining is being accomplished, it's useless without a quantifiable rating being able to be put on it. That is the main problem that the downgrade's main argument presents.

The Stability Feat, Once Again, Is Unquantifiable

This explanation has been repeated and re-explained to death in this thread, so i'm just going to quote the explanations given again and again for why the sustenance feats are invalid and do not fall under our newly created standards for Stability Feats:

Reason 4: The Soul King Stabilizing The Cosmology Isn't 3-A or Low 2-C

Outlined in our new standards for stabilization feats, one of the requirements is to prove that a character's stabilization is equal to the destructive output released by the structure's destruction. So if for example, for stabilization to be 3-A or Low 2-C, the character's sustenance would need to be able to rival the destructive output of a universe being completely destroyed instantly, or immediately. And that's not the case here for Bleach.

The destruction of the worlds brought forth by the Soul Kings death isn’t instant or immediate in any way, shape or form. The best we see and get from the crumbling of the worlds is a dimensional quake trembling through the worlds, and not all of the worlds are even effected the same way. The Soul society violently shakes, Hueco Mundo shakes to a lesser extent, and the world of the living gets a mild long lasting quake where nothing gets destroyed at all.

image3.jpg


0616-002.png


Counter-argument: "Multiple characters make a point of saying without the Soul King the entire bleach universe would cease to be."

I keep seeing this get passed around, so I'm addressing it here. We seem to be at the point where claims of "the universe will cease to exist!" or anything similar as an end result of what happens is automatically enough to keep 3-A or Low 2-C ratings on the table. It isn't.

We know that "the universe would cease to be" is a thing as the end result of the Soul King no longer being alive to keep that from happening. But that being the conclusion doesn't at all matter here when looking at just how the destruction unfolds. The result of what happens in the end is completely irrelevant against the fact that the destruction itself isn't instant or immediate destruction. The destruction starts instantly / immediately, but it doesn't happen instantly / immediately, as you can see above. The destruction spans over an extensively long timeframe, to the point where nothing dimensionally even begins to deteriorate. And as mentioned, the destruction isn't even treated the same across all of the effected worlds.

The destruction happening here isn't 3-A destruction, let alone Low 2-C levels of it. So the Soul King wouldn't need output on either levels to stop the worlds from crumbling, even if he stabilizes the cosmology with power and not an alternate method. Now to get to the 2nd issue with this upgrade.
Weakened Reio Fitting The New Stabilization Requirements

Requirement 2
is the only requirement in the new standards that Weakened Reio arguably fits in with, and even that's shaky as I will address in my response to Arc after this.

It is not mentioned “numerous times” that he sustains the worlds. It's mentioned ONCE, through a statement that’s open to more than one interpretation of what it means. Adding to that, if it’s said “numerous times”, then those numerous examples should be very easy to be gathered and SHOWN here. But the lack of evidence should be telling enough on this part of the argument.

That, and Warren just completely missed the points about the quincies and the official english translation from CFYOW stating point blank that the Soul King stabilizes the universal flow of souls


Counter Point: “Creation began falling apart as soon as the Soul King died”

Again, im going to ask if the original post was read entirely or not. This was, again, already addressed in great detail in the original post too, and was explained why that doesn’t matter here. At all. The fact of the matter is, creation STARTED to fall apart immediately. But it did not HAPPEN and FINISH immediately, which is a blatant requirement for 3-A / Low 2-C feats.

Insert Quote

It doesn't matter when creation begins to fall apart here. What matters is how long it takes for creation to be destroyed and the extent of it.

Counter Points:

“Nowhere was there any mention that there was any time to try and fix this problem”
“The CFYOW novel says, the one you showed, that the world will “crumble immediately”. Not “START crumbling immediately”, but crumble immediately."


Okay. Les try and not turn this into a "Sky is stated to be red vs Sky is shown as blue" discussion because outright ignoring what the source material clearly shows us is the only possible way this argument is going to have any standing here.

We don't care about it “not being mentioned”, nor do we “need a mention”, because WE OUTRIGHT SEE the destruction unfolding after the death of the Soul King. Why do we need to pivot to asking for clarification on the timeframe of the destruction? Why pivot to avoiding what the manga can, and does, show us? It is shown to not be immediate. The destruction across the worlds is happening slowly, over an extensively long timeframe, with the worlds all being affected differently from each other with the destruction being absolutely NO WHERE close to the scale of 3-A, let alone Low 2-C. The Soul Society shook violently and had buildings falling over. Hueco Mundo did the same thing more or less. And The Living World literally has no more than a MILD long lasting quake where not a single thing was getting destroyed, which was even noted to be the case ON-PANEL. Trying to get this argument accepted relies on an unsubstantiated reverse burden of proof that the original post already fulfilled, and strongly. The destruction by no means was going to be completed in the span of seconds or minutes to show destruction on that scale was happening in that instance. To ignore this point would be to completely ignore what the manga shows us and rely on statements whose interpretations do not at all align with what’s being depicted and given in the source material. And that, for a lack of a better word, is being intellectually dishonest.

And on that note about the novel statement, a small reminder should be pointed out here that the "Cant Fear Your Own World" novel is considered secondary canon on this site. The manga for Bleach is the source material, and is 100% the primary canon source to be taking evidence from. The very fact that a novel statement about the worlds "likely crumbling immediately" comes from a source of lesser canonicity, and doesn't align with the depiction that the primary canon shows us, should be telling enough to everyone on both sides on why these statements have 0 bearing. And are ultimately irrelevant to use as a counter argument against this downgrade.

4-D Power Being Above Infinite 3-D Power​

Let’s get this out the way now. I don't know where you still get this idea from, or who you got this idea from, but this is absolutely not how our site’s dimensional tiering works here anymore. At all.

We no longer use the idea that X higher dimensions/higher dimensional power is infinitely superior than Y lower dimensions by default anymore. You need to give strong evidence to prove the verse in particular treats higher D things as infinitely superior, otherwise they are treated as unknown / unquantifiable and are not given a tier off of that by itself. This is why someone with even 20-Dimensional power can still be as low as 10-C. Without evidence of it being infinitely superior, it does not grant a tier whatsoever.

So in the case of bleach here, effecting a 4-D structure over a finite amount of time instead of instantly / immediately destroying it is just unquantifiable 4-D energy that grants no tier. It’s not infinitely above 3-D energy by default, and it most certainly isn't Low 2-C without actual feats of it being that strong. The same goes for Yhwach’s plans of destroying the worlds as per Askin’s comment. You need more context than this to reach Low 2-C, and as the original post pointed out, statements by itself shouldnt by any means be enough to give a 15 tier climb. And yes, the WSK’s rating DOES call into the statements validity into question, because we are Feats >>> Statements. And Yhwach not getting a Low 2-C boost by the WSK’s rating anymore and having Reio's reiatsu resisted by non-god tiers would most certainly make the statements questionable.

The destruction of the worlds that unfolds when they are no longer sustained by the Soul King isn’t 3-A or Low 2-C destruction.

It is not instant. It is not immediate. It immediately begins to happen, but the entire destructive process from start to finish isn’t immediate. It's extended over a long time-frame where nothing dimensionally begins to be destroyed, and hardly anything gets destroyed. The only thing occurring is a dimensional quake that goes through the worlds, and it affects the worlds all differently. The Soul Society violently shakes and only buildings fall over. Hueco Mundo shakes to a lesser extent than the Soul Society. And worst of all, the World of the Living receives only a minor long lasting quake where nothing gets destroyed at all and is not even seen so much as a threat since the scale of it wasn't threatening enough to be reported on news stations or cause a world-wide panic among civilians.

For this sustenance feat to be considered either 3-A or Low 2-C, the destruction that the sustenance would be stopping would need to be instant or immediate to prove that it’s rivaling true 3-A or Low 2-C power, as outlined and required on our new page for Stability Feat Standards. But as its been explained many times, that isn't the case anymore. The sustenance feat is unquantifiable and counts as nothing here. Just unknown amounts of 4-D power that can't be quantified as a tier.

And because the Soul King’s sustenance feat wouldn't count as anything anymore, a large chunk of support the upgrades previously had from it gets lost too. Especially for Yhwach.

Yhwach “Doesn't” Have a Lack of Power

It still doesn't seem to be clear here of what would actually happen by getting rid of the sustenance feats as evidence, so let's go through the now irrelevant stability statements and the irrelevant scaling that comes from then one more time.

Failing to grasp this issue here, IMade giving the statements on the Soul King & Yhwach sustaining the worlds means nothing anymore. Both of those stability feats and the statements that support them are completely irrelevant because they are not quantifiable feats anymore. They are no longer 3-A or Low 2-C feats as it was explained reoccuringly in the thread, and as I explained here in final counters again. Why defend the sustanence statements when you can’t defend the sustanance feats as a whole being acceptable? And on that note, we get to the scaling that gets removed by losing the sustenance feats.

Yhwach absorbing the Soul King, Mimihagi, and Ichigo’s power is completely irrelevant to this point now. Why? Because their power is neither 3-A or Low 2-C without the sustenance feat being 3-A or Low 2-C in the first place now.

Yes, the reio eyeball monsters and arrow are glaring issues, but they're minor supporting issues. The main core issue at hand with Yhwach's feat is that now he'd be lacking supporting feats and scaling to validate the statements of him destroying the worlds. Think of it like this. Lets go under the idea that the Weakened Soul King's feat is no longer quantifiable for 3-A or Low 2-C for a second, okay?

