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Bleach Downgrades (Staff Only)

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Matthew_Schroeder said:
I have a soft spot for Bleach myself, but I feel that my enjoyment for the series is spoiled by the toxicity often surrounding it in forums and fans. I would hope that this thread isn't like that.
Click to expand...
Same, I started the first 4 Bankai Discussion Threads on the wiki back in 18.

I like the series, I'm just not that fond of the Discourse around it or any of the HST series for that matter.
 
If non-staff want to be here they should go through the standard procedure of getting a staff member to vouch for them, otherwise no. And the derailing certainly isn't helping right now.
 
Crabwhale said:
If non-staff want to be here they should go through the standard procedure of getting a staff member to vouch for them, otherwise no. And the derailing certainly isn't helping right now.
Click to expand...
Agreed with this. Several knowledgeable non-staff members have been invited already. Let's wait to see what they have to say.
 
I also agree with Crabwhale.
 
So I'm going to talk about 6 different ways I believe you can scale the Bleach God Tiers. The only feat I'm not going to mention is the lifting the Quincy palace feat because that is way too subjective with the bajillion distance calcs and the various timeframes you could assume.

Gremmy's Meteor, Kenpachi, and Hikone
  • Scaling Chain: Meteor < ShiKen ~ Gerard ~ Byakuya ~ Tokinada ~ Grimmjow < Res Grimmjow (5-10x) ~ Hikone < Gentei Kaijo Released Hikone (5x) < Res Hikone (5-10x) < TS Ichigo < Almighty Yhwach < TS HoS Ichigo (5-10x) ~ SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach < TB HoS Ichigo (5-10x) < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post-Restoration TB/Inner Zangetsu Ichigo < Prime ReiO (he still scales to his creation feat).
  • Tiering: This sits the God Tiers anywhere from 3125-50000x greater than that meteor or Multi-Continental.
  • This meta is simple, meteor happens on screen you just have to calc it.
  • The biggest downside with this imo is the fact that it chooses to ignore factoring in any of the more crazy creation and destruction statements in favor of a "on screen feats or it didn't happen" approach. Which isn't inherently wrong, but it does lead to potential extreme lowball. Why, because it is facetious to claim that if it didn't happen on screen it is invalid. Kubo among other authors can't always show universal and beyond feats without ruining their narrative, so instead they use statements. The problem I further take with this is that I know on this site we scale off of statements and not feats alone, we scale off of statements for Bleach with earlier stuff. So if it's going to be a feats only deal then the entire site needs a revamp, else it's just blatant sticklering for Bleach.
The blanks are capable of slamming planets
  • https://4anime.to/anime/bleach-movie-1-memories-of-nobody (please support the official release if you can but if not here it is)
  • https://vsbattles.com/threads/problems-with-the-senna-calculation-bleach.53844/
  • Scaling Chain: Blanks (5-B) < WSK < TS Ichigo < Almighty Yhwach < TS HoS Ichigo (5-10x) ~ SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach < TB HoS Ichigo (5-10x) < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post-Restoration TB/Inner Zangetsu Ichigo < Prime ReiO (still got that creation thang on him).
  • Tiering this sits the God Tiers anywhere from 5-B all the way up to 5-B/5-A or Planetary to Large Planetary.
  • The crux of this scaling is this, the Blanks are a small portion of the Soul Cycle that get lost in Valleys of Screams, so if the Soul King is scaling vastly above stray Blanks then he should scale vastly above their 5-B feat.
  • This meta falls under the same scrutiny as the meteor meta, it just yields a bigger number because it's more impressive. The reason I think this is a better meta than the meteor meta for the God Tiers is because it more directly ties to the Soul King. The meteor just follows a chain up to Ichigo, while the Blanks provide a direct link to the Soul Cycle and therefore the Soul King.
Gremmy created outer space
  • https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/800086388086931456/gremmy1.PNG, https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/800086402364342342/gremmy2.PNG, https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/800086416922116106/gremmy3.PNG, https://official-complete.granpulse.us/manga/Bleach/0578-006.png
  • From downtown CFYOW II: "Gremmy Thoumeaux: that was the name of a boy who, barring Yhwach, was said to be the strongest of the Stern Ritter...", "through the V Schrift--The Visionary--that Yhwach had bestowed upon him, had created his flesh body by "imagining" it. He could convert what he imagined into reality, and his abilities were like a god's.", "he had even materialized a gigantic meteorite and outer space itself in the Seireitei.", and "the ability to instantaneously create outer space...".
  • Four instances where we are told that what Gremmy imagines he creates, and what he created was outer space.
  • The first counter I've seen to this: prove Gremmy created the stars there.
    • Rebuttal: Occam's Razor. As there is no direct explanation to why there are stars in the outer space Gremmy created, Occam's Razor states he created them as it is the simplest and easiest assumption to make. What we are shown is what Gremmy imagined and what Gremmy imagines he creates.
  • Second counter: They're there to look cool.
    • Rebuttal: Doesn't matter why they are there, they're still there. Isn't all visual media existing to provoke some kind of emotion while looking at it? This is not an argument valid to discredit the feat.
  • Third counter: Since Gremmy imagined it they're imaginary and not real.
    • Rebuttal: "He could convert what he imagined into REALITY..."
  • Fourth counter: Meteor is much weaker than stars in space so it's not linear and falls apart.
  • Does this scale to AP? Yes it scales to Gremmy's AP, he refers to his abilities as the "power of imagination", everything he does is a creation feat. You can't scale off the meteor and then ignore this as it is contradictory. CFYOW also exclusively talks about Gremmy's creation abilities when refering to him as the strongest, so by some measure or another even the verse recognizes that Gremmy scales to his Visionary.
  • Does Kenpachi scale? Maybe. Here we see Kenpachi tank the clones that imagined that outer space and here we have Gremmy admit that Kenpachi is greater than his imagination. Kenpachi tanked those clones whose combined AP would be relative to the outer space they created in combination with Gremmy admitting that Kenpachi's true power surpasses the limits of his imagination support Kenpachi upscaling this. However, I still understand the skepticism with Kenpachi.
  • Does anyone concretely scale above Gremmy's creation feats? Yhwach does. CFYOW II talks about how what made Gremmy the strongest was his creation feats and then also goes on to say he was still second to Yhwach. Yhwach would have had to imprison Gremmy some time prior to getting his Almighty back as younger people like Liltotto and Askin are aware of the Gremmy situation, but being that it is vague I'll go with Almighty Yhwach
  • This leaves us with at least the following scaling chain: Gremmy (4-A) < Almighty Yhwach ~ TS Ichigo (tanked an attack from Yhwach with only burns) < TS HoS Ichigo (5-10x) ~ SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach < TB HoS Ichigo (5-10x) < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post-Restoration TB/Inner Zangetsu Ichigo < Prime ReiO (hinga dinga universe created).
  • Tiering sits them at 4-A or Multi-Solar System level.
  • Again this falls under the same scrutiny as the last two. It's on screen, it happens, but it ignores the use of any statements regarding what Yhwach is capable of.
A quick timeout
So I want to address the past three metas/feats and the big issue I see with all of them. Foremost they are all on screen and happen so you can't really argue against their validity, the Memories of Nobody feat is a little less iffy than Gremmy as it's debatable how Gremmy even scales to his feats in general. In terms of most valid to least valid of the above three I'd rank them as Memories of Nobody > Meteor > Outer Space. My issue comes in when we consider that using these metas in general means you are ignoring this, which I will explain it's relevance in scaling below.

