Bleach Downgrades (Staff Only)

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AKM sama

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Refer to the title. As it was mentioned earlier, this thread will be tackling into the recent 3-A / Low 2-C upgrades that Bleach received here not too long ago. After taking a deeper look into things for myself, and receiving some help from others, I'm here to explain why I'm disagreeing with these upgrades and why Bleach should be downgraded back.

And yes, this will be done as a staff thread. The upgrade thread went on for 12 pages, barely over 24 hours, with minimal amount of staff members to take a look into it themselves. Since the upgrades were massive and highly controversial for one of the most popular verses that effects the credibility of the wiki, it required a large amount of staff approval before getting accepted, something that didn't happen. Due to the nature of these threads that attract a lot of comments that turn them chaotic and unmanageable, this will be done here in the staff forum to keep the thread under control. Obviously, @Arc7Kuroi will be allowed to post in the thread to provide responses to things he disagrees with to keep this fair since he brought these upgrades here in the first place. Same goes for @ProfessorKukui4Life who argued on that thread.

Now let's begin.

Reasons for the Upgrades

To get everyone up to speed, lets sum up the reasons for the upgrades to begin with before I get into why I think they should be downgraded. You can look to this sandbox made here as well and the upgrade thread I linked above. Long-story short, the reasons for current Low 2-C Bleach are these:
  • Reio / The Soul King creating the Bleach Cosmology, using the powers of the Almighty, by splitting the original universe into the worlds known to exist in the verse:
    • The Soul Society
    • The World of the Living
    • Hueco Mundo
    • Dangai, the world that exists between the Soul Society and World of the Living
    • Garganta, a reishi void that encompasses all the worlds in Bleach
  • Reio / The Soul King in his weakened state maintaining the Bleach Cosmology as the lynchpin for it
  • Yhwach wanting to reverse what the Soul King did to the Bleach Cosmology by destroying all of the worlds and returning everything back to the old universe
Thats the gist of the new ratings for them. Now lets go, in-depth, as to why I disagree with these points justifying the upgrades.

First Issue: Soul Kings Passive Feat Is Gone

To start out, the passive feat of the Soul King for "maintaining the Bleach Cosmology" is invalid. And for a number of different reasons.

Reason 1: Stability Feat Standards Being Revised

Our newly revised standards for stability / sustenance feats that were created recently throws this part of the upgrade for Bleach out the window. Keeping it short and to the point, stability feats are no longer assumed by default to scale to a character's statistics (something that is common sense and should have been the case from the start but got overlooked up until now). With our new standards, you now need far more evidence to get stability feats accepted, which effects the Soul King and the rest of Bleach's new upgrades in the process as they don't fit the bill.

When looking into this, there's evidence suggesting that the Soul King stabilizing the Bleach Cosmology is being taken out of context and doesn't scale to either 3-A or Low 2-C at all (the latter I'll be getting to later).

Reason 2: The Soul King & The Soul Cycle

Evidence suggests Reio stabilizes the worlds via stabilizing just the universal flow of souls, not the worlds in the Cosmology themselves.

Counter Argument: "No, Its been proven that Reio stabilizes the worlds themselves, not the flow of souls."


Yes, I've been made aware of this from a previous upgrade thread, made here, that got the Soul King to 4-A. It uses this statement from Yhwach:




That upgrade thread used this scan to prove Reio stabilizes the soul society and the other worlds itself based on Yhwach saying so here, which opened the doors to the upgrades accepted now. However, I argue that this is just being taken out of context. Because Yhwach also specifies in this comment that "massive numbers of Konpaku pass through" the soul society that Reio stabilizes. Why would the flow of souls be mentioned if it wasn't at all a factor in keeping the soul society in check? The first part of the statement is being taken to say Reio stabilizes the soul society directly, but its ignoring the flow of souls also being specified, which offers another way of interpreting the statement. The fact that Yhwach specifies "massive amounts of Konpaku pass through" indicates that Reio is linked to the flow of souls, which in turn, could mean he keeps the soul society stabilized by stabilizing the flow of souls. And this interpretation is supported by 2 strong evidences.

Evidence 1: Cant Fear Your Own World Novel

This page here is from Chapter 6 in the officially English translated CFYOW Bleach novel. Read right from the beginning of the page:




The Soul King is never said to stabilize the worlds here. Instead, its outright said that the Soul King controls the universal flow of souls as the world's lynchpin, giving more support to the interpretation that he doesn't stabilize the actual worlds, but the flow of souls, which sustain the worlds. Then we get to this next part:

Evidence 2: The Threat of the Quincies

This will be where most of the support comes in for the Soul King stabilizing the soul cycle as I saw this mentioned elsewhere here. And that is the threat the Quincies posed to the Bleach cosmology. These scans will explain the details:










Quincies and Shinigami differed from each other in how they disposed of hollows. Shinigami are considered balancers who cleanse hollows and send them to the Soul Society, while Quincies eradicate them completely. As a result, the Quincies removed those souls from the soul cycle of sending souls between the Soul Society and Living World. By doing that, they would unbalance the amount of souls between the two worlds, which as explained, would cause the collapse of the universe as a result. Being a threat to the worlds in this manner was the reason why Shinigami actively sought to prevent Quincies from disrupting the balance in the first place, even going as far as to kill majority of them.

The Soul King stabilizing the entire Cosmology conflicts with this. The Quincies are, narratively and consistently, treated as threats to the Bleach cosmology in-universe. Why would the Quincies be regarded as such a threat to the worlds if the Soul King directly stabilizes these said worlds? No matter what the Quincies would do to the soul cycle, Reio stabilizing the worlds would prevent them from getting collapsed. Even more so, Shinigami's would not have been required to dispose of Quincies if the Soul King sustaining the worlds was actually the case. The only way this doesn't conflict with this plot-point is if the Soul King only sustains the flow of souls.

Counter Argument: "You are still wrong, Reio does not sustain the flow of souls, he sustains the worlds"

Lets say this is true then. Even with the evidence given, lets say its wrong and the Soul King does indeed sustain the worlds directly, not the flow of souls.

There's more reasons as to why the Soul King's stability feat is invalid.

Reason 3: The Soul King's Stability Done With Alternate Methods

Evidence suggests the Soul King stabilizes the worlds via magical components and/or other unknown factors that are independent of his statistics.

Evidence 1: Soul King Is a Lynchpin

This point doesn't use much besides the scan I already posted. The Soul King sustaining the world's is only ever said to be the case when he is a lynchpin for the world, which would imply that his role as a lynchpin specifically is a special competent for doing it, not his power.

This will be elaborated on later, but what also helps suggest this point is Yhwach. He had the Soul King absorbed, and despite dying twice to Ichigo, the worlds in the Bleach cosmology were not at all getting destroyed. Yhwach sustaining the worlds is only ever made the case when he becomes the new lynchpin to replace Reio.

Evidence 2: Soul King's Life Force

Read these scans to see the upcoming details.

Shown here, Ichigo slices apart the Soul King, which starts the crumbling of the worlds the very moment Reio is killed:







To counteract the crumbling of the worlds, Ukitake unleashes from inside of him Mimihagi, the right arm of the Soul King who he has now become:









By unleashing Mimihagi, Ukitake stops the crumbling of the worlds:



Mimhagi does this by physically latching itself onto Reio's sliced-apart corpse, replacing him as the Soul King to keep the worlds stabilized. However, this is outright said to only last as long as Ukitake's life lasts:





Mimihagi was able to become a temporary soul king by physically latching itself onto Reio's corpse, stopping the crumbling of the worlds, and it’s outright said that the stabilization of the worlds would only last as long as Ukitake’s lifespan does since Ukitake and Mimihagi became the same entity. This implies that stabilizing the worlds with life force is another possibility to consider here for this. Even moreso, Mimihagi is the right arm of the Soul King, so by physically attaching itself to the one it was once apart of, it temporarily becoming a lynchpin makes sense, even if not done with the soul kings life force.

Counter-Argument: "This is still wrong, Reio stabilizes the worlds with nothing else but his power"

For this claim, if this is supposed to be the case, precise evidence is needed for this. As outlined in our new standards for stability feats, it would need to be specifically proved that the power of the Soul King is what's being used as the method for sustaining the cosmology.

Requirement 2: Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.

On top of that, this still wouldn't change anything about this downgrade. Even if everything presented so far is irrelevant, and Reio does stabilize the worlds with actual power, it still isn’t quantifiable to keep this upgrade.

Reason 4: The Soul King Stabilizing The Cosmology Isn't 3-A or Low 2-C

Outlined in our new standards for stabilization feats, one of the requirements is to prove that a character's stabilization is equal to the destructive output released by the structure's destruction. So if for example, for stabilization to be 3-A or Low 2-C, the character's sustenance would need to be able to rival the destructive output of a universe being completely destroyed instantly, or immediately. And that's not the case here for Bleach.

The destruction of the worlds brought forth by the Soul Kings death isn’t instant or immediate in any way, shape or form. The best we see and get from the crumbling of the worlds is a dimensional quake trembling through the worlds, and not all of the worlds are even effected the same way. The Soul society violently shakes, Hueco Mundo shakes to a lesser extent, and the world of the living gets a mild long lasting quake where nothing gets destroyed at all.





Counter-argument: "Multiple characters make a point of saying without the Soul King the entire bleach universe would cease to be."

I keep seeing this get passed around, so I'm addressing it here. We seem to be at the point where claims of "the universe will cease to exist!" or anything similar as an end result of what happens is automatically enough to keep 3-A or Low 2-C ratings on the table. It isn't.

We know that "the universe would cease to be" is a thing as the end result of the Soul King no longer being alive to keep that from happening. But that being the conclusion doesn't at all matter here when looking at just how the destruction unfolds. The result of what happens in the end is completely irrelevant against the fact that the destruction itself isn't instant or immediate destruction. The destruction starts instantly / immediately, but it doesn't happen instantly / immediately, as you can see above. The destruction spans over an extensively long timeframe, to the point where nothing dimensionally even begins to deteriorate. And as mentioned, the destruction isn't even treated the same across all of the effected worlds.

The destruction happening here isn't 3-A destruction, let alone Low 2-C levels of it. So the Soul King wouldn't need output on either levels to stop the worlds from crumbling, even if he stabilizes the cosmology with power and not an alternate method. Now to get to the 2nd issue with this upgrade.

Second Issue: Yhwach Destroying The Worlds

I said earlier that Soul King's feat being invalidated would, overall, effect the entire upgrade. I'll be going over the reasons now.

Reason 1: Yhwach's lack of power

This one is simple enough to start on. With the Soul Kings passive feat being invalid and unquantifiable now, Yhwach absorbing him, Mimihagi and Ichigos power's to get a strength buff from them is logistically impossible to give him power to be 3-A or Low 2-C, which puts into question his capability of destroying the worlds without a shadow of a doubt.

