Bleach Downgrades (Staff Only)

[Arc7Kuroi]

What else needs to be said though?

Because you're still arguing Reio is stabilizing the flow of souls lol. Which is provably a lie.

Edit: IMade said he can respond in the near later.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You dont get to dictate what is a "lie" because you don't agree with that interpretation. That isnt how this works.

And even without the flow of souls argument, there is still plenty of arguments repeated over and over again on why Reio's stability feat is invalid, flow of souls or not. Debunking the flow of souls isnt a new argument here.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; if you're so sure of it, then let staff members come to a decision about what has been said so far.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You dont get to dictate what is a "lie" because you don't agree with that interpretation. That isnt how this works.

No Kukui that's not how this works.

When we are told that Tokinada's dad lied about Reio, we can no longer assume anything his dad said about Reio is truth. We must now assume it is a lie.

I'm not dictating shit, I'm telling you what is written in the ******* novel.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay, but what does that have to do with the Quincy's threatening the soul cycle? In any way? Because my counters kinda called this out.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I'm not dictating shit, I'm telling you what is written in the ******* novel.

Okay and? Let staff read everything from both sides and come to their own conclusions on whos right and wrong.

You cant say somethings a lie because you dont agree with it. You gave reasons for why you think its a lie, and I gave counters for why that doesnt matter. And now this has ended up as a circular repetion of points. Both sides have to give final counters at some point in order for staff input to be given, and we are now at that point.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Well after reading IMade’s argument, I still feel the same about it, Yhwach’s Base Stats, Ichigo, and Aizen shouldn’t scale to 3-A, Low 2-C, or 2-C for the same reasons I mentioned before, that’s my opinion, I feel that Prime Soul King and Post-Power Absorption Yhwach still get “3-A, Low 2-C, or 2-C with the Almighty” however

Also lets call all the staff we can to take a look at and decide for themselves which side is best, once again, great work to everyone who participated here and regardless of what side wins, try to not get too angry, I know no matter what I say and who wins, people will still complain but hey, that’s been Bleach scaling on this site for forever

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Okay, but what does that have to do with the Quincy's threatening the soul cycle? In any way? Because my counters kinda called this out.

Good question, but first let me ask you a question before I go into detail. What does threatening the Soul Cycle have to do with Reio's stability feat if Reio doesn't control the Soul Cycle? The answer is it doesn't, but I'll explain anyhow.

We know that there are three ways to destroy the the Bleach universe: unbalance the Soul Cycle or kill Reio or gain the power to destroy it yourself (through absorbing Reio in the context of the story).

Unbalancing the Soul Cycle and stopping Reio from stabilizing the universe have nothing to do with each other, no connection. We know this because Shinigami were once referred to as the Balancers. It was their job to keep the balance of souls in check, we see this with Mayuri slaughtering citizens to correct the balance, and such is the reason Shinigami had to kill the Quincies, the Quincies threaten the balance of souls. Being that they can do this even when Reio is stabilizing Soul Society, it reckons that Reio has no dominion over the actual balance of souls. Which this is confirmed in CFYOW when Tokinada discovers that his dad was lying to him and that in the grander scale the Tsunayashiro branch had been fabricating truths since the dawn of Soul Society. One of the things Tokinada's dad says his Reio controls the universal flow of souls; however, because we are told his dad lied that now calls into question anything his dad and removes any form of credibility regarding Reio that Tokinada's dad has. If Reio controlled the flow of souls then he would have been able to correct the balance himself; however, that is not the case.

The Shinigami are the balancers of the Soul Cycle, while Reio is the stabilizer of the realms, they perform different tasks and are unrelated. The only link between them is that both have the potential to destroy the universe, one through an imbalance of souls, the other through their reiryoku (or raw statistics).

You cant say somethings a lie because dont agree with it.

