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Bleach Downgrades (Staff Only)

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Well, IMade did, and this has largely been a 2 vs 1 argument, so this should hopefully be a roughly even solution.
 
Antvasima said:
Btw: Should Kukui receive an extra response, given that others gave more responses than they were supposed to?
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None of us have given any extra arguments, we just redirected back to our posts as some of the judgements are literally making statements that were disproven in the comments. I literally copy pasted from my closing statement, could you point out the extra argument there?

Kukui shouldn't be able to make an extra argument, but he should be allowed to redirect to his comments like we did.
 
Just delete non-staff replies, have staff vote, and just be done with it.

At this point, (not trying to be rude, just being blunt) no one cares.

And if staff care then all the more reason to just delete the regular user's replies and just let staff speak.
 
Should I call all of our bureaucrats, consultants, administrators/sysops, and discussion/thread moderators to help out here?
 
Now I'm confused, isn't this supposed to be we post final arguments and staff vote and thread ends? What's going on lol?
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Now I'm confused, isn't this supposed to be we post final arguments and staff vote and thread ends? What's going on lol?
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Yes. Kukui is just doing what IMade did so things stay fair across both sides.

Staff have been coming in and giving their judgment.
 
 
I probably have no right to give any input since my knowledge of Bleach is only limited to the anime (Which has been a while tbh) but I do understand the proposal against their current ratings and always did find the rating somewhat shaky. What do you suggest the new tier should be, Kukui?
 
Alright. Like I said, this is not bringing in brand new stuff, this is a redirect to stuff I already talked about here. This is to give a kind reminder to everyone here about something that should be seen or relooked at if missed.

This has to do with IMade's question to @DemonGodMitchAubin on the Almighty:

IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
Did you read this part, Match?

How Did Yhwach Go From Losing to Ichibei to Killing Mimihagi and the Soul King?​


The Almighty, it does actually provide a stat boost and numerous evidence supports it: snip
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No offense intended for anyone, but Im going to be blunt here. Im finding it very interesting and honestly downright appalling that Mitch needed to be asked that (or asked if he read anything here honestly) when Mitch already read a response I already made about this literally right before my final response to IMade's argument in this thread. Some don't remember it? I'll quote it again for you all to see:

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Okay everyone. My bad for being pretty late with this, a new semester at school started for me so my times been occupied with that and I couldn't post my responses sooner like I wanted. But now I have time to, so i'll be getting my final stuff out here. I'll address Arc's stuff first and then IMade's.

Counters for Arc’s Argument: The Almighty Scaling to AP ​

Okay, so before I post my final counters against IMade, here are my counters against Arc’s little bit that he brought before about the Almighty. Let's dive into this and i'll go on to post the rest of my final arguments.

First things first is the evidence from Yhwach’s fight with Ichibe.



Shooting ieveryone straight, nothing from this part of Arc’s response here has anything to do with a stat boost, and this is because Yhwach didn’t receive any boost in stats by the Almighty. His strength was restored back to where it was before being lowered by Ichibe. But before I give my evidence for this, I’d just like to show everyone a little statement IMade gave in his previous counters against me. Please read the boldened words.



IMade himself doesn’t agree with Arc’s assessment that this is a stat boost, he sides with my point that Yhwach simply restored his weakened strength. 2 people, who are on the same side as each other here, are not even on the exact same page on what they are arguing. Please keep this in mind when reading through the final responses.

Now to get to my counters on why this isn’t a stat boost for Yhwach. Let's post the entire fight between Yhwach and Ichibe so context of what happened during it isn't missed. For this part, there are too many individual scans for everything to be posted within the 20 picture limit the forum allows, so I will give the chapters Yhwach and Ichibe fight each other in. It's only 6 chapters, so it'll only take a small bit of time or so for everyone to read through them. It won’t take long. Anyways, moving on.

Arc’s argument about Yhwach and Ichibe is ignoring 2 very crucial things. The first is about Ichibe. What Arc didn't post about this fight is that Ichibe’s basic abilities were used to weaken Yhwach's strength. Ichibe’s Zanpakuto, Ichimonji, does not harm opponents in the conventional sense because it doesn't cut opponents. It cuts names.

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Cutting the name of whatever Ichimonji slices allows Ichibe to halve that target's power in half. He shows this when cutting the name of Yhwach’s arm in half, making it “AR” and halving its strength. He does this again by cutting Yhwach's name in half, making it “YHW” and halving all of Yhwach’s power.

The second crucial thing Arc’s argument doesnt post about is how Yhwach is able to overcome Ichimonji’s name cutting abilities. Yhwach shows Ichibei that Ichimonji halving his power is useless, because Yhwach has the ability to restore any strength he loses back to what it was at before. And this is without using the Almighty.

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And then after that, comes Ichibe confirming that anything painted over with Ichimonji’s black ink loses its name, and its power as well. Ichimonji’s basic abilities, without its Bankai, are able to cut names in half and remove names, weakening and removing the target's power.

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Now we get to what Ichimonji’s bankai does. Ichibe’s Bankai is able to remove and give new names to anything its black ink paints over.

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When doing this to Yhwach, he gave him the name of a black ant. Doing so made Yhwach’s power on the level of a Black Ant, which again, is weakening Yhwach’s power. And then by doing this, Yhwach get’s overpowered very easily by Ichibe.