With it being unquantifiable, that makes the Weakened Soul King's tier unquantifiable because the feat no longer qualifies for 3-A or Low 2-C. Which means, Yhwach being > the Weakened Soul King and him absorbing his, Mimihagi's, and Ichigo's Quincy/Hollow powers are also unquantifiable, not 3-A or Low 2-C. Which means, Peak Yhwach by the time of the arc's conclusion doesnt get to 3-A or Low 2-C anymore with amps. Peak Yhwach's tier would be unquantifiable when going off of that.

The Reio creatures and Yhwach's Reiatsu being dealt with by non god tiers, and the arrow, are further supporting points, but the stability feat being invalidated was the original post's main core argument for downgrading Yhwach's stats.

With those factored in, the only evidence left now that would support Yhwach's statements, without any supporting feats or supporting scaling being factored in, would purely be the statements themselves.

Thats why, for Yhwach, it would come down to if whether or not statements as the only evidence would be good enough evidence for the god tiers to climb these number of tiers all at once:

  • High 6-A
  • 5-C
  • Low 5-B
  • 5-B
  • 5-A
  • High 5-A
  • Low 4-C
  • 4-C
  • 4-B
  • 4-A
  • 3-C
  • 3-B
  • 3-A
  • High 3-A
  • Low 2-C
More or less, 15 whole different tiers. All given just by the use of statements and no other evidence. The people who are for the downgrade dont think statements are viable enough evidence for an upgrade as drastic as this.

Just so that what I quoted isn’t missed, i’ll sum up each point.

The Weakened Soul King’s tier is now unquantifiable due to his sustenance feat not being 3-A or Low 2-C anymore. That means:
  • Yhwach being stronger than the now unquantifiable Weakened Soul King means he’s just unquantifiably stronger than the tier he is in before the upgrades, High 6-A (or whatever tier 5 feat is left to use if any.)
  • Yhwach absorbing the now unquantifiable power of the Weakened Soul King, Mimihagi, and Ichigo only gives Yhwach a now unquantifiable boost in power, making him now, again, only unquantifiably stronger than the tier he was at before the upgrades happened. He’s no longer being boosted with 3-A to Low 2-C power, he’s now getting boosted with unquantifiable levels of power.
  • Ichigo, who I mentioned, was only 3-A to Low 2-C due to scaling to Yhwach, who absorbed the Weakened Soul King and Mimihagi’s power, which is now unquantifiable, making Ichigo’s power now unquantifiably above High 6-A instead of 3-A or Low 2-C.
  • Yhwach absorbing their power, which would be now unquantifiable, only means Peak Yhwach by the time of the arc’s conclusion does not get amped by 3-A / Low 2-C power anymore, he would be amped by unquantifiable levels of power. Meaning, he doesn't reach either 3-A or Low 2-C with this method of scaling. Peak Yhwach is now just unquantifiably stronger than at least High 6-A and takes away a lot of support from his destruction statements when losing supporting feats and supporting scaling.
On top of those issues, a reminder point should be made here that there is also no full context as to how the destruction feat from Yhwach’s statements would unfold, as we never see it happen outside of him affecting what we see is affected, the Seireitei in the Soul Society. And there’s no timeframe for the feat happening either. Besides Reiatsu being the method to do the feat, the statements have a lot of unknown factors now:
  • There’s now no supporting feats for the statements.
  • There’s now no supporting scaling for the statements.
  • Yhwach's statements give no timeframe for his feat.
  • Yhwach's statements lack context for the entire destruction process.
And yet, a couple of statements with several unknown factors are enough to cement a drastic upgrade for Yhwach when his stats wouldn't be 3-A to Low 2-C with any other evidence?


Counter Point: “This is not an issue for the wiki, we have even larger tier jumps from other series and characters on the wiki for lesser reasonings.”

We have not. Im willing to bet here that those verses with “lesser reasonings” most likely have actual supporting feats to cement their statements, which is not the case for Bleach here anymore under these circumstances, where quite a lot of support for the upgrade is thrown out the window. More importantly, no verse on this site has climbed fifthteen or so tiers just with the use of statements and statements alone. Some series here don’t even get to climb 2 tiers without going through a huge battle for it, and the people reading this know the kind im talking about. You also keep mentioning other verses as if they wouldn’t just get scrutinized and downgraded too for also being wrong, as I explained at length in earlier counters on why this argument isn’t an actual argument. This “2 wrongs make a right” mentality is flawed and is not a viable counter point.

TL;DR- Yhwach would indeed have a lack of power, lack of supporting feats and severe lack of evidence to do his feat, because without the sustenance feat from the Weakened Soul King counting as any tier, Yhwach being superior to him does not grant an upgrade. Him absorbing the Weakened Soul King and Mimihagi doesn’t grant an upgrade either. On top of no timeframe and lack in context, that makes this upgrade for Yhwach much less concrete. Along with IMade himself dodging the argument on why the sustenance feat itself is not quantifiable under the new standards for sustenance feats. This point is entirely null.

Yhwach Planning To Destroy The Garganta

Okay, I'm just going to shoot everyone straight here on this part. What part of Yhwach planning or trying to reverse everything is a feat? Why is it a feat at all? Why is this evidence at all? I'd like everyone to please read, or re-read. my “Character Intentions vs Burden of Proof” response.

Planning to do x =/= He can do x. Trying to do x =/= He can do x

These are not feats or actual confirmations. Supporting evidence? Sure. But it being the main evidence to say he can 100% perform this is not granted by it. Because there is a thing called “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” and if much more solid evidence than this can’t be granted solid ratings, what makes anyone think this is enough?

I’ll be saying this one last time for these counters. This isn’t how we measure and give feats here. What matters at the end of the day isn’t character intention, its capability and confirmation. What matters at the end of the day is if the character can be proven or confirmed to be able to do what's claimed, not what the character themselves intend to do.

Reio Eyeball Monsters

Now to address the false equivalencies mentioned here in an attempt to go against how this site has and does treat Low 2-C tiers and tier’s higher than that. Let’s address the elephant in the room that is Dragon Ball Super first.

Dragon Ball Super is a very big false equivalence to the issues and inconsistencies at hand here with Bleaches scaling, for a number of different reasons.

First Problem: The Power "Put Forth"

Beerus was massively holding back against every single person named in this example here. He wasn’t even attempting to kill any of them either. Especially Bulma, who he dealt with so freely to the point where he only wanted her put in her place for annoying him and quite obviously wasn’t putting any killing intent or amount of battling power behind his “attack” (aka, a casual slap) on Bulma. The latter isn’t even a fight but a brief confrontation so small that it hardly means anything.

This is massively in contrast to what Bleach was doing with Yhwach and the Soul King, because there was killing intent and 0 reason to be holding back power. These Reio Eyeball monsters were made by torrents of Reio’s Reiatsu (torrents already implying a decent deal of power is being applied to create the millions and millions of them that appeared) and were SENT to attack the Shinigami in battle, who were considered their enemies, because Yhwach was in the middle of devouring Reio and wanted to prevent any interference with that from happening. This shows obvious intent in attacking and even killing the opponents as that's what the eyeball creatures were sent to do the moment they appeared. Them sparing the Sternritter also proves that.

There is a difference between Low 2-C energy that's outright being divided up (The Reio Eyeballs) and someone holding back his power by incredible amounts to deal with fodder (Beerus). But more importantly, we get to the biggest issue with this false equivalence here.

Second Problem: Massive Superiority Difference

Last I checked here, getting stomped by an opponent bans you from scaling to them, as opposed to you doing the stomping. Thats' what this problem addresses here.

Beerus knocked out Bulma and every single one of the Z-fighters with incredible ease. They did not withstand or counter these casual strikes from Beerus. Their strength, in comparison, was a joke. They stood 0 chance against a casual Beerus. They were outright stomped, which clearly and painfully shows why they aren’t scaling to Low 2-C. They would have to be able to put up an actual fight for that suggestion to be possible, which wasn't the case with them.

Bleach on the other hand does the same thing, but in reverse. The Captain and Assistant Captain class Shinigamis stomped the Reio monsters in power. They were not so much as scratched. They received no damage against them. Their power was completely superior to the strength of the Eyeball monsters on every level and were fodderizing them. They didn’t get stomped by the monsters, the monsters got stomped by them. The only reason they had any difficulty in getting rid of the monsters was due to the sheer difference in numbers, where only Aizen was capable of one shotting them all at once to get rid of every single one. But when actually fighting large gangs of the monsters? Everyone did just fine.

Dragon Ball's case is totally different from Bleaches. Beerus held back incredibly so, attacked with no killing intent or intent to fight, and easily prevailed by stomping who he fought. Yhwach and Reio's Reiatsu is a case where power is being divided up into lower amounts, created creatures from said power to fight enemies, having the intent to attack and kill and the opponents they fought easily stomped them into the ground, with a numbers advantage being the monsters only saving grace until Aizen appeared.

Counter Point: “I literally addressed the eyeballs and stats equivalence for this argument already”

I know very well this was addressed. And I addressed that in my counters against you with what i'm saying right now too. The monsters created by passive leaking reiryoku means nothing because its still ignoring the basics of how Low 2-C power works when its divided up as I explained already. The Reio Monsters would still be Low 2-C in power, weaker by unquantifiable levels, but they do not become so weak that they’d be drop out of Low 2-C. That's not how Low 2-C works.

TL;DR- This false equivalence changes nothing about how our site and tiering system treats Low 2-C, and the opposition once again seems to fail in understanding the tier they’re actively trying to defend. Low 2-C power divided up will always be Low 2-C, on lower unquantifiable levels, because this now deals with infinite energy.

