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Refer to the title. As it was mentioned earlier, this thread will be tackling into the recent 3-A / Low 2-C upgrades that Bleach received here not too long ago. After taking a deeper look into things for myself, and receiving some help from others, I'm here to explain why I'm disagreeing with these upgrades and why Bleach should be downgraded back.
And yes, this will be done as a staff thread. The upgrade thread went on for 12 pages, barely over 24 hours, with minimal amount of staff members to take a look into it themselves. Since the upgrades were massive and highly controversial for one of the most popular verses that effects the credibility of the wiki, it required a large amount of staff approval before getting accepted, something that didn't happen. Due to the nature of these threads that attract a lot of comments that turn them chaotic and unmanageable, this will be done here in the staff forum to keep the thread under control. Obviously, @Arc7Kuroi will be allowed to post in the thread to provide responses to things he disagrees with to keep this fair since he brought these upgrades here in the first place. Same goes for @ProfessorKukui4Life who argued on that thread.
Now let's begin.
When looking into this, there's evidence suggesting that the Soul King stabilizing the Bleach Cosmology is being taken out of context and doesn't scale to either 3-A or Low 2-C at all (the latter I'll be getting to later).
Yes, I've been made aware of this from a previous upgrade thread, made here, that got the Soul King to 4-A. It uses this statement from Yhwach:
That upgrade thread used this scan to prove Reio stabilizes the soul society and the other worlds itself based on Yhwach saying so here, which opened the doors to the upgrades accepted now. However, I argue that this is just being taken out of context. Because Yhwach also specifies in this comment that "massive numbers of Konpaku pass through" the soul society that Reio stabilizes. Why would the flow of souls be mentioned if it wasn't at all a factor in keeping the soul society in check? The first part of the statement is being taken to say Reio stabilizes the soul society directly, but its ignoring the flow of souls also being specified, which offers another way of interpreting the statement. The fact that Yhwach specifies "massive amounts of Konpaku pass through" indicates that Reio is linked to the flow of souls, which in turn, could mean he keeps the soul society stabilized by stabilizing the flow of souls. And this interpretation is supported by 2 strong evidences.
https://cdn.***************.com/file/AnimeRleases/bleachnovel_1.2_6_11.jpg
The Soul King is never said to stabilize the worlds here. Instead, its outright said that the Soul King controls the universal flow of souls as the world's lynchpin, giving more support to the interpretation that he doesn't stabilize the actual worlds, but the flow of souls, which sustain the worlds. Then we get to this next part:
Quincies and Shinigami differed from each other in how they disposed of hollows. Shinigami are considered balancers who cleanse hollows and send them to the Soul Society, while Quincies eradicate them completely. As a result, the Quincies removed those souls from the soul cycle of sending souls between the Soul Society and Living World. By doing that, they would unbalance the amount of souls between the two worlds, which as explained, would cause the collapse of the universe as a result. Being a threat to the worlds in this manner was the reason why Shinigami actively sought to prevent Quincies from disrupting the balance in the first place, even going as far as to kill majority of them.
The Soul King stabilizing the entire Cosmology conflicts with this. The Quincies are, narratively and consistently, treated as threats to the Bleach cosmology in-universe. Why would the Quincies be regarded as such a threat to the worlds if the Soul King directly stabilizes these said worlds? No matter what the Quincies would do to the soul cycle, Reio stabilizing the worlds would prevent them from getting collapsed. Even more so, Shinigami's would not have been required to dispose of Quincies if the Soul King sustaining the worlds was actually the case. The only way this doesn't conflict with this plot-point is if the Soul King only sustains the flow of souls.
There's more reasons as to why the Soul King's stability feat is invalid.
This will be elaborated on later, but what also helps suggest this point is Yhwach. He had the Soul King absorbed, and despite dying twice to Ichigo, the worlds in the Bleach cosmology were not at all getting destroyed. Yhwach sustaining the worlds is only ever made the case when he becomes the new lynchpin to replace Reio.
