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Bleach Downgrades (Staff Only)

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Duedate8898 said:
I'm sorry are you, honorary staff or retired? Otherwise, I'll have to ask you not to comment in here again. Unless someone gave you permission, in that case just ignore this and my bad for the request.
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I'm an honorary staff member. Calc group specifically.
 
I'm gonna be real with you guys for a second. No lie, I'm unsure if my input would actually be helpful here. I haven't followed this thread throughout it's entirety and this whole Soul King stabilization feat business makes my head spin. I'm also spending some of my time gathering feats/fixing up all the verses that I've created that lack scans/descriptions for the stuff on the profiles. Tie that in with all the family drama/life problems I'm dealing with makes me short on time. It's not because it's Bleach/HST stuff, it's simply because I don't have the time to properly evaluate the arguments presented by either side. The last thing I want to do is just blindly jump to one side or the other.
 
Okay, so now I have to ask you as well, because I don't recognize you, @Hasch but are you also honorary staff or were you given permission to post this?
 
@Hasch could you say who asked you permission and/or ask said staff member to confirm this? Otherwise, please do not comment without permission.
 
Hello, I was given permission to give one last comment in regards to the matter. The side vouching for the arguments were given an extra turn to make a comment, with that comment being AKM's. Note; this should have stopped after Kukui's comment but his side was given an extra rebuttal, so to balance things out I'll be making the last rebuttal to make it even for both sides. And this acts more as a Redirection more than an actual rebuttal.
AKM sama said:
  • I think stabilizing the worlds is not shown to be a proper 3-A feat or anywhere close to it going by the standards. The destruction upon Soul King's death is blatantly shown to be slow on panel with characters saying that the tremors have been going on forever and it's too small to notice.
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This is inherently false and we're shown that in the Manga. The Soul Society and Hueco Mundo are both shown with extreme amounts of earthquakes, only The World of the Living received a small earthquake in comparison to the others. Also Yhwach clearly wasn't going to "blow it up" why would he want to destroy something he just wants to merge? You can merge something if it's gone if you destroyed it. Not to mention Mimihagi's entire existence should also disqualify any notion of the timeframe being that slow. Chapter 614 is where Reio is killed and we see immediate effects ranging from the Soul Society to The World of The Living.

We know these characters were in the middle of a war as well, so why on earth would literally everyone be flipping out if the timeframe for the destruction was actually that long as it's being made out to be? No, everything else implies that the destruction of the Realms would be a quick process. We have a timeframe to use if need be, that being a timeframe of a few minutes at max. A calc can likely be done to find the amount of energy needed for such a feat, and I've seen them before. And given that the quakes were massive, even in the World of the Living where the quake was deemed to be a large scale seismic shift that's was of unprecedented magnitude should also go against any notion of the quakes being small. Also anyone who's ever experienced an earthquake would know that from a greater distance they start to weaken, even with the student's statements it falls moot due to them only being exposed to a small fraction of the quakes.
AKM sama said:
  • We only see tremors on a few planets and that's it. This is not a one shot or immediate destruction which makes it unable to qualify for a 3-A rating. Duedate covered it pretty well in his response earlier in the thread:
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So Dimensional tremors are now only planet's? The quakes aren't something that just affected the Planets, these quakes were caused by something outside of any known Geological process and was scientifically unexplainable.
AKM sama said:
​

  • It just goes to show how a seemingly universe destroying feat is not even close to universal in attack potency because of the mechanism involved, in spite of the implied end result.
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The Mechanism involved has nothing to do with Hax, nor does it have to do with the Soul Cycle. The Soul Cycle is just a natural occurring phenomenon, Rei-O has nothing to do with the Soul Cycle. Firstly, the stabilization isn't done through the Almighty, nor is it done via mass manipulation of souls. Ichigo, Ginjo and Hikone don't posses the Almighty nor do they have the Soul Regulation ability to maintain the realms, yet all of them are capable of doing so. The fact that Yhwach in a state where he isn't alive nor dead, with most of his Reiatsu being sealed away was still able to maintain the Realms.