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Then we have the Almighty appearing:

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As stated explicitly by Jugram, Yhwach’s strength was restored back to it's original level after the 9 years of regaining it passed, so that he could open his “eyes”, and wield the Almighty without losing control of it. And as explained by Yhwach, the Almighty is able to prevent all powers that he sees in the future from being used to harm him, which is why Ichimonji’s powers were useless against him and why Ichibe from this point onward got stomped.

There’s nothing here in this fight that says, or even implies, that Yhwach was given a stat boost. Arc is mis-epresenting this as a stat boost, when that isn't what this is. What happened was that Yhwach simply restored the strength Ichibe took away from him, something that Yhwach could already do without needing the Almighty. He then restored his strength back to it's original level after being re-named "black ant", which let him activate the Almighty after waiting for the 9-year requirement to be over at that moment. And then, Yhwach used the Almighty’s Power Nullification to nullify Ichimonji at the same time, preventing it from affecting him anymore. This is directly confirmed by Jugrams statement since Yhwach couldn’t have used the Almighty without first restoring his power. And with Ichimonji’s abilities being useless, Ichibei had no chance against Yhwach when the Almighty appeared, which is why Yhwach defeated him very easily by taking away all of Ichibei’s options against him. Yhwach's original level of power is simply > Ichibe, Yhwach wasnt fighting him with his true strength, and when finally getting his true strength back, Ichibe with his abilities nullified was powerless against Yhwach.

This is not a stat boost, this is restoring lost power. A stat boost is raising your stats above it's original level to obtain stats on higher levels, becoming stronger than where you were at originally. Restoring your lost strength is not a stat boost. You're simply restoring the strength that you originally lost. The 2 are being confused here.

We then go back to, once again, Jugram’s statement:



Arc on this point is right about one thing. Yhwach obtained his full strength when activating the Almighty. But the problem pivots back around to what I was talking about before. This is not a stat amp, this is Yhwach restoring the power he lost. The argument is playing this off as a stat amp when that's not the actual case. The statement from Jugram already got debunked before in my old counters, and here, so i’ll be quoting the rebuttals for that again too:



Jugrams statement isn't talking about a stat amp or attack potency for the Almighty.

His statement is talking about Yhwach's power being restored to it's original level now that the 9 years of waiting was over. He was restoring the strength he once had, not gaining brand new never-before seen levels of strength. Only the latter is considered a stat boost. Ichibe being one shotted simply means Ichibe is weaker than Yhwach's original level of power and was only able to match up against the incomplete strength Yhwach used against him early in the fight. Once Yhwach regained full power + used the Almighty to negate Ichibe's abilities, it became a stomp.

My earlier counters also already debunked this logic on why this would scale to attack potency. It doesn't. Yhwach needing his strength restored to freely wield Almighty =/= his strength is regularly applied into the Almighty. Having full strength to control the Almighty is a prerequisite to using the power, not a result of activating the power itself. It is a caveat to using the power, not a benefit from using the power. It’s a weakness for the Almighty. Nothing here proves that strength is being put into the Almighty. Everyone reading this can again, refer to the analogy I gave and the characters who are in similar circumstances to this but don’t have their abilities scale to their strength:



A child isn't able to carry a rocket launcher for being too physically weak to lift it at his age. When growing up, he becomes strong enough to lift the rocket launcher and shoot out 8-B missiles from it. Is the dude now 8-B for being physically able to use the rocket launcher? No, nowhere near it. It only means he became strong enough to support the 8-B weapon by holding it. In this scenario, Yhwach is the child and the Almighty is the rocket launcher.

To give more specific examples, we have characters under similar circumstances here where we don't apply this type of scaling.

My Hero Academia​

One for All is a 7-B power when in All Might's possession. When Deku is given O.F.A by All Might, Deku needed to be physically strong enough to wield O.F.A in order for his body to handle the power and not destroy himself with it. This even required him to train in order to make his body physically stronger. Yet, he isn’t anywhere near 7-B in the beginning of M.H.A. He’s only 7-B with 100% power in his Full Cowl form, his most recent form that he needed help from Eri to use. At the start of the series, wielding O.F.A. only makes Deku 8-C to High 8-C.

Dragon Ball​

Roshi is 5-C in his MAX form prior to DBZ and needs to use up his energy in order to use the Mafuba (Evil Containment Wave) seal, which can even kill you when you use it. Yet, the Mafuba isn't a seal powered by 5-C energy or energy on any tier since people far stronger than Roshi, like 3-A Trunks and Low 2-C Goku, used Mafuba without the slightest fatigue. Goku casually used Mafuba dozens of times during training to master it without tiring. Trunks used Mafuba on Zamasu without tiring out. The seal does not scale to a tier.

Naruto​

Nagato's power is 7-A individually despite having and using the Rinnegan, a 6-C power that needs massive quantities of chakra to use and is even above Nagato’s own power as it stands. Yet he doesn't scale to the tier of the Rinnegan.

We don’t accept this kind of scaling here. “Power needed to use an ability” does not mean the ability scales to your tier. It does not mean it scales to your attack potency. We don’t accept it for the formers, or in general, and the same would go for Yhwach and the Almighty.

Now we get to this bit on the Almighty breaking things in the final battle.