Shown here, Ichigo slices apart the Soul King, which starts the crumbling of the worlds the very moment Reio is killed:
To counteract the crumbling of the worlds, Ukitake unleashes from inside of him Mimihagi, the right arm of the Soul King who he has now become:
By unleashing Mimihagi, Ukitake stops the crumbling of the worlds:
Mimhagi does this by physically latching itself onto Reio's sliced-apart corpse, replacing him as the Soul King to keep the worlds stabilized. However, this is outright said to only last as long as Ukitake's life lasts:
Mimihagi was able to become a temporary soul king by physically latching itself onto Reio's corpse, stopping the crumbling of the worlds, and it’s outright said that the stabilization of the worlds would only last as long as Ukitake’s lifespan does since Ukitake and Mimihagi became the same entity. This implies that stabilizing the worlds with life force is another possibility to consider here for this. Even moreso, Mimihagi is the right arm of the Soul King, so by physically attaching itself to the one it was once apart of, it temporarily becoming a lynchpin makes sense, even if not done with the soul kings life force.
Requirement 2: Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.
On top of that, this still wouldn't change anything about this downgrade. Even if everything presented so far is irrelevant, and Reio does stabilize the worlds with actual power, it still isn’t quantifiable to keep this upgrade.
The destruction of the worlds brought forth by the Soul Kings death isn’t instant or immediate in any way, shape or form. The best we see and get from the crumbling of the worlds is a dimensional quake trembling through the worlds, and not all of the worlds are even effected the same way. The Soul society violently shakes, Hueco Mundo shakes to a lesser extent, and the world of the living gets a mild long lasting quake where nothing gets destroyed at all.
Counter-argument: "Multiple characters make a point of saying without the Soul King the entire bleach universe would cease to be."
I keep seeing this get passed around, so I'm addressing it here. We seem to be at the point where claims of "the universe will cease to exist!" or anything similar as an end result of what happens is automatically enough to keep 3-A or Low 2-C ratings on the table. It isn't.
We know that "the universe would cease to be" is a thing as the end result of the Soul King no longer being alive to keep that from happening. But that being the conclusion doesn't at all matter here when looking at just how the destruction unfolds. The result of what happens in the end is completely irrelevant against the fact that the destruction itself isn't instant or immediate destruction. The destruction starts instantly / immediately, but it doesn't happen instantly / immediately, as you can see above. The destruction spans over an extensively long timeframe, to the point where nothing dimensionally even begins to deteriorate. And as mentioned, the destruction isn't even treated the same across all of the effected worlds.
The destruction happening here isn't 3-A destruction, let alone Low 2-C levels of it. So the Soul King wouldn't need output on either levels to stop the worlds from crumbling, even if he stabilizes the cosmology with power and not an alternate method. Now to get to the 2nd issue with this upgrade.
This comment from Ganju is the only direct statement we get here about the Garganta being effected with everything else. There's 2 issues with this claim of Yhwach destroying the Garganta, as I mentioned in the beginning of this thread. And they both involve Ganju's statement here.
And that's not the worst of this issue.
Go to these four chapters yourself for more clarification. When he made this comment about the Garganta's destruction, Ganju was not yet made aware of Yhwach's plans to return the Bleach cosmos back into the original universe. He was speaking about the Soul King's death being the cause of that since he came to the Soul King's palace with Ichigo to stop Yhwach from killing him in the first place. And throughout the span of the 4 chapters I linked, he is involved in Yoruichi's ambush to use the Garganta and sneak their way back into Reio's position in the palace, which again, refers back to their plan of stopping Reio's death. Ichigo, Ganju and the others were not yet made aware of Yhwach absorbing the Soul King into him, nor were they aware of his true motives. Which means, Ganju did not have Yhwach's plan in mind when making this statement. So what would his comment be referring to?
Simple. It's referring to the death of the Soul King causing it. Without this, there is no known evidence of Yhwach being able to destroy the Garganta. Moving on.
But Attack Potency and Durability are a different story. The arrow physically penetrated Yhwach at point blank range, which would be impossible to happen if he were legitimately 3-A or Low 2-C:
To add insult to injury, even WITH the currently accepted upgrades, Uryu isn’t accepted as being either 3-A or Low 2-C with Silver Arrow, so we acknowledge that the arrow isn't that strong, making it a legitimate anti feat for Yhwach to be penetrated by it. Which further puts his upgrade into question.