I say it's a lie because CFYOW tells us it's a lie, not because I don't agree. Read the novels.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I read through IMade's post and Kukui's posts and I also still feel the same. Yhwach, Ichigo and Aizen shouldn't scale to the collapse of the worlds or whatever. I think the AKM Opening Post is still the best refutation of this, but Kukui's replies along the thread help back it up.

I'm indifferent to how people ultimately decide to scale the Almighty but acting like it scales to physical stats and the people that fight them is blatantly wrong at this point.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I'm indifferent to how people ultimately decide to scale the Almighty but acting like it scales to physical stats and the people that fight them is blatantly wrong at this point.

This is what's blatantly wrong.

Hikone and Ichigo were going to be made into Soul Kings, yet they possess no Almighty, they only possess raw power. We are told Reio stabilizes through raw power that provably scales to his statistics. The Almighty has nothing to do with this. Aizen was going to become the Soul King, he possesses no Almighty, Tokinada says Ginjo can become Soul King, he has no Almighty.

Stop bringing up the Almighty, it is not some world stabilizing hax.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Good question, but first let me ask you a question before I go into detail. What does threatening the Soul Cycle have to do with Reio's stability feat if Reio doesn't control the Soul Cycle? The answer is it doesn't, but I'll explain anyhow.

Because him controlling the soul cyle or not literally has nothing to do with that inconsistency? Let me put it like this so you'll understand the actual point.

A building is sustained by the pillars / beams that hold it up, right? When you remove those beams, the building no longer has support for it and falls apart. However, if I use my power to sustain a building from falling apart, then simply removing the beams that once held it up are not going to cause it to fall over again. Why? Because of my power sustaining it.

This is the same thing here. The Quincies were regarded as a threat to the Cosmology, despite the soul kings existence supposedly sustaining the cosmology. How can the cosmology fall apart from what happens inside of it? The quincies would never able to cause the destruction of the worlds in the first place because the worlds are supposed to be sustained directly by the Soul King. But that isn't the case. If he sustains the worlds, the Quincies cant cause their destruction.

This is what the point is saying.

We know that there are three ways to destroy the the Bleach universe: unbalance the Soul Cycle or kill Reio or gain the power to destroy it yourself (through absorbing Reio in the context of the story).

Unbalancing the Soul Cycle and stopping Reio from stabilizing the universe have nothing to do with each other, no connection. We know this because Shinigami were once referred to as the Balancers. It was their job to keep the balance of souls in check, we see this with Mayuri slaughtering citizens to correct the balance, and such is the reason Shinigami had to kill the Quincies, the Quincies threaten the balance of souls. Being that they can do this even when Reio is stabilizing Soul Society, it reckons that Reio has no dominion over the actual balance of souls. Which this is confirmed in CFYOW when Tokinada discovers that his dad was lying to him and that in the grander scale the Tsunayashiro branch had been fabricating truths since the dawn of Soul Society. One of the things Tokinada's dad says his Reio controls the universal flow of souls; however, because we are told his dad lied that now calls into question anything his dad and removes any form of credibility regarding Reio that Tokinada's dad has. If Reio controlled the flow of souls then he would have been able to correct the balance himself; however, that is not the case.

See above. The Soul King stablizing the flow of souls, or not stablizing the flow of souls, has nothing to do with why the Quincies are an inconsistency.

If he sustains the worlds, then the Quincies cant destroy them, because theyre supposed to be sustained.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

If he sustains the worlds, then the Quincies cant destroy them, because theyre supposed to be sustained.

Did you not read my post? The universe can be destroyed through the SK or the imbalance of souls. The realms naturally want to collapse with or without the flow of souls, Reio stabilizes that natural collapse, if you add more pressure beyond that natural want for collapse (aka imbalance of souls) it destroys everything.

For the universe to stay safe it needs Reio to stabilize it and then it needs the souls to stay balanced, two separate things.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Tyri requested I post what they sent me:

READ ALL

Okay, I have read everything since the start of this, and I want to give my opinion on the matter.