Hell Verse
  • Kubo created Hell's design so the design and structure is at least canon. He also said the Ulq vs VL Ichigo fight in the movie was closer to how he envisioned it, so you could argue the showings in the movie are canon representations of VL Ichigo.
  • https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/800111642129203220/Hell_Verse_Size.PNG
  • Scaling Chain: SE Ulq ~ VL Ichigo (3-A) < Fourth Fusion Aizen < Fifth Fusion Aizen < Dangai/Mugetsu Ichigo = TS Ichigo < Almighty Yhwach < TS HoS Ichigo (5-10x) ~ SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach < TB HoS Ichigo (5-10x) < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post-Restoration TB/Inner Zangetsu Ichigo < Prime ReiO (murbles).
  • Tiering: Universal.
  • Or if you don't want to go by the statement on Hell's size being multiple universes and stick to multiple worlds we have the same chain but with 5-B to 5-A, Ichigo is concerned his Hollow would destroy the world.
  • I'm half including this for the meme, but I think it's worth noting that this movie potentially means that Kubo and the staff working on Bleach think Ichigo is universal.
Destroying the 3 Realms of Existence (this is what I argue)
  • I'm going to start by debunking points AKM made.
  • "Evidence suggests Reio stabilizes the worlds via stabilizing just the universal flow of souls, not the worlds in the Cosmology themselves."
    • Allow me to steelman the argument that SK is only stabilizing the flow of souls. Ganryu states that there are an infinite amount of souls, this is supported by Hell being multi-universal in size, further supported by the flow being universal, and even further supported by the Garganta being infinite (so it can house infinite souls). Stabilizing infinite souls (as souls possess non-zero energy) would be a High 3-A stability feat.
  • "However, I argue that this is just being taken out of context. Because Yhwach also specifies in this comment that "massive numbers of Konpaku pass through" the soul society that Reio stabilizes. Why would the flow of souls be mentioned if it wasn't at all a factor in keeping the soul society in check?"
    • You're now assuming that the mechanism that stabilizes the worlds is the flow of souls and not the other way around. We are told the Soul King stabilizes the Soul Society. He can stabilize the flow of souls too, but he is without a doubt stabilizing the entire Soul Society as per the scan you provided. I'll go into the size of the Soul Society later.
  • "The Soul King is never said to stabilize the worlds here. Instead, its outright said that the Soul King controls the universal flow of souls"
    • As per the scan you provided with Yhwach this means that the Soul King stabilizes Soul Society and controls the universal flow. And again Ganryu states there are an infinite amount of souls.
  • "You are still wrong, Reio does not sustain the flow of souls, he sustains the worlds"
    • He does both, it's not one or the other, it's both. You've provided scans saying such.
  • "The Soul King sustaining the world's is only ever said to be the case when he is a lynchpin for the world, which would imply that his role as a lynchpin specifically is a special competent for doing it, not his power."
    • Here we find out that the whatever the Soul King is at the time uses spiritual power (Reiryoku) to stabilize whatever it stabilizes. This means that yes the Soul King does use his power to stabilize the Soul Society and Universal flow of souls. This correlates to the Reio for this reason, they mention that because Yhwach had the Reio's power he was able to stabilize the worlds. <- This is the precise evidence needed for stability using power, it's stated that spiritual power is used.
  • "The destruction of the worlds brought forth by the Soul Kings death isn’t instant or immediate in any way, shape or form. The best we see and get from the crumbling of the worlds is a dimensional quake trembling through the worlds, and not all of the worlds are even effected the same way."
    • I'll go into the size of SS and whatnot later to prove that overtime doesn't matter as destroying a 4D space in a finite time is still above destroying an infinite space instantly. However, the claim made by AKM was that stabilizing the entire cosmos isn't means for it, to that I say Aura says the Garganta is infinite thus, regardless of the time it's a High 3-A feat.
  • "With the Soul Kings passive feat being invalid and unquantifiable now, Yhwach absorbing him, Mimihagi and Ichigos power's to get a strength buff from them is logistically impossibleto give him power to be 3-A or Low 2-C, which puts into question his capability of destroying the worlds without a shadow of a doubt."
    • If I steelman and say the stability feat is invalid, it doesn't matter. Yhwach still scales off of this. It doesn't matter if you can't quantify the WSK, that by no means disqualifies the various statements. All it does is call into question if the WSK is unquantifiable.