Almighty Scaling to AP


This point was addressed at length already and countered in my earlier counters and in my final response to Arc. Leaving it at that.

The Silver Arrow Penetrating Yhwach and Uryu’s Antithesis

No offense intended, but IMade kinda just completely ignored the entire counter argument I already made here on this. Entirely. Let's go through it again.

Silver Arrow Being Unreliable

The argument of Uryu using the Antithesis to fire the arrow at Yhwach is headcanon. We know the Antithesis as a whole is a viable counter to the Almighty, but that hardly matters when there’s no direct evidence that Uryu did use Antithesis against Yhwach, especially when he couldn’t have used it against Yhwach.

Uryu’s Antithesis’s abilities work by being able to completely reverse anything that already happened between two targets. Pay close attention to the word TWO.

0679-009.png


For Warren’s argument on the Antithesis being used to make sense, Uryu would have needed to have another target present with him to shoot first before reversing what happened to that target onto Yhwach. And there’s no evidence of this being present in that moment. This would be stacking an assumption, ontop of another assumption, in an attempt to counter the silver arrow. Without a second target being proved to be involved, it would be impossible for Uryu to use Antithesis on the arrow and then on Yhwach. As a smaller nitpick, this argument also assumes the Antithesis can transport physical objects when reversing the events, despite Uryu never displaying a feat like this with Antithesis. Going off this, that's stacking 3 assumptions on top of each other.

Adding to the aforementioned points, going off the “crumbs” of the scene, we see smoke coming out of Uryu’s quincy bow immediately after Yhwach is hit with the arrow, while facing Yhwach's direction:

image0.jpg


This strongly goes against the argument and supports the arrow being fired normally. Which anyone under normal circumstances would assume that Uryu just up and fired the bow at Yhwach. You’d have to go through a number of different mental gymnastics to deny this being the case, just as the argument on positioning does.

A viable and less argumentative assumption to make, instead of making leaps in logic on Uryu's position, is to blame Kubo for terrible paneling. The depiction of the arrow is displayed as Uryu shooting Yhwach in the back, which has to imply he’s behind Yhwach to do that. The arrow being portrayed as shooting Yhwach from behind, when the implication from Warren’s argument is supposed to be Uryu being in front of Yhwach, makes no sense.

TL;DR- Uryu didn't use Antithesis here, he couldn’t have used Antithesis and no direct evidence says he did. The more viable explanation here is that he just shot Yhwach normally with his bow, which has direct support and takes far less assumptions to make.

You immediately go straight back to saying Uryu is “in front of Yhwach” when I already addressed this in the counters, saying that it's simply Kubo using terrible paneling and it's a far less argumentative argument that doesn't take a bunch of mental gymnastics to assume from your side. As well as the viable possibility that Yhwach simply turned around to face Uryu.

But more importantly, you completely ignored the debunk on Uryu using Antithesis when he couldn't have used it and nothing directly said he did use it. You just returned back to talking about the Antithesis countering Almighty, which we already know. It doesn’t matter if it counters Almighty, what matters is if Uryu was proven to use the Antithesis with the arrow. And from my counters, it isn't.

Like I said, I'm personally fine with not using the arrow anymore either, because it wouldn't change anything here either way, but the amount of dodging done on this part of counters needs to be addressed one more time.

Overall Final TL;DR

This will be somewhat long for final thoughts since this is my last argumentive response here. For my final summary of the arguments here, i’ll put it like this.

To show the point of my counters, I'm being very generous here against the opposition. I dropped the original post’s argument on the flow of souls. I dropped the original post’s argument on Reiatsu not being used for the Soul King’s sustenance feat. I dropped the minor point relating to a character’s credibility. Several of these minor points I have dropped, as I list in the beginning of my final counters, and went with the opposite approach for argument's sake. I acknowledge the Soul King sustaining the worlds instead of the flow of souls. I acknowledge the Soul King sustaining the worlds with Reiatsu. I acknowledge these points because of the fact that they do not debunk the downgrade’s argument. I acknowledge them because they ultimately change nothing about the result. To put it like this, IMade’s counters can be said to chip away at the argument by targeting minor points, but it fails to actually cut the head off of the snake. It fails to actually target the main aspect of the entire argument AKM brought. That main aspect being the now invalid sustenance feat from the Soul King.

The Stability Feat(s) are Invalid​

One way or another, the stability feat used to support the upgrades is still invalid. It's not a 3-A or Low 2-C quantifiable feat to be used anymore as many counter arguments here have explained why it isn't. It’s neither 3-A or Low 2-C from the fact that the destruction of the worlds isn't 3-A or Low 2-C when no longer sustained by the Soul King. The feat doesn’t fit under our new standards for sustenance feats, making it worth no tier. The destruction is unquantifiable, and the quaking across the worlds, which are separate space-time continuums, are unquantifiable as well, with unknown levels of 4-D power in both cases.

With the sustenance feat(s) now unquantifiable, any and all feats and scaling related to it becomes unquantifiable by default. That means Yhwach being stronger than the Weakened Soul King is now unquantifiable. That means Yhwach absorbing his power, and the power of people who scale to him, is now unquantifiable. That means a Ichigos Power is unquantifiable. That means Yhwach absorbing his power is unquantifiable too. And by this, it removes a large amount of support the upgrades previously had.

Adding more fuel to this fire comes the scaling inconsistencies that IMade also still failed to defend the upgrades from. He used false equivalencies in the form of Dragon Ball examples to defend the upgrades from scaling to non-god tier Bleach characters, which I explained away at why it was a false equivalency. Neither he or the people against the downgrade’s seem to have a full understanding of how our tiering system works by arguing against the idea of how Low 2-C power is divided up. This isn’t the same thing as dividing 5-B or 4-A power, tiers that involve quantifiably finite levels of energy that can be divided up and not necessarily be either tier. This is now involving the use of infinite energy, which is present in tiers like Low 2-C and above. Infinite energy being divided is still going to be infinite. Low 2-C power divided up is still going to be Low 2-C, just unquantifiably lower than it was before the division. That is the basics to a tier like Low 2-C, and arguing against this presents a shaky defense against the inconsistencies, like Captains, Lieutenants, and Ichigo’s son being able to destroy energy from the Soul King and Yhwach, power that the opposition is still adamant at keeping Low 2-C. As well as scaling inconsistencies that come with the Almighty scaling to AP that the opposition didn’t address.

IMade himself even admits to not understand this part of the argument on why the stability feat doesn’t count as an acceptable feat anymore, which should show again just exactly how much his argument counters and what it doesn’t counter.

Ultimately, this comes down to only one thing left that can vouch for the upgrades to stay afloat, a thing that is very arguably insufficient: statements.

Are Statements Really Enough for a Fifthteen Tier Climb?

And by that title, this isn’t asking if statements are enough to be given upgrades in general. The question is if statements are enough evidence to accept upgrades to this extent.

We all know exactly how statements can work here, for better or worse. Someone’s stated to destroy the universe a dozen times and 3-A can get handed to them. A credible and highly intelligent character makes the point clear that X character can destroy a planet, so people shoot for 5-B upgrades. But the other side of this standard is used just as much to give reasonable skepticism too so we dont inflate characters instantaneously. Someone without supporting feats is stated to be able to destroy galaxies? 3-B isn’t automatically in their reach. A character is said many times to be able to destroy a multiverse, without having precise context factored in? 2-A isn’t instantly put on the table either. The use of statements as evidence, on this site, isn’t a black and white thing to be looked at. Neither is many of our standards. Many things here always come down to being a case by case basis, and they end up in a gray area of what's acceptable and what isn’t. And the case here for Bleach falls right into that gray area.

The Bleach Upgrade Is Shaky​

We know the statements given for Yhwach here. His plan to destroy the worlds and undo all of what the Soul King originally did, splitting the original Bleach cosmology. We’re told this multiple times. We know what his intentions were. We know the end result of his goal. And you’d think that him planning this is enough to climb over a dozen tiers right? I don’t. And neither do the people who agree with my side so far. The intentions from the statements are there, but what isn’t there is actual concrete support to validate them as an upgrade.

These statements now lack supporting feats with the sustenance feat(s) being invalidated. These statements now lack supporting scaling to push Yhwach at the level needed for his feat. These statements lack a timeframe of how quick or how long Yhwach would be doing his feat, which can’t be determined without using pure speculation. These statements lack context as to how exactly the destruction of the worlds would play out, besides Reiatsu being the method of causing it. These statements lose a lot of support that we’d normally be very strict about and require for statement-based evidence, no matter how often they’re stated. Or no matter how “I will destroy x” blatant the statements are. Statements can be very much not acceptable as any kind of evidence without support like this. What makes Bleach the exception?

On top of all of this, the use of these statements here are pushing for an upgrade on drastic proportions. An upgrade that doesn’t climb just one tier. Not two tiers. Not five tiers. Not even ten tiers. But fifthteen whole tiers all at once. An upgrade that would skyrocket Bleach up nearly a whole quarter of our tiering system in one fell swoop, through the use of these statements and no other evidence. Climbing that many tiers with so little evidence isn’t supposed to be happening here. The higher tiers you climb, the more evidence you're supposed to be giving are needed. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

And let’s be honest here. Many fictional verses here are normally scrutinized so much that they have to fight tooth and nail, go every step of the mile, and fight up-hill battles, just to climb one tier. I won’t name specific examples, but the people reading this know the verses im talking about. Some of the people who have left our site unfortunately give complaints about this very thing. A lot of the time, we make our standards tight and make some of these series fight harder battles to get upgrades the more they try shooting for higher tiers. But that seems to only be half-heartedly applied. Here we are faced with one of the biggest tier climbs to be seen on this site in a while, and our standards should allow statements by itself to be granted this tier climb? An upgrade that we normally would never accept without being far more cautious? Giving far more expectations? Giving far more requirements? Far more skepticism? We all need to be asking ourselves that. We need to be asking if our standards can turn a cheek, and make exceptions like this. We need to ask ourselves, point blank, if this evidence is still enough for an upgrade to this extent before giving the final verdict.