Reason 2: Yhwach "Destroying" the Garganta

Small pivot here, but its part of the feat, so I'm addressing it. According to this statement here made by Ganju, the Garganta would be destroyed if they lost in the end:




This comment from Ganju is the only direct statement we get here about the Garganta being effected with everything else. There's 2 issues with this claim of Yhwach destroying the Garganta, as I mentioned in the beginning of this thread. And they both involve Ganju's statement here.

Problem 1: Ganju's NOT a credible source here

I'm laying it out here. Why in the world are we taking the words of someone who, last I checked, is an ordinary fodder in his own verse as literal for this upgrade? Especially for destruction that's as large as this? This isn't as if Ganju is well experienced into the subject of the worlds crumbling as a result of the Soul Kings death. We've heard statements about the destruction of the worlds from several people much more experienced and credible into the topic than Ganju. And not once do we get another statement from them about the Garganta being effected, aside from Ganju jumping to those conclusions. This is pretty akin to an ordinary person thinking someone far stronger than they are could do things they cant actually do. AKA, this looks more like overhyping being done.

And that's not the worst of this issue.

Problem 2: Ganju's Statement Supposedly Being About Yhwach

Even if Ganju is somehow a credible person to be speaking on this subject, this statement still isn't speaking about Yhwach's plans of returning the Bleach cosmos back to the original universe. This statement is referring to the death of the Soul King causing it to be destroyed.

Go to these four chapters yourself for more clarification. When he made this comment about the Garganta's destruction, Ganju was not yet made aware of Yhwach's plans to return the Bleach cosmos back into the original universe. He was speaking about the Soul King's death being the cause of that since he came to the Soul King's palace with Ichigo to stop Yhwach from killing him in the first place. And throughout the span of the 4 chapters I linked, he is involved in Yoruichi's ambush to use the Garganta and sneak their way back into Reio's position in the palace, which again, refers back to their plan of stopping Reio's death. Ichigo, Ganju and the others were not yet made aware of Yhwach absorbing the Soul King into him, nor were they aware of his true motives. Which means, Ganju did not have Yhwach's plan in mind when making this statement. So what would his comment be referring to?

Simple. It's referring to the death of the Soul King causing it. Without this, there is no known evidence of Yhwach being able to destroy the Garganta. Moving on.

Reason 3: The Silver Arrow Penetrating Yhwach

Counter-argument: "Yhwach being hit with Silver Arrow is Plot Induced Stupidity"

Yeah, but no, PIS isn’t an excuse here. At least in this manner it isn't. We've heard time and time again about Yhwach not seeing Uryu and the arrow with the Almighty's precog is PIS, and that is indeed true.

But Attack Potency and Durability are a different story. The arrow physically penetrated Yhwach at point blank range, which would be impossible to happen if he were legitimately 3-A or Low 2-C:




To add insult to injury, even WITH the currently accepted upgrades, Uryu isn’t accepted as being either 3-A or Low 2-C with Silver Arrow, so we acknowledge that the arrow isn't that strong, making it a legitimate anti feat for Yhwach to be penetrated by it. Which further puts his upgrade into question.

Not only that, but Plot Induced Stupidity also can’t be used here as an argument when this feat is Yhwaches only 3-A / Low 2-C feat for the upgrade and has no prior feat on this scale to substantiate it. In order or something to be Plot Induced Stupidity, a character needs prior feats on the proposed level or near it to make it PIS. Like a character consistently known as a Multiversal being getting harmed by planetary attacks in one instance, or if a mountain leveler is knocked out by a city block level opponent. Those would be PIS. But if a character does not possess feats on higher scales above the lower tier they are displayed in, an argument for that character suffering from PIS cant be substantiated. In Yhwach's case, we know the silver arrow is PIS against the Almighty since seeing all futures should have allowed him to see Uryu's attack easily. However, in the sense of a tier upgrade, Yhwach has no previous feats outside of this one near this level to argue PIS, so the counter argument here falls apart. This leads me into another smaller point to address.

Reason 4: Yhwach Doesn't Stabilize The Worlds

I said this before, but I'll go into a bit more detail here. Yhwach doesn’t stabilize the worlds, despite having the Soul King absorbed, as he was not yet made into a lynchpin or put into the same position as Reio was to stabilize the worlds. This is proven by the fact that despite dying twice to Ichigo, the dimensional quaking across the worlds didn’t happen either time Yhwach was killed. This is in contrast to Mimihagi and the Soul King's deaths effecting the worlds. The dimensional quaking started immediately after both Reio, the lynchpin, died and after Mimihagi, who attached itself to Reio, was absorbed by Yhwach. If Yhwach was legitiamtely doing the same thing as the former 2, this would also have been the case for him, and Ichigo would have been more cautious against killing the person who's supposedly keeping all of the world's in check. But neither is the case for what happened.

Adding to that, the new stabilization standards would also invalidate this for Yhwach, the same way it does for Reio.

Reason 5: Yhwach Destroying The Worlds Isnt 3-A or Low 2-C Destruction

We get to the biggest issue against Yhwach's upgrade out of them all. And that's the timeframe of the feat. Yhwach was destroying the worlds overtime, as previous scans show above. This feat was not immediate, let alone instant, to substantiate the feat using 3-A to Low 2-C power all in one instance. It is mostly built on guesstimates of what Yhwach was planning to do versus what he was actually doing here.

Counter-argument: "This is a common villian trope, Yhwach was stopped by Ichigo and Uryu before he could destroy the worlds, it's not a reason to invalidate the feat"

No, “Villain Trope” isn’t a counter argument for this like some want to believe here. Because even WITH that argument being the case, there needs to be actual evidence that Yhwach was actually CAPABLE of doing the feat in the first place, which we aren’t given here. When it comes to the idea of characters "being stopped" before their feats are done, it's one thing to claim that when the character is clearly capable of performing what they intend to do. But when it's not taken into account that the character ultimately has failed to show and prove that they are able to complete their feats, beyond any reasonable doubt, that excuse isn't flying to support an upgrade this large that has little to stand on.

Since I saw this brought up in the upgrade thread for Bleach for comparison, I'll be addressing the false equivalency here. An example of a legitimate case of villain tropes being acceptable to keep a tier is with Zamasu from Dragon Ball Super. Zamasu is a false equivalence to this since, unlike the case with Yhwach, Zamasu can be considered 2-C because Zamasu has actual evidence of being capable of becoming 2-C. He already became one with the space-time of Future Trunks's timeline, and was also appearing in Goku's present timeline. That proves Zamasu was able to breech into a different timeline after already becoming the entirety of another timeline. Breeching the timelines proves, beyond a reasonable doubt, that its factually in Zamasu's capabilities to become one with more than one timeline, hence his eventual 2-C rating. Zen'o destroying Zamasu before he finished doesn't change that fact that Zamasu was capable of it and was actually doing the feat.

Yhwach, on the other hand, doesn't have that kind of support to sustain the "villain trope" argument. With Reio's stability feat no longer amounting to anything, Yhwach absorbing his, Mimihagi's and Ichigo's power shows he doesnt get 3-A to Low 2-C power with amps. Yhwach's own stability feat no longer exists due to the same thing, and the fact that his death did not cause the worlds to begin collapsing again like Reio and Mimihagi's did. And on top of all of this, Yhwach is never portrayed during his last moments to actually breech more than what was shown to us, the seireitei of the Soul Society. No evidence that Yhwach was, in those moments, effecting the dimensions actually exists. Because of all of this, there's no guarantee beyond reasonable doubts that Yhwach was producing 3-A or Low 2-C power in that instance. We have no real clue on what was going to happen or how the destruction would unfold.

The only leg that this feat has to stand up on to be considered that high at this point is relying on statements of Yhwach destroying the worlds and Yhwach himself being sure of performing the feat. These are guesstimates. And I'd like to just remind everyone of how considerably high this upgrade actually is given the fact that the very next tier these characters land in without the upgrade is High 6-A.

High 6-A?

Yes, High 6-A's the tier these characters would be at without the upgrade. 5-B and 5-A are no longer a thing either.

5-B / 5-A Bleach God Tiers were only a thing to begin with because we initially went with the assertion that the Soul King's weakened state stabilized the individual planets across the Living World, Soul Society, and Hueco Mundo to give that rating. But recently, we abandoned that notion for the weakened Soul King and now go with him stabilizing the actual universes in the Cosmology themselves. Now that the new stability standards no longer accepts the Soul King's stability feat, 5-B and 5-A would also no longer be possible under these circumstances. This leaves High 6-A as the only tier left for the god tiers to start from.

On this note, I'll leave it at this. Would this realistically be enough to keep an upgrade at this level? Are we seriously going to allow guesstimates and statements as viable enough solid evidences to sustain an upgrade that has a verse climb a whopping FIFTEEN tiers all at once?

End Results:

If you kept up with what I've said here, this is why I advocate for the downgrades. Little is left for the upgrade to be supported and accepted under these circumstances.

The only part of this, from what I see, that might remain unchanged is the Prime version of the Soul King keeping 3-A / Low 2-C through the Almighty, and only with the Almighty. And even that's fishy since the official translations of the CFYOW Bleach novel that details the Soul King's creation of the cosmology is not yet going to be available for a couple of months. Ideally, we should wait until official information like that is available to use before applying such high level upgrades.

Other than that, these are the end results should the downgrade get passed:

  • Reio could possibly keep 3-A and Low 2-C, but strictly with the Almighty's hax, his statistics get downgraded to High 6-A.
  • Reio could possibly be put at unknown or just plainly High 6-A should we decide to wait for the official translation of the upcoming volume in the CFYOW novel, which I think is more preferable.
  • Ichigo, Aizen, Orihimes Shields, Yhwach and Weakened Reio get downgraded all together to High 6-A.

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:
 
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To ask since I likely missed it last time, but what ever happened to the movie feat/statement with the Tier 5 cannon?
The Low 5-B part of the movie feat is still canon, so the God Tiers should start from a baseline of Low 5-B based on Memories of Nobody and not High 6-A.

I’ll address the OP in a fat second lol just woke up.
 

Qawsedf234

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. In Yhwach's case, we know the silver arrow is PIS against the Almighty since seeing all futures should have allowed him to see Uryu's attack easily. However, in the sense of a tier upgrade, Yhwach has no previous feats outside of this one near this level to argue PIS, so the counter argument here falls apart. This leads me into another smaller point to address.
Also minor point here, but the Arrow isn't PIS against the Almighty. It explicitly nullified his powers and Aizen's hypnosis allowed him to alter what future Yhwach could see. Its a Deus Ex Machina mind you, but not PIS in the same sense than Superman one shotting a 1-A character is.
 