  • "Ganju's not a credible source"
    • As a member of one of the Noble Houses that partook in the original formation and outcome that resulted from forming the Bleach universe, Ganju or any Shiba for that matter would be one of the MOST credible sources to comment on the collapse of the Bleach universe. You claim we shouldn't take his word because power-wise he is fodder... last I checked a character's power level did not determine their credibility. Ganju is giving exposition as well, as in it is what the author wants to convey.
  • "Ganju was not yet made awareof Yhwach's plans to return the Bleach cosmos back into the original universe."
    • Correct he just knew the Soul King's existence was put in danger. And being the Shiba clan member he is, filled with arguably more knowledge on the Soul King aside from the Tsunayashiro clan and Ichibe, still said the Garganta would be destroyed. Implying if anything that the Soul King is stabilizing everything as per the implications of Yhwach's statement. Yhwach also didn't want to revert the universe back, he wanted to destroy and merge everything to create a new universe.
  • "The Silver Arrow"
    • Jugram says Uryu's Antithesis may be the only thing capable of countering Yhwach. Ryuken tells us that Stil Silver is Quincy kryptonite. The notion of that arrow scaling to Uryu's AP is beyond disingenous. We are told that Uryu has the hax to counter Yhwach and then he pierces Yhwach with a special arrow that had the sole purpose of negging all of Yhwach's power. This isn't something that scales to Uryu's stats.
  • "Yhwach doesn't stabilize the worlds"
  • "there needs to be actual evidence that Yhwach was actually CAPABLE of doing the feat in the first place"
    • Multiple statements and the dimensional quakes. Plus the stability feat isn't invalid like you claim it is.
  • "Almighty is hax only"
Quantifying destroying the 3 realms (you can peep my google doc on the old thread for additional info, this is what I argue)
  • We know from Askin that Yhwach was going to destroy Hueco Mundo, Soul Society, and World of the Living.
  • We know that the three realms aren't planets and to argue such is direct admission that the Dangai is a literal pipeline, like in Dakota lol. "If they could be likened" means they cannot be liked to planets as per the if.
  • Here from CFYOW II we see the theory of general relativity is canon to the Bleach universe. Meaning that is it hypothesizes, space and time are linked in a space-time. With my google doc from the og CRT we already had evidence that the Bleach realms were space-times, but this is new and further evidence for it. Also from CFYOW II, Giriko (having bounded with the god of time) claims that time is infinite, which going by general relativity would imply that the WotL (SS is parallel to WotL) is an infinite space-time. What Giriko is telling us is that the WotL is merely an exact replica of our irl universe (which most already assumed or knew). See here for more: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cu8ywQwSxvcd9228Mpruf3OPkRbLrn4lxSX0MLYRSkg/edit?usp=sharing
  • So we know that WotL and by extension SS are at least universal space-times (as the use of infinite qualifies for universal size as per vsbw standards). We also know (see the doc for scans) that the SS and WotL are separate space-times. Destroying two universal space-times separated by a separate space-time is the definition of 2-C.
  • Aura calls the Garganta infinite (check the doc) and Ganryu as I've shown above said there are infinite souls. Even if you want to say they aren't infinite for whatever reasons, the use of infinite is grounds for universal size by VSBW standards. Those infinite souls occupying space in the Garganta. So Garganta is called infinite in size and can contain infinite souls. Two infinite statements for Garganta, it's destruction regardless of the time frame is High 3-A. However, the Garganta is a confirmed space-time as well making its destruction a Low 2-C feat even ignoring all the realm stuff.
  • To conclude Yhwach destroying the current Bleach universe and making a new one would be a Low 2-C to 2-C feat.
Final Meta Dimensional Transcendence
Which do I think is best?
Personally, I believe there exists the largest preponderance of evidence for universal Bleach. Meteor scaling is based off one scan (the meteor), Memory of Nobodies scaling is based off of one feat (planets collide), Outer space scaling is based off one scan and some statements, Hell Verse scaling is based on a more composite scaling, 4D/5D scaling is based on one fight and some databook statements, but universal scaling is based practically on 3 whole novels, numerous statements, and the narrative of the final arc. Thus why I argue universal/low-multi Bleach.