This entire quote also has nothing to do with attack potency, and uses extremely flawed scaling. It’s ignoring the very basis of what the Almighty does. What the Almighty is doing against Ichigo’s Zangetsu and Aizen’s Kyoka Suigetsu is not launching attacks. It’s Fate Manipulation.

The power of the Almighty is to alter the future, which of course is Fate Manipulation:

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Every “attack” Yhwach uses on Ichigo and Aizen is not literal conventional attacks that you could quantify as attack potency, as if he were physically striking them with a punch, cut or energy blast. It’s altering fate to attack them with Fate Manipulation. Ichigo getting his sword broken instantly is just Yhwach altering fate to a future where the sword is broken so it gets broken here. Ichigo getting his horn ripped off of him is just Yhwach altering fate to a future where the horn is torn off so it gets ripped off here. Ichigo getting slashed, even when Orihime blocks Yhwach's physical strikes with her shields, is just Yhwach altering fate to a future where he does slash Ichigo, so Ichigo gets slashed despite the defense. Simply put, it's Fate Manipulation that's used offensively. You can’t quantify Fate Manipulation as a normal attack in any way, it would be silly to try to as its very nature as a hax.

As for Aizen’s Kyoya Suigetsu not getting “broken” against the almighty, this falls down to a number of issues.

First, the definition of “broken”. Unless you're saying Yhwach meant for Kyoka Suigetsu to be cut in 2 like Ichigo’s bankai was, this really isn’t a point. Yhwach’s Almighty did it's job and cracked Kyoya Suigetsu. Cracking the sword IS breaking it. Yhwach doesn’t necessarily have to slice Kyoya Suigetsu into 2 pieces to make it broken. But this is a minor nitpick. The other issues are much more relevant.

Second, the bit about Aizen “not controlling” what Yhwach sees. Where did you get this idea from? Because that's exactly what Kyoka Suigetsu does, it's perfect hypnosis. Aizen literally scripted out a whole plan to get all captains and lieutenants in the Gotei 13 together to use his Shikai Release on them as the hypnosis ritual. Not to mention, your own counters disprove this claim. Yhwach saw Ichigo in the final battle, but it turned out to be Aizen who made him see Ichigo and interfered with the Almighty’s clairvoyance. How is any of this not controlling what illusions the victim sees? This makes no sense.

And third, we get to the flawed scaling being done here. As I said above, the Almighty isn't using normal conventional attacks against these guys, its Fate Manipulation used offensively. You can’t quantify Kyoka Suigetsu not breaking against Almighty as durability since its being broken by fate manipulation. At the absolute best, it's 3 things. Either Aizen has minor resistance to fate manipulation, the Almighty’s fate hax is less effective against people as strong as Yhwach is, or Yhwach never meant to slice Kyoka Suigetsu in 2 and the Almighty did what it was supposed to do, break KS by cracking it . Either way you slice it, this isn’t an attack with attack potency applied. Trying to scale this to Yhwach being relative to Almighty doesn’t work.

Now to get to the Ichigo bit:



This is the same as above. It’s Yhwach using offensive Fate Manipulation. And in this case, its not even trying to break Ichigo’s Tensa Zangetsu. Yhwach was smacking it away from Ichigo, who had to pivot and charge in the opposite direction to grab it, but was halted by Yhwach. Smacking the sword out of Ichigo’s hands isn’t exactly breaking the sword.

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And even if this could somehow be scaled as conventional attacks and attack potency, this would be a huge outlier for Ichigo anyway. Ichigo in just a few chapters prior literally had Tensa Zangetsu broken in 2 the very instant he unleashed Bankai. And after getting stomped against Yhwach, his Quincy and Hollow powers were taken away from him. Yet, in two or so chapters later, Ichigo is able to survive another assault from Yhwach without Zangetsu being totally vaporized? That's an outlier.

The Reiryoku stuff doesn't need much comment either as it wont really matter without a quantifiable feat. The issues with it scaling to Attack Potency im going to be going over again in my response to IMade. But to be specific, that scan never actually specifies Reiryoku being used by Reio / Yhwach. It just says Reiryoku is present around the corpse. The said corpse was then made into the lynchpin, and the world escaped collapse. But it doesn't say Reiryoku specifically solved the collapse.

Now we get to this little bit involving stats negging hax:



A hax getting negated by raw power does not mean the hax is physically comparable to the one who negated it. That just means the hax has a weakness of not being effective against stronger opponents. Again, this is trying to correlate a hax to being physically comparable to stats when that isn't how hax works.

Next, we get to this part about the Soul King fragment:



This also isn’t a stat boost. It is the same thing that happened with Yhwach restoring his own power against Ichibe’s abilities when they fought.

Ikomikomoe absorbing a piece of the soul king restored his power back to the level it was originally at before Ichibe repainted its name with a name curse, which caused his power to decrease with a new name. It's the same thing as when Yhwach had his name repainted with black ant. This just means Ikomikomoe countered the name curse by using the soul kings power to restore his lost strength. Restoring your power back to where it was originally is not a stat boost. Thats just restoring your lost power. A stat boost, like I covered above, would be increasing your power beyond its original level, which is not the case with this.