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This in my opinion would only scale to the Prime Soul King if anything. Evidence would need to be required to prove Reio is still above that feat in his weakened state.
CFYOW states Yhwach had the full power of the Reio. Plus in the movie they were going to use the Sokyoku fueled by a couple hundred Shinigami iirc to blow up the dimension that had all those blanks. Those same blanks that performed that feat.

Before I go in depth in my defense. Stil Silver is Yhwach’s kryptonite + Jugram states that Uryu’s ability is the perfect counter to Yhwach. So (while we don’t know cuz the ending was quick) it’s implied Uryu landed the hit thru unconventional means.
 
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CFYOW states Yhwach had the full power of the Reio. Plus in the movie they were going to use the Sokyoku fueled by a couple hundred Shinigami iirc to blow up the dimension that had all those blanks. Those same blanks that performed that feat.
Yeah but the problem is that Reio's power in his weakened state isnt consistently shown to be so extremely superior to non-god tiers other than Aizen.

Btw, I particularly dont mind Low 5-B or High 6-A, im just pointing out evidence would be needed to say Reios weakened form is still above ordinary beings since, you know, hes a corpse. And Prime Reio obviously scales for obvious reasons.
 
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People who are non-staff that weren't given the OK to speak here like Arc and I was need to cease replying.

If you disagree with the downgrades, give your concerns to Arc and have him post them here in his counter arguments.
 

AKM sama

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This is staff only, regular members can't talk here.
It's okay, he was responding with the intention of clearing some doubt so I won't delete his comment. But it will be appreciated if people send their arguments to Arc and Kukui if they have something to say instead of spamming this thread.
 
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Full power of the Reio implies prime Reio not weakened Reio via Occam’s Razor.

So like the Low 5-B scaling would go:

SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach (the one likely referred to) ~ TS HoS Ichigo < 5-10x with TB HoS < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post Restored Bankai Ichigo.

I’m going to create a really long post detailing the 3 best ways to scale the God Tiers imo and then let staff decide and hash it out for which is better. Kinda not feeling the 1 v staff rn. However, High 6-A is woefully inaccurate when we have numerous statements that Yhwach would destroy the three realms. And the “on screen feats or it didn’t happen argument” is quite disingenuous, if that’s going to be grandstanded then this site prolly needs a site wide revision for consistency.
 

Qawsedf234

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I’m going to create a really long post detailing the 3 best ways to scale the God Tiers imo and then let staff decide and hash it out for which is better. Kinda not feeling the 1 v staff rn. However, High 6-A is woefully inaccurate when we have numerous statements that Yhwach would destroy the three realms. And the “on screen feats or it didn’t happen argument” is quite disingenuous, if that’s going to be grandstanded then this site prolly needs a site wide revision for consistency.
Yeah, from what I remember of earlier stuff some form of Tier 5 can be justified if nothing else.
 
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However, High 6-A is woefully inaccurate when we have numerous statements that Yhwach would destroy the three realms. And the “on screen feats or it didn’t happen argument” is quite disingenuous, if that’s going to be grandstanded then this site prolly needs a site wide revision for consistency.
I will wait for your counter argument, but I will address this point from the OP.

When you are shooting for a drastically huge tier upgrade and don't have prior supporting feats to give it support (the stability feats are nulled now), its going to at the very absolute least be extremely questionable and not quite as ironclad as you want to think it is.
 

Damage3245

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I'm in agreement with the majority of the OP so far. I don't have a whole lot more to add at this stage but I'll see what other arguments and counter-arguments come up.
 

Qawsedf234

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Giving him that much more work is obviously setting him up to fail. I mean how blatant does this get?

Either allow the other Bleach supporters in, or make it a 1v1.
I get where AKM/others are coming from in terms of limiting the thread, but I agree with this point. Just making it Arc seems unfair, especially when there's multiple staff members who can comment in favor of Professor.
 

AKM sama

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Just making it Arc seems unfair, especially when there multiple staff members who can comment in favor of Professor.
And there are multiple staff members who can comment in favor of Arc if Arc's arguments are good. This isn't a boxing ring where 1 person is trying to fight others. This is just a platform to make arguments and the better argument will have people agreeing with it. Either way, from what I have seen, @Duedate8898 is also a Bleach supporter who seems unbiased and rational so I wouldn't mind if he pitches in.
 
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I get where AKM/others are coming from in terms of limiting the thread, but I agree with this point. Just making it Arc seems unfair, especially when there's multiple staff members who can comment in favor of Professor.
I dont know where this idea of staff immediately agreeing with the small points I made here is coming from.

But yeah we should at least stop responding here and wait for Arc to give his counter arguments.
 

Zaratthustra

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I don't care for the tiering of Bleach even if I like the series.

I can see Akm's points and can agree with them but I don't agree with letting just Arc to debate/argument for Bleach. He's just one person versus ten+. Even if he were to organize his thoughts after consulting other supporters of the series, it will still be hard because it's not just 1 vs 1 debates or one vs a few staff members.

Either let more bleach supporters to debate or why even bother with this if it will be a majority vs one. This is the reverse situation of the Upgrade Thread where it was tens of supporters vs several staff members. Just looking here I think there are already more staff than they were in the upgrade thread.

So, I propose several other supporters to be chosen from the non-staff to debate as well. You can choose who you would think will no cause trouble and actually know their 'verse' and the like.
 
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Well, having more staff is kinda the required solution to this since the opposite problem was present last time.

That said, why aren't Warren and TOAA allowed to comment here? They're supposed to be staff arent they? And AKM gave permission for DueDate to come as well.
 

Qawsedf234

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I dont know where this idea of staff immediately agreeing with the small points I made here is coming from.
Because multiple already have. Its not against you as a note, but there's already multiple staff members against the upgrade in the thread against more or less one person who's shown support in keeping it. Its just not that fair. Either no one comments and its just you two or we let more people in; at least that's my view of it.
 
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If we are suggesting other members like Duedate, then I'd recommend letting Imade comment. I haven't seen a person more knowledgeable on Bleach than Imade.
 

DemonGodMitchAubin

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I agree more regular users should be allowed to participate, and instead of staff choosing who gets to participate on their behalf, maybe the regular users can pick some of their own to help argue against the upgrade?
 

AKM sama

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I also want to nominate Sigurd. So I guess if I'm allowed to bring with me some help, I'd greatly appreciate it if Sigurd and Imade are allowed to comment. That's all.
 

AKM sama

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I can see Akm's points and can agree with them but I don't agree with letting just Arc to debate/argument for Bleach. He's just one person versus ten+.
Let me just clarify this now. There is no one against "ten" here. Arc isn't debating with all the staff present here. Arc has also got TOAA, Duedate, Warren, and Imade to make points, all these people are Bleach fans, and agreed with the upgrade. Damage and DemonGodMitch also agreed with it and they are here too.

Meanwhile, Kukui and Matt are the only ones here who didn't agree. As for me, I said whatever I had to say in the OP because I couldn't take part in the last thread and won't be available for the most part after an hour or so.

As you can see, most staff members here are neutral and Arc has more members to help him out than Kukui. I don't see how that is unfair.
 

DemonGodMitchAubin

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AKM Sama is very true, I very much enjoy Bleach

For now, I will wait to give my final opinion until I see the counter arguments because what is being said in the OP seems very solid, but since I don't know much about Bleach scaling as a whole and am primarily neutral on how this turns out in the grand scheme of things, I want to see what the other side has to say before agreeing to downgrade the verse from 3-A to Low 2-C
 

Zaratthustra

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Let me just clarify this now. There is no one against "ten" here. Arc isn't debating with all the staff present here. Arc has also got TOAA, Duedate, Warren, and Imade to make points, all these people are Bleach fans, and agreed with the upgrade. Damage and DemonGodMitch also agreed with it and they are here too.

Meanwhile, Kukui and Matt are the only ones here who didn't agree. As for me, I said whatever I had to say in the OP because I couldn't take part in the last thread and won't be available for the most part after an hour or so.

As you can see, most staff members here are neutral and Arc has more members to help him out than Kukui. I don't see how that is unfair.
Before I said my part there was just one blue name aka Arc then the rest were agreed to be on. At the same time Warren is not that present.

My bad if I didn't explain better but I wanted to mean that non-staff members who are the supporters.
 

AKM sama

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also you can’t just ignore the staff who FRA’d this before Arc even got an argument in, so it ain’t just three people.
And staff can agree with Arc again later if he makes better points. Also, you and the others discussing in the General Bleach Discussion Thread keep bringing up stuff to make this seem like "users vs staff" yet you ignore that the 20 people who gave kudos to the OP are mostly regular members. I'd appreciate if people can drop their hostile act and if you could stop interrupting this thread. Thank you.
 

Shadowbokunohero

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I have a soft spot for Bleach myself, but I feel that my enjoyment for the series is spoiled by the toxicity often surrounding it in forums and fans. I would hope that this thread isn't like that.
Same, I started the first 4 Bankai Discussion Threads on the wiki back in 18.

I like the series, I'm just not that fond of the Discourse around it or any of the HST series for that matter.
 

Crabwhale

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If non-staff want to be here they should go through the standard procedure of getting a staff member to vouch for them, otherwise no. And the derailing certainly isn't helping right now.
 
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So I'm going to talk about 6 different ways I believe you can scale the Bleach God Tiers. The only feat I'm not going to mention is the lifting the Quincy palace feat because that is way too subjective with the bajillion distance calcs and the various timeframes you could assume.