Not only that, but Plot Induced Stupidity also can’t be used here as an argument when this feat is Yhwaches only 3-A / Low 2-C feat for the upgrade and has no prior feat on this scale to substantiate it. In order or something to be Plot Induced Stupidity, a character needs prior feats on the proposed level or near it to make it PIS. Like a character consistently known as a Multiversal being getting harmed by planetary attacks in one instance, or if a mountain leveler is knocked out by a city block level opponent. Those would be PIS. But if a character does not possess feats on higher scales above the lower tier they are displayed in, an argument for that character suffering from PIS cant be substantiated. In Yhwach's case, we know the silver arrow is PIS against the Almighty since seeing all futures should have allowed him to see Uryu's attack easily. However, in the sense of a tier upgrade, Yhwach has no previous feats outside of this one near this level to argue PIS, so the counter argument here falls apart. This leads me into another smaller point to address.
Adding to that, the new stabilization standards would also invalidate this for Yhwach, the same way it does for Reio.
Since I saw this brought up in the upgrade thread for Bleach for comparison, I'll be addressing the false equivalency here. An example of a legitimate case of villain tropes being acceptable to keep a tier is with Zamasu from Dragon Ball Super. Zamasu is a false equivalence to this since, unlike the case with Yhwach, Zamasu can be considered 2-C because Zamasu has actual evidence of being capable of becoming 2-C. He already became one with the space-time of Future Trunks's timeline, and was also appearing in Goku's present timeline. That proves Zamasu was able to breech into a different timeline after already becoming the entirety of another timeline. Breeching the timelines proves, beyond a reasonable doubt, that its factually in Zamasu's capabilities to become one with more than one timeline, hence his eventual 2-C rating. Zen'o destroying Zamasu before he finished doesn't change that fact that Zamasu was capable of it and was actually doing the feat.
Yhwach, on the other hand, doesn't have that kind of support to sustain the "villain trope" argument. With Reio's stability feat no longer amounting to anything, Yhwach absorbing his, Mimihagi's and Ichigo's power shows he doesnt get 3-A to Low 2-C power with amps. Yhwach's own stability feat no longer exists due to the same thing, and the fact that his death did not cause the worlds to begin collapsing again like Reio and Mimihagi's did. And on top of all of this, Yhwach is never portrayed during his last moments to actually breech more than what was shown to us, the seireitei of the Soul Society. No evidence that Yhwach was, in those moments, effecting the dimensions actually exists. Because of all of this, there's no guarantee beyond reasonable doubts that Yhwach was producing 3-A or Low 2-C power in that instance. We have no real clue on what was going to happen or how the destruction would unfold.
The only leg that this feat has to stand up on to be considered that high at this point is relying on statements of Yhwach destroying the worlds and Yhwach himself being sure of performing the feat. These are guesstimates. And I'd like to just remind everyone of how considerably high this upgrade actually is given the fact that the very next tier these characters land in without the upgrade is High 6-A.
5-B / 5-A Bleach God Tiers were only a thing to begin with because we initially went with the assertion that the Soul King's weakened state stabilized the individual planets across the Living World, Soul Society, and Hueco Mundo to give that rating. But recently, we abandoned that notion for the weakened Soul King and now go with him stabilizing the actual universes in the Cosmology themselves. Now that the new stability standards no longer accepts the Soul King's stability feat, 5-B and 5-A would also no longer be possible under these circumstances. This leaves High 6-A as the only tier left for the god tiers to start from.
On this note, I'll leave it at this. Would this realistically be enough to keep an upgrade at this level? Are we seriously going to allow guesstimates and statements as viable enough solid evidences to sustain an upgrade that has a verse climb a whopping FIFTEEN tiers all at once?
The only part of this, from what I see, that might remain unchanged is the Prime version of the Soul King keeping 3-A / Low 2-C through the Almighty, and only with the Almighty. And even that's fishy since the official translations of the CFYOW Bleach novel that details the Soul King's creation of the cosmology is not yet going to be available for a couple of months. Ideally, we should wait until official information like that is available to use before applying such high level upgrades.