The Almighty doesn't boost stats to new never before seen levels, Yhwach restored his own lost power. The Soul King's figment didnt boost Ikomikomoe's stats to new levels, it restored the strength he lost when ichibe gave him a new name. There is no stat boosting being done here.

And finally, to get to this small bit here:



This also doesn't mean the Almighty increases anything, or that a stat boost in general happened. Ichibe was one shotted because Yhwach restored his lost power back to its original level after waiting out the 9 years he needed to wait through, which allowed him to freely control the Almighty and nullify Ichibe's abilities.

Prime Yhwach's power was >>> the Yhwach Ichibe fought. Non-Full powered Yhwach restored his strength back to what it was in his prime. Regaining his prime strength allowed him to use the Almighty without losing control of it. Prime Yhwach's strength is >>>> Ichibe. The Almighty nullified Ichibe's abiliities. Thus, Ichibe was stomped. Simple explanation for this.

TL;DR​

Everything Arc presented here is being taken out of context and applied incorrectly.

The evidence he uses to prove Yhwach boosts his stats with the Almighty is only referring to Yhwach just restoring his power back to its original level before using the Almighty. This is proven by Jugram's statement and Ichibe's abilities being able to weaken his power. Restoring your power to its original level is not boosting your stats. It’s bringing back what you used to have before. Arc is misrepresenting this as a stat boost. What should also be kept in mind is that not everyone on Arc’s side agrees with this being a stat boost as well.

The other evidence used to prove the Almighty scales to Attack Potency is using the assumption that the Almighty launches normal conventional attacks against Ichigo and the others, when that's not what the Almighty does. The Almighty is not launching conventional attacks. It is harming Yhwach’s opponents with Fate Manipulation used offensively by altering the future. Fate Manipulation can never be quantified as an attack with attack potency under any circumstance. Much less be scaled to other's physical stats.

And finally to end things here, the other evidence is Jugram's statement of Yhwach needing his power restored before opening his “eyes” so that the Almighty doesnt go out of control. But this also isn’t evidence of scaling Almighty to attack potency. Needing to be strong to do that is just a prerequisite to using the Almighty, not a result of using the Almighty. In other words, this is a caveat to using the power, not a benefit from using the power. It is a weakness for the Almighty. And as my analogy and examples pointed out, other characters have similar circumstances where we don't use this scaling, showing that we don't scale attack potency like this and should not be doing the same thing here.

None of the evidence here results in the Almighty boosting stats or scaling to attack potency.
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Let me very clear here on this. Im not concerned with who agrees or disagrees with my arguments. If you agree with me? Thats fine. If you disagree with me? That's also fine. Im not here to compell people into taking my side or make people go against me. Im here to give arguments on my stance and leave them at that to be looked at by everyone. Whoever agrees with my points, or disagrees with my points, is freely allowed to do so for the reasons they have to do that. But for my responses to be outright ignored and dodged? And then complain when others don't see or read everything you type up? I don't appreciate that at all. I don't appreciate having my own points ignored by whoever disagrees, acting like their interpretations were never challenged, and then when they see people disagree with them, they go up in arms to complain about something they very likely did themselves.

I made this very detailed and reasonably lengthly response to Arc, right before I made my final reply to IMade, to address this specific topic. Eleven whole people, including Mitch, saw this response. But for whatever reason there is, it was ignored.

This response literally debunked everything IMade posted for the Almighty "giving a stat boost" since Arc already posted those exact same points in a response he made specifically about that. I gave analogies, examples, and explained to death on why restoring your stats to their original level is not the same thing as boosting your stats to brand new never-before seen levels, why using fate hax to attack an opponent isnt the same thing as you physically punching or slashing them in the normal means, and why scaling inconsistencies would be present. And absolutely none of that was acknowledged or countered by IMades final counters. Arc likely touched upon this somewhat, but IMade? He addressed nothing from that. Whether it was forgotten about, ignored, or both, this was just played as if I never put in time to make this whole response to challenge the point. And of course it wasnt addressed, or else IMade wouldn't have seen it reasonable to recycle the same points Arc used that this response was specifically made to counter. Mitch wouldn't have been asked if he read the evidence for the Almighty being a stat boost if my response, the response Mitch read and agreed with, was actually noticed. A redirect wouldn't, and honestly shouldn't, have needed to be made for this if everything was actually taken into account before going to disagree.

Was it ever considered that instead of Mitch "not seeing" what IMade's counters brought when disagreeing with them, he very simply disagreed with them because he saw my response about this topic and agreed with that? Was it ever?

If you want to disagree with what I gave here, again, thats fine. You're free to. But actually look at what I typed up, give counters, and acknowledge all the given counters before you go on to disagree. This complaint is not even because people side against it, its the fact that these disagreements are made by those who don't take everything into account before they do. I read everything my opponents give me and either counter it, say i'll ignore it if it has no relevance, or condede to it if I can't address it. There's no reason why others cant do the same here, or in any thread with a debate.

This is the first and last redirect im doing here, and no more redirects should be done after this. We shouldnt even be needed to do redirects. Both sides gave all of their arguments, all of their points, and all of their thoughts on this, and now we are passed that point. With all due respect, if anyone had anything else they forgot to put in or wanted to give reminders on something, you should have thought about that when putting in final arguments like I did. We gave everything we could, and now is the time for people to pick a side. Enough squeezing in extra responses. Any further discussing beyond this point, that isnt from a staff member picking a side, should not be continued.
 