Ultimately, the main arguments in favor of the downgrades were not addressed, or countered, by the people who oppose the downgrade. Minor points they have targeted chip away at the argument, but they fail to debunk the actual main aspect of the downgrade's argument. And it's due to this that the downgrade, overall, still maintains a solid basis that should be taken into great consideration by staff.
 
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Ngl my post ended up being wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy longer than intended ~8500 words... I'll be posting it soon, currently in communication with IMade.

Edit: Still waiting for IMade so I'm gonna call it quits for tonight, I will be posting it tomorrow regardless tho (post will be up in less than 23 hours).
 
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I'm going to post my argument now since I'm tired and want to go to bed soon. IMade will be posting his response soon fear not lol I was in contact with him and he's working on it.

Tyri asked to include this forward and it serves as a good summary to what Warren and I address in depth so I'll start with it:

Before addressing the points I want to start with this, since actually is stated multiple time by opposition that Yhwach “lack of power”/no support feat to his final feat and so on (implicity admitting that his feat is legit but for some reason we do not count it because of lack of support) also using as an excuse jump of tier (which is not an argument whatsoever), since I could list multiple verse jumping to universal from planet or below, because what matter is the intent of the author and what is wrote in the manga not the disbelief of people. Also debunking the misconception that is not supported:
  • Yhwach is stated to be the child or the manifestation of the Soul King.
  • Yhwach absorbed the WSK and Mimihagi, and was stated to be above the Soul King
  • Yhwach was busting everything as stated by the mangaka. He wanted to undo Soul king creation. Doing that with Raw power.
  • This is stated by him again after his death, he literally stated he was serious and was actually destroying everything. And also stated other time in the manga.
  • After obtaining soul king powers, he stated he is gonna do his plan with his own power now.
  • Ichigo never questioned Yhwach capabilities to do so.
  • Aizen, Shunsui, everyone knowledgeable in the verse never questioned Yhwach power.
  • Prime Soul King existence is a SUPPORT of Yhwach feat, because there was nothing in terms of dimensions, life and death, before the soul king created the cosmology. And Yhwach reached that kind of power.
  • Even if stabilization is Unknown, is still a support feat since that actually involve universal structures being destroyed.
  • Is stated that Yhwach SPIRITUAL ENERGY/REIRYOKU is so massive that can stabilize the world, and that also support him, destroying everything.

Without further adieu here lies 8802 words enjoy reading it (I didn't enjoy writing it):


Every scan in there is hyperlinked to text, so there shouldn't be an issue viewing scans, and anyone with an internet browser has access to Google Docs, so viewing the doc shouldn't be an issue either (it is open such that anyone with this link can view it, let me know if there are any issues accessing it, I would've copied and pasted it but it format transferred incorrectly).

IMade's post should arrive within the coming hours, I do request you wait for him (he says he is putting a lot of effort into making it digestible and easy to understand, so I think it'll prove valuable).
 
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Originally I was going to do just a final statement as a conclusion (I have purposefully not read Kukui's last comment as I think closing statements should be made as you explaining your position and why it should be agreed upon), but I will also try to do a small explanation of the Bleach cosmology to make digesting all this easier.

This is long, grab some popcorn.






The Bleach Cosmology

The Bleach Cosmology is actually quite easy to understand thanks to it being mostly presented in diagrams and also described many times in great details about it's specifications. I find explaining the cosmology to be essential to fully understanding the Bleachverse as a whole as it seems many are confused in regards to it.

In the Bleach Cosmology there are primarily 6 dimensions, and an unknowable pocket dimensions. These dimensions are The World of the Living (the real universe), Soul Society, Hueco Mundo, Dangai, Hell, and Garganta. The pocket dimensions are vast and range from potentially planetary to smaller than a room in size.

I would like to go over each individual dimension and explain their purpose and potentially their size with scans to demonstrate.
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The World of the Living

The World of the Living is simply the real universe of the Bleachverse, it is the dimension that houses the planet Earth where all living souls and Pluses reside in.


Soul Society

The dimension housing the world of the Soul Reapers. This dimension is shown holding a real starry night sky, it potentially also houses a galaxy which was up for debate in the past. This dimension is also
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described as being the other side of the same coin as The World of the Living.


Dangai

A dimension that directly connects Soul Society and the World of the Living. This dimension is it's own space and time, with a time that flows much faster than the time in the other dimensions.


Hueco Mundo

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The dimension housing the Hollows. It is a dimension with an endless night and a moon in the sky. It is also described as a region between The World of the Living and Soul Society.


Garganta
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A dimension of Reishi that houses all the dimensions in Bleach. It is the space between all dimensions and exists around them all. The real universe lies inside of it alongside all the other dimensions.
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Hell

A dimension where evil souls go after death. It's unknown on it's size or what's inside besides it's guardians and evil souls.











Why Is This Important?

This is important to understand due to it being the crux of the matter, the Soul King's creation and maintaining of the Bleachverse's existence.

The Soul King made all these dimensions and worlds except for the universe, it already existed before the Soul King. The Soul King however made the Garganta that does surround the entire universe and the other dimensions as shown above.

I will now move forward to explain my stance in my final closing statement.






What Is The Evidence That The Soul King Made Everything And Stabilizes It?

This is fairly simple thanks to the Bleach novel, Can't Fear Your Own World Volume 3. This novel directly explains the Soul King's actions, creations, and stabilization of the Bleachverse:

The Tsunayashiro ancestor was afraid that this mighty power would someday be used against them.

The ancestor of the opposing clan said that it was necessary to have a world that would serve as the lid to cover up the 'pit' that would later be known as '
Hell'.

...

But their widely varying motives strangely led to the same goal in the end; to split the world. A world of order, a world of implementation, also a paradise of sand where Hollows from two sides would end up in.


Perhaps another form of the world would be born, but the essential thing was the clear separation the world of the 'living' from the world of the 'dead'.

In order to turn this division into a reality, what was required was the power of a man who transcended everything.

"Although the Shiba ancestor tried to talk the Tsunayashiro ancestor out of it, it is said that the Rei-o was tied up and sealed within the crystal. The rest of Soul Society's history was witnessed directly by myself."

A man who was later named the Rei-o.

Using his powers of the Almighty as the 'keystone', the five of them created the foundation of a new world.
Soul Society, the Material World and Hueco Mundo. Life and death were separated. The Soul Cycle ushered in a new era.
...

"But the Tsunayashiro ancestor doubted even this non-resistance. Afraid of the Rei-o escaping from his seal by himself; he neither wanted the Rei-o to live nor did he want to kill him. Continuing this helix of contradictions, the Right Arm of 'stagnation' and the Left Arm of 'Progress' were torn off."

...

"Well; I suppose that still wasn't enough. The ancestors; including Tsunayashiro; gouged out his heart and internal organs; and dismembered both his legs. Doing so, they destroyed his power; creating a king convenient for themselves."

...

"Convenient indeed. He continues to remain the lynchpin without ever having a say in the workings of this world, while the real business is carried out by others."


- Can't Fear Your Own World Volume 3

What About Garganta and the Dangai?

It's true that it's not directly stated that the Soul King made these dimensions, but context tells us that he obviously did.

The purpose of the Garganta and the Dangai as shown above in the scans I provided directly state they are connecting the different dimensions. They couldn't have existed before their connecting dimensions were made. Therefore, the Soul King had to have made them and is stabilizing them as well.

I'm Not Convinced!
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Aight, listen here ya lil' shit?

Okay! Further proof that the Soul King made these dimensions lies in the collapse of the Bleachverse! When the Bleachverse was collapsing, it is directly stated that the Garganta would also be destroyed along with the dimensions.

Given the Garganta's property as connecting the dimensions together and surrounding them all, it's also obvious with the context of the destruction of the worlds and dimensions that the Garganta would also fall too as it's a connecting factor.


Ganju Isn't a Credible Source!

This train of thought does not make sense in context with the scene and with Ganju's background as well.

1) Ganju is a member of the Royal Families, the Shiba Clan.

The Royal Families are one of the only members of the Soul Society that know the true past of the Soul Society and about the Soul King given their connection with him in the past as I showed above. This is why we see Yoruichi display knowledge of the collapse of the worlds and dimensions as if it's common knowledge (she even performs a spell on the Soul King's corpse with Mimihagi to keep him as the lynchpin), because she too is a member of a Royal Family, the Shihoin Clan. Ganju would be a reliable source on the Soul King because of his relation.

2) Ganju knew about the plans and dangers
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Before Ganju makes this statement, Yoruichi actually explains all the plans and details to Ichigo, it's Ichigo who was the only one who didn't know what was truly going on in that room (Ganju was in the room). If Ganju was wrong, then literally anyone in the room would have corrected him since everyone else knew beforehand or from Yoruichi's explanation.

Yukio (who Ganju makes the statement to), doesn't correct Ganju but replies to Ganju's statement of the Garganta's destruction as a result of them losing by asking if they're going to lose then.