Gremmy's Meteor, Kenpachi, and Hikone
  • Scaling Chain: Meteor < ShiKen ~ Gerard ~ Byakuya ~ Tokinada ~ Grimmjow < Res Grimmjow (5-10x) ~ Hikone < Gentei Kaijo Released Hikone (5x) < Res Hikone (5-10x) < TS Ichigo < Almighty Yhwach < TS HoS Ichigo (5-10x) ~ SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach < TB HoS Ichigo (5-10x) < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post-Restoration TB/Inner Zangetsu Ichigo < Prime ReiO (he still scales to his creation feat).
  • Tiering: This sits the God Tiers anywhere from 3125-50000x greater than that meteor or Multi-Continental.
  • This meta is simple, meteor happens on screen you just have to calc it.
  • The biggest downside with this imo is the fact that it chooses to ignore factoring in any of the more crazy creation and destruction statements in favor of a "on screen feats or it didn't happen" approach. Which isn't inherently wrong, but it does lead to potential extreme lowball. Why, because it is facetious to claim that if it didn't happen on screen it is invalid. Kubo among other authors can't always show universal and beyond feats without ruining their narrative, so instead they use statements. The problem I further take with this is that I know on this site we scale off of statements and not feats alone, we scale off of statements for Bleach with earlier stuff. So if it's going to be a feats only deal then the entire site needs a revamp, else it's just blatant sticklering for Bleach.
The blanks are capable of slamming planets
  • https://4anime.to/anime/bleach-movie-1-memories-of-nobody (please support the official release if you can but if not here it is)
  • https://vsbattles.com/threads/problems-with-the-senna-calculation-bleach.53844/
  • Scaling Chain: Blanks (5-B) < WSK < TS Ichigo < Almighty Yhwach < TS HoS Ichigo (5-10x) ~ SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach < TB HoS Ichigo (5-10x) < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post-Restoration TB/Inner Zangetsu Ichigo < Prime ReiO (still got that creation thang on him).
  • Tiering this sits the God Tiers anywhere from 5-B all the way up to 5-B/5-A or Planetary to Large Planetary.
  • The crux of this scaling is this, the Blanks are a small portion of the Soul Cycle that get lost in Valleys of Screams, so if the Soul King is scaling vastly above stray Blanks then he should scale vastly above their 5-B feat.
  • This meta falls under the same scrutiny as the meteor meta, it just yields a bigger number because it's more impressive. The reason I think this is a better meta than the meteor meta for the God Tiers is because it more directly ties to the Soul King. The meteor just follows a chain up to Ichigo, while the Blanks provide a direct link to the Soul Cycle and therefore the Soul King.
Gremmy created outer space
  • https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/800086388086931456/gremmy1.PNG, https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/800086402364342342/gremmy2.PNG, https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/800086416922116106/gremmy3.PNG, https://official-complete.granpulse.us/manga/Bleach/0578-006.png
  • From downtown CFYOW II: "Gremmy Thoumeaux: that was the name of a boy who, barring Yhwach, was said to be the strongest of the Stern Ritter...", "through the V Schrift--The Visionary--that Yhwach had bestowed upon him, had created his flesh body by "imagining" it. He could convert what he imagined into reality, and his abilities were like a god's.", "he had even materialized a gigantic meteorite and outer space itself in the Seireitei.", and "the ability to instantaneously create outer space...".
  • Four instances where we are told that what Gremmy imagines he creates, and what he created was outer space.
  • The first counter I've seen to this: prove Gremmy created the stars there.
    • Rebuttal: Occam's Razor. As there is no direct explanation to why there are stars in the outer space Gremmy created, Occam's Razor states he created them as it is the simplest and easiest assumption to make. What we are shown is what Gremmy imagined and what Gremmy imagines he creates.
  • Second counter: They're there to look cool.
    • Rebuttal: Doesn't matter why they are there, they're still there. Isn't all visual media existing to provoke some kind of emotion while looking at it? This is not an argument valid to discredit the feat.
  • Third counter: Since Gremmy imagined it they're imaginary and not real.
    • Rebuttal: "He could convert what he imagined into REALITY..."
  • Fourth counter: Meteor is much weaker than stars in space so it's not linear and falls apart.
  • Does this scale to AP? Yes it scales to Gremmy's AP, he refers to his abilities as the "power of imagination", everything he does is a creation feat. You can't scale off the meteor and then ignore this as it is contradictory. CFYOW also exclusively talks about Gremmy's creation abilities when refering to him as the strongest, so by some measure or another even the verse recognizes that Gremmy scales to his Visionary.
  • Does Kenpachi scale? Maybe. Here we see Kenpachi tank the clones that imagined that outer space and here we have Gremmy admit that Kenpachi is greater than his imagination. Kenpachi tanked those clones whose combined AP would be relative to the outer space they created in combination with Gremmy admitting that Kenpachi's true power surpasses the limits of his imagination support Kenpachi upscaling this. However, I still understand the skepticism with Kenpachi.
  • Does anyone concretely scale above Gremmy's creation feats? Yhwach does. CFYOW II talks about how what made Gremmy the strongest was his creation feats and then also goes on to say he was still second to Yhwach. Yhwach would have had to imprison Gremmy some time prior to getting his Almighty back as younger people like Liltotto and Askin are aware of the Gremmy situation, but being that it is vague I'll go with Almighty Yhwach
  • This leaves us with at least the following scaling chain: Gremmy (4-A) < Almighty Yhwach ~ TS Ichigo (tanked an attack from Yhwach with only burns) < TS HoS Ichigo (5-10x) ~ SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach < TB HoS Ichigo (5-10x) < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post-Restoration TB/Inner Zangetsu Ichigo < Prime ReiO (hinga dinga universe created).
  • Tiering sits them at 4-A or Multi-Solar System level.
  • Again this falls under the same scrutiny as the last two. It's on screen, it happens, but it ignores the use of any statements regarding what Yhwach is capable of.
A quick timeout
So I want to address the past three metas/feats and the big issue I see with all of them. Foremost they are all on screen and happen so you can't really argue against their validity, the Memories of Nobody feat is a little less iffy than Gremmy as it's debatable how Gremmy even scales to his feats in general. In terms of most valid to least valid of the above three I'd rank them as Memories of Nobody > Meteor > Outer Space. My issue comes in when we consider that using these metas in general means you are ignoring this, which I will explain it's relevance in scaling below.

Hell Verse
  • Kubo created Hell's design so the design and structure is at least canon. He also said the Ulq vs VL Ichigo fight in the movie was closer to how he envisioned it, so you could argue the showings in the movie are canon representations of VL Ichigo.
  • https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/800111642129203220/Hell_Verse_Size.PNG
  • Scaling Chain: SE Ulq ~ VL Ichigo (3-A) < Fourth Fusion Aizen < Fifth Fusion Aizen < Dangai/Mugetsu Ichigo = TS Ichigo < Almighty Yhwach < TS HoS Ichigo (5-10x) ~ SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach < TB HoS Ichigo (5-10x) < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post-Restoration TB/Inner Zangetsu Ichigo < Prime ReiO (murbles).
  • Tiering: Universal.
  • Or if you don't want to go by the statement on Hell's size being multiple universes and stick to multiple worlds we have the same chain but with 5-B to 5-A, Ichigo is concerned his Hollow would destroy the world.
  • I'm half including this for the meme, but I think it's worth noting that this movie potentially means that Kubo and the staff working on Bleach think Ichigo is universal.
Destroying the 3 Realms of Existence (this is what I argue)
  • I'm going to start by debunking points AKM made.
  • "Evidence suggests Reio stabilizes the worlds via stabilizing just the universal flow of souls, not the worlds in the Cosmology themselves."
    • Allow me to steelman the argument that SK is only stabilizing the flow of souls. Ganryu states that there are an infinite amount of souls, this is supported by Hell being multi-universal in size, further supported by the flow being universal, and even further supported by the Garganta being infinite (so it can house infinite souls). Stabilizing infinite souls (as souls possess non-zero energy) would be a High 3-A stability feat.
  • "However, I argue that this is just being taken out of context. Because Yhwach also specifies in this comment that "massive numbers of Konpaku pass through" the soul society that Reio stabilizes. Why would the flow of souls be mentioned if it wasn't at all a factor in keeping the soul society in check?"
    • You're now assuming that the mechanism that stabilizes the worlds is the flow of souls and not the other way around. We are told the Soul King stabilizes the Soul Society. He can stabilize the flow of souls too, but he is without a doubt stabilizing the entire Soul Society as per the scan you provided. I'll go into the size of the Soul Society later.
  • "The Soul King is never said to stabilize the worlds here. Instead, its outright said that the Soul King controls the universal flow of souls"
    • As per the scan you provided with Yhwach this means that the Soul King stabilizes Soul Society and controls the universal flow. And again Ganryu states there are an infinite amount of souls.
  • "You are still wrong, Reio does not sustain the flow of souls, he sustains the worlds"
    • He does both, it's not one or the other, it's both. You've provided scans saying such.
  • "The Soul King sustaining the world's is only ever said to be the case when he is a lynchpin for the world, which would imply that his role as a lynchpin specifically is a special competent for doing it, not his power."
    • Here we find out that the whatever the Soul King is at the time uses spiritual power (Reiryoku) to stabilize whatever it stabilizes. This means that yes the Soul King does use his power to stabilize the Soul Society and Universal flow of souls. This correlates to the Reio for this reason, they mention that because Yhwach had the Reio's power he was able to stabilize the worlds. <- This is the precise evidence needed for stability using power, it's stated that spiritual power is used.
  • "The destruction of the worlds brought forth by the Soul Kings death isn’t instant or immediate in any way, shape or form. The best we see and get from the crumbling of the worlds is a dimensional quake trembling through the worlds, and not all of the worlds are even effected the same way."
    • I'll go into the size of SS and whatnot later to prove that overtime doesn't matter as destroying a 4D space in a finite time is still above destroying an infinite space instantly. However, the claim made by AKM was that stabilizing the entire cosmos isn't means for it, to that I say Aura says the Garganta is infinite thus, regardless of the time it's a High 3-A feat.
  • "With the Soul Kings passive feat being invalid and unquantifiable now, Yhwach absorbing him, Mimihagi and Ichigos power's to get a strength buff from them is logistically impossibleto give him power to be 3-A or Low 2-C, which puts into question his capability of destroying the worlds without a shadow of a doubt."
    • If I steelman and say the stability feat is invalid, it doesn't matter. Yhwach still scales off of this. It doesn't matter if you can't quantify the WSK, that by no means disqualifies the various statements. All it does is call into question if the WSK is unquantifiable.
  • "Ganju's not a credible source"
    • As a member of one of the Noble Houses that partook in the original formation and outcome that resulted from forming the Bleach universe, Ganju or any Shiba for that matter would be one of the MOST credible sources to comment on the collapse of the Bleach universe. You claim we shouldn't take his word because power-wise he is fodder... last I checked a character's power level did not determine their credibility. Ganju is giving exposition as well, as in it is what the author wants to convey.
  • "Ganju was not yet made awareof Yhwach's plans to return the Bleach cosmos back into the original universe."
    • Correct he just knew the Soul King's existence was put in danger. And being the Shiba clan member he is, filled with arguably more knowledge on the Soul King aside from the Tsunayashiro clan and Ichibe, still said the Garganta would be destroyed. Implying if anything that the Soul King is stabilizing everything as per the implications of Yhwach's statement. Yhwach also didn't want to revert the universe back, he wanted to destroy and merge everything to create a new universe.
  • "The Silver Arrow"
    • Jugram says Uryu's Antithesis may be the only thing capable of countering Yhwach. Ryuken tells us that Stil Silver is Quincy kryptonite. The notion of that arrow scaling to Uryu's AP is beyond disingenous. We are told that Uryu has the hax to counter Yhwach and then he pierces Yhwach with a special arrow that had the sole purpose of negging all of Yhwach's power. This isn't something that scales to Uryu's stats.
  • "Yhwach doesn't stabilize the worlds"
  • "there needs to be actual evidence that Yhwach was actually CAPABLE of doing the feat in the first place"
    • Multiple statements and the dimensional quakes. Plus the stability feat isn't invalid like you claim it is.
  • "Almighty is hax only"
Quantifying destroying the 3 realms (you can peep my google doc on the old thread for additional info, this is what I argue)
  • We know from Askin that Yhwach was going to destroy Hueco Mundo, Soul Society, and World of the Living.
  • We know that the three realms aren't planets and to argue such is direct admission that the Dangai is a literal pipeline, like in Dakota lol. "If they could be likened" means they cannot be liked to planets as per the if.
  • Here from CFYOW II we see the theory of general relativity is canon to the Bleach universe. Meaning that is it hypothesizes, space and time are linked in a space-time. With my google doc from the og CRT we already had evidence that the Bleach realms were space-times, but this is new and further evidence for it. Also from CFYOW II, Giriko (having bounded with the god of time) claims that time is infinite, which going by general relativity would imply that the WotL (SS is parallel to WotL) is an infinite space-time. What Giriko is telling us is that the WotL is merely an exact replica of our irl universe (which most already assumed or knew). See here for more: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cu8ywQwSxvcd9228Mpruf3OPkRbLrn4lxSX0MLYRSkg/edit?usp=sharing
  • So we know that WotL and by extension SS are at least universal space-times (as the use of infinite qualifies for universal size as per vsbw standards). We also know (see the doc for scans) that the SS and WotL are separate space-times. Destroying two universal space-times separated by a separate space-time is the definition of 2-C.
  • Aura calls the Garganta infinite (check the doc) and Ganryu as I've shown above said there are infinite souls. Even if you want to say they aren't infinite for whatever reasons, the use of infinite is grounds for universal size by VSBW standards. Those infinite souls occupying space in the Garganta. So Garganta is called infinite in size and can contain infinite souls. Two infinite statements for Garganta, it's destruction regardless of the time frame is High 3-A. However, the Garganta is a confirmed space-time as well making its destruction a Low 2-C feat even ignoring all the realm stuff.
  • To conclude Yhwach destroying the current Bleach universe and making a new one would be a Low 2-C to 2-C feat.
Final Meta Dimensional Transcendence
Which do I think is best?
Personally, I believe there exists the largest preponderance of evidence for universal Bleach. Meteor scaling is based off one scan (the meteor), Memory of Nobodies scaling is based off of one feat (planets collide), Outer space scaling is based off one scan and some statements, Hell Verse scaling is based on a more composite scaling, 4D/5D scaling is based on one fight and some databook statements, but universal scaling is based practically on 3 whole novels, numerous statements, and the narrative of the final arc. Thus why I argue universal/low-multi Bleach.