Schnee_One said:
Their previous tier of 5A to 5B should be fine
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Just to give a small addrress to this (since im just now seeing Dino asking me this question), but AKM's post pointed out that 5-A and 5-B ratings wouldnt hold either since they come from the sustanance feat of the WSK, which is being questioned by the downgrade's argument.

Memories of Nobody could probably give them stuff above High 6-A, but that needs its own seperare thread to discuss.
 
Antvasima said:
I suppose that seems fine, as long as we try to keep things as balanced as possible.
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I guess if we want some absolutist balance, we could only count neutral mod votes. I.e. anyone who participated in either side of the debate or helped make the debate wouldn't have their votes counted.

That leaves people who just read the thread and are likely more neutral.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
It really does considering the two "orbs" pushed away might be the entire dimensions opposed to just the planets.
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Could be, but when I first watched it, those orbs really did look somewhat like planets instead of actual dimensions.

Still does not contradict the fact that these orbs were going to be merged into one though, so reversing that is already comparable to the merging process anyways.
 
ShieldsPlus said:
Could be, but when I first watched it, those orbs really did look somewhat like planets instead of actual dimensions.
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It definitely would benefit from discussion, if I'm still around here I'll make a CRT for it next I'm free. Since most here expressed the desire for it to be brought up in a separate CRT.
 
After reading the thread again:

  • I think stabilizing the worlds is not shown to be a proper 3-A feat or anywhere close to it going by the standards. The destruction upon Soul King's death is blatantly shown to be slow on panel with characters saying that the tremors have been going on forever and it's too small to notice. We only see tremors on a few planets and that's it. This is not a one shot or immediate destruction which makes it unable to qualify for a 3-A rating. Duedate covered it pretty well in his response earlier in the thread:
The earthquake itself isn't ever stated to reach outside of the planets or shown to do so. Sure, it seems to cross dimensions but that doesn't really illustrate its power at all. That just means it looks like it was localized to the planetary bodies. The whole idea of "even affecting something tier 2 is tier 2 no matter how you do it or the context behind it" seemed to be a prevalent reason, which is, in simple words, a misconception. That is literally not how things work.
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  • It just goes to show how a seemingly universe destroying feat is not even close to universal in attack potency because of the mechanism involved, in spite of the implied end result. Obviously being a lynchpin is important to maintain the balance and provide overall stability, but it doesn't mean it automatically scales to the end result of what happens due to the imbalance caused by or without it. Sometimes a single faulty construction error resulting from a tiny nut and bolt causes the bridge to collapse.

  • Another issue was the quote from Yhwach where he highlights the flow of souls, and the novels mentioning the Soul King to be the one who regulates the "universal flow of souls" is also evidence that the stabilization involved is the Soul King stabilizing the flow of souls and the worlds are kept stable as a consequence. Imade tried to refute this point by saying it's completely irrelevant but Duedate in his recent post also cleared it up above, with Mitch touching up on that too. All in all, the stability feat is unquantifiable.

  • I outright disagree with Almighty scaling to raw stats based on what has been presented in the thread. It's mainly fate hax +a few more abilities. If your hax does not work unless you gain a sufficient amount of power to be able to use it, that's just one of the limitations in the usage of hax. That, in no way, means the hax scales to raw stats. Neither does the hax providing a stat boost is reason enough for it to scale one-to-one with base stats. That's neither here nor there.

  • I also see an issue with the actual timeframe of the Soul King's splitting/creation feat where it is being assumed to be instantaneous because of the Almighty doing things instantly with what is fate manipulation. We simply don't know enough about the feat. We have no timeframe. We have no context of how he was going to do it. No mechanism explained. Just a single statement that it happened using Almighty. For all we know it could be the same slow chain reaction-esque process kind of like the tremors in the supposedly "universe destroying" instability feat. Or it could be a work of weird hax+range. We at least need some kind of context to properly evaluate the feat by which we can logically deduce that the Soul King is in fact able to one-shot the universe. Unfortunately, there is none, except for people trying to shoot for the highest possible interpretation because why not, that makes the character the highest tier after all.

Which brings me to a related point, that being Yhwach's world reshaping feat and his quest to undo what the Soul King did. Since the Soul King used the Almighty to reshape the world first, therefore it makes logical sense that Yhwach would use Almighty as well. It also doesn't help that his claim and flaring up of energy also involves a bunch of unknown factors.
Hundreds of binding seals were placed around the corpse which still contained a vast amount of Reiryoku even after death
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Soul King having vast amount of reiryoku is unrelated to the feat of trying to destroy everything. I don't see why this was important. Or any other statements.

Another main point here is whether the energy Yhwach was releasing would spread to the entire realm of Soul Society? And beyond? Because we see it at an area within the Soul Society and nowhere else. And as Yhwach stated earlier, if the Soul Society becomes unstable then everything else becomes unstable. Another consequence of "instability" that implies the end result to be something much more than what the character is doing at present or capable of doing in one-shot. For instance, as stated here on panel, even if the goal is as simple as tilting the universe, to start spilling the Soul Society into the world, which in turn, would make life and death mix together, which in turn would create chaos, which in turn will make the universe tilt more, which in turn will accelerate the aforementioned spilling even more, and ultimately a seemingly much more impressive end feat is achieved in a domino-like effect, despite the main cause being a little bit of instability. Without context any feat can be misinterpreted, that's why we always need context before making big leaps.