Even Grimmjow knew about Hueco Mundo's destruction when's been in Hueco Mundo all this time until finally being in the same room as everyone.

So there is no reason Ganju would not know what is going on nor be misinformed.

3) Why would Kubo put this in the manga if it's not true?

This is a serious scene right before the main cast believes they're going to teleport right in front of Yhwach. That would be such a reach to claim it as not true given the gravity of the situation.

Still Not Convinced Though!

That's fine because there are other pieces of evidence connecting the Soul King to their creation, the largest point being Reishi. As the scans above show, the Garganta is a dimension of turbulent Reishi and the Dangai is a spiritual dimension as well of Reishi beings. This is important because Reishi did not exist before the Soul King, the Soul King made Reishi and introduced it to the verse:

"But before long, Hollows began devouring humans. And so, the circulation ceased. All those souls came together to form a gigantic Hollow, a Menos. The world became completely still. But you know, it's a strange thing. A new life came into being. As if the world itself naturally rejected it, he destroyed it and turned it into sands of reishi; thus, circulation began once again."

"That was the Rei-o of the first era...?"

One of the new recruits involuntarily whispered; but he hurriedly closed his mouth for fear of having said something profane. But the monk nodded and told him not to worry.

"That's right. Others; with special powers, including myself; appeared, but it is fair to say that the Rei-o stood out; his powers very close to omnipotence and omniscience."

- Can't Fear Your Own World Volume 3

The Garganta and Dangai could not be Reishi dimensions unless the Soul King made them. They have to be his creations to be Reishi filled and Reishi based, it's impossible otherwise.

Is There More Evidence He Stabilizes Everything? I Need More Proof!

Was the Can't Fear Your Own World Volume 3 quote really not enough proof?
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Of course there is more evidence!


The largest piece of evidence is the fact that everything starts destabilizing once the Soul King is killed! Since he is no longer stabilizing the worlds, they start falling apart, evidence of his maintaining of the worlds' and dimensions' existence since his death causes destabilization!









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This is even further supported when a replacement comes to save the Bleachverse. The character Mimihagi replaces the Soul King momentarily, upon replacing the Soul King all the destabilization ends and everything in the Bleachverse is stabilized once more.

The word stability is even used in the description.










Wait, that's not enough evidence?
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Well, Yhwach kills Mimihagi which causes the Bleachverse to destabilize again! And then Yhwach absorbs the Soul King and Mimihagi, replacing them and stabilizes the Bleachverse himself!












I'm Not Convinced!

That's annoying, but thankfully there is more evidence!

It's directly stated in Volume 1 of Can't Fear Your Own World that Yhwach's power had saved the worlds from destruction:

"But luckily for the boy, Yhwach had all of the Reio's power. That guaranteed that the Soul Society would escape destruction whether or not Ichigo Kurosaki won."

- Can't Fear Your Own World Volume 1

So without a doubt, stabilization and destabilization is within the Soul King's own power which Yhwach directly scales.


Is that not enough? Well thankfully there is another quote from the other Bleach novel, We Do knot Always Love You:

"After Kurosaki Ichigo had triumphed over Yhwach, his remains were transported to the Soul King Palace at the hands of Squad Zero soldiers. Hundreds of binding seals were placed around the corpse which still contained a vast amount of Reiryoku even after death, by storing it as the new lynchpin in the Soul King Greater Palace area, the world was spared from collapse."

- We Do knot Always Love You

It is an undeniable amount of evidence.


Doesn't the Soul King Stabilize Souls and Not the Worlds/Dimensions?

This is a misconception and misinterpretation of texts!

Many of the quotes and scans I have posted above already show that the Soul King's power (through Reiatsu and Reiryoku) is what is stabilizing the worlds. Therefore, the stabilization of souls is a misunderstanding.


I'm Not Convinced!
1yDndBX.png


Yhwach himself directly states that the Soul King stabilizes the worlds directly, and that the flow of souls is not what he is doing!

Wait, That's Not What the Text Says at All?!

That is indeed what the text is saying, allow me to break down the English for you all to understand:

"Reio was created to stabilize the Soul Society, where massive numbers of Konpaku pass through!"

-Reio is the subject.

-Reio being created is the verb.

-The complete thought of the sentence is it's purpose, that the Reio was created to stabilize the Soul Society.

However, the sentence is split down the middle by the comma, the purpose of the comma is it's adding additional information to the sentence (this is called a parenthetical expression/comma). It's not really "parenthetical" here as it's moved to the end of the sentence. Thus there is no second comma as it's replaced with the period. The point of this comma and expression is it's placed after what it is providing extra information for... and it's placed after Soul Society.


The complete thought was Reio's creation being for stabilization, the parenthetical comma was additional information about Soul Society's Konpaku. The Konpaku amount has nothing to do with the Soul King, it has to do with Soul Society.


Still Not Convinced Though!

Not a problem, let's go back an refresh the history of the Soul King:

Perhaps another form of the world would be born, but the essential thing was the clear separation the world of the 'living' from the world of the 'dead'.

In order to turn this division into a reality, what was required was the power of a man who transcended everything.

"Although the Shiba ancestor tried to talk the Tsunayashiro ancestor out of it, it is said that the Rei-o was tied up and sealed within the crystal. The rest of Soul Society's history was witnessed directly by myself."

A man who was later named the Rei-o.

Using his powers of the Almighty as the 'keystone', the five of them created the foundation of a new world.
Soul Society, the Material World and Hueco Mundo. Life and death were separated. The Soul Cycle ushered in a new era.
...

"But the Tsunayashiro ancestor doubted even this non-resistance. Afraid of the Rei-o escaping from his seal by himself; he neither wanted the Rei-o to live nor did he want to kill him. Continuing this helix of contradictions, the Right Arm of 'stagnation' and the Left Arm of 'Progress' were torn off."

...

"Well; I suppose that still wasn't enough. The ancestors; including Tsunayashiro; gouged out his heart and internal organs; and dismembered both his legs. Doing so, they destroyed his power; creating a king convenient for themselves."

...

"Convenient indeed. He continues to remain the lynchpin without ever having a say in the workings of this world, while the real business is carried out by others."


- Can't Fear Your Own World Volume 3

There is no mention in the history of the Soul King of him stabilizing souls. The description explicitly states that the Soul King made the worlds and maintains them.

Then Why Does the Novel Say The Soul King Stabilizes Souls?
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This is another misunderstanding!

In the exact same page that this statement is made it is revealed that the character who delivered the statement was lying to the protagonist of the excerpt. This statement is explicitly not reliable nor true.



If this isn't enough, the literal next page has the protagonist that was lie to research about the Soul King and the past to find the truth. It is literally revealed and stated that the character who delivered the statement was actually lying, the truth was withheld.


Then Why Were Quincies a Threat to the Soul Cycle?

Again, the flow of souls was a lie perpetrated by the older Heads of the Royal Family as the above pages show. There is no balance of souls that must be maintained to save the universe, that was a proven lie. The Soul Cycle is real, as in people die, become souls, and then flow into the afterlife worlds (Hell, Hueco Mundo, or Soul Society). The Soul King did make that and can manipulate souls, but this does not stabilize the worlds.


Any Supporting Evidence As Well?

Senna from the canon Bleach movie, Memories of Nobody.

In the movie, Senna actually stops the collision of the Soul Society and The World of the Living dimensions by using an unknown amount of Blanks to cause an explosion to push back the dimension from colliding. Blanks are souls, and the Soul King can manipulate souls since he did create it all as shown above in the previous scans.



How Does the Soul King/Yhwach Do It?

With their Reiatsu and Reiryoku silly, did you not read the quotes I posted?

"After Kurosaki Ichigo had triumphed over Yhwach, his remains were transported to the Soul King Palace at the hands of Squad Zero soldiers. Hundreds of binding seals were placed around the corpse which still contained a vast amount of Reiryoku even after death, by storing it as the new lynchpin in the Soul King Greater Palace area, the world was spared from collapse."

- We Do knot Always Love You

Reiryoku is the key word in this one.

"But luckily for the boy, Yhwach had all of the Reio's power. That guaranteed that the Soul Society would escape destruction whether or not Ichigo Kurosaki won."

- Can't Fear Your Own World Volume 1

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The Soul King's power as directly stated.

In fact, a great piece of evidence is the fact that Ichigo was going to be used to replace the Soul King as an emergency despite Ichigo having no hax nor abilities. Ichigo was solely a powerful being with a massive amount of Reiatsu and Reiryoku.


It's their own innate energy that is performing the feat. Nothing more, nothing less.




Any Supporting Evidence As Well?

9Qj7phJ.png


Seriously was that not enough?


Thankfully, we literally see Yhwach's Reiatsu spreading throughout the worlds to destroy them:


It's pretty undeniable that it's done with their own innate energy. There is no other shenanigans.
















Isn't Uryu Piercing Yhwach an Anti-Feat?


No, for many several reasons!


1) Uryu's Anti-Thesis was stated to be a counter to the Almighty according to an Almighty user.

2) Yhwach himself states that Uryu has an innate power superior to his own.

3) The Still Silver Arrow is stated to be a counter and nullifier to Yhwach's powers which included the Almighty.

4) Anti-Thesis is hax ability that switches the state of two targets, Uryu isn't going to be scaling to Yhwach for his hax and Still Silver being able to work on Yhwach.


It was a miraculous amount of asspulls and coincidence that lined up for this scene to take place.