By reading what the OP wrote and by reading what the staff currently think about the ratings, I think there is an huge misunderstanding regarding Yhwach, the stabilization feat was just a support feat accepted, so staffs thinking it is unquantificable or discarding it, is understandable, as well as not enough for the rating to gone, because that would mean not paying attention to Yhwach feat was accepted too in that thread, one of the main reason Yhwach has that rating is because, during his final fight, he was spreading his spiritual pressure and starting destroying everthing in the enviroment.

(Something unrelated to my argument, but regarding the universal quake, I want to add that, despite accepting it being unquantificable, it does not mean it does not exist neither it can't be used, the threat was an upcoming threat, and mimihagi was needed in the immediate short-term to stop everything, not understand this, means reject what the mangaka literally write and his potrayal of the plot, everything would have been gone, so it would eventually end up being Universal stuff not just a quake, but I will digress)

You can clearly see Yhwach reiastu starting destroying the enviroment itself, so something you have to acknowledge is that a physical destruction was about to happen so there is no soul flow involed, and, as Yhwach said, he was using his own power to bust and recreate everything, why specifically say "faced against my power? Why we clealry ignore a blast of black spiritual pressure (that was also part of his OWN body) destroyng the groud and spreding everywhere? is completely different to the universal shake. since again, Yhwach said "By my Own Power" and there is no indication of Almighty being involved at all.

There are also VISUAL differences from the universal shake that was happening, and there is also no correlation at all, since Yhwach himself never stated anything to the matter.

And are clearly two different thing, there is no hax being involved, if it was an hax, why showing spiritual pressure spreading and destroying physically everything like an enourmous blast of energy? It does not make sense at all, just look at the scan and judge by yourself.
Pay attention, that even the novel confirm His Reiryoku was at the base of his power, Which is spiritual pressure that shinigami use to fight, literally raw power, that would also support the stabilization feat( that I'm not using), and further more support what the visual suggest about Yhwach busting everything.

So I think, we have to acknowledge the fact that Yhwach was busting the universe, or at least there is possibility of Yhwach being that strong even if you really really think he does not scale for some reasons, But I genuinely do not agree.
Jugram's phrase, Yhwach visual, the novel, all suggest it is raw power, the disbelief is what keep you not acknowledging this, because all the counter arguments are based on the fact those phrases need to be debunked even do, at the end, they all support each other, there is not a single time it is stated to be an hax, it is something used an excuse here.

I understand the fact that it could be weird since they always sit at planet, but I also think too much nitpicking is made to Bleach's case, and what's the face value, occam razor, and the mangaka write is completely ignored despite the plot itself of the manga support a final treat of that tier, like Yhwach, its not a random pocket dimension feat or single statements.
If I have to look at other profiles especially from game charachters we give universal rating against final bosses that are going to blow up everything despite previously they seems to not be that *strong at all, and I can give other examples to case similar to this. I never seen a verse being so much nitpicked.

example: eyeball feat, "X Divided by Y is still X", so if it was 3A instead of low2c was fine because you can divide it? the feat is not even portrayed to be an anti-feat, be serious, abusing of tiering sytem like that, when was just an excess of power and a blantat display of quantity over quality for eyeball minions. It is not an anti-feat whatsoever.

I also say that, because the majority of the arguments are basically "It cant be" and it just seems that you are trying to get from every scan every possible anti-feat by thinking on paradoxical examples to debunk it, by not thinking it can be true, but starting with the preconception that it must be false, with those kind of logic I can potentially downgrade tons of verses, because almost all the argument used are appealing to disbelief and anti-feats that does not exist in a pratical way neither are portrayed to be anti-feat in first place, but are all made up to defend your argument.