The whole thread goes over how the entire Bleach cosmology is inherently unstable and small differences in balance could create large effects in the world, and how there are stabilizing factors placed as a result, which when abused can cause those differences. When the feat is this ambiguous, instead of reaching for the highest interpretation only because it gives the character the highest tier because people want their characters to be "muh stronk", we should take the safer, lower and consistent end. That has always been one of our main principles and is the most reasonable solution in scenarios like this.


All in all, the evidences for such a big jump (from tier 6 to 3) should have been undeniable and irrefutable, right? Of course bigger jumps are possible, but when I want someone to believe that such a jump makes complete sense, when nothing in the verse ever comes close to that level, I am going to give direct undeniable evidences whether they be in terms of feats or reliable statements. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidences. While here, almost all of the relevant arguments are extrapolated and used to reach the absolute highest possible interpretation.

In my opinion, I think there are more potential feats in the tier 5 range that people have brought up outside this thread. There is also Memories of Nobody, but that will require a separate CRT. While I think the initial proposal of tier 6 might end up being invalid, my main stance is to remove the tier 3 ratings. With what has been discussed in the thread, I think the best course of action would be to simply rate the relevant feats (or interpretations of them) as "possibly higher", with Almighty or "Unknown" after their main stats that they will end up with. And then wait for official translations from the novel to see if there is something else.

I did not want to make this post longer but as a side note, I felt the need to address a totally unrelated issue. Since whataboutism was thought of as something valid to the discussion at hand, despite it not being.

Dragon Ball Super was brought up as something related, what people fail to realize is that before BoG ever came out, DBZ capped at 4-B. The movie came out with a statement of Beerus being able to destroy solar systems casually. There was an interview where the WoG stated that Beerus could destroy 1/10th of the universe, yet Beerus was not upgraded to tier 3. When the anime came out, there were at least 3 blatant statements at different points about Beerus being able to destroy the universe. Yet, Beerus was not upgraded to tier 3.

Not until the most in-your-face evidences were brought about by later episodes. We see the shockwave feat happening, but not to it's full extent because of an in-verse explanation of Goku trying to cushion it. The range of the feat is depicted on screen which spanned the entire universe. Multiple characters who were the most knowledgeable ones at the time were sure that the third clash would destroy the universe. It didn't because of another explanation of Goku nullifying the effects. There was another energy ball that was stated to destroy the universe not only by multiple credible characters, but also by the narrator, not only once, but multiple times. It is a simple series where it was just one energy ball that was about to explode and that's it. There is no room for interpretation and headcanon. It was visually depicted to us that when it went boom, the energy from it engulfed the entire universe up to the Kaioshin realm and the universe would have been destroyed if it wasn't for Beerus nullifying it in time. We later get another confirmation from the narrator telling us that these characters were punching with power that could destroy the universe. We have another feat of Goku overwhelming Beerus' nullification that was easily capable of nullifying universe destroying energy. We have another more powerful energy ball formed as a result of much stronger attacks that Goku canceled. Not that it matters but literally every pamphlet, promotional material and Toei's official site corroborated this info. We have a friendly reminder that these GoDs are in fact capable of destroying not just one, but two universes together, in the later arc. We had another character who literally became the universe and started flowing into another timeline for which Zeno had to nuke all 12 universes. We had yet another reminder of what the GoDs are capable of when they started fighting again.

The analogy with DB does not work because:
1. Dragon Ball was not upgraded even after multiple statements from the character himself, from other characters, and even from the WoG.
2. Dragon Ball is a simple kid's show with the concept of "big energy go boom and destroy stuff". There is no room to make over the top complex interpretations. It's direct in the fact that the energy either is strong enough to destroy shit, or isn't.
3. Dragon Ball was upgraded only after there were multiple showings of the "feat" being visually depicted to us on screen so the scale of it was made absolutely clear.
4. And the showings matched one-to-one with multiple descriptions and statements from the most credible sources, be it characters or narrator.
5. Even though the universe was not destroyed in the end due to reasons stated in-verse, it was hammered home through both, visual and verbal representations of what would happen several times to the point where it was undeniable and irrefutable. Literally making it an example of the next best thing besides a blatant feat.
6. The scaling was consistent and there was constant progression of power in the verse when characters were portrayed to be much more than just your average tier 3 joe with characters like Beerus, Champa, GoDs, Zamasu and Zeno being portrayed as higher and higher.

The fact that it was even brought up is just... And as I said earlier, Thanos has a direct and believable statement of being able to destroy the universe with a single snap. To the point where literally everyone believes him, the writers don't contradict his claim, and the entire point of the fight was to prevent him from making the snap. Yet, in the context of the verse the statement is egregious without anything to back it up. And hence, he gets an "Unknown" rating. You always need something to back up your claim. Some other verses were also brought up and if those cases are similar to this one, I will gladly voice my points there too if people create a thread about them.
 
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A lot of what I would want to say has already been spoken by DueDate, AKM and Mitch so I'll keep my post brief.