I know Warren and Imade are preparing responses as well. Lmao it apparently took me 5 hours to respond oops.
 
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Introduction

I need to preface this, I have been working on this response for hours, and I will not continue to respond. I am so tired of arguing nonsense like this. There were reasons I left the wiki and I did not come back to constantly keep doing this. I am solely making this response both as the wish of a friend and from the sheer audacity of the claims being made, but this will be the only time.

First things first, I have to point this out, only allowing one or two non-staff members to participate is ludicrous when a majority of Bleach supporters aren’t staff. That is literally silencing the opposition.

Allow 3-5 knowledgeable Bleach regular members to participate. I nominate at least Purgy and AppleLord to join with Arc. Perhaps AnonymousBlank, IMade (If and when is able to appear), and Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye as well.


You all don’t seem to realize the nonsense that is a VS Battle Wiki CRT. When 5-15 guys are dogpiling you, it automatically a losing battle of attrition. A legitimate debate is only possible when there is a comparably equal amount of competent members arguing back and forth on a topic.

Otherwise, this just a ******* circlejerk.

Note: I have been writing this response for hours, so if any changes were made on this topic, I apologize for me being both incorrect and coming off as antagonistic, if I do.

Weakened Soul King/Reio (WSK) Stabilization feat

The main thing I want to mention is that this belief that the current rankings are solely based on the Soul King’s stability feat is ludicrous.

And while, I think a good case can be made to argue that the stabilization feat is legitimate, as it is described that it is via Reiatsu or owns power that the worlds are held up as stated by Jugram here about how without Reio, Yhwach’s power is the only thing that can keep the world standing up.

There are other quotes, I believe, that state the same thing - that the stabilization of the world is done via the person’s power or Reiatsu. But I don’t have the time, resources, or willpower to make the arguments or search for the scans.

For a reminder of the requirements:

Requirement 1: Specify what exactly is being stabilized so that it is made clear what the character's sustainability is doing precisely.

Requirement 2: Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.

Requirement 3: Prove that the character's stabilization is comparable to the scale of the structure they are stabilizing. Preferably, it should be proven that the character's sustainability is comparable to the destruction of the structure to best show that their power rivals the destructive output of what would destroy the structure in the first place. Please keep in mind that this may vary depending on how the structure's destruction would occur. For example, if a character sustains the existence of a universe that would not be instantly or immediately destroyed when no longer supported, the power of their sustainability would not be comparable to destructive output that completely and immediately destroys a universe, and would not be sufficient enough to be given a 3-A or Low 2-C rating. However, their sustainability could be given either rating if the universe they sustain would be completely destroyed instantly or immediately without support.

Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats.

The Weakened Soul King obtains these requirements by:

Requirement 1: Numerous mentions that all three realms are sustained by the Soul King

Requirement 2: It is mentioned that it is through Reiatsu or power that all three realms are being held up.

Requirement 3: Creation began falling apart as soon as the Soul King died, and nowhere was there any mention that there was any time to try and fix this problem, just the opposite, everyone was shouting that they were going to die. And the CFYOW novel says, the one you showed, that the world will “crumble immediately”. Not “START crumbling immediately”, but crumble immediately. This is a direct statement stating immediate destruction.

Requirement 4: Reiatsu is the pressure of their level of energy, and thus, scales to their strength.

I would argue that this is grounds alone for allowing the Weakened Soul King’s stabilization feat to be legitimate.

There are more scans, proof, and arguments on the matter, but as I said earlier, I am not the one who will force himself to find them, that task should be done by a more passionate and knowledgeable member like the ones I have named above.

At the very worst though, all this would do is make the WSK’s tier Unknown, but again, this character’s tiering doesn’t affect the stronger God Tiers of the verse because they scale to different feats.

Mimihagi Stuff

This Mimihagi argument seems to ignore one crucial aspect of Mimihagi’s existence, and that being that it governs stagnation on that which it touches (This is the reason why Mimihagi wouldn’t scale to the stabilization feat because he isn’t using physical power, but hax, instead).

The reasons why Jushiro was alive all these years? It’s because Mimihagi was within him, keeping his illness at bay.

Mimihagi leaving Jushiro means that Jushiro is giving up his life so that he can succumb to this illness to allow the Soul King to be stagnated instead.

By Utikate’s life, they are referring to Mimihagi, as that is how he describes himself, saying that his life is Mimihagi.

Touching the Soul King just means that, instead of being in a state of dying, Mimihagi is forcing him to be within a state of life and death, allowing reality to not crumble away. Allowing his energy to still hold up the world.

Let me explain, in Bleach, there is explicitly described to be a state between Life and Death. It is stated that the Weakened Soul King already exists like this, and it was stated that Yhwach’s existence was made like this as well, this is why and how Yhwach was used to stabilize the worlds even after being “killed” by Ichigo in their fight, if you were wondering that.

Mimihagi isn’t “temporarily becoming the lynchpin”, nothing states this or even implies it, and in fact, the opposite is implied.

Mimihagi is explicitly stated that he is alive, that he is “Ukitake’s life”. This goes in direct contrast to the state of existence that the WSK and Yhwach are in when they are the lynchpin. They exist in such a state of being that completely goes against the idea that a “lifeforce” is what is required to stabilize the worlds.

All that is said is that Mimihagi is stabilizing the worlds in the WSK’s place.

And from what we know about his existence and his powers, the most reasonable assumption to make is to say that he is using his stagnation powers to make it so that Reio doesn’t transition to being fully dead, but maintains that state between Life and Death that he has. In other words, he is simply maintaining the already existing lynchpin, not becoming the next one.


And case and point, after Yhwach absorbed the two of them, guess what didn’t happen? The world wasn’t destroyed. And it was directly stated to be via his power that he is doing this.

You might argue that this is done because he absorbed the Soul King, who was the lynchpin already, making him the lynchpin.

But if that is the case, then why would Yhwach, after he was defeated, be “made into the lynchpin” despite him already having absorbed the WSK and Mimihagi?

The implication is clear, being “made into the lynchpin” isn’t some special circumstance that is required that allows a person to maintain all the worlds. And it has nothing to do with Lifeforce.

What being “made into the lynchpin” means is having the person’s body be thrown into the crystal seal which keeps them locked in place, forcing them to do nothing and directing their power to be the thing to hold up the worlds.

Still Silver Stuff

Are you ******* serious?

Well for one, the Still Silver is a Deus Ex Machina, not Plot Induced Stupidity. It was very clearly explained to do a specific function and it does that function. The only way for this to be PIS is if you think that Uryu is physically scaled to any of the God tiers in Bleach.

Anyway, there is a reason as to why the Still Silver works if you go throughout the arc and pay attention to the crumbs that are left throughout it.

Uryu is explicitly stated, by Yhwach himself, to have “some kind of power” that is superior to Yhwach’s power. Note, this is not physical power, as shown when Uryu gets his ass destroyed by Jugram, Yhwach’s subordinate and inferior.