There is no substatial proof against Yhwach feat, because it is shown and stated to be by RAW power. Since there are no proof of it being Hax, the only argument used for Hax is the disbelief of them not being that strong. Nothing with a substance is posted to counter it, please read again all the post, the counters to Yhwach feats does not exist and are all about the stabilization, the counter to Yhwach feat of universe busting is just appealing to no-existent anti-feats, or disbelief (which is basically saying, no, Tite Kubo, you are a liar, yhwach was not doing that at all)

Yhwach was "trolling"

Thats general but, Are we really using as an argument the fact that it does not happened or that feats>statements? what do you guys thinks would have happened if Ichigo didnt stopped him? What Yhwach said is the result of Kubo displaying him as a threat of everything in the cosmos; Bleach narrative is not even that easy to understand that is why thread like that exists and I understand, it is normal, and for sure Kubo doesnt really give a **** (sorry) if there is "10 tier difference" from a normal shinigami and a trascendental being that can change the cosmos.

lets ignore that Yhwach himself confirms that he was literally serious and was going to do what he was going to do after his defeat. Let's ignore that the novel speaking about Soul King and how he created everything before there was even something to stabilize, lowkey support the entire lore of the manga to have godlike beings that can **** up the cosmos, and Yhwach is said to be linked to the prime soul king as his own "child", lets ignore the entire plot of the manga and Yhwach being completely a treat for everything. Let's ignore the fact that in bleach transcendental beings are COMPARED as higher dimensional being in terms of difference in power from the normal shinigami, that they cant even comprehend the energy output they can use.

Conclusions and my opinions for the tiering based on current situation:

tiering for Yhwach final key: At least 5B, possibly 3A to low 2c

scaling: Ichigo True Bankai, Aizen (basically the only ones that fought that Yhwach)

Since stabilizations is "ambigous" (pointing out still can be used as support FRA) everything under them would not scale as scaled previously; Tiering for WSK, mimihagi and minor god tier: Unknown

Rest of the highs tier: at least High 6A/possibly higer and so on

Thanks for reading, I will apologize in advance if I was rude on some stuffs, I did not write it at the same time, but also while I was reading the arguments for the downgrade.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I did read it and im failing to underatand why this is so difficult to be grasped.

Did you not read my post? The universe can be destroyed through the SK or the imbalance of souls.

Yes, but here's what you are not understanding here.

If the Quincies destroy the universe via the imabalance of souls, why wouldnt Reio stop that by directly sustaining the worlds?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

If the Quincies destroy the universe via the imabalance of souls, why wouldnt Reio stop that by directly sustaining the worlds?

Because the worlds are trying to collapse regardless of the Soul Cycle, the natural course of the universe is to collapse (we see this when Reio dies despite Soul Cycle being fine). So this means Reio cannot stabilize the universe from its natural destruction and the imbalance of souls.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Think of the Bleach universe as broken glass of water where the contents are the water.

Reio keeps the glass from falling apart by holding the shattered pieces of water. If he doesn't hold the glass of water it'll fall apart and spill.

Think of imbalancing the Soul Cycle as heating up the glass so the water evaporates. Regardless of how well Reio keeps the glass from breaking he can't prevent the evaporation.

I hope this helps lol.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I think tsu explains it well

"Kukui seems to be under the assumption that "Sustatning a realm's existence = said realm is completely indestructible as long as you're sustaining it"

All the Soul King does is mantaining the realms's existences from naturally collpasing, he does not actively prevent them from being destroyed by an outside factor (in this case the Soul Cycle). And again, the Soul Cycle being out of balance only is ever stated as affecting the Living World and SS, the other realms the SK mantains are never stated to be threatened by it, so it is not really "affecting the whole cosmology".

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So that means your literally saying that the Soul Kings sustanance doesnt scale to the worlds destruction if it cant stop the realms from being destroyed by other factors.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I only get to comment once before decisions are made? Sounds fair.

I'll respond to Kukui as they ignored scans.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You mean dragging this thread out again because you initially weren't going to respond for another week or so until Arc made that confirmation.