The timeframe has a maximum of a few minutes, and the stabilization is done via Reitasu (which scales to the combatants physical stats.)
AKM sama said:
  • Obviously being a lynchpin is important to maintain the balance and provide overall stability, but it doesn't mean it automatically scales to the end result of what happens due to the imbalance caused by or without it. Sometimes a single faulty construction error resulting from a tiny nut and bolt causes the bridge to collapse.
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False comparision to the greatest degree, a singular tiny screw would never make a bridge collapse by itself, first and foremost. Bridges are designed to stay functional even in the midst of car crashes involving several semi's.

Secondly in the comparison of that and Rei-o's stability feat falls flat because unlike the Bridge analogy (which is wrong.) we know for a fact the timeframe can't be any longer than a few minutes, given what he stabilizes and how he does it (Reiatsu.) an incapacitated Yhwach was maintaining the Realms passively with only a small amount of his Reiatsu, and most of it was sealed off. He had no access to The Almighty yet he can still maintain the Realms. Ichigo can do so as well, despite lacking any form of The Almighty or Soul Regulation.
AKM sama said:
  • Another issue was the quote from Yhwach where he highlights the flow of souls, and the novels mentioning the Soul King to be the one who regulates the "universal flow of souls" is also evidence that the stabilization involved is the Soul King stabilizing the flow of souls and the worlds are kept stable as a consequence. Imade tried to refute this point by saying it's completely irrelevant
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No he didn't, that's either you misunderstanding what he's saying or that you didn't read his arguments at all. His argument was that the Soul Cycle quote from the Novel was a lie, as it was stated to be just that. A lie, nothing more and nothing less. One can say that's it's open to interpretation but whenever we have a statement vs something without a statement we tend to go for the statement.


Yhwach highlighting the Konpaku is irrelevant, as we're shown and given statements about how Stabilization works (Reiatsu, again Ichigo doesn't have an Almighty nor can he manipulate the cycle of Souls yet he can maintain the realms himself. A incapacitated Yhwach while under several seals and without the usage of the Almighty is still able to maintain them as well.)
AKM sama said:
  • I outright disagree with Almighty scaling to raw stats based on what has been presented in the thread. It's mainly fate hax +a few more abilities.
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This again is false, The Almighty isn't just Fate hax and precog. The Almighty has shown the ability to utilize AP before, such as him blowing Ichibei into bits and him lifting the Quincy City with it. And unless we wanna suggest that there's just infinite futures in Bleach where Ichibei blows up for no good reason and random masses of land magically floating then this point is also moot.
AKM sama said:
  • If your hax does not work unless you gain a sufficient amount of power to be able to use it, that's just one of the limitations in the usage of hax.
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But it does also indeed prove that theres a level of Attack Potency to it, which is something you can't deny. A certain amount of strength is required for Yhwach to even use the Almighty, and even with that The Almighty can't make the impossible happen, all it does is it allows Yhwach to change any fate he sees in his future, his actions in the future need to be physically possible for him to actually Alter it. Otherwise I'm perfectly fine with upgrading The Almighty to Infinite futures and outright creation.
AKM sama said:
  • That, in no way, means the hax scales to raw stats. Neither does the hax providing a stat boost is reason enough for it to scale one-to-one with base stats. That's neither here nor there.
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Because they need to be physically capable of doing what they do in the future. For example, Yhwach can't just make a future where he fights someone like Reinhard and win, because it's not possible for Yhwach to do by any means. If the Almighty was just hax based then Yhwach would have merged the Relams instantly upon obtaining it after his fight with Ichibei.
AKM sama said:
  • I also see an issue with the actual timeframe of the Soul King's splitting/creation feat where it is being assumed to be instantaneous because of the Almighty doing things instantly with what is fate manipulation.
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Let me stop you right there, because the Almighty was never used for Rei-o's creation feat. He used almighty power, not as in his ability The Almighty. RAW's make this very clear so I'm not sure why it's even being brought up? Arc had it on the docs but that requires everyone to read it, and let's be honest here not everyone is going to actively read the entire thing.

その全能の力を「楔」として、五人は新たな世界の基盤を創り上げた。尸魂界、現世、虚圏。 = "With that almighty/omnipotent power, the five created the foundations of the new world. SS, WotL, HM."