Still Silver is explicitly stated to nullify Yhwach’s powers momentarily.

Uryu’s Schrift, the Anti-thesis, was stated, by a user of the Almighty, to be the only viable counter to it.

And the arrow is piercing Yhwach from behind him and is pointing either leveled with Yhwach or even downwards (which would be an impossible angle from that difference in height), despite the fact that Uryu is in front of Yhwach, as shown when Yhwach looks down and the panel focus on him, Ichigo looking to his right side, showing the Uryu is next to him, and Ichigo is shown that he is facing the front of Yhwach (Zoom in to see the white of Yhwach’s clothes under his cape). Further proving that Uryu making that shot from his positioning, doesn’t make any sense at all if he was just shooting his bow, there is only one clear way for this to make sense.

With all this information, it is clear that Uryu used the Anti-thesis to send the arrow into Yhwach’s body (Which is hax, not AP), and that the Still Silver head’s nullifying powers are what didn’t allow Yhwach to retaliate as Jugram did, and what allowed Ichigo to kill him.

Ergo, this isn’t an anti-feat.


The Real Scaling

As I mentioned a long time ago in this post, the Stabilization stuff, while I feel an argument can be made for its legitimacy, is 100% irrelevant to the important feats that the God tiers scale too.

Those being the Creation and Destruction of Bleach’s cosmology.

First off, the Creation of almost everything from the Soul King is an explicit creation feat. The fact that this wasn’t brought up at all in this CRT is genuinely baffling. Again, if you want the scans of this, bring in the members that I suggested and they will do as such.

Second off, and more importantly, Yhwach’s destruction/creation feat/statement was briefly mentioned, but the arguments against it are absurd.

Your first point, about how it is “logically impossible” is 100% an Argument from Incredulity and nothing more.

Yhwach is already stronger than both Mimihagi and the WSK. He directly states this to Mimihagi’s face, and he was casually throwing around Ichigo in their brief fight, even tanking a few of his attacks, who was explicitly stated to have reobtained his transcendent power for the purpose of killing the Soul King. And even if you want to argue that Yhwach’s Reiatsu was what allowed Ichigo to do that, that makes it a more direct showing that Almighty Yhwach is > than WSK.

Please explain how absorbing people that he is already stronger than makes him logically incapable of performing a great feat? Absorbing the strength of those you are stronger than doesn’t make you weaker than them initially or dependent on them for a significant boost in power. This is like saying, since Yhwach absorbed Jugram and Gerad’s power, that means that he should scale to their level of strength, no, not everyone is Majin Buu - just because he is absorbing another's power, does not mean that is because they are stronger than he is.

This argument you are making doesn’t make any sense. There is nothing here that even remotely suggest a limit to Yhwach’s power that would make scaling Yhwach to his Tier 3/2 statements/feats inconsistent or “logically impossible”, the only thing here that would suggest that is your own lack of belief that Yhwach could be that strong, and that is a fallacy, not an argument.

Yhwach was explicitly stated to desire to create a world without the fear of Death which was stopped due to Ichigo killing him. Essentially he would reverse what the Soul King originally did; At first, he was going to do this by letting Ichigo kill the Soul King who was stabilizing the three worlds and everything connected to them, and then in the aftermath, create his own world. But instead, Yhwach decided to “take everything from” Reio, absorbing both him and Mimihagi, preferring to fuse the worlds together with his power instead, which was said that no one besides Yhwach had the power to do such a thing (Askin stating this shows that this was Yhwach’s plan all along and he didn’t make up this shit as he went along), and we even see him using his Reiatsu (Yes, that black energy is confirmed to be Yhwach’s Reiatsu) and begin to do just that before his power is nulled by the Still Silver in the very next page for a brief moment, which Yhwach then considers inconsequential as it is only a temporary buffer that was already vanishing by the time Ichigo reached him to cut him down.

Showing that yes, the “villain trope” is what is happening here exactly.

To argue that this character’s entire goal and motivation that were meticulously planned for a thousand years, and the thing he was doing before having his power nulled for a moment, which even he found a pointless victory, wasn’t going to actually happen despite everything in the series saying as such is pure unadulterated headcanon, and I cannot believe it is being argued otherwise.

Miscellaneous Stuff

Why would a character’s power level, or them being physically fodder, mean their statements are inaccurate?

Ganju is a Shiba, a member of one of the five clans that are descendants of the five people who helped the Soul King create the world. It is very possible that he knows a bit about the Soul King and the importance of his destruction.

What even is this point?

And whether he was referring to Reio or Yhwach is irrelevant, because Yhwach's goals are for everything that Reio built to be reversed, to create his own world where Death doesn't exist. Originally he was going to have Reio's death be the catalyst of everything's destruction, and then remake his own world out of that.

Obviously, when he decides to do it himself with his own power, he would still try and destroy the same stuff. Thinking otherwise makes no sense.

Yhwach wanted to destroy everything Reio created, which yes, includes the Dangai and Garganta.

Conclusion

To wrap this up, I heavily disagree with a lot of the claims being made here, I find a majority of them to be baseless and clearly indicative of a lack of proper understanding of the source material.

I highly disapprove, and I once again implore you to allow a handful of non-staff Bleach experts into this thread for discussion as they will provide the will, arguments, and scans that I do not possess.

Thank you and goodbye.


Do not call me back here.
 
A few things:

The Garganta doesn't have an infinite amount of souls, that quote is purely poetic. We know that a finite amount of people have died since the beginning of the universe. You shouldn't put to much stock in it.

If you admit that you included the Hell scaling "Half as a meme", why did you bother going through it at all? Even if it is a non-canon movie? Is it because you just want to try anything at this point? Or just to make the post longer and thus appear more legitimate?