I know Warren and Imade are preparing responses as well. Lmao it apparently took me 5 hours to respond oops.
 
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Warren_Valion

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Introduction

I need to preface this, I have been working on this response for hours, and I will not continue to respond. I am so tired of arguing nonsense like this. There were reasons I left the wiki and I did not come back to constantly keep doing this. I am solely making this response both as the wish of a friend and from the sheer audacity of the claims being made, but this will be the only time.

First things first, I have to point this out, only allowing one or two non-staff members to participate is ludicrous when a majority of Bleach supporters aren’t staff. That is literally silencing the opposition.

Allow 3-5 knowledgeable Bleach regular members to participate. I nominate at least Purgy and AppleLord to join with Arc. Perhaps AnonymousBlank, IMade (If and when is able to appear), and Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye as well.


You all don’t seem to realize the nonsense that is a VS Battle Wiki CRT. When 5-15 guys are dogpiling you, it automatically a losing battle of attrition. A legitimate debate is only possible when there is a comparably equal amount of competent members arguing back and forth on a topic.

Otherwise, this just a fucking circlejerk.

Note: I have been writing this response for hours, so if any changes were made on this topic, I apologize for me being both incorrect and coming off as antagonistic, if I do.


Weakened Soul King/Reio (WSK) Stabilization feat

The main thing I want to mention is that this belief that the current rankings are solely based on the Soul King’s stability feat is ludicrous.

And while, I think a good case can be made to argue that the stabilization feat is legitimate, as it is described that it is via Reiatsu or owns power that the worlds are held up as stated by Jugram here about how without Reio, Yhwach’s power is the only thing that can keep the world standing up.

There are other quotes, I believe, that state the same thing - that the stabilization of the world is done via the person’s power or Reiatsu. But I don’t have the time, resources, or willpower to make the arguments or search for the scans.

For a reminder of the requirements:

Requirement 1: Specify what exactly is being stabilized so that it is made clear what the character's sustainability is doing precisely.

Requirement 2: Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.

Requirement 3: Prove that the character's stabilization is comparable to the scale of the structure they are stabilizing. Preferably, it should be proven that the character's sustainability is comparable to the destruction of the structure to best show that their power rivals the destructive output of what would destroy the structure in the first place. Please keep in mind that this may vary depending on how the structure's destruction would occur. For example, if a character sustains the existence of a universe that would not be instantly or immediately destroyed when no longer supported, the power of their sustainability would not be comparable to destructive output that completely and immediately destroys a universe, and would not be sufficient enough to be given a 3-A or Low 2-C rating. However, their sustainability could be given either rating if the universe they sustain would be completely destroyed instantly or immediately without support.

Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats.


The Weakened Soul King obtains these requirements by:

Requirement 1: Numerous mentions that all three realms are sustained by the Soul King

Requirement 2: It is mentioned that it is through Reiatsu or power that all three realms are being held up.

Requirement 3: Creation began falling apart as soon as the Soul King died, and nowhere was there any mention that there was any time to try and fix this problem, just the opposite, everyone was shouting that they were going to die. And the CFYOW novel says, the one you showed, that the world will “crumble immediately”. Not “START crumbling immediately”, but crumble immediately. This is a direct statement stating immediate destruction.

Requirement 4: Reiatsu is the pressure of their level of energy, and thus, scales to their strength.


I would argue that this is grounds alone for allowing the Weakened Soul King’s stabilization feat to be legitimate.

There are more scans, proof, and arguments on the matter, but as I said earlier, I am not the one who will force himself to find them, that task should be done by a more passionate and knowledgeable member like the ones I have named above.

At the very worst though, all this would do is make the WSK’s tier Unknown, but again, this character’s tiering doesn’t affect the stronger God Tiers of the verse because they scale to different feats.


Mimihagi Stuff

This Mimihagi argument seems to ignore one crucial aspect of Mimihagi’s existence, and that being that it governs stagnation on that which it touches (This is the reason why Mimihagi wouldn’t scale to the stabilization feat because he isn’t using physical power, but hax, instead).

The reasons why Jushiro was alive all these years? It’s because Mimihagi was within him, keeping his illness at bay.

Mimihagi leaving Jushiro means that Jushiro is giving up his life so that he can succumb to this illness to allow the Soul King to be stagnated instead.

By Utikate’s life, they are referring to Mimihagi, as that is how he describes himself, saying that his life is Mimihagi.

Touching the Soul King just means that, instead of being in a state of dying, Mimihagi is forcing him to be within a state of life and death, allowing reality to not crumble away. Allowing his energy to still hold up the world.

Let me explain, in Bleach, there is explicitly described to be a state between Life and Death. It is stated that the Weakened Soul King already exists like this, and it was stated that Yhwach’s existence was made like this as well, this is why and how Yhwach was used to stabilize the worlds even after being “killed” by Ichigo in their fight, if you were wondering that.

Mimihagi isn’t “temporarily becoming the lynchpin”, nothing states this or even implies it, and in fact, the opposite is implied.

Mimihagi is explicitly stated that he is alive, that he is “Ukitake’s life”. This goes in direct contrast to the state of existence that the WSK and Yhwach are in when they are the lynchpin. They exist in such a state of being that completely goes against the idea that a “lifeforce” is what is required to stabilize the worlds.

All that is said is that Mimihagi is stabilizing the worlds in the WSK’s place.

And from what we know about his existence and his powers, the most reasonable assumption to make is to say that he is using his stagnation powers to make it so that Reio doesn’t transition to being fully dead, but maintains that state between Life and Death that he has. In other words, he is simply maintaining the already existing lynchpin, not becoming the next one.


And case and point, after Yhwach absorbed the two of them, guess what didn’t happen? The world wasn’t destroyed. And it was directly stated to be via his power that he is doing this.

You might argue that this is done because he absorbed the Soul King, who was the lynchpin already, making him the lynchpin.

But if that is the case, then why would Yhwach, after he was defeated, be “made into the lynchpin” despite him already having absorbed the WSK and Mimihagi?

The implication is clear, being “made into the lynchpin” isn’t some special circumstance that is required that allows a person to maintain all the worlds. And it has nothing to do with Lifeforce.

What being “made into the lynchpin” means is having the person’s body be thrown into the crystal seal which keeps them locked in place, forcing them to do nothing and directing their power to be the thing to hold up the worlds.


Still Silver Stuff

Are you fucking serious?

Well for one, the Still Silver is a Deus Ex Machina, not Plot Induced Stupidity. It was very clearly explained to do a specific function and it does that function. The only way for this to be PIS is if you think that Uryu is physically scaled to any of the God tiers in Bleach.

Anyway, there is a reason as to why the Still Silver works if you go throughout the arc and pay attention to the crumbs that are left throughout it.

Uryu is explicitly stated, by Yhwach himself, to have “some kind of power” that is superior to Yhwach’s power. Note, this is not physical power, as shown when Uryu gets his ass destroyed by Jugram, Yhwach’s subordinate and inferior.

Still Silver is explicitly stated to nullify Yhwach’s powers momentarily.

Uryu’s Schrift, the Anti-thesis, was stated, by a user of the Almighty, to be the only viable counter to it.

And the arrow is piercing Yhwach from behind him and is pointing either leveled with Yhwach or even downwards (which would be an impossible angle from that difference in height), despite the fact that Uryu is in front of Yhwach, as shown when Yhwach looks down and the panel focus on him, Ichigo looking to his right side, showing the Uryu is next to him, and Ichigo is shown that he is facing the front of Yhwach (Zoom in to see the white of Yhwach’s clothes under his cape). Further proving that Uryu making that shot from his positioning, doesn’t make any sense at all if he was just shooting his bow, there is only one clear way for this to make sense.

With all this information, it is clear that Uryu used the Anti-thesis to send the arrow into Yhwach’s body (Which is hax, not AP), and that the Still Silver head’s nullifying powers are what didn’t allow Yhwach to retaliate as Jugram did, and what allowed Ichigo to kill him.