Overall I do agree with the downgrades because I don't think this idea about the "flow of souls" being a lie is correct. I think both the original manga and the novels make it very clear that it is relevant to the Bleach cosmology. I think that the stabilization feat as analyzed by Kukui does not meet the required parameters for rating the Soul King or Yhwach as Universal based on that alone. The assumption that Yhwach would spread his Reiatsu throughout the three realms to destroy them does not seem supported enough to me since we only see it extending out as far as the surroundings of the Seireitei. We don't know enough about the destruction feat to be sure about rating Yhwach, and the other God Tiers for that.

As to what the specific ratings should be, I am not 100% sure yet but I believe that the sealed Soul King should go back to Unknown at least.

Also, I have said since the beginning that the whole topic of this revision should have waited for the official translation of the final novel since we know that was on the way. I'm happy to take a look at what info comes out of there.
 
Damage3245 said:
I have said since the beginning that the whole topic of this revision should have waited for the official translation of the final novel since we know that was on the way. I'm happy to take a look at what info comes out of there.
Click to expand...
This is a valid point.
 
Just before I start, I just want all the staff who haven’t voted yet to not feel awkward about voting a certain way because you may or may not get insulted after you do so.

Decide which side you agree on based on the arguments presented. Don’t feel awkward when someone comes up and says “did you even read the thing I wrote” just because you didn’t agree with their view point.

As staff, I’m sure you all who have already laid down your decisions have taken the time to read through both arguments in full and come to the conclusion that makes the most sense to you. Now, on to my decision and why I made it.
Duedate8898 said:
After having looked over both Arc's, Kukui's, Warren's, and I'Made's points I feel I have come to my own conclusion and will share so after AKM's input.

Before that, however, I would like to target a very specific bit of both Arc's and I'Made's argument (possibly Warren's) side and this is because it helps to serve as the basis for my own beliefs towards this matter and because I personally feel it should not be disregarded as it has been done so.

The Lie of The Threat of The Quincy.

Several times this is brought up:


Why I feel needs to be addressed here is that the statement of the soul balance isn't only perpetrated by Tokina's father, but by one of the most reliable sources in the series: Ichibe.

In this very same novel, Ichibie while talking with the Arrancar mentions to them how kill them would upset the balance. This is something I picked up from one of the unofficial translation, and if so wished I'd love for someone to provide the actual novel statement to point out any eras:
“On the contrary, the opposite is true. After all, the lot of you are a far greater source of calamity than the Hollow than can be found here and there, regardless of whether you are purified or exterminated, if one was to heedlessly do so under the current circumstances, then the equilibrium of the three realms of existence would be sure to collapse.”

Ichibie, who knows the full truth and who is the primary provider for the very lore that reveals to us everything involving the Soul King said this. And we have no reason to take this as a lie from him. Shunsui knows the truth of the Soul King and how he came about (as indicated by the dialogue just before this), while the three Arrancar present really no nothing of Soul Society besides the Soul King who they were told about by Aizen (another person that knows the truth) and what they heard from others during the events of TYBW.

Not to mention, in manga, we're actually shown there being tangible effects done by the quincy in the very first chapter of the Thousand Year Blood War, here are the images below:
0480-007.png
0480-008.png

They are actually observing tangible effects from the mass hollow purge done by the quincy and having to adjust the borders between the living world and either Hueco Mundo or Soul Society for this very reason.

That's why I believe that the light novel pages referenced above are pointing to the lie being that there is no history before Soul Society, World of the Living, Hueco Mondo, etc. Because not only is that very lie contradicted most directly within the novel itself, but because the Quincy being a threat is corroborated by the most reliable source in the series and on-screen depiction within the manga.
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Duedate does an excellent job of illustrating this point he made above about how the Flow of Souls is important to the stability of the Bleach cosmology. This is important and it has nothing to do with SK stabilizing the flow of souls.

I read through IMades Cosmology explanation earlier in the thread twice and I also looked through Arc’s last rebuttal but paid more attention to the stability requirements because this was where the bulk of this discussion began.

One of the things I took note of was the claim that the Soul King stabilizes everything in the bleach cosmology and from what I gather, that was only partially true. See, what has actually been said was that The SK acts as a “key” or “Linchpin” and with his death the other realms will crumble, it was never actually stated here that he directly spread out his energy to stabilize all these different dimensions. Mind you, this is weakened SK which becomes important when you realize Yhwach absorbed this weakened SK’s power.

To continue on, the only statements that refer to what the SK stabilizes actually explicitly note that He stabilizes Soul Society. This is important when you realize that Yhwach explicitly states that With Soul Society gone, everything connected to it will crumble which includes Dangai, world of living, etc. So it’s not that SK directly stabilizes all those worlds with his power but that he keeps Soul Society stable which in turn allows the rest of the bleach verse to keep its stability.

I don’t believe Yhwach would be 3-A because even if he wanted to undo everything the SK did and cause mass destabilization of the bleach verse, all he would need to do is mess up Soul Society which would disrupt the flow of souls leading to the great consequences that follow.

Now since Soul Society can either directly refer to the entire dimension or just the planet they are on, as depicted in the Memories of Nobody, one could argue that SK stabilizes the entire dimension or just the planet. Considering Yhwach mentions that the SK was “...Created to stabilize Soul Society where massive numbers of Konpaku pass through,” and there is no depiction of souls passing through anywhere else in Soul Society aside from the planet itself, isn’t it possible that weakened SK is just maintaining the planet they are on instead of the entirety of the Soul Society (the entire dimension)?