5D Bleach in the context of Aizen's narration is a blatant metaphor for how he is superior to humans and not legitimate in terms of Vs Debating. This was back when Bleach had no feats above even Tier 7, so even if he was 5D it wouldn't matter for scaling and it would never pass the scrutiny for an upgrade, that you chose to include it at all is disappointing and makes me question how much you believe in what you're arguing for.

Bottom line is, don't just throw everything at a wall and hope it sticks. You should remove all joke / non-serious parts of your argument if you want it to be taken as legitimate.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Okay, to just ask outright, which parts of this post of yours are serious and which aren't?

Im asking for clarification on whats the actual arguments.
Click to expand...
Universal Bleach.

Matthew_Schroeder said:
We know that a finite amount of people have died since the beginning of the universe.
Click to expand...
Not in Bleach we don't know that.

Matthew_Schroeder said:
5D Bleach in the context of Aizen's narration is a blatant metaphor for how he is superior to humans and not legitimate in terms of Vs Debating. This was back when Bleach had no feats above even Tier 7, so even if he was 5D it wouldn't matter for scaling and it would never pass the scrutiny for an upgrade, that you chose to include it at all is disappointing and makes me question how much you believe in what you're arguing for.

Bottom line is, don't just throw everything at a wall and hope it sticks. You should remove all joke / non-serious parts of your argument if you want it to be taken as legitimate.
Click to expand...
I mentioned their purpose in the post.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
So I'm going to talk about 6 different ways I believe you can scale the Bleach God Tiers. The only feat I'm not going to mention is the lifting the Quincy palace feat because that is way too subjective with the bajillion distance calcs and the various timeframes you could assume.

Gremmy's Meteor, Kenpachi, and Hikone
  • Scaling Chain: Meteor < ShiKen ~ Gerard ~ Byakuya ~ Tokinada ~ Grimmjow < Res Grimmjow (5-10x) ~ Hikone < Gentei Kaijo Released Hikone (5x) < Res Hikone (5-10x) < TS Ichigo < Almighty Yhwach < TS HoS Ichigo (5-10x) ~ SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach < TB HoS Ichigo (5-10x) < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post-Restoration TB/Inner Zangetsu Ichigo < Prime ReiO (he still scales to his creation feat).
  • Tiering: This sits the God Tiers anywhere from 3125-50000x greater than that meteor or Multi-Continental.
  • This meta is simple, meteor happens on screen you just have to calc it.
  • The biggest downside with this imo is the fact that it chooses to ignore factoring in any of the more crazy creation and destruction statements in favor of a "on screen feats or it didn't happen" approach. Which isn't inherently wrong, but it does lead to potential extreme lowball. Why, because it is facetious to claim that if it didn't happen on screen it is invalid. Kubo among other authors can't always show universal and beyond feats without ruining their narrative, so instead they use statements. The problem I further take with this is that I know on this site we scale off of statements and not feats alone, we scale off of statements for Bleach with earlier stuff. So if it's going to be a feats only deal then the entire site needs a revamp, else it's just blatant sticklering for Bleach.
The blanks are capable of slamming planets
  • https://4anime.to/anime/bleach-movie-1-memories-of-nobody (please support the official release if you can but if not here it is)
  • https://vsbattles.com/threads/problems-with-the-senna-calculation-bleach.53844/
  • Scaling Chain: Blanks (5-B) < WSK < TS Ichigo < Almighty Yhwach < TS HoS Ichigo (5-10x) ~ SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach < TB HoS Ichigo (5-10x) < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post-Restoration TB/Inner Zangetsu Ichigo < Prime ReiO (still got that creation thang on him).
  • Tiering this sits the God Tiers anywhere from 5-B all the way up to 5-B/5-A or Planetary to Large Planetary.
  • The crux of this scaling is this, the Blanks are a small portion of the Soul Cycle that get lost in Valleys of Screams, so if the Soul King is scaling vastly above stray Blanks then he should scale vastly above their 5-B feat.
  • This meta falls under the same scrutiny as the meteor meta, it just yields a bigger number because it's more impressive. The reason I think this is a better meta than the meteor meta for the God Tiers is because it more directly ties to the Soul King. The meteor just follows a chain up to Ichigo, while the Blanks provide a direct link to the Soul Cycle and therefore the Soul King.
Gremmy created outer space
  • https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/800086388086931456/gremmy1.PNG, https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/800086402364342342/gremmy2.PNG, https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/800086416922116106/gremmy3.PNG, https://official-complete.granpulse.us/manga/Bleach/0578-006.png
  • From downtown CFYOW II: "Gremmy Thoumeaux: that was the name of a boy who, barring Yhwach, was said to be the strongest of the Stern Ritter...", "through the V Schrift--The Visionary--that Yhwach had bestowed upon him, had created his flesh body by "imagining" it. He could convert what he imagined into reality, and his abilities were like a god's.", "he had even materialized a gigantic meteorite and outer space itself in the Seireitei.", and "the ability to instantaneously create outer space...".
  • Four instances where we are told that what Gremmy imagines he creates, and what he created was outer space.
  • The first counter I've seen to this: prove Gremmy created the stars there.
    • Rebuttal: Occam's Razor. As there is no direct explanation to why there are stars in the outer space Gremmy created, Occam's Razor states he created them as it is the simplest and easiest assumption to make. What we are shown is what Gremmy imagined and what Gremmy imagines he creates.
  • Second counter: They're there to look cool.
    • Rebuttal: Doesn't matter why they are there, they're still there. Isn't all visual media existing to provoke some kind of emotion while looking at it? This is not an argument valid to discredit the feat.
  • Third counter: Since Gremmy imagined it they're imaginary and not real.
    • Rebuttal: "He could convert what he imagined into REALITY..."
  • Fourth counter: Meteor is much weaker than stars in space so it's not linear and falls apart.
  • Does this scale to AP? Yes it scales to Gremmy's AP, he refers to his abilities as the "power of imagination", everything he does is a creation feat. You can't scale off the meteor and then ignore this as it is contradictory. CFYOW also exclusively talks about Gremmy's creation abilities when refering to him as the strongest, so by some measure or another even the verse recognizes that Gremmy scales to his Visionary.
  • Does Kenpachi scale? Maybe. Here we see Kenpachi tank the clones that imagined that outer space and here we have Gremmy admit that Kenpachi is greater than his imagination. Kenpachi tanked those clones whose combined AP would be relative to the outer space they created in combination with Gremmy admitting that Kenpachi's true power surpasses the limits of his imagination support Kenpachi upscaling this. However, I still understand the skepticism with Kenpachi.
  • Does anyone concretely scale above Gremmy's creation feats? Yhwach does. CFYOW II talks about how what made Gremmy the strongest was his creation feats and then also goes on to say he was still second to Yhwach. Yhwach would have had to imprison Gremmy some time prior to getting his Almighty back as younger people like Liltotto and Askin are aware of the Gremmy situation, but being that it is vague I'll go with Almighty Yhwach
  • This leaves us with at least the following scaling chain: Gremmy (4-A) < Almighty Yhwach ~ TS Ichigo (tanked an attack from Yhwach with only burns) < TS HoS Ichigo (5-10x) ~ SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach < TB HoS Ichigo (5-10x) < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post-Restoration TB/Inner Zangetsu Ichigo < Prime ReiO (hinga dinga universe created).
  • Tiering sits them at 4-A or Multi-Solar System level.
  • Again this falls under the same scrutiny as the last two. It's on screen, it happens, but it ignores the use of any statements regarding what Yhwach is capable of.
A quick timeout
So I want to address the past three metas/feats and the big issue I see with all of them. Foremost they are all on screen and happen so you can't really argue against their validity, the Memories of Nobody feat is a little less iffy than Gremmy as it's debatable how Gremmy even scales to his feats in general. In terms of most valid to least valid of the above three I'd rank them as Memories of Nobody > Meteor > Outer Space. My issue comes in when we consider that using these metas in general means you are ignoring this, which I will explain it's relevance in scaling below.