Other than that, these are the end results should the downgrade get passed:
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:
And yes, this will be done as a staff thread. The upgrade thread went on for 12 pages, barely over 24 hours, with minimal amount of staff members to take a look into it themselves. Since the upgrades were massive and highly controversial for one of the most popular verses that effects the credibility of the wiki, it required a large amount of staff approval before getting accepted, something that didn't happen. Due to the nature of these threads that attract a lot of comments that turn them chaotic and unmanageable, this will be done here in the staff forum to keep the thread under control. Obviously, @Arc7Kuroi will be allowed to post in the thread to provide responses to things he disagrees with to keep this fair since he brought these upgrades here in the first place. Same goes for @ProfessorKukui4Life who argued on that thread.
Now let's begin.
Reasons for the Upgrades
To get everyone up to speed, lets sum up the reasons for the upgrades to begin with before I get into why I think they should be downgraded. You can look to this sandbox made here as well and the upgrade thread I linked above. Long-story short, the reasons for current Low 2-C Bleach are these:- Reio / The Soul King creating the Bleach Cosmology, using the powers of the Almighty, by splitting the original universe into the worlds known to exist in the verse:
- The Soul Society
- The World of the Living
- Hueco Mundo
- Dangai, the world that exists between the Soul Society and World of the Living
- Garganta, a reishi void that encompasses all the worlds in Bleach
- Reio / The Soul King in his weakened state maintaining the Bleach Cosmology as the lynchpin for it
- Yhwach wanting to reverse what the Soul King did to the Bleach Cosmology by destroying all of the worlds and returning everything back to the old universe
First Issue: Soul Kings Passive Feat Is Gone
To start out, the passive feat of the Soul King for "maintaining the Bleach Cosmology" is invalid. And for a number of different reasons.Reason 1: Stability Feat Standards Being Revised
Our newly revised standards for stability / sustenance feats that were created recently throws this part of the upgrade for Bleach out the window. Keeping it short and to the point, stability feats are no longer assumed by default to scale to a character's statistics (something that is common sense and should have been the case from the start but got overlooked up until now). With our new standards, you now need far more evidence to get stability feats accepted, which effects the Soul King and the rest of Bleach's new upgrades in the process as they don't fit the bill.When looking into this, there's evidence suggesting that the Soul King stabilizing the Bleach Cosmology is being taken out of context and doesn't scale to either 3-A or Low 2-C at all (the latter I'll be getting to later).
Reason 2: The Soul King & The Soul Cycle
Evidence suggests Reio stabilizes the worlds via stabilizing just the universal flow of souls, not the worlds in the Cosmology themselves.Counter Argument: "No, Its been proven that Reio stabilizes the worlds themselves, not the flow of souls."
Yes, I've been made aware of this from a previous upgrade thread, made here, that got the Soul King to 4-A. It uses this statement from Yhwach:
That upgrade thread used this scan to prove Reio stabilizes the soul society and the other worlds itself based on Yhwach saying so here, which opened the doors to the upgrades accepted now. However, I argue that this is just being taken out of context. Because Yhwach also specifies in this comment that "massive numbers of Konpaku pass through" the soul society that Reio stabilizes. Why would the flow of souls be mentioned if it wasn't at all a factor in keeping the soul society in check? The first part of the statement is being taken to say Reio stabilizes the soul society directly, but its ignoring the flow of souls also being specified, which offers another way of interpreting the statement. The fact that Yhwach specifies "massive amounts of Konpaku pass through" indicates that Reio is linked to the flow of souls, which in turn, could mean he keeps the soul society stabilized by stabilizing the flow of souls. And this interpretation is supported by 2 strong evidences.