If so, then weakened SK isn’t 3-A to begin with regardless of wether the stabilization feat is legitimate or not. The reason I made this point was not only to suggest that maybe the Stabilization feat wasn’t as impressive as it was made out to be, but that multiple interpretations for it exist and while we might not agree on one interpretation over the other, I don’t think the higher end interpretation has enough compelling direct evidence to offset the lower end interpretation.

My position on tiering is as follows:
  • Prime SK would maybe be 3-A for his creation feat. Wont go into that here tho
  • Weakened SK would either be Unknown or 5-B for stabilizing the planet (if the stabilization scales to AP to begin with)
  • Yhwach would scale to whatever he was before with a likely higher rating and then scaling would continue on from there.
Scaling can sometimes be Objective, no doubt about it:
  • X blasted a planet apart so he is 5-B
  • Y vaporized a Galaxy so he is obviously Galaxy level
And I could continue on, however, when it comes to tiering an entire cast of individuals based on statements that could be interpreted more than one way, that’s when Scaling becomes subjective because regardless of what one might believe, their interpretation isn’t the “correct one”.

That goes for me too, I don’t think mine is necessarily the “correct” interpretation, but I believe it is the safest interpretation we can afford based on the evidence we have and the magnitude of tier jumps that would occur if the higher end interpretation would be taken.

So, if I hadn’t made it clear already, I agree that 3-A for any character other than maybe SK has to go. I don’t believe it is the most accurate representation of the character’s statistics based on the information provided.
 
Jvando said:
Just before I start, I just want all the staff who haven’t voted yet to not feel awkward about voting a certain way because you may or may not get insulted after you do so.

Decide which side you agree on based on the arguments presented. Don’t feel awkward when someone comes up and says “did you even read the thing I wrote” just because you didn’t agree with their view point.

As staff, I’m sure you all who have already laid down your decisions have taken the time to read through both arguments in full and come to the conclusion that makes the most sense to you. Now, on to my decision and why I made it.
Click to expand...
This, so much this. I know there are many staff members who have openly said to me that they don't want to get into these discussions because of how toxic they become. Even a few staff members who participated in this discussion have told me that they have had their opinions ignored and devalued and have been constantly targeted and insulted by some of the fans. I can see why they wouldn't want to participate. Why would they if that's how they are treated, just because they are trying to help out.

I agree with Jvando in that it doesn't matter what others think or if they disagree. Staff members have been trusted based on their capabilities to make the right judgment call and make their decisions heard, according to how they perceive the issue. So they should freely voice their opinions in what they believe makes the most sense according to them.

Jvando said:
Scaling can sometimes be Objective, no doubt about it:
  • X blasted a planet apart so he is 5-B
  • Y vaporized a Galaxy so he is obviously Galaxy level
And I could continue on, however, when it comes to tiering an entire cast of individuals based on statements that could be interpreted more than one way, that’s when Scaling becomes subjective because regardless of what one might believe, their interpretation isn’t the “correct one”.

That goes for me too, I don’t think mine is necessarily the “correct” interpretation, but I believe it is the safest interpretation we can afford based on the evidence we have and the magnitude of tier jumps that would occur if the higher end interpretation would be taken.
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I also strongly agree with this.
 
I have a comment from Cyberblader90

"Going off what jvando stated above:

One of the things I took note of was the claim that the Soul King stabilizes everything in the bleach cosmology and from what I gather, that was only partially true. See, what has actually been said was that The SK acts as a “key” or “Linchpin” and with his death the other realms will crumble, it was never actually stated here that he directly spread out his energy to stabilize all these different dimensions. Mind you, this is weakened SK which becomes important when you realize Yhwach absorbed this weakened SK’s power.

To continue on, the only statements that refer to what the SK stabilizes actually explicitly note that He stabilizes Soul Society. This is important when you realize that Yhwach explicitly states that With Soul Society gone, everything connected to it will crumble which includes Dangai, world of living, etc. So it’s not that SK directly stabilizes all those worlds with his power but that he keeps Soul Society stable which in turn allows the rest of the bleach verse to keep its stability.

L0g8u6F.jpg


This can still be established as 3-A, just not as AP. The realm can be interpreted in the same fashion, since it initiated in the soul society

0684-009.png


As such my proposal is whatever gets decided in the Memories of Nobody CRT for AP, 3-A established as environmental destruction for Yhwach and Sealed Soul King.

20210116_204956.jpg


Screenshot_20210114-183203_YouTube.png


Screenshot_20210114-183157_YouTube.png


These scans from Arc's doc further support that this environmental effect would be 3-A"

That's all from them. They just wanted to say their piece.
 
Seems like a lot of the staff, including Bambu himself, pretty much do not want to get themselves involved in HST-related threads.
 
KLOL506 said:
Seems like a lot of the staff, including Bambu himself, pretty much do not want to get themselves involved in HST-related threads.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry are you, honorary staff or retired? Otherwise, I'll have to ask you not to comment in here again. Unless someone gave you permission, in that case just ignore this and my bad for the request.
 
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