Uryu was in front of Yhwach and the arrow entered Yhwach from the back; therefore, the Anti-Thesis had to have been used. The Anti-Thesis counters the Almighty, so it would work on Yhwach. Still Silver counters Yhwach's Almighty, it most likely couldn't have been seen by his Almighty then.

Just so many asspulls.


Aren't the Soul King/Yhwach Eyeballs an Anti-Feat?

This one confuses me because I have no idea why this idea is being entertained. The eyeballs are literally described as excess energy that Yhwach is spilling from absorbing the Soul King.

We don't know how much energy it is, we don't know how strong it is, and by feats this excess energy is clearly not a strong amount of energy since it's being defeated. It's not even an actual attack, just excess energy.

This is not an anti-feat.


How Did Yhwach Go From Losing to Ichibei to Killing Mimihagi and the Soul King?

The Almighty, it does actually provide a stat boost and numerous evidence supports it:

It is directly stated by Jugram that Yhwach could not use his Almighty unless he regained the power to use it, otherwise it would go out of control. There is a specific timeframe that must past before this and the timeframe comes to pass in the middle of Yhwach's fight with Ichibei.

This is why Yhwach goes from getting stomped by Ichibei to then one-shotting Ichibei.

Ichibei does reduce Yhwach's power to half, but this is futile since Yhwach restores it back (and keeps restoring it back) and Ichibei is still kicking Yhwach's ass casually with the returned full power.

It's not until the full timeframe of the Almighty is reached that Yhwach unlocks his real strength in order to be able to use the Almighty.




I'm Not Convinced!

Jugram is weaker than Yhwach and when Jugram is using the Almighty his is an incomplete version as he admits.

Still Not Convinced!

I guess you can include the fact that Yhwach with the Almighty was no-selling True Shikai Ichigo's strikes and Getsuga despite the fact that 3 days before Yhwach was injured by the weaker Fullbring Bankai Ichigo's Getsuga.





Final Thoughts

I really don't see why we can't keep the ratings given the amount of evidence presented in the manga and novels that support the Soul King's history, creation, and maintaining of the Bleachverse.

A lot of the evidence against it was really just misinterpretation or a misunderstanding of the text. That or context was left out which made it seem as the feat was not valid.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk, I do hope you all read through it all thoroughly and go through all the scans as well, I tried to make sure I got everything from manga, databooks, and the novels.

Thanks.


WHY IS THERE A 20 IMAGE LIMIT WHAT THE HELL, MAN?!
 
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Ok it's finally time to summon staff

@Antvasima @Ryukama @AKM sama @DontTalkDT @SomebodyData @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @ByAsura @Qawsedf234 @Eficiente @Duedate8898 @Everything12 @Crabwhale @Schnee_One @Damage3245 @LordGriffin1000 @Sera_EX @Jvando

Hello everyone, I would be very grateful and appreciative if you all could take a look at everything that is said here and please give input and judgement on which side of the argument you believe to be correct and whether or not the current 3-A to Low 2-C rating that the God Tiers of Bleach scale to are valid, please be honest and direct in which side you agree with, so we can settle this composed and politely, this is a very polarizing and controversial debate, so a close analyzation of everything that both sides have said will be greatly appreciated

Now let's settle this in a calm and polite manner
 
I am reading the latest arguments from both sides. Looks like everything that was said during the entire course of this thread has been compiled and dropped in the final arguments, several of the non-valuable points being repeated in the process that were already discussed and addressed. At least I am glad that the circular arguments have stopped. I will be giving my views after some time when I have gone over the important points.
 
I unfortunately do not have the time to evaluate all of this given my other work, but can summon the remaining bureaucrats, sysops/administrators, and discussion moderators if you wish.
 
After having looked over both Arc's, Kukui's, Warren's, and I'Made's points I feel I have come to my own conclusion and will share so after AKM's input.

Before that, however, I would like to target a very specific bit of both Arc's and I'Made's argument (possibly Warren's) side and this is because it helps to serve as the basis for my own beliefs towards this matter and because I personally feel it should not be disregarded as it has been done so.

The Lie of The Threat of The Quincy.

Several times this is brought up:
Then Why Does the Novel Say The Soul King Stabilizes Souls?
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This is another misunderstanding!

In the exact same page that this statement is made it is revealed that the character who delivered the statement was lying to the protagonist of the excerpt. This statement is explicitly not reliable nor true.



If this isn't enough, the literal next page has the protagonist that was lie to research about the Soul King and the past to find the truth. It is literally revealed and stated that the character who delivered the statement was actually lying, the truth was withheld.


Then Why Were Quincies a Threat to the Soul Cycle?

Again, the flow of souls was a lie perpetrated by the older Heads of the Royal Family as the above pages show. There is no balance of souls that must be maintained to save the universe, that was a proven lie. The Soul Cycle is real, as in people die, become souls, and then flow into the afterlife worlds (Hell, Hueco Mundo, or Soul Society). The Soul King did make that and can manipulate souls, but this does not stabilize the worlds.

Why I feel needs to be addressed here is that the statement of the soul balance isn't only perpetrated by Tokina's father, but by one of the most reliable sources in the series: Ichibe.

In this very same novel, Ichibie while talking with the Arrancar mentions to them how kill them would upset the balance. This is something I picked up from one of the unofficial translation, and if so wished I'd love for someone to provide the actual novel statement to point out any eras:
“On the contrary, the opposite is true. After all, the lot of you are a far greater source of calamity than the Hollow than can be found here and there, regardless of whether you are purified or exterminated, if one was to heedlessly do so under the current circumstances, then the equilibrium of the three realms of existence would be sure to collapse.”

Ichibie, who knows the full truth and who is the primary provider for the very lore that reveals to us everything involving the Soul King said this. And we have no reason to take this as a lie from him. Shunsui knows the truth of the Soul King and how he came about (as indicated by the dialogue just before this), while the three Arrancar present really no nothing of Soul Society besides the Soul King who they were told about by Aizen (another person that knows the truth) and what they heard from others during the events of TYBW.

Not to mention, in manga, we're actually shown there being tangible effects done by the quincy in the very first chapter of the Thousand Year Blood War, here are the images below:
0480-007.png
0480-008.png

They are actually observing tangible effects from the mass hollow purge done by the quincy and having to adjust the borders between the living world and either Hueco Mundo or Soul Society for this very reason.

That's why I believe that the light novel pages referenced above are pointing to the lie being that there is no history before Soul Society, World of the Living, Hueco Mondo, etc. Because not only is that very lie contradicted most directly within the novel itself, but because the Quincy being a threat is corroborated by the most reliable source in the series and on-screen depiction within the manga.
 
I gave my response to Arc and he placed it within his, but I will just give my conclusions a final sentiment to be direct.

I completely agree with Arc and IMade on their points, I find the universal tiering to be sufficient to remain where they are.

I mentioned in my response that there is a clear double standard to what is and isn't allowed on this site for each verse, and gave examples from Dragon Ball to prove as such, well I have more if needed to expand on that topic, but the bottom line is, this type of upgrade, even one as significant and large as this, has been done before for other franchises on the wiki with the same level of evidence or less, and completely disregarding Bleach like this, is frankly ludicrous.

I will bring up once again that I suggested a compromise of:

"At least 5-B (Upscaling from Senna's calc, which is at least this strong), possibly/likely 3-A (Scaling off of Yhwach's attempted destruction of the three realms and everything connected to them, which I feel that according to the put-off tier 2 revisions would be this strong)"

For those who are so gung-ho about feats. I think this is the best way forward. Numerous profiles have multiple possible scaling metas for characters depending on which feats and statements are taken into consideration, I don't see why Bleach should be any different.

Whatever the case, barring giving another example of the double standard that I have noticed, this will be my last response.
 
I've been reading Imade's arguments; and he does elaborate a lot of solid points and also does do an excellent job explaining the cosmology of the Bleach verse. I very much do agree that the stabilization is a universal stabilization feat. And it also makes sense that the Antithesis negates durability and nullifies precognition.

However, I still agree with Kukui that I do not see evidence for it to scale to striking strength or durability. If there's a statement that he uses more energy in every casual punch or sword strike they throw than they do to hold the universe together, that would be a different story. And he would still need the pool of energy to stabilize everything. But it's also commonly talked about that simply having a pull of energy =/= they can harness every ounce of it in every strike. And in the end, I'm more in agreement with Kukui's posts. But that's all I want to say or get involved with.

Note: It would still be listed on Soul King, Yhwach, and Post timeskip Ichigo?'s profiles on the AP section and tiers via stabilization. Just not scale to anyone else or physical stats.
 
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Going through those insanely long last posts I still find myself mostly in agreement with Kukui and AKM. I think their points make the most sense and stuff like the Almighty and the Soul King's stabilization shouldn't scale to AP, or Striking Strength, or Durability.
 
Going through the lengthy posts that both sides have made, I still find myself mostly in agreement with Arc7 and IMade. I think their points make the most sense and the arguments that they have made for Almighty, as well as the Soul King's stabilization, is convincing enough that they scale to AP, which would directly affect their Striking Strength & Durability.
 
I've been reading Imade's arguments; and he does elaborate a lot of solid points and also does do an excellent job explaining the cosmology of the Bleach verse. I very much do agree that the stabilization is a universal stabilization feat. And it also makes sense that the Antithesis negates durability and nullifies precognition.

However, I still agree with Kukui that I do not see evidence for it to scale to striking strength or durability. If there's a statement that he uses more energy in every casual punch or sword strike they throw than they do to hold the universe together, that would be a different story. And he would still need the pool of energy to stabilize everything. But it's also commonly talked about that simply having a pull of energy =/= they can harness every ounce of it in every strike. And in the end, I'm more in agreement with Kukui's posts. But that's all I want to say or get involved with.
I was about to unfollow this thread again, but then I saw this. And had to respond before I did.