Hell Verse
  • Kubo created Hell's design so the design and structure is at least canon. He also said the Ulq vs VL Ichigo fight in the movie was closer to how he envisioned it, so you could argue the showings in the movie are canon representations of VL Ichigo.
  • https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/514958544500686898/800111642129203220/Hell_Verse_Size.PNG
  • Scaling Chain: SE Ulq ~ VL Ichigo (3-A) < Fourth Fusion Aizen < Fifth Fusion Aizen < Dangai/Mugetsu Ichigo = TS Ichigo < Almighty Yhwach < TS HoS Ichigo (5-10x) ~ SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach < TB HoS Ichigo (5-10x) < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post-Restoration TB/Inner Zangetsu Ichigo < Prime ReiO (murbles).
  • Tiering: Universal.
  • Or if you don't want to go by the statement on Hell's size being multiple universes and stick to multiple worlds we have the same chain but with 5-B to 5-A, Ichigo is concerned his Hollow would destroy the world.
  • I'm half including this for the meme, but I think it's worth noting that this movie potentially means that Kubo and the staff working on Bleach think Ichigo is universal.
Destroying the 3 Realms of Existence
  • I'm going to start by debunking points AKM made.
  • "Evidence suggests Reio stabilizes the worlds via stabilizing just the universal flow of souls, not the worlds in the Cosmology themselves."
    • Allow me to steelman the argument that SK is only stabilizing the flow of souls. Ganryu states that there are an infinite amount of souls, this is supported by Hell being multi-universal in size, further supported by the flow being universal, and even further supported by the Garganta being infinite (so it can house infinite souls). Stabilizing infinite souls (as souls possess non-zero energy) would be a High 3-A stability feat.
  • "However, I argue that this is just being taken out of context. Because Yhwach also specifies in this comment that "massive numbers of Konpaku pass through" the soul society that Reio stabilizes. Why would the flow of souls be mentioned if it wasn't at all a factor in keeping the soul society in check?"
    • You're now assuming that the mechanism that stabilizes the worlds is the flow of souls and not the other way around. We are told the Soul King stabilizes the Soul Society. He can stabilize the flow of souls too, but he is without a doubt stabilizing the entire Soul Society as per the scan you provided. I'll go into the size of the Soul Society later.
  • "The Soul King is never said to stabilize the worlds here. Instead, its outright said that the Soul King controls the universal flow of souls"
    • As per the scan you provided with Yhwach this means that the Soul King stabilizes Soul Society and controls the universal flow. And again Ganryu states there are an infinite amount of souls.
  • "You are still wrong, Reio does not sustain the flow of souls, he sustains the worlds"
    • He does both, it's not one or the other, it's both. You've provided scans saying such.
  • "The Soul King sustaining the world's is only ever said to be the case when he is a lynchpin for the world, which would imply that his role as a lynchpin specifically is a special competent for doing it, not his power."
    • Here we find out that the whatever the Soul King is at the time uses spiritual power (Reiryoku) to stabilize whatever it stabilizes. This means that yes the Soul King does use his power to stabilize the Soul Society and Universal flow of souls. This correlates to the Reio for this reason, they mention that because Yhwach had the Reio's power he was able to stabilize the worlds. <- This is the precise evidence needed for stability using power, it's stated that spiritual power is used.
  • "The destruction of the worlds brought forth by the Soul Kings death isn’t instant or immediate in any way, shape or form. The best we see and get from the crumbling of the worlds is a dimensional quake trembling through the worlds, and not all of the worlds are even effected the same way."
    • I'll go into the size of SS and whatnot later to prove that overtime doesn't matter as destroying a 4D space in a finite time is still above destroying an infinite space instantly. However, the claim made by AKM was that stabilizing the entire cosmos isn't means for it, to that I say Aura says the Garganta is infinite thus, regardless of the time it's a High 3-A feat.
  • "With the Soul Kings passive feat being invalid and unquantifiable now, Yhwach absorbing him, Mimihagi and Ichigos power's to get a strength buff from them is logistically impossibleto give him power to be 3-A or Low 2-C, which puts into question his capability of destroying the worlds without a shadow of a doubt."
    • If I steelman and say the stability feat is invalid, it doesn't matter. Yhwach still scales off of this. It doesn't matter if you can't quantify the WSK, that by no means disqualifies the various statements. All it does is call into question if the WSK is unquantifiable.
  • "Ganju's not a credible source"