Anyway, go ahead. I will prepare counters against that as well, as I dont recall ignoring anything that I didnt say I would.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

So that means your literally saying that the Soul Kings sustanance doesnt scale to the worlds destruction if it cant stop the realms from being destroyed by other factors.

No let me explain the slight scale difference. Also, if I can stop 10^92 joules (joules to destroy universe) and someone adds more joules that exceeds my limit then it reckons everything would collapse. So think of the Soul Cycle as extra stress Reio cannot handle on top of the stress of stabilizing everything.

Within Memories of Nobody it's stated that souls that escape from the Soul Cycle end up in Garganta where they form Kyogoku. Meaning that the Soul Cycle doesn't occur within Garganta and doesn't have any affect on Garganta.

However, Garganta was going to be destroyed as a consequence of Reio no longer stabilizing. So Reio's stability affects Garganta, Dangai, and realms, where as Soul Cycle just affects the realms.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No let me explain the slight scale difference. Also, if I can stop 10^92 joules (joules to destroy universe) and someone adds more joules that exceeds my limit then it reckons everything would collapse. So think of the Soul Cycle as extra stress Reio cannot handle on top of the stress of stabilizing everything.

That has to go under the assumption that the stress caused by the Quincies de-balancing the soul cycle is > the potency of the Weakened Soul King's sustanence, which nothing proves this.

Within Memories of Nobody it's stated that souls that escape from the Soul Cycle end up in Garganta where they form Kyogoku. Meaning that the Soul Cycle doesn't occur within Garganta and doesn't have any affect on Garganta.

However, Garganta was going to be destroyed as a consequence of Reio no longer stabilizing. So Reio's stability affects Garganta, Dangai, and realms, where as Soul Cycle just affects the realms.

You do realize this helps my point even more than it does yours, right?

The soul cycle only effecting the world of the living and the soul society when de-balanced would mean even more that the potency of the Weakened Soul King, which is supposed to sustain the realms and more, would easily stop the destruction of only 2 worlds.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Responce from Tsu

No, it means the Soul King scales to the natural collpase of the realms that he is passively preventing to happen and not to something completely unrelated to said natural collpase. Without the Soul King all realms would collpase and cease to be for the simple reason he is not sustaining their existences anymore, while with the Soul Cycle out of Balance only the SS and Living World would start to merge back together and then collpase.

Soul King prevents the natural collpase of the realms and mantains their existences, the Soul Cycle is an outisde factor that has no relation to said natural collpase.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That has to go under the assumption that the stress caused by the Quincies de-balancing the soul cycle is > the potency of the Weakened Soul King's sustanence, which nothing proves this.

No no no, this means Reio cannot prevent natural collapse plus imbalance of souls, not that imbalance > natural collapse.

You do realize this helps my point even more than it does yours, right?

The soul cycle only effecting the world of the living and the soul society when de-balanced would mean even more that the potency of the Weakened Soul King, which is supposed to sustain the realms and more, would easily stop the destruction of only 2 worlds.

See my above response. But it basically comes down to this: Reio can prevent collapse of Garganta + Dangai + Three Realms, adding the imbalance of souls would be like adding another two realms worth of destruction on top of things.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Responce from Tsu

No, it means the Soul King scales to the natural collpase of the realms that he is passively preventing to happen and not to something completely unrelated to said natural collpase. Without the Soul King all realms would collpase and cease to be for the simple reason he is not sustaining their existences anymore, while with the Soul Cycle out of Balance only the SS and Living World would start to merge back together and then collpase.

I said this to Arc above. The soul cycle effects less than what the sustenance of the Soul King is supposed to be effecting, that makes it completely and impossible for it to cause destruction above what the Soul King keeps in check.

Keeping the entie cosmology in check means his sustanence can stop only 2 worlds out of the whole cosmology from being destroyed.

Soul King prevents the natural collpase of the realms and mantains their existences, the Soul Cycle is an outisde factor that has no relation to said natural collpase.