Ergo, this isn’t an anti-feat.



The Real Scaling

As I mentioned a long time ago in this post, the Stabilization stuff, while I feel an argument can be made for its legitimacy, is 100% irrelevant to the important feats that the God tiers scale too.

Those being the Creation and Destruction of Bleach’s cosmology.

First off, the Creation of almost everything from the Soul King is an explicit creation feat. The fact that this wasn’t brought up at all in this CRT is genuinely baffling. Again, if you want the scans of this, bring in the members that I suggested and they will do as such.

Second off, and more importantly, Yhwach’s destruction/creation feat/statement was briefly mentioned, but the arguments against it are absurd.

Your first point, about how it is “logically impossible” is 100% an Argument from Incredulity and nothing more.

Yhwach is already stronger than both Mimihagi and the WSK. He directly states this to Mimihagi’s face, and he was casually throwing around Ichigo in their brief fight, even tanking a few of his attacks, who was explicitly stated to have reobtained his transcendent power for the purpose of killing the Soul King. And even if you want to argue that Yhwach’s Reiatsu was what allowed Ichigo to do that, that makes it a more direct showing that Almighty Yhwach is > than WSK.

Please explain how absorbing people that he is already stronger than makes him logically incapable of performing a great feat? Absorbing the strength of those you are stronger than doesn’t make you weaker than them initially or dependent on them for a significant boost in power. This is like saying, since Yhwach absorbed Jugram and Gerad’s power, that means that he should scale to their level of strength, no, not everyone is Majin Buu - just because he is absorbing another's power, does not mean that is because they are stronger than he is.

This argument you are making doesn’t make any sense. There is nothing here that even remotely suggest a limit to Yhwach’s power that would make scaling Yhwach to his Tier 3/2 statements/feats inconsistent or “logically impossible”, the only thing here that would suggest that is your own lack of belief that Yhwach could be that strong, and that is a fallacy, not an argument.

Yhwach was explicitly stated to desire to create a world without the fear of Death which was stopped due to Ichigo killing him. Essentially he would reverse what the Soul King originally did; At first, he was going to do this by letting Ichigo kill the Soul King who was stabilizing the three worlds and everything connected to them, and then in the aftermath, create his own world. But instead, Yhwach decided to “take everything from” Reio, absorbing both him and Mimihagi, preferring to fuse the worlds together with his power instead, which was said that no one besides Yhwach had the power to do such a thing (Askin stating this shows that this was Yhwach’s plan all along and he didn’t make up this shit as he went along), and we even see him using his Reiatsu (Yes, that black energy is confirmed to be Yhwach’s Reiatsu) and begin to do just that before his power is nulled by the Still Silver in the very next page for a brief moment, which Yhwach then considers inconsequential as it is only a temporary buffer that was already vanishing by the time Ichigo reached him to cut him down.

Showing that yes, the “villain trope” is what is happening here exactly.

To argue that this character’s entire goal and motivation that were meticulously planned for a thousand years, and the thing he was doing before having his power nulled for a moment, which even he found a pointless victory, wasn’t going to actually happen despite everything in the series saying as such is pure unadulterated headcanon, and I cannot believe it is being argued otherwise.


Miscellaneous Stuff

Why would a character’s power level, or them being physically fodder, mean their statements are inaccurate?

Ganju is a Shiba, a member of one of the five clans that are descendants of the five people who helped the Soul King create the world. It is very possible that he knows a bit about the Soul King and the importance of his destruction.

What even is this point?

And whether he was referring to Reio or Yhwach is irrelevant, because Yhwach's goals are for everything that Reio built to be reversed, to create his own world where Death doesn't exist. Originally he was going to have Reio's death be the catalyst of everything's destruction, and then remake his own world out of that.

Obviously, when he decides to do it himself with his own power, he would still try and destroy the same stuff. Thinking otherwise makes no sense.

Yhwach wanted to destroy everything Reio created, which yes, includes the Dangai and Garganta.


Conclusion

To wrap this up, I heavily disagree with a lot of the claims being made here, I find a majority of them to be baseless and clearly indicative of a lack of proper understanding of the source material.

I highly disapprove, and I once again implore you to allow a handful of non-staff Bleach experts into this thread for discussion as they will provide the will, arguments, and scans that I do not possess.

Thank you and goodbye.


Do not call me back here.
 

Matthew_Schroeder

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A few things:

The Garganta doesn't have an infinite amount of souls, that quote is purely poetic. We know that a finite amount of people have died since the beginning of the universe. You shouldn't put to much stock in it.

If you admit that you included the Hell scaling "Half as a meme", why did you bother going through it at all? Even if it is a non-canon movie? Is it because you just want to try anything at this point? Or just to make the post longer and thus appear more legitimate?

5D Bleach in the context of Aizen's narration is a blatant metaphor for how he is superior to humans and not legitimate in terms of Vs Debating. This was back when Bleach had no feats above even Tier 7, so even if he was 5D it wouldn't matter for scaling and it would never pass the scrutiny for an upgrade, that you chose to include it at all is disappointing and makes me question how much you believe in what you're arguing for.

Bottom line is, don't just throw everything at a wall and hope it sticks. You should remove all joke / non-serious parts of your argument if you want it to be taken as legitimate.
 
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Okay, to just ask outright, which parts of this post of yours are serious and which aren't?

Im asking for clarification on whats the actual arguments.
Universal Bleach.

We know that a finite amount of people have died since the beginning of the universe.
Not in Bleach we don't know that.

5D Bleach in the context of Aizen's narration is a blatant metaphor for how he is superior to humans and not legitimate in terms of Vs Debating. This was back when Bleach had no feats above even Tier 7, so even if he was 5D it wouldn't matter for scaling and it would never pass the scrutiny for an upgrade, that you chose to include it at all is disappointing and makes me question how much you believe in what you're arguing for.

Bottom line is, don't just throw everything at a wall and hope it sticks. You should remove all joke / non-serious parts of your argument if you want it to be taken as legitimate.
I mentioned their purpose in the post.
 

Duedate8898

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So I'm going to talk about 6 different ways I believe you can scale the Bleach God Tiers. The only feat I'm not going to mention is the lifting the Quincy palace feat because that is way too subjective with the bajillion distance calcs and the various timeframes you could assume.

Gremmy's Meteor, Kenpachi, and Hikone
  • Scaling Chain: Meteor < ShiKen ~ Gerard ~ Byakuya ~ Tokinada ~ Grimmjow < Res Grimmjow (5-10x) ~ Hikone < Gentei Kaijo Released Hikone (5x) < Res Hikone (5-10x) < TS Ichigo < Almighty Yhwach < TS HoS Ichigo (5-10x) ~ SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach < TB HoS Ichigo (5-10x) < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post-Restoration TB/Inner Zangetsu Ichigo < Prime ReiO (he still scales to his creation feat).
  • Tiering: This sits the God Tiers anywhere from 3125-50000x greater than that meteor or Multi-Continental.
  • This meta is simple, meteor happens on screen you just have to calc it.
  • The biggest downside with this imo is the fact that it chooses to ignore factoring in any of the more crazy creation and destruction statements in favor of a "on screen feats or it didn't happen" approach. Which isn't inherently wrong, but it does lead to potential extreme lowball. Why, because it is facetious to claim that if it didn't happen on screen it is invalid. Kubo among other authors can't always show universal and beyond feats without ruining their narrative, so instead they use statements. The problem I further take with this is that I know on this site we scale off of statements and not feats alone, we scale off of statements for Bleach with earlier stuff. So if it's going to be a feats only deal then the entire site needs a revamp, else it's just blatant sticklering for Bleach.
The blanks are capable of slamming planets
  • https://4anime.to/anime/bleach-movie-1-memories-of-nobody (please support the official release if you can but if not here it is)
  • https://vsbattles.com/threads/problems-with-the-senna-calculation-bleach.53844/
  • Scaling Chain: Blanks (5-B) < WSK < TS Ichigo < Almighty Yhwach < TS HoS Ichigo (5-10x) ~ SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach < TB HoS Ichigo (5-10x) < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post-Restoration TB/Inner Zangetsu Ichigo < Prime ReiO (still got that creation thang on him).
  • Tiering this sits the God Tiers anywhere from 5-B all the way up to 5-B/5-A or Planetary to Large Planetary.
  • The crux of this scaling is this, the Blanks are a small portion of the Soul Cycle that get lost in Valleys of Screams, so if the Soul King is scaling vastly above stray Blanks then he should scale vastly above their 5-B feat.
  • This meta falls under the same scrutiny as the meteor meta, it just yields a bigger number because it's more impressive. The reason I think this is a better meta than the meteor meta for the God Tiers is because it more directly ties to the Soul King. The meteor just follows a chain up to Ichigo, while the Blanks provide a direct link to the Soul Cycle and therefore the Soul King.
Gremmy created outer space
  • https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/800086388086931456/gremmy1.PNG, https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/800086402364342342/gremmy2.PNG, https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/800086416922116106/gremmy3.PNG, https://official-complete.granpulse.us/manga/Bleach/0578-006.png
  • From downtown CFYOW II: "Gremmy Thoumeaux: that was the name of a boy who, barring Yhwach, was said to be the strongest of the Stern Ritter...", "through the V Schrift--The Visionary--that Yhwach had bestowed upon him, had created his flesh body by "imagining" it. He could convert what he imagined into reality, and his abilities were like a god's.", "he had even materialized a gigantic meteorite and outer space itself in the Seireitei.", and "the ability to instantaneously create outer space...".
  • Four instances where we are told that what Gremmy imagines he creates, and what he created was outer space.
  • The first counter I've seen to this: prove Gremmy created the stars there.
    • Rebuttal: Occam's Razor. As there is no direct explanation to why there are stars in the outer space Gremmy created, Occam's Razor states he created them as it is the simplest and easiest assumption to make. What we are shown is what Gremmy imagined and what Gremmy imagines he creates.
  • Second counter: They're there to look cool.
    • Rebuttal: Doesn't matter why they are there, they're still there. Isn't all visual media existing to provoke some kind of emotion while looking at it? This is not an argument valid to discredit the feat.
  • Third counter: Since Gremmy imagined it they're imaginary and not real.
    • Rebuttal: "He could convert what he imagined into REALITY..."
  • Fourth counter: Meteor is much weaker than stars in space so it's not linear and falls apart.
  • Does this scale to AP? Yes it scales to Gremmy's AP, he refers to his abilities as the "power of imagination", everything he does is a creation feat. You can't scale off the meteor and then ignore this as it is contradictory. CFYOW also exclusively talks about Gremmy's creation abilities when refering to him as the strongest, so by some measure or another even the verse recognizes that Gremmy scales to his Visionary.
  • Does Kenpachi scale? Maybe. Here we see Kenpachi tank the clones that imagined that outer space and here we have Gremmy admit that Kenpachi is greater than his imagination. Kenpachi tanked those clones whose combined AP would be relative to the outer space they created in combination with Gremmy admitting that Kenpachi's true power surpasses the limits of his imagination support Kenpachi upscaling this. However, I still understand the skepticism with Kenpachi.
  • Does anyone concretely scale above Gremmy's creation feats? Yhwach does. CFYOW II talks about how what made Gremmy the strongest was his creation feats and then also goes on to say he was still second to Yhwach. Yhwach would have had to imprison Gremmy some time prior to getting his Almighty back as younger people like Liltotto and Askin are aware of the Gremmy situation, but being that it is vague I'll go with Almighty Yhwach
  • This leaves us with at least the following scaling chain: Gremmy (4-A) < Almighty Yhwach ~ TS Ichigo (tanked an attack from Yhwach with only burns) < TS HoS Ichigo (5-10x) ~ SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach < TB HoS Ichigo (5-10x) < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post-Restoration TB/Inner Zangetsu Ichigo < Prime ReiO (hinga dinga universe created).
  • Tiering sits them at 4-A or Multi-Solar System level.
  • Again this falls under the same scrutiny as the last two. It's on screen, it happens, but it ignores the use of any statements regarding what Yhwach is capable of.
A quick timeout
So I want to address the past three metas/feats and the big issue I see with all of them. Foremost they are all on screen and happen so you can't really argue against their validity, the Memories of Nobody feat is a little less iffy than Gremmy as it's debatable how Gremmy even scales to his feats in general. In terms of most valid to least valid of the above three I'd rank them as Memories of Nobody > Meteor > Outer Space. My issue comes in when we consider that using these metas in general means you are ignoring this, which I will explain it's relevance in scaling below.