Evidence 1: Cant Fear Your Own World Novel
This page here is from Chapter 6 in the officially English translated CFYOW Bleach novel. Read right from the beginning of the page:https://cdn.***************.com/file/AnimeRleases/bleachnovel_1.2_6_11.jpg
The Soul King is never said to stabilize the worlds here. Instead, its outright said that the Soul King controls the universal flow of souls as the world's lynchpin, giving more support to the interpretation that he doesn't stabilize the actual worlds, but the flow of souls, which sustain the worlds. Then we get to this next part:
Evidence 2: The Threat of the Quincies
This will be where most of the support comes in for the Soul King stabilizing the soul cycle as I saw this mentioned elsewhere here. And that is the threat the Quincies posed to the Bleach cosmology. These scans will explain the details:
Quincies and Shinigami differed from each other in how they disposed of hollows. Shinigami are considered balancers who cleanse hollows and send them to the Soul Society, while Quincies eradicate them completely. As a result, the Quincies removed those souls from the soul cycle of sending souls between the Soul Society and Living World. By doing that, they would unbalance the amount of souls between the two worlds, which as explained, would cause the collapse of the universe as a result. Being a threat to the worlds in this manner was the reason why Shinigami actively sought to prevent Quincies from disrupting the balance in the first place, even going as far as to kill majority of them.
The Soul King stabilizing the entire Cosmology conflicts with this. The Quincies are, narratively and consistently, treated as threats to the Bleach cosmology in-universe. Why would the Quincies be regarded as such a threat to the worlds if the Soul King directly stabilizes these said worlds? No matter what the Quincies would do to the soul cycle, Reio stabilizing the worlds would prevent them from getting collapsed. Even more so, Shinigami's would not have been required to dispose of Quincies if the Soul King sustaining the worlds was actually the case. The only way this doesn't conflict with this plot-point is if the Soul King only sustains the flow of souls.
Counter Argument: "You are still wrong, Reio does not sustain the flow of souls, he sustains the worlds"
Lets say this is true then. Even with the evidence given, lets say its wrong and the Soul King does indeed sustain the worlds directly, not the flow of souls.There's more reasons as to why the Soul King's stability feat is invalid.
Reason 3: The Soul King's Stability Done With Alternate Methods
Evidence suggests the Soul King stabilizes the worlds via magical components and/or other unknown factors that are independent of his statistics.Evidence 1: Soul King Is a Lynchpin
This point doesn't use much besides the scan I already posted. The Soul King sustaining the world's is only ever said to be the case when he is a lynchpin for the world, which would imply that his role as a lynchpin specifically is a special competent for doing it, not his power.This will be elaborated on later, but what also helps suggest this point is Yhwach. He had the Soul King absorbed, and despite dying twice to Ichigo, the worlds in the Bleach cosmology were not at all getting destroyed. Yhwach sustaining the worlds is only ever made the case when he becomes the new lynchpin to replace Reio.
Evidence 2: Soul King's Life Force
Read these scans to see the upcoming details.Shown here, Ichigo slices apart the Soul King, which starts the crumbling of the worlds the very moment Reio is killed:
To counteract the crumbling of the worlds, Ukitake unleashes from inside of him Mimihagi, the right arm of the Soul King who he has now become:
By unleashing Mimihagi, Ukitake stops the crumbling of the worlds:
Mimhagi does this by physically latching itself onto Reio's sliced-apart corpse, replacing him as the Soul King to keep the worlds stabilized. However, this is outright said to only last as long as Ukitake's life lasts:
Mimihagi was able to become a temporary soul king by physically latching itself onto Reio's corpse, stopping the crumbling of the worlds, and it’s outright said that the stabilization of the worlds would only last as long as Ukitake’s lifespan does since Ukitake and Mimihagi became the same entity. This implies that stabilizing the worlds with life force is another possibility to consider here for this. Even moreso, Mimihagi is the right arm of the Soul King, so by physically attaching itself to the one it was once apart of, it temporarily becoming a lynchpin makes sense, even if not done with the soul kings life force.
Counter-Argument: "This is still wrong, Reio stabilizes the worlds with nothing else but his power"
For this claim, if this is supposed to be the case, precise evidence is needed for this. As outlined in our new standards for stability feats, it would need to be specifically proved that the power of the Soul King is what's being used as the method for sustaining the cosmology.Requirement 2: Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.
On top of that, this still wouldn't change anything about this downgrade. Even if everything presented so far is irrelevant, and Reio does stabilize the worlds with actual power, it still isn’t quantifiable to keep this upgrade.