This is admitting that his sustanance cant stop destruction on that level then.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I said this to Arc above. The soul cycle effects less than what the sustenance of the Soul King is supposed to be effecting, that makes it completely and impossible for it to cause destruction above what the Soul King keeps in check.

Keeping the entie cosmology in check means his sustanence can stop only 2 worlds out of the whole cosmology from being destroyed.

This is admitting that his sustanance cant stop destruction on that level then.

No.

The imbalance of souls would mean Reio has to prevent natural collapse + imbalance collapse, wherein he normally only has to prevent the natural collapse. It's additive.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No no no, this means Reio cannot prevent natural collapse plus imbalance of souls, not that imbalance > natural collapse.

Yes, which can only survive off the assumption that destablizing the soul cycle is stronger than the natural collapse of the worlds. Nothing proves this is the case.

See my above response. But it basically comes down to this: Reio can prevent collapse of Garganta + Dangai + Three Realms, adding the imbalance of souls would be like adding another two realms worth of destruction on top of things.

Thats the other way around. The imbalance isnt adding anything, its only effecting less than the entirety of what the sustanance is supposed to be dealing with.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yes, which can only survive off the assumption that destablizing the soul cycle is stronger than the natural collapse of the worlds. Nothing proves this is the case.

Thats the other way around. The imbalance isnt adding anything, its only effecting less than the entirety of what the sustanance is supposed to be dealing with.

No because the worlds want to naturally destroy themselves. So there's a entropy force, Reio is currently holding back this entropy force, the imbalance of souls is an additional force. If Reio = entropy force, then even if imbalance force is tiny, imbalance force + entropy force > Reio.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Akuto says this to help you better understand Kukui:

Let's say I am lifting a 500 kg barbell in my hand and it is not difficult to do this. Then someone comes in and presses the barbell and tries to drop it. Does that mean I can't lift the 500 kg barbell?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

The issue with the feat is that collapse isn't immediate, the immediate or even minutes at a time output of the collapse feat is a light earthquake and some buildings being destroyed, for all we know, the feat could have taken a few hours before everything was destroyed, it is by no means 3-A, Low 2-C, or 2-C, that's the huge issue with the rating

And the world reshaping feat is not the same as the stabilization feat, I'm not saying the world reshaping feat isn't at that level, I'm saying that the feat itself should not scale to Yhwach's regular stats at all, since even if he used Reiatsu for the feat, he was also using the Almighty, which is stated to be the power that does the world reshaping feat for the Soul King, and I still don't believe the Almighty amps someone's power, you need to have a certain level of power to use the Almighty, Yhwach needs to be just as strong as he was right before opening his eyes to use the Almighty, and since he didn't get an amp of power, that means Ichibei, Yamamoto, and Fullbring Bankai Ichigo are able to damage Almighty Yhwach, who you claim is above the Soul King, that creates a massive issue with the current rating as well

It also doesn't help that it is purely statements based on the interpretations of the viewer, and when something that is as uncertain as this is open to interpretation, the more logical thing to do is go with the lower end of the interpretation, we do that for quite literally everything on this site, something that is as open to interpretation of this feat is not solid enough to fully scale to all the God Tiers Base Stats

Once again, I feel that at this point both sides are going back and forth on the same points and we need to gather staff to finally take a look and give their opinion on which side they believe is the correct side

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

light earthquake

Is magnitude >9.5 light?

The issue with the feat is that collapse isn't immediate,

Destroying a universe over the span of 1 million years is still multi-galaxy.

I still don't believe the Almighty amps someone's power

It doesn't matter what you believe, Jugram confirms it does, and the second Yhwach uses it he overpowers Ichibe.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Akuto says this to help you better understand Kukui:

Let's say I am lifting a 500 kg barbell in my hand and it is not difficult to do this. Then someone comes in and presses the barbell and tries to drop it. Does that mean I can't lift the 500 kg barbell?