Hell Verse
  • Kubo created Hell's design so the design and structure is at least canon. He also said the Ulq vs VL Ichigo fight in the movie was closer to how he envisioned it, so you could argue the showings in the movie are canon representations of VL Ichigo.
  • https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/800111642129203220/Hell_Verse_Size.PNG
  • Scaling Chain: SE Ulq ~ VL Ichigo (3-A) < Fourth Fusion Aizen < Fifth Fusion Aizen < Dangai/Mugetsu Ichigo = TS Ichigo < Almighty Yhwach < TS HoS Ichigo (5-10x) ~ SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach < TB HoS Ichigo (5-10x) < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post-Restoration TB/Inner Zangetsu Ichigo < Prime ReiO (murbles).
  • Tiering: Universal.
  • Or if you don't want to go by the statement on Hell's size being multiple universes and stick to multiple worlds we have the same chain but with 5-B to 5-A, Ichigo is concerned his Hollow would destroy the world.
  • I'm half including this for the meme, but I think it's worth noting that this movie potentially means that Kubo and the staff working on Bleach think Ichigo is universal.
Destroying the 3 Realms of Existence
  • I'm going to start by debunking points AKM made.
  • "Evidence suggests Reio stabilizes the worlds via stabilizing just the universal flow of souls, not the worlds in the Cosmology themselves."
    • Allow me to steelman the argument that SK is only stabilizing the flow of souls. Ganryu states that there are an infinite amount of souls, this is supported by Hell being multi-universal in size, further supported by the flow being universal, and even further supported by the Garganta being infinite (so it can house infinite souls). Stabilizing infinite souls (as souls possess non-zero energy) would be a High 3-A stability feat.
  • "However, I argue that this is just being taken out of context. Because Yhwach also specifies in this comment that "massive numbers of Konpaku pass through" the soul society that Reio stabilizes. Why would the flow of souls be mentioned if it wasn't at all a factor in keeping the soul society in check?"
    • You're now assuming that the mechanism that stabilizes the worlds is the flow of souls and not the other way around. We are told the Soul King stabilizes the Soul Society. He can stabilize the flow of souls too, but he is without a doubt stabilizing the entire Soul Society as per the scan you provided. I'll go into the size of the Soul Society later.
  • "The Soul King is never said to stabilize the worlds here. Instead, its outright said that the Soul King controls the universal flow of souls"
    • As per the scan you provided with Yhwach this means that the Soul King stabilizes Soul Society and controls the universal flow. And again Ganryu states there are an infinite amount of souls.
  • "You are still wrong, Reio does not sustain the flow of souls, he sustains the worlds"
    • He does both, it's not one or the other, it's both. You've provided scans saying such.
  • "The Soul King sustaining the world's is only ever said to be the case when he is a lynchpin for the world, which would imply that his role as a lynchpin specifically is a special competent for doing it, not his power."
    • Here we find out that the whatever the Soul King is at the time uses spiritual power (Reiryoku) to stabilize whatever it stabilizes. This means that yes the Soul King does use his power to stabilize the Soul Society and Universal flow of souls. This correlates to the Reio for this reason, they mention that because Yhwach had the Reio's power he was able to stabilize the worlds. <- This is the precise evidence needed for stability using power, it's stated that spiritual power is used.
  • "The destruction of the worlds brought forth by the Soul Kings death isn’t instant or immediate in any way, shape or form. The best we see and get from the crumbling of the worlds is a dimensional quake trembling through the worlds, and not all of the worlds are even effected the same way."
    • I'll go into the size of SS and whatnot later to prove that overtime doesn't matter as destroying a 4D space in a finite time is still above destroying an infinite space instantly. However, the claim made by AKM was that stabilizing the entire cosmos isn't means for it, to that I say Aura says the Garganta is infinite thus, regardless of the time it's a High 3-A feat.
  • "With the Soul Kings passive feat being invalid and unquantifiable now, Yhwach absorbing him, Mimihagi and Ichigos power's to get a strength buff from them is logistically impossibleto give him power to be 3-A or Low 2-C, which puts into question his capability of destroying the worlds without a shadow of a doubt."
    • If I steelman and say the stability feat is invalid, it doesn't matter. Yhwach still scales off of this. It doesn't matter if you can't quantify the WSK, that by no means disqualifies the various statements. All it does is call into question if the WSK is unquantifiable.
  • "Ganju's not a credible source"
    • As a member of one of the Noble Houses that partook in the original formation and outcome that resulted from forming the Bleach universe, Ganju or any Shiba for that matter would be one of the MOST credible sources to comment on the collapse of the Bleach universe. You claim we shouldn't take his word because power-wise he is fodder... last I checked a character's power level did not determine their credibility. Ganju is giving exposition as well, as in it is what the author wants to convey.
  • "Ganju was not yet made awareof Yhwach's plans to return the Bleach cosmos back into the original universe."
    • Correct he just knew the Soul King's existence was put in danger. And being the Shiba clan member he is, filled with arguably more knowledge on the Soul King aside from the Tsunayashiro clan and Ichibe, still said the Garganta would be destroyed. Implying if anything that the Soul King is stabilizing everything as per the implications of Yhwach's statement. Yhwach also didn't want to revert the universe back, he wanted to destroy and merge everything to create a new universe.
  • "The Silver Arrow"
    • Jugram says Uryu's Antithesis may be the only thing capable of countering Yhwach. Ryuken tells us that Stil Silver is Quincy kryptonite. The notion of that arrow scaling to Uryu's AP is beyond disingenous. We are told that Uryu has the hax to counter Yhwach and then he pierces Yhwach with a special arrow that had the sole purpose of negging all of Yhwach's power. This isn't something that scales to Uryu's stats.
  • "Yhwach doesn't stabilize the worlds"
  • "there needs to be actual evidence that Yhwach was actually CAPABLE of doing the feat in the first place"
    • Multiple statements and the dimensional quakes. Plus the stability feat isn't invalid like you claim it is.
  • "Almighty is hax only"
Quantifying destroying the 3 realms (you can peep my google doc on the old thread for additional info)
  • We know from Askin that Yhwach was going to destroy Hueco Mundo, Soul Society, and World of the Living.
  • We know that the three realms aren't planets and to argue such is direct admission that the Dangai is a literal pipeline, like in Dakota lol. "If they could be likened" means they cannot be liked to planets as per the if.
  • Here from CFYOW II we see the theory of general relativity is canon to the Bleach universe. Meaning that is it hypothesizes, space and time are linked in a space-time. With my google doc from the og CRT we already had evidence that the Bleach realms were space-times, but this is new and further evidence for it. Also from CFYOW II, Giriko (having bounded with the god of time) claims that time is infinite, which going by general relativity would imply that the WotL (SS is parallel to WotL) is an infinite space-time. What Giriko is telling us is that the WotL is merely an exact replica of our irl universe (which most already assumed or knew). See here for more: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cu8ywQwSxvcd9228Mpruf3OPkRbLrn4lxSX0MLYRSkg/edit?usp=sharing
  • So we know that WotL and by extension SS are at least universal space-times (as the use of infinite qualifies for universal size as per vsbw standards). We also know (see the doc for scans) that the SS and WotL are separate space-times. Destroying two universal space-times separated by a separate space-time is the definition of 2-C.
  • Aura calls the Garganta infinite (check the doc) and Ganryu as I've shown above said there are infinite souls. Even if you want to say they aren't infinite for whatever reasons, the use of infinite is grounds for universal size by VSBW standards. Those infinite souls occupying space in the Garganta. So Garganta is called infinite in size and can contain infinite souls. Two infinite statements for Garganta, it's destruction regardless of the time frame is High 3-A. However, the Garganta is a confirmed space-time as well making its destruction a Low 2-C feat even ignoring all the realm stuff.
  • To conclude Yhwach destroying the current Bleach universe and making a new one would be a Low 2-C to 2-C feat.
Final Meta Dimensional Transcendence
Which do I think is best?
Personally, I believe there exists the largest preponderance of evidence for universal Bleach. Meteor scaling is based off one scan (the meteor), Memory of Nobodies scaling is based off of one feat (planets collide), Outer space scaling is based off one scan and some statements, Hell Verse scaling is based on a more composite scaling, 4D/5D scaling is based on one fight and some databook statements, but universal scaling is based practically on 3 whole novels, numerous statements, and the narrative of the final arc. Thus why I argue universal/low-multi Bleach.

I know Warren and Imade are preparing responses as well. Lmao it apparently took me 5 hours to respond oops.
So while I do agree with the Soul King being 3-A at his peak, I disagree with the evidence you're using to support that point. Chiefly the usage of soul stabilization.