全能 = adjective for almighty or omnipotent
全知全能 = kanji for All-Knowing Almighty -> furigana = ジ・オールマイティ (ji oorumaiti) The Almighty in reference to the schrift



And the creation was done the second the statement was made, there's nothing to argue against the timeframe. Not to mention Celestial Body Feats, Creation feats and GBE feats don't require a timeframe, as per wiki rules.
AKM sama said:
  • We simply don't know enough about the feat.
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We do, Reio and Yhwach maintain the Three Realms (not done via souls either.)
AKM sama said:
  • We have no timeframe.
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Going by the manga, a few minutes. Going for Reio's creation feat, it was done right then and there.
AKM sama said:
  • We have no context of how he was going to do it. No mechanism explained.
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We actually do, it's done via Reitasu (A dead Yhwach, Ginjo and Ichigo lack any sort of Almighty and or manipulation over the Soul Cycle to keep the balance, it's due to their large amounts of Reiatsu that allows for stability of the Realms.)

AKM sama said:
  • Just a single statement that it happened using Almighty.
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Again this is false and it seems like you are just confused regarding the mechanics of the verse in question. The Almighty was never used for any of the feats, nor was this ever stated. Give me citation that says stabilization is done by THE Almighty, since to my knowledge that's never stated.
AKM sama said:
  • For all we know it could be the same slow chain reaction-esque process kind of like the tremors in the supposedly "universe destroying" instability feat. Or it could be a work of weird hax+range. We at least need some kind of context to properly evaluate the feat by which we can logically deduce that the Soul King is in fact able to one-shot the universe.
Click to expand...
This is literally just a repeat of your timeframe argument but worded differently. The universal destruction would take place in a few minutes, Beerus and Champa didn't destroy their universe in the first clash for example but I dont care much for Dragon Ball. Point being that is you greatly blew up just how long the timeframe here is.
AKM sama said:
  • Unfortunately, there is none, except for people trying to shoot for the highest possible interpretation because why not, that makes the character the highest tier after all.
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I agree with the most part with such a statement but this is an issue regarding the tiering system itself rather than people going for the highest interpretation. It's a system like ours that allows for such a concept.
AKM sama said:
Which brings me to a related point, that being Yhwach's world reshaping feat and his quest to undo what the Soul King did. Since the Soul King used the Almighty to reshape the world first, therefore it makes logical sense that Yhwach would use Almighty as well.
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Read the first half of this argument, Rei-o did not use The Almighty to create the Realms. This is an example of blatant regurgitated misinformation due to a inherent lack of understanding. Ignoring that Yhwach was blatantly using his own Reiatsu to reshape the Realms, not The Almighty.
AKM sama said:
It also doesn't help that his claim and flaring up of energy also involves a bunch of unknown factors.
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That enegry was his Reiatsu, which is what is used to scale a character physical stats in the verse.
AKM sama said:
Soul King having vast amount of reiryoku is unrelated to the feat of trying to destroy everything. I don't see why this was important. Or any other statements.
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Are you seriously saying that? You know the verses enegry system that makes them scale physically? It's absolutely related, you just aren't knowledgeable enough regarding Bleach's verse mechanics (not a rude comment either, it's a general observation that most agree with.) for future reference, let's not dismiss key arguments as unrelated simply because you failed to understand why it was brought up.




Anyway this is to be the last form of rebuttal and Redirection, from this point foward we allow staff to decide given now that all the information for both sides have been laid out.
 
I’m just going to give a reminder here the the only reason why I was given permission to give a redirect was because IMade and others already made responses so I was given permission to balance that out with my own redirect. Which I gave earlier.

No one should be giving redirects at this point after I did mine.
 
LordGinSama said:
The side vouching for the arguments were given an extra turn to make a comment, with that comment being AKM's.
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Eh! It was not an extra turn to make a comment. I was just going over the points discussed in the thread and giving my opinions on why I agree/disagree with them. But okay.
 
This has become something of a joke at this point. All of these extra people coming in after the main argument phase has been done. Especially LordGin who has outright stated that he is leaving this forum after he's finished his business with a CRT.

Such a drawn-out waste of time.

EDIT: But if this is what it takes to get this over with, let's move on from here.
 