Reason 4: The Soul King Stabilizing The Cosmology Isn't 3-A or Low 2-C
Outlined in our new standards for stabilization feats, one of the requirements is to prove that a character's stabilization is equal to the destructive output released by the structure's destruction. So if for example, for stabilization to be 3-A or Low 2-C, the character's sustenance would need to be able to rival the destructive output of a universe being completely destroyed instantly, or immediately. And that's not the case here for Bleach.The destruction of the worlds brought forth by the Soul Kings death isn’t instant or immediate in any way, shape or form. The best we see and get from the crumbling of the worlds is a dimensional quake trembling through the worlds, and not all of the worlds are even effected the same way. The Soul society violently shakes, Hueco Mundo shakes to a lesser extent, and the world of the living gets a mild long lasting quake where nothing gets destroyed at all.
Counter-argument: "Multiple characters make a point of saying without the Soul King the entire bleach universe would cease to be."
I keep seeing this get passed around, so I'm addressing it here. We seem to be at the point where claims of "the universe will cease to exist!" or anything similar as an end result of what happens is automatically enough to keep 3-A or Low 2-C ratings on the table. It isn't.
We know that "the universe would cease to be" is a thing as the end result of the Soul King no longer being alive to keep that from happening. But that being the conclusion doesn't at all matter here when looking at just how the destruction unfolds. The result of what happens in the end is completely irrelevant against the fact that the destruction itself isn't instant or immediate destruction. The destruction starts instantly / immediately, but it doesn't happen instantly / immediately, as you can see above. The destruction spans over an extensively long timeframe, to the point where nothing dimensionally even begins to deteriorate. And as mentioned, the destruction isn't even treated the same across all of the effected worlds.
The destruction happening here isn't 3-A destruction, let alone Low 2-C levels of it. So the Soul King wouldn't need output on either levels to stop the worlds from crumbling, even if he stabilizes the cosmology with power and not an alternate method. Now to get to the 2nd issue with this upgrade.
Second Issue: Yhwach Destroying The Worlds
I said earlier that Soul King's feat being invalidated would, overall, effect the entire upgrade. I'll be going over the reasons now.Reason 1: Yhwach's lack of power
This one is simple enough to start on. With the Soul Kings passive feat being invalid and unquantifiable now, Yhwach absorbing him, Mimihagi and Ichigos power's to get a strength buff from them is logistically impossible to give him power to be 3-A or Low 2-C, which puts into question his capability of destroying the worlds without a shadow of a doubt.Reason 2: Yhwach "Destroying" the Garganta
Small pivot here, but its part of the feat, so I'm addressing it. According to this statement here made by Ganju, the Garganta would be destroyed if they lost in the end:
This comment from Ganju is the only direct statement we get here about the Garganta being effected with everything else. There's 2 issues with this claim of Yhwach destroying the Garganta, as I mentioned in the beginning of this thread. And they both involve Ganju's statement here.
Problem 1: Ganju's NOT a credible source here
I'm laying it out here. Why in the world are we taking the words of someone who, last I checked, is an ordinary fodder in his own verse as literal for this upgrade? Especially for destruction that's as large as this? This isn't as if Ganju is well experienced into the subject of the worlds crumbling as a result of the Soul Kings death. We've heard statements about the destruction of the worlds from several people much more experienced and credible into the topic than Ganju. And not once do we get another statement from them about the Garganta being effected, aside from Ganju jumping to those conclusions. This is pretty akin to an ordinary person thinking someone far stronger than they are could do things they cant actually do. AKA, this looks more like overhyping being done.And that's not the worst of this issue.
Problem 2: Ganju's Statement Supposedly Being About Yhwach
Even if Ganju is somehow a credible person to be speaking on this subject, this statement still isn't speaking about Yhwach's plans of returning the Bleach cosmos back to the original universe. This statement is referring to the death of the Soul King causing it to be destroyed.Go to these four chapters yourself for more clarification. When he made this comment about the Garganta's destruction, Ganju was not yet made aware of Yhwach's plans to return the Bleach cosmos back into the original universe. He was speaking about the Soul King's death being the cause of that since he came to the Soul King's palace with Ichigo to stop Yhwach from killing him in the first place. And throughout the span of the 4 chapters I linked, he is involved in Yoruichi's ambush to use the Garganta and sneak their way back into Reio's position in the palace, which again, refers back to their plan of stopping Reio's death. Ichigo, Ganju and the others were not yet made aware of Yhwach absorbing the Soul King into him, nor were they aware of his true motives. Which means, Ganju did not have Yhwach's plan in mind when making this statement. So what would his comment be referring to?