Are you serious? The Soul King and Yhwach sustain the world through their Reiryoku, which is the Spiritual Energy that spiritual beings use for literally everything they do.

Like form their weapons, casts magical attacks with Kido or utilize their own special abilities, gather Reshi if you are a Quincy, enhances their speed with Hohou, exerts their energy outward to form an intense pressure called Reiatsu, etc.

How could it not scale?

That's not how Bleach's magic system works.
 
I mentioned in my response that there is a clear double standard to what is and isn't allowed on this site for each verse, and gave examples from Dragon Ball to prove as such, well I have more if needed to expand on that topic, but the bottom line is, this type of upgrade, even one as significant and large as this, has been done before for other franchises on the wiki with the same level of evidence or less, and completely disregarding Bleach like this, is frankly ludicrous.
Just want to say this real quick, "whataboutisms" isn't a valid argument. It's not even an argument at all. Every verse, every feat and every related fact has differences from one another and they are evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Just because a similar thing happened for another verse which had totally different context doesn't mean it has to happen for all the verses and it doesn't mean there is a double standard. It's case-by-case.

And if you want to argue whataboutism, Thanos is a pretty similar case as this. He has a believable statement that makes sense with the story, yet he is unknown. I say similar, and you might want to disagree about it, maybe we will agree to disagree, but that's exactly why whataboutism arguments are invalid. We are talking about this specific thing, not any other verse with different contexts.
 
Every verse, every feat and every related fact has differences from one another and they are evaluated on a case-by-case basis.
Disagreed. Each and every feat may have differences from one another, but these feats can also have distinctive similarities to the point that both feats may/may not qualify for a specific rating, depending on what is written on the Wiki for evaluation of these kinds of feats.

Thus, these similarities can be enough for two feats that happen in different verses to be evaluated and categorized in the same tier.

It is what your tiering system and policies here were created for, after all.
 
Just want to say this real quick, "whataboutisms" isn't a valid argument. It's not even an argument at all. Every verse, every feat and every related fact has differences from one another and they are evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Just because a similar thing happened for another verse which had totally different context doesn't mean it has to happen for all the verses and it doesn't mean there is a double standard. It's case-by-case.

And if you want to argue whataboutism, Thanos is a pretty similar case as this. He has a believable statement that makes sense with the story, yet he is unknown. I say similar, and you might want to disagree about it, maybe we will agree to disagree, but that's exactly why whataboutism arguments are invalid. We are talking about this specific thing, not any other verse with different contexts.
Are you serious?

It's about your clear bias and the lack of credibility that comes from your evaluation of specific media because of it.

When nearly the exact same circumstances happen in multiple verses and you rate one circumstance differently for reasons that directly contradicts the reasons that you preached for another circumstance previously, it shows your bias for a verse, and how it is controlling you to make inaccurate decisions when tiering, not that the context is significantly different between circumstances, making the comparison invalid.

These are your words AKM Sama:

“Characters don't always have to destroy a universe to be considered at that level. The statements come from the most reliable and knowledgeable sources who are there just to give exposition about the fight. Even the narrator, the closest being to word of god, confirmed these statements. There is no single throwaway statement in this case, but these statements are reiterated many times which clearly shows the intention of the writer. There is no single throwaway statement in this case, but these statements are reiterated many times which clearly shows the intention of the writer.”

You can't legitimately make the claim that for Dragon Ball's 3-As, this is fine; But Bleach characters need more and act like they are substantially different contexts or feats. That is complete horseshit.

Both circumstances are nearly identical:
  • No actual universal destruction legitimately happen, only countless statements from knowledgeable members about it happening via the power of the people fighting
  • The only feats being on a planetary basis through all the realms
  • Nothing contradicting it (Actually, Dragon Ball has scaling issues that Bleach doesn't have that I mentioned, but that's beside the point), from other credible statements, guidebooks/lorebooks, or other feats.

What is so different about Bleach's feat that makes this comparison inaccurate? The context between both feats are remarkably similar.

Next to nothing that's what, but even if that is not good enough for you. I'll do you one better.

I will give you basically the exact same feat, like seriously, this is the same ******* feat, in a different verse which is rated 3-A.

Weakened Argosax is 3-A because of this description:

"Attack Potency: Universe level (The weakening of his seal, even before he was fully revived, was causing the Demon World and the Human World to fuse together and reverting the universe to its original state where the two worlds were once one single dimension)"

Fusing using universal realms together by the person's power to revert the universe back to its original state is literally the same feat that Yhwach was doing. The only difference is that in Bleach there are three realms wherein DMC, there are two being affected. You can't not legitimately argue that this comparison is invalid or "not an argument".


And for your Thanos comparison, I forget the reasonings why it was deemed unknown exactly since Endgame was over a year ago, but IIRC, there was only like one statement from Thanos, and I think he implied he would have used the hax from the Gauntlet. The only similarity between these cases is the threat of universal destruction which never actually happened because the heroes stopped the villian, and literally nothing else. This is a massive false equivalency to the cases that I mentioned. You're right, this example is a "whataboutism", but mine aren't.

And this doesn't even mention the stabilization stuff I brought up either.


All this goes to show me is that you didn't actually read the rebuttal in the Google Doc, but looked at my comment and responded to that instead.
 
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I said I was going to wait for AKM, but since I'm pretty sure he'll be stating just what how he believes this to go and it shouldn't sway me too much I'll say this now. If it changes after his post, I'll make another post to show how my beliefs have changed.

Personally, while I agree with Yhwach and the Soul King stabilizing Soul Society, I am not fully convinced that Yhwach was going to destroy the entire Soul Society universe in a single attack or physically merge the universes together. Nor do I believe that the Weakened Soul King is stabilizing everything by himself since I think it's illustrated to us that he's not the sole determining factor in the stability of the Bleach Cosmology, that other pillar being the Soul Cycle.

With that said, I would agree to Warren's Proposal back in Arc's response.

However just to be more detailed about it since I do think this matters, this is how I think the ratings should look:

Prime Soul King:
3-A, possibly Low 2-C (Split the universe into the Soul Society, Hueco Mundo, and Living World. Possibly created the Garganta, which is noted to have an irregular time in comparison to the other three worlds)

Weakened Soul King:
Unknown, possibly 5-B
(Keeps the Soul Society stable alongside the flow of souls)

Soul King Absorbed Yhwach:
At least 5-B, possibly 3-A
(Absorbed the Weakened Soul King's Power and now maintains Soul Society in his place, threatened to destroy the World of The Living and Soul Society)

Post Power Absorbed Yhwach:
At least 5-B, possibly 3-A
(Stronger than before, and was shown physically destroying Soul Society before his final death)

Everyone else that scales to Yhwach just takes on this new rating for whatever stated reasoning was already given.
 
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Warren, how about you calm down and don't go insulting people like that. You seem very worked up over this. If you want to argue DBS, please make another thread. I just said bringing up any other verse here is irrelevant and derailment. What I said about DBS's case, I still stand by it. And I can sit here and talk about how the two cases couldn't be more different. Even the fact that you are comparing this to DBS is laughable in itself but I won't indulge in it here. If you want to talk about that, you can come to my wall.
 
I said I was going to wait for AKM, but since I'm pretty sure he'll be stating just what how he believes this to go and it shouldn't sway me too much I'll say this now. If it changes after his post, I'll make another post to show how my beliefs have changed.

Personally, while I agree with Yhwach and the Soul King stabilizing Soul Society, I am no fully convinced that Yhwach was going to destroy the entire Soul Society universe in a single attack or physically merge the universes together. Nor do I believe that the Weakened Soul King is stabilizing everything by himself since I think it's illustrated to us that he's not the sole determining factor in the stability of the Bleach Cosmology, that other pillar being the Soul Cycle.

With that said, I would agree to Warren's Proposal back in Arc's response.

However just to be more detailed about it since I do think this matters, this is how I think the ratings should look:

Prime Soul King:
3-A, possibly Low 2-C (Split the universe into the Soul Society, Hueco Mundo, and Living World. Possibly created the Garganta, which is noted to have an irregular time in comparison to the other three worlds)

Weakened Soul King:
Unknown, possibly 5-B
(Keeps the Soul Society stable alongside the flow of souls)

Soul King Absorbed Yhwach:
At least 5-B, possibly 3-A
(Absorbed the Weakened Soul King's Power and now maintains Soul Society in his place, threatened to destroy the World of The Living and Soul Society)

Post Power Absorbed Yhwach:
At least 5-B, possibly 3-A
(Stronger than before, and was shown physically destroying Soul Society before his final death)

Everyone else that scales to Yhwach just takes on this new rating for whatever stated reasoning was already given.
i think is a good compromise
 
Warren, how about you calm down and don't go insulting people like that. You seem very worked up over this. If you want to argue DBS, please make another thread. I just said bringing up any other verse here is irrelevant and derailment. What I said about DBS's case, I still stand by it. And I can sit here and talk about how the two cases couldn't be more different. Even the fact that you are comparing this to DBS is laughable in itself but I won't indulge in it here. If you want to talk about that, you can come to my wall.
I am calm.

Saying you are being hypocritical with your evaluation of different mediums isn't a personal insult at all, and it isn't derailment, it is me pointing out there is a flaw in your line of reasoning. Countering an argument and directly stating that the logic someone is using is inaccurate for specific reasonings isn't an insult, it's literally what debating is.