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Sera:

We recently created an instruction page for this:

vsbattles.fandom.com

Stabilization Feats

This is a type of feat where a character's existence, energy, presence, or any given factor from them sustains a structure on any given scale. And through their sustenance, their statistics are subsequently tiered to being at the level of power that is relative to the given scale of the...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
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Also, just a brief comment that it is very important that we do not get an environment where our staff members turn afraid of doing their jobs due to resulting toxicity, false accusations, and harrassment if they do.

They are generally working very hard for free trying to be of help, and do not remotely deserve such treatment in return.
 
Antvasima said:
Also, just a brief comment that it is very important that we do not get an environment where our staff members turn afraid of doing their jobs due to resulting toxicity, false accusations, and harrassment if they do.

They are generally working very hard for free trying to be of help, and do not remotely deserve such treatment in return.
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I also agree with this, and this is coming from someone who was targeted by the Sonic crew for similar reasons. We should remember that we have an HR group that tries their best to handle things, especially offsite problems, and guys like Wokistan are some of the most reasonable and levelheaded people we have.
 
I have been asked to post a comment with the current tally of staff agreements and disagreements

Staff who agree with the downgrade: 8 (Damage3245, AKM Sama, DemonGodMitchAubin, DarkDragonMedeus, Matthew Schroeder, Jvando, Everything12, Sera EX)

Staff who disagree with the downgrade: 2 (Warron Valion, ShieldPlus)

Staff who are going for a compromise or are neutral: 1 (Duedate8898)

Once again, more staff input would be greatly appreciated
 
Well, I am leaning towards agreeing with Jvando and AKM, but I have not had the time to properly read and evaluate Kukui's, IMade's, or Arc7's final summary arguments, which should be done before staff give official votes, so mine should not be counted yet.
 
@Veroniica_Lodgee
Since you're new to forum I must let you know that before commenting in a staff-only thread you must get permission from a staff member. Your comment shall be deleted until then. Apologies for any inconvenience.
 
In this case, there should probably be no additional non-staff comments period, to avoid potential derailment and drama.
 
Veroniica_Lodgee said:
Anyway i said what about the 20 people that gave kudos to what imade sent? What that mitch guy said is only tallying the staff members. There were people who aren't allowed to comment, so they show their agreement in the way of like/kudos.
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Well, since you seem to be new and had a legitimate issue, I don't want your question to be left unanswered and your comment deleted too. There are about 20 kudos on the OP too and many more kudos on the final comments, of both sides actually. But this is not about who has more kudos because that would be an appeal to popularity. Like you said, there's a chance people can just give kudos to whichever side they want to support, or might have a bias for, or for whatever other reason, without reading the arguments.
 
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Giving a kudos simply means they like the comment; which is common that people just found certain lines or images amusing, or they simply appreciate the hard work and effort put into their sources. I have kudos comments on Imade's post too; it's not exclusive to agreeing with people.
 
Medeus is correct. I often tend to give kudos to people who make an effort to help out and/or provide information, regardless if I agree with them or not.
 
Yeah that's enough drama and derailing for this thread. Like Damage said earlier, we are having none of that from this point on.

We can wait for a little bit longer for other staff members who want to comment here. Many don't. After that, this thread will be closed and whatever is decided will be applied.
 
I have been asked to mention to everyone that we will continue to wait until the end of the weekend on Sunday for any staff members to give their input before concluding which side is the accepted one, I once again encourage all staff to please take a look and give input on which side you believe to be best
 
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Antvasima said:
I think that "victor" is likely the wrong term to use here, as it can easily be misunderstood.

We largely just want the wiki statistics to be reasonably reliable after all.
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I will change it, I didn't mean to make it sound like that, even if this is a very heated debate where both sides do want to "Win"
 
@Promestein @Ryukama @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Sera_EX @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @MrKingOfNegativity @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @WeeklyBattles @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Ogurtsow @Starter_Pack @Steven_Pogi_Paitao @Mindovin @Jvando @Abstractions @Zaratthustra @SamanPatou @Dino_Ranger_Black @Antoniofer @Gemmysaur @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Schnee_One @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Ogbunabali @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Therefir @Ugarik @KGiffoni @Jasonsith

We would still greatly appreciate evaluations of this discussion (especially the final summaries) from the ones among you who have not commented already. Thank you.
 
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