Simple. It's referring to the death of the Soul King causing it. Without this, there is no known evidence of Yhwach being able to destroy the Garganta. Moving on.
Reason 3: The Silver Arrow Penetrating Yhwach
Counter-argument: "Yhwach being hit with Silver Arrow is Plot Induced Stupidity"
Yeah, but no, PIS isn’t an excuse here. At least in this manner it isn't. We've heard time and time again about Yhwach not seeing Uryu and the arrow with the Almighty's precog is PIS, and that is indeed true.But Attack Potency and Durability are a different story. The arrow physically penetrated Yhwach at point blank range, which would be impossible to happen if he were legitimately 3-A or Low 2-C:
To add insult to injury, even WITH the currently accepted upgrades, Uryu isn’t accepted as being either 3-A or Low 2-C with Silver Arrow, so we acknowledge that the arrow isn't that strong, making it a legitimate anti feat for Yhwach to be penetrated by it. Which further puts his upgrade into question.
Not only that, but Plot Induced Stupidity also can’t be used here as an argument when this feat is Yhwaches only 3-A / Low 2-C feat for the upgrade and has no prior feat on this scale to substantiate it. In order or something to be Plot Induced Stupidity, a character needs prior feats on the proposed level or near it to make it PIS. Like a character consistently known as a Multiversal being getting harmed by planetary attacks in one instance, or if a mountain leveler is knocked out by a city block level opponent. Those would be PIS. But if a character does not possess feats on higher scales above the lower tier they are displayed in, an argument for that character suffering from PIS cant be substantiated. In Yhwach's case, we know the silver arrow is PIS against the Almighty since seeing all futures should have allowed him to see Uryu's attack easily. However, in the sense of a tier upgrade, Yhwach has no previous feats outside of this one near this level to argue PIS, so the counter argument here falls apart. This leads me into another smaller point to address.
Reason 4: Yhwach Doesn't Stabilize The Worlds
I said this before, but I'll go into a bit more detail here. Yhwach doesn’t stabilize the worlds, despite having the Soul King absorbed, as he was not yet made into a lynchpin or put into the same position as Reio was to stabilize the worlds. This is proven by the fact that despite dying twice to Ichigo, the dimensional quaking across the worlds didn’t happen either time Yhwach was killed. This is in contrast to Mimihagi and the Soul King's deaths effecting the worlds. The dimensional quaking started immediately after both Reio, the lynchpin, died and after Mimihagi, who attached itself to Reio, was absorbed by Yhwach. If Yhwach was legitiamtely doing the same thing as the former 2, this would also have been the case for him, and Ichigo would have been more cautious against killing the person who's supposedly keeping all of the world's in check. But neither is the case for what happened.Adding to that, the new stabilization standards would also invalidate this for Yhwach, the same way it does for Reio.