And if you actually read my response, you would have seen the note I said that explicitly says I don't have a problem with it and that I am for the scaling in both franchises. Not mentioning the DMC example, or my problems with the Lucifer stabilization feat as well that I mentioned in my response too.

Please, read the rebuttal, and make a proper response to the whole post about why the reasonings are wrong.
 
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Whatever the case, I still stand by the idea that a compromise between feats scaling and statements scaling is best.

Dudedate's suggestion encompasses this as well, and I will stand by the idea that this is the best way forward to finally conclude this thread.
 
Ok, time to give my final statement, I will try to be as concise as possible as to why I believe what I believe, in conclusion, I still agree with Kukui

Some things I want to get out of the way at first is that the Uryu Feat and Eyeball Creatures don’t matter at all, I have no idea why you guys argued about that stuff for so long, and that the second is that Low 2-C isn’t even on the table here, you need to prove the past, present, and future would all be destroyed and this doesn’t apply to Bleach for certain to my knowledge, so with that, I will begin

I believe that the stabilization feat is just full of unknowns, we are shown that the Soul Society and World of the Living begin to shake, but that’s all we see, the full extent of the stabilization is not shown at all, if we had seen literal planets and stars shattering, then I could believe the stabilization feat to be 3-A, but we don’t see any of that, which makes the immediate output of these guys attacks being 3-A very questionable, as well, the fact that the balance of souls is a major factor in the stability of the the worlds also takes away from Soul King maintaining the entirety of the worlds based solely on his own power, he may be stabilizing a large portion of it and be the main pillars that keep the building (The worlds) from falling, but considering the imbalance of souls means that any balance shift can destroy the worlds along with us not seeing the immediate destruction of the worlds makes me think that these guys can’t just throw out 3-A energy for all of their regular attacks

The Almighty scaling to physicals is a huge no for me, the Almighty is shown to be Fate Hax+Power Null+Pregog, and a few more abilities, none of that applies to anyone’s physicals at all, the Almighty can change events to suit the user and the events said user control have to be something from a possible future yes, but that doesn’t mean that attacks that get switched in are a result of the Almighty’s power itself, when Ywhach set up traps for Ichigo and ignored Orihime’s shield, that was Yhwach’s regular attacks sure, but the act of switching futures so that those attacks land is not AP related at all

Another huge issue I have is that while it is said that being the Soul King has the power to change and destroy the world, the mere fact that Ginjo is a contender for being the Soul King at all means to me that the context behind that statement may not be a direct result of 3-A power, it could be interpreted any number of ways and once again, the fact that GINJO is a contender at all means to me that being the Soul King doesn’t guaranteed make you 3-A and mean you can destroy the world as you see fit, a contender for being the Soul King means that you have mixed powers of being a Shinigami, Fullbringer, Hollow, and Quincy, not that you can use 3-A power for regular attacks, as well, it was stated that when the worlds were split, it was done with the Almighty as a keystone, meaning that the main center ability that managed to do that feat was the Almighty and when Yhwach claims he has the power to reshape the world, to me, that would likely also use the Almighty as a keystone to change the worlds, and since the Almighty is a hax ability and doesn’t scale to physical stats at all, that means that Yhwach’s claims of restructuring the world would be done via hax and therefore wouldn’t scale to his regular stats

Another thing I feel needs to be noted is Yhwach felt the need to absorb Gerard, Jugram, and Ichigo’s Power before he went through with his world reshaping feat, to me that indicates that he may have not been able to perform the feat without all those powers, but I will admit this is not very solid, I just found it to be a small thing that may make the 3-A scaling invalid

In conclusion, I don’t agree with anyone getting a 3-A or Low 2-C result for any of their regular combat stats, maybe Yhwach and the Soul King can get it via the Almighty or via a World Reshaping feat, but I don’t believe Yhwach, the Soul King, Ichigo, or Aizen should get 3-A at all for any of their regular combat stats, even as a “Possibly 3-A”, at best they can get a “Possibly far higher”, but I don’t feel the 3-A has enough to warrant even a “Possibly”

This is the last thing I will be saying on this thread and I hope that however this ends, it will end peacefully, in general, it doesn’t matter to me what Bleach ends up as, and anyone is free to disagree with my interpretation, after all I still fully believe power scaling is completely subjective and you can rank any characters from High 6-A to 2-A, it just depends on how the individual thinks about power scaling, I was asked to participate when this CRT first started and now this is my conclusion, so with this, I am out
 
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Please, for non-staff, do not comment in this thread.
Refer to staff or already allowed non-staff members to get your points communicated here.
 
I do not personally know, but my post was more in reference to Gin.
If TOAA is not allowed to comment then another admin or thread moderator will have to confirm that for me.
 
Remember everyone, if you have already given your agreement or disagreement with reasoning, then you should be done here, the time for back and forth arguing is done here, the final statements have been given and all that's left to do is see where everyone stands, once you give your agreement or disagreement and why, just leave the thread for others to do the same
 
@TOAAPRESENCE1; if it is already on Arc's document, then repeating it here on the thread is no good. I recommend that you stop posting now since the main argument phase is now done.
 
Former staff are actually allowed to post as staff threads as long as they behave; same goes with those recommended for staff positions but rejected the offers. Just pointing those out there. I personally didn't think there was anything wrong with TOAA being able to post. Unless there was other given reasons for him to be banned from posting.
 
The Almighty scaling to physicals is a huge no for me, the Almighty is shown to be Fate Hax+Power Null+Pregog, and a few more abilities, none of that applies to anyone’s physicals at all, the Almighty can change events to suit the user and the events said user control have to be something from a possible future yes, but that doesn’t mean that attacks that get switched in are a result of the Almighty’s power itself, when Ywhach set up traps for Ichigo and ignored Orihime’s shield, that was Yhwach’s regular attacks sure, but the act of switching futures so that those attacks land is not AP related at all
Did you read this part, Match?

How Did Yhwach Go From Losing to Ichibei to Killing Mimihagi and the Soul King?

The Almighty, it does actually provide a stat boost and numerous evidence supports it:

It is directly stated by Jugram that Yhwach could not use his Almighty unless he regained the power to use it, otherwise it would go out of control. There is a specific timeframe that must past before this and the timeframe comes to pass in the middle of Yhwach's fight with Ichibei.

This is why Yhwach goes from getting stomped by Ichibei to then one-shotting Ichibei.

Ichibei does reduce Yhwach's power to half, but this is futile since Yhwach restores it back (and keeps restoring it back) and Ichibei is still kicking Yhwach's ass casually with the returned full power.

It's not until the full timeframe of the Almighty is reached that Yhwach unlocks his real strength in order to be able to use the Almighty.

And then this comment you made on the same post:
when Yhwach claims he has the power to reshape the world, to me, that would likely also use the Almighty as a keystone to change the worlds
Once again, did you read the actual comments, because I literally provided a scan of Yhwach using his Reiatsu to perform the feat and multiples quotes saying it's through Reiryoku/Reiatsu:

How Does the Soul King/Yhwach Do It?

With their Reiatsu and Reiryoku silly, did you not read the quotes I posted?

"After Kurosaki Ichigo had triumphed over Yhwach, his remains were transported to the Soul King Palace at the hands of Squad Zero soldiers. Hundreds of binding seals were placed around the corpse which still contained a vast amount of Reiryoku even after death, by storing it as the new lynchpin in the Soul King Greater Palace area, the world was spared from collapse."

- We Do knot Always Love You

Reiryoku is the key word in this one.

"But luckily for the boy, Yhwach had all of the Reio's power. That guaranteed that the Soul Society would escape destruction whether or not Ichigo Kurosaki won."

- Can't Fear Your Own World Volume 1

ZqjSHlW.png

The Soul King's power as directly stated.

In fact, a great piece of evidence is the fact that Ichigo was going to be used to replace the Soul King as an emergency despite Ichigo having no hax nor abilities. Ichigo was solely a powerful being with a massive amount of Reiatsu and Reiryoku.


It's their own innate energy that is performing the feat. Nothing more, nothing less.
Any Supporting Evidence As Well?

9Qj7phJ.png



Seriously was that not enough?


Thankfully, we literally see Yhwach's Reiatsu spreading throughout the worlds to destroy them:


It's pretty undeniable that it's done with their own innate energy. There is no other shenanigans.
How do you even say that Ginjo is a contender (who doesn't have an Almighty) and saying that the feat would be only done with an Almighty? You're contradicting your own judgement.


I don't really want to comment much after my closing statement, but I couldn't just let this go by because this is just proof that some of the staff are not actually reading the entire comments and making a baseless judgement.

I do implore you all to actually read through the entire thing, so far Duedate has provided solid reasonings in his judgement and I find it to be an agreeable stance even.
 
TOAA very briefly held an internal wiki forum staff position, which he quickly abused and had removed. He did not hold any authority within this external forum, so I personally do not think that he should post here.

In any case, Warren please try to maintain a polite tone to AKM. He is consistently working very hard to help this community as well as he is able, and this is not an important enough matter for the staff to start fighting between themselves.
 
Anyway, intuitively speaking, it does seem to make sense to place the universal tiers as separate from the physical statistics via environmental destruction or somesuch, given the sudden enormous jump in power levels otherwise, and severe inconsistency with all physical power demonstrations displayed in the series, but I haven't had the time to properly read nearly all of the relevant information above, so I am the wrong person to ask.
 
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Btw: Should Kukui receive an extra response, given that others gave more responses than they were supposed to?
 
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