This is not a good comparison to make this because you keep going under the assumption that anything is being added in the first place.

What proves anything is getting added? The de-balance in the cycle happens by making 1 of both worlds have a larger number of souls than the other, which is only great enough to collapse those 2 worlds. The Soul King is supposed to be sustaining everything. That amount of potency would be > whatever amount of potency is unleashed on the 2 worlds.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Is magnitude >9.5 light?

For worlds getting destroyed very slowly? Yes.

Destroying a universe over the span of 1 million years is still multi-galaxy.

Not in this case, because its just unknwon 4-D levels of energy. Not quantifiable. Not given a tier.

It doesn't matter what you believe, Jugram confirms it does, and the second Yhwach uses it he overpowers Ichibe.

And this statement was debunked at length.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

This is not a good comparison to make this because you keep going under the assumption that anything is being added in the first place.

You know how I know it's being added because Reio is perpetually keeping the universe from collapsing. So rn Reio is maintaining universal destruction, imbalance of souls is additional lol. The natural collapse doesn't pause and stop so imbalance can take over.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

And this statement was debunked at length.

Not at all Jugram says Yhwach has been fighting with his eyes closed and that eyes closed Yhwach < eyes open Yhwach. The fight itself demonstrates a clear stat amp.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You know how I know it's being added because Reio is perpetually keeping the universe from collapsing.

Reio perpetually keeping "the universe" from collapsing means he's sustaining 5-6 different worlds in the cosmology.

The balance of souls effects only 2 of those 5-6 worlds.

So rn Reio is maintaining universal destruction, imbalance of souls is additional lol. The natural collapse doesn't pause and stop so imbalance can take over.

Imabalance of souls is only great enough to destroy 2 worlds in the cosmology. Reio, supposedly, sustains everything that goes from 5-6 worlds at least.

Potency put in 5-6 worlds > potency effecting 2.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Not at all Jugram says Yhwach has been fighting with his eyes closed and that eyes closed Yhwach < eyes open Yhwach. The fight itself demonstrates a clear stat amp.

Show the evidence for this please, because this was not presented in your counters. You only brought Jugrams statement, which was what my counters were aimed at.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Is magnitude >9.5 light?


Destroying a universe over the span of 1 million years is still multi-galaxy.


It doesn't matter what you believe, Jugram confirms it does, and the second Yhwach uses it he overpowers Ichibe.

1. That's fair I guess, but it was 9.5 Magnitude for only the Soul Society, world of the living was a light magnitude, that means that the immediate output wasn't even 9.5 magnitude for everywhere, and since we don't see the full range, the earthquake may have only initially effected the planets, making that feat be even less impressive

2. Multi-Galaxy ain't Universal, that's the point, this debate is about whether 3-A, Low 2-C, or 2-C is still valid, whether the quake is 3-B don't matter right now

3. That's not what that statement means to me, Jugram says you have to be strong enough to use the Almighty, not that the Almighty itself amps power

Once again, this is now becoming a circle jerk between Arc and Kukui, I believe we have said everything possible here, so let's call staff and get this settled, It is being extremely hard to respond to this thread while you guys shotgun each other

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The balance of souls effects only 2 of those 5-6 worlds.

Yes exactly it adds more stress to specifically those 2 (maybe Hm too). Reio can't pull from the other worlds.

So Reio has a set pull for each world that sums to the total, but he can't subtract from his other worlds or they'd be destroyed. So when additional stress is added he can't do anything.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

but it was 9.5 Magnitude for only the Soul Society

No it was recorded >9.5 on Earth iirc, it'd logically be higher at the Reio epicenter.

Multi-Galaxy ain't Universal, that's the point, this debate is about whether 3-A, Low 2-C, or 2-C is still valid, whether the quake is 3-B don't matter right now

It's a supporting feat that backs up Yhwach being able to destroy the universe tho. Idc where we end up putting WSK, my point is it still supports 3-A Yhwach.