Reason 5: Yhwach Destroying The Worlds Isnt 3-A or Low 2-C Destruction
We get to the biggest issue against Yhwach's upgrade out of them all. And that's the timeframe of the feat. Yhwach was destroying the worlds overtime, as previous scans show above. This feat was not immediate, let alone instant, to substantiate the feat using 3-A to Low 2-C power all in one instance. It is mostly built on guesstimates of what Yhwach was planning to do versus what he was actually doing here.Counter-argument: "This is a common villian trope, Yhwach was stopped by Ichigo and Uryu before he could destroy the worlds, it's not a reason to invalidate the feat"
No, “Villain Trope” isn’t a counter argument for this like some want to believe here. Because even WITH that argument being the case, there needs to be actual evidence that Yhwach was actually CAPABLE of doing the feat in the first place, which we aren’t given here. When it comes to the idea of characters "being stopped" before their feats are done, it's one thing to claim that when the character is clearly capable of performing what they intend to do. But when it's not taken into account that the character ultimately has failed to show and prove that they are able to complete their feats, beyond any reasonable doubt, that excuse isn't flying to support an upgrade this large that has little to stand on.Since I saw this brought up in the upgrade thread for Bleach for comparison, I'll be addressing the false equivalency here. An example of a legitimate case of villain tropes being acceptable to keep a tier is with Zamasu from Dragon Ball Super. Zamasu is a false equivalence to this since, unlike the case with Yhwach, Zamasu can be considered 2-C because Zamasu has actual evidence of being capable of becoming 2-C. He already became one with the space-time of Future Trunks's timeline, and was also appearing in Goku's present timeline. That proves Zamasu was able to breech into a different timeline after already becoming the entirety of another timeline. Breeching the timelines proves, beyond a reasonable doubt, that its factually in Zamasu's capabilities to become one with more than one timeline, hence his eventual 2-C rating. Zen'o destroying Zamasu before he finished doesn't change that fact that Zamasu was capable of it and was actually doing the feat.
Yhwach, on the other hand, doesn't have that kind of support to sustain the "villain trope" argument. With Reio's stability feat no longer amounting to anything, Yhwach absorbing his, Mimihagi's and Ichigo's power shows he doesnt get 3-A to Low 2-C power with amps. Yhwach's own stability feat no longer exists due to the same thing, and the fact that his death did not cause the worlds to begin collapsing again like Reio and Mimihagi's did. And on top of all of this, Yhwach is never portrayed during his last moments to actually breech more than what was shown to us, the seireitei of the Soul Society. No evidence that Yhwach was, in those moments, effecting the dimensions actually exists. Because of all of this, there's no guarantee beyond reasonable doubts that Yhwach was producing 3-A or Low 2-C power in that instance. We have no real clue on what was going to happen or how the destruction would unfold.
The only leg that this feat has to stand up on to be considered that high at this point is relying on statements of Yhwach destroying the worlds and Yhwach himself being sure of performing the feat. These are guesstimates. And I'd like to just remind everyone of how considerably high this upgrade actually is given the fact that the very next tier these characters land in without the upgrade is High 6-A.
High 6-A?
Yes, High 6-A's the tier these characters would be at without the upgrade. 5-B and 5-A are no longer a thing either.5-B / 5-A Bleach God Tiers were only a thing to begin with because we initially went with the assertion that the Soul King's weakened state stabilized the individual planets across the Living World, Soul Society, and Hueco Mundo to give that rating. But recently, we abandoned that notion for the weakened Soul King and now go with him stabilizing the actual universes in the Cosmology themselves. Now that the new stability standards no longer accepts the Soul King's stability feat, 5-B and 5-A would also no longer be possible under these circumstances. This leaves High 6-A as the only tier left for the god tiers to start from.
On this note, I'll leave it at this. Would this realistically be enough to keep an upgrade at this level? Are we seriously going to allow guesstimates and statements as viable enough solid evidences to sustain an upgrade that has a verse climb a whopping FIFTEEN tiers all at once?
End Results:
If you kept up with what I've said here, this is why I advocate for the downgrades. Little is left for the upgrade to be supported and accepted under these circumstances.The only part of this, from what I see, that might remain unchanged is the Prime version of the Soul King keeping 3-A / Low 2-C through the Almighty, and only with the Almighty. And even that's fishy since the official translations of the CFYOW Bleach novel that details the Soul King's creation of the cosmology is not yet going to be available for a couple of months. Ideally, we should wait until official information like that is available to use before applying such high level upgrades.
Other than that, these are the end results should the downgrade get passed:
- Reio could possibly keep 3-A and Low 2-C, but strictly with the Almighty's hax, his statistics get downgraded to High 6-A.
- Reio could possibly be put at unknown or just plainly High 6-A should we decide to wait for the official translation of the upcoming volume in the CFYOW novel, which I think is more preferable.
- Ichigo, Aizen, Orihimes Shields, Yhwach and Weakened Reio get downgraded all together to High 6-A.
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:
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