Controlling souls is a hax, and we normally don't scale Hax, especially one so specific to the physical stats of a character. Also this is hell, the realm that the Soul King isn't said to do anything with. Also the idea of infinite souls directly contradicts that of the manga in that there should be no way for the quincy to be a threat that upsets the equilibrium of the three worlds of Soul Society, Hueco Mundo, and the World of the Living. You would always have infinite, and I don't think bleach has ever delved into different-sized infinities, so applying those standards seem out of place in this instance.

To further sit on the soul topic, it is not solely the Soul King that helps to stabilize the world, that is also partially the purpose of the soul reapers as seen with how one part of their job is sending souls to Soul Society and also with the instance of Mayuri expelling souls from Soul Society personally to help maintain this balance. If either the souls are out of balance or the soul king dies, Soul Society will collapse, meaning one without the other can't support Soul Society on its own. This is also partially corroborated by the Soul King's backstory, where he was throwing the order of the old world out of whack when he kept killing all the hollows that showed up.

To move onto your talk of the three realms not being planets, the image you post doesn't really seem to imply them being something more than planets. It's a metaphor that shouldn't be used as any real support for the sizes of anything due to how its very much unrelated to the size of these structures.

To move onto your point about infinite time:
Infinite time does not automatically equal infinite space. It just equals infinte time, while deeply tied to one another there are still distinct from one another so we shouldn't assume that one being a certain way automatically means the other is the same.

I will also require a bit more time to give my proposition for how I think this should all go, but I first wanted to cover some of the points in this earlier post.
 
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I also entirely endorse Warren's post, I saw it prior to it being posted, so due to him dipping, treat Warren's arguments as my own. I'll respond to any criticisms to his post as if it were my own.
 

Matthew_Schroeder

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Not in Bleach we don't know that.
Yes, we know. You cannot simultaneously argue time and again that "The World of the Living is our universe" and then claim that an infinite amount of people have died over a finite amount of time. An infinite amount of souls literally goes against the entire lore of Bleach and the necessity to balance the number of souls in either realm at all times. It is absurd.

I mentioned their purpose in the post.
So the purpose is just obfuscation and an attempt to present Universal Bleach as a "Middle ground", yes? As well as to make your post longer so that it will appear more robust than it is.

We are told he does it through spiritual power.
This literally doesn't matter if you're using your power or energy to perform a hax feat it will still be a hax feat. A mage using Soul Manipulation or Mind Manipulation or Illusions by spending his MP won't suddenly make those AP feats.
 

Zaratthustra

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So, can you put the math down here for that scaling that go up to 50k?

  • Scaling Chain: Meteor < ShiKen ~ Gerard ~ Byakuya ~ Tokinada ~ Grimmjow < Res Grimmjow (5-10x) ~ Hikone < Gentei Kaijo Released Hikone (5x) < Res Hikone (5-10x) < TS Ichigo < Almighty Yhwach < TS HoS Ichigo (5-10x) ~ SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach < TB HoS Ichigo (5-10x) < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post-Restoration TB/Inner Zangetsu Ichigo < Prime ReiO (he still scales to his creation feat).
  • Tiering: This sits the God Tiers anywhere from 3125-50000x greater than that meteor or Multi-Continental.
 
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So the purpose is just obfuscation and an attempt to present Universal Bleach as a "Middle ground", yes? As well as to make your post longer so that it will appear more robust than it is.
I mean I said I was going to do this prior to doing this... And if you read the post, I never present it as a middle ground, out of the metas I showed it's the second highest.

Yes, we know. You cannot simultaneously argue time and again that "The World of the Living is our universe" and then claim that an infinite amount of people have died over a finite amount of time. An infinite amount of souls literally goes against the entire lore of Bleach and the necessity to balance the number of souls in either realm at all times. It is absurd.
I can argue it's size is our universe but infinite souls exist. Also, I'd like to mention that I primarily use infinite to abide by the VSBW standards of infinite justifying universal. There are separate levels of infinity, not all infinities are equal, so mathematically you can balance infinity.

This literally doesn't matter if you're using your power or energy to perform a hax feat it will still be a hax feat. A mage using Soul Manipulation or Mind Manipulation or Illusions by spending his MP won't suddenly make those AP feats.
He is using spiritual power to stabilize the worlds... Spiritual powers that directly correlate to stats... he's not using MP or something he's using his literal power. Like it's a literal requirement for validating stability feats.
 
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Damage3245

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@Zaratthustra; he's stacking multipliers in the scaling chain. Using the high-end of the multipliers you get:

10 x 5 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 50000

But it is irrelevant. The topic of meteor scaling or Gremmy scaling should not even be touched until the main issue of this thread is resolved.
 

Matthew_Schroeder

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You all don’t seem to realize the nonsense that is a VS Battle Wiki CRT. When 5-15 guys are dogpiling you, it automatically a losing battle of attrition. A legitimate debate is only possible when there is a comparably equal amount of competent members arguing back and forth on a topic.

Otherwise, this just a fucking circlejerk.

Pray tell me, who are these 15 guys dogpilling the poor fans here? Where did you conjure them from? Because what we have here is a handful of dedicated staff members + a regular member who took the time to make a long, comprehensive thread explaining their issues with the upgrades point by point, and then in the opening post itself they directly notified the opposition allowing them to comment. There is no dogpilling, this is one of the most transparent Bleach Threads I have ever seen, where Staff is trying their best to keep it peaceful and respectful.

But this response is as immature as they can get, and its frankly stunning that this is the first thing you argue for when the only reason the upgrades went through in the first place was due to literal dogpilling on a major thread where no moderation was notified transparently ahead of time and people pushed the thread to a record number of posts in 24 hours all to get it approved as the small opposition was exhausted.

I don't care about the rest of your post but this is a major problem with Warren's argument. It starts out with a personal attack against all of the opposition as an attempt to demoralize them before actually arguing for points. And then it ends with ANOTHER personal attack where he insinuates that everyone who disagrees with Bleach is just too stupid to understand the source material and that the only way this discussion can happen is by allowing "Bleach Experts" into the thread, as if everyone who doesn't believe a certain way about a Shounen Anime is an ignorant fool who needs to be enlightened by the proper scholars and academics of Tite Kuboism.

To wrap this up, I heavily disagree with a lot of the claims being made here, I find a majority of them to be baseless and clearly indicative of a lack of proper understanding of the source material.

I highly disapprove, and I once again implore you to allow a handful of non-staff Bleach experts into this thread for discussion as they will provide the will, arguments, and scans that I do not possess.

Again, I don't care about the rest of your post and at least you had actual well-formulated arguments to defend your position, but what was the necessity with both opening and ending the post with direct attacks on the character and intentions of the people that are supporting the downgrade. If not to immediately poison the well and insinuate bad faith and malicious intent on their actions. This was uncalled for.
 
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Pray tell me, who are these 15 guys dogpilling the poor fans here? Where did you conjure them from? Because what we have here is a handful of dedicated staff members + a regular member who took the time to make a long, comprehensive thread explaining their issues with the upgrades point by point, and then in the opening post itself they directly notified the opposition allowing them to comment. There is no dogpilling, this is one of the most transparent Bleach Threads I have ever seen, where Staff is trying their best to keep it peaceful and respectful.

But this response is as immature as they can get, and its frankly stunning that this is the first thing you argue for when the only reason the upgrades went through in the first place was due to literal dogpilling on a major thread where no moderation was notified transparently ahead of time and people pushed the thread to a record number of posts in 24 hours all to get it approved as the small opposition was exhausted.

I don't care about the rest of your post but this is a major problem with Warren's argument. It starts out with a personal attack against all of the opposition as an attempt to demoralize them before actually arguing for points. And then it ends with ANOTHER personal attack where he insinuates that everyone who disagrees with Bleach is just too stupid to understand the source material and that the only way this discussion can happen is by allowing "Bleach Experts" into the thread, as if everyone who doesn't believe a certain way about a Shounen Anime is an ignorant fool who needs to be enlightened by the proper scholars and academics of Tite Kuboism.



Again, I don't care about the rest of your post and at least you had actual well-formulated arguments to defend your position, but what was the necessity with both opening and ending the post with direct attacks on the character and intentions of the people that are supporting the downgrade. If not to immediately poison the well and insinuate bad faith and malicious intent on their actions. This was uncalled for.
When Warren made this it was prior to you guys giving me Imade so that's where the hostility in the top comes from lol. If you don't care about his post can I take it as a concession to the post via refusal to comment on it?
 
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Guys, once again, lets stop. Arc and Warren already gave their counter arguments to this.

Now it is the oppositions turn to be given time to formulate a response, and that cant happen if theres a spam of comments arguing little points here.
 
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All of his points are being addressed to, but you cannot expect constructive criticism and meaningful discussion if people keep posting all the time demanding an answer as soon as possible.
I'm not demanding immediate reponse, I'm just asking if you are ignoring Warren's post entirely or if you plan on responding that's all. You made it out like you were disregarding his post.
 
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Damage already told Sigurd to give any responses he has to Arc or the others. We have enough knowledgeable members here to give counter arguments.
 
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You mean a thread that already has like 5-6 people already to go against the downgrades?

Yes. Because he's not needed.
Yes, a knowledgeable member is not needed on a massive revision on the verse he knows about best than some, kinda gives a bad look saying that a knowledgeable memeber of the verse is not allowed to talk

But since sigurd is fine not commenting I will leave it at that
 

Damage3245

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@00potato; if you post here again I'm going to have to recommend you be temporarily banned for a short period of time. You've had enough warnings.
 
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Dont nitpick and argue semantics guys. He still supports the verse ending up as tier 3 on some level. The downgrade is opposed to anything tier 3 or 2. At the worst, you lose another person and you'd still have more people to go against the opposition.

And Sigurd said hes fine with not commenting here anyways. Get his points and post them here in your counter arguments.
 
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Im not repeating myself again. Either way, you have more to argue here for the upgrade than the people against it do. And you can just add whatever points he has in your arguments here.

Enough with the nitpicking and leave it at that.
 

DemonGodMitchAubin

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@Arc7Kuroi

We don't need more people on both sides, not that many people are actually debating in favor of the downgrades, it's a few people, everyone else will just be giving their opinions based on what's being said, I for one have no intention to actually debate, I will only give my opinion when both sides have given plenty of arguments and had a good back and forth, then I will look over everything and give my opinion on which side I agree with
 

Eficiente

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I agree with the downgrades and congratulate the work done here. The stabilization feats page should also point out how if one of those feats is established to be done "via non AP based means a character has going for" while simultaneously being established to be done "via things like power a character has going for", then it might be that the latter needs to be recontextualized due to the former, making both ideas make sense as it's still the character's "power" that does that, just not related to how hard they can hit others to the face.
 
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I dont think I have said my side And since I dont think I said it before I will say it now:

Disagree with the downgrade made by faulty logic and old debunked arguments
 
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