    • As a member of one of the Noble Houses that partook in the original formation and outcome that resulted from forming the Bleach universe, Ganju or any Shiba for that matter would be one of the MOST credible sources to comment on the collapse of the Bleach universe. You claim we shouldn't take his word because power-wise he is fodder... last I checked a character's power level did not determine their credibility. Ganju is giving exposition as well, as in it is what the author wants to convey.
  • "Ganju was not yet made awareof Yhwach's plans to return the Bleach cosmos back into the original universe."
    • Correct he just knew the Soul King's existence was put in danger. And being the Shiba clan member he is, filled with arguably more knowledge on the Soul King aside from the Tsunayashiro clan and Ichibe, still said the Garganta would be destroyed. Implying if anything that the Soul King is stabilizing everything as per the implications of Yhwach's statement. Yhwach also didn't want to revert the universe back, he wanted to destroy and merge everything to create a new universe.
  • "The Silver Arrow"
    • Jugram says Uryu's Antithesis may be the only thing capable of countering Yhwach. Ryuken tells us that Stil Silver is Quincy kryptonite. The notion of that arrow scaling to Uryu's AP is beyond disingenous. We are told that Uryu has the hax to counter Yhwach and then he pierces Yhwach with a special arrow that had the sole purpose of negging all of Yhwach's power. This isn't something that scales to Uryu's stats.
  • "Yhwach doesn't stabilize the worlds"
  • "there needs to be actual evidence that Yhwach was actually CAPABLE of doing the feat in the first place"
    • Multiple statements and the dimensional quakes. Plus the stability feat isn't invalid like you claim it is.
  • "Almighty is hax only"
Quantifying destroying the 3 realms (you can peep my google doc on the old thread for additional info)
  • We know from Askin that Yhwach was going to destroy Hueco Mundo, Soul Society, and World of the Living.
  • We know that the three realms aren't planets and to argue such is direct admission that the Dangai is a literal pipeline, like in Dakota lol. "If they could be likened" means they cannot be liked to planets as per the if.
  • Here from CFYOW II we see the theory of general relativity is canon to the Bleach universe. Meaning that is it hypothesizes, space and time are linked in a space-time. With my google doc from the og CRT we already had evidence that the Bleach realms were space-times, but this is new and further evidence for it. Also from CFYOW II, Giriko (having bounded with the god of time) claims that time is infinite, which going by general relativity would imply that the WotL (SS is parallel to WotL) is an infinite space-time. What Giriko is telling us is that the WotL is merely an exact replica of our irl universe (which most already assumed or knew). See here for more: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cu8ywQwSxvcd9228Mpruf3OPkRbLrn4lxSX0MLYRSkg/edit?usp=sharing
  • So we know that WotL and by extension SS are at least universal space-times (as the use of infinite qualifies for universal size as per vsbw standards). We also know (see the doc for scans) that the SS and WotL are separate space-times. Destroying two universal space-times separated by a separate space-time is the definition of 2-C.
  • Aura calls the Garganta infinite (check the doc) and Ganryu as I've shown above said there are infinite souls. Even if you want to say they aren't infinite for whatever reasons, the use of infinite is grounds for universal size by VSBW standards. Those infinite souls occupying space in the Garganta. So Garganta is called infinite in size and can contain infinite souls. Two infinite statements for Garganta, it's destruction regardless of the time frame is High 3-A. However, the Garganta is a confirmed space-time as well making its destruction a Low 2-C feat even ignoring all the realm stuff.
  • To conclude Yhwach destroying the current Bleach universe and making a new one would be a Low 2-C to 2-C feat.
Final Meta Dimensional Transcendence
Which do I think is best?
Personally, I believe there exists the largest preponderance of evidence for universal Bleach. Meteor scaling is based off one scan (the meteor), Memory of Nobodies scaling is based off of one feat (planets collide), Outer space scaling is based off one scan and some statements, Hell Verse scaling is based on a more composite scaling, 4D/5D scaling is based on one fight and some databook statements, but universal scaling is based practically on 3 whole novels, numerous statements, and the narrative of the final arc. Thus why I argue universal/low-multi Bleach.

I know Warren and Imade are preparing responses as well. Lmao it apparently took me 5 hours to respond oops.
Click to expand...
So while I do agree with the Soul King being 3-A at his peak, I disagree with the evidence you're using to support that point. Chiefly the usage of soul stabilization.

Controlling souls is a hax, and we normally don't scale Hax, especially one so specific to the physical stats of a character. Also this is hell, the realm that the Soul King isn't said to do anything with. Also the idea of infinite souls directly contradicts that of the manga in that there should be no way for the quincy to be a threat that upsets the equilibrium of the three worlds of Soul Society, Hueco Mundo, and the World of the Living. You would always have infinite, and I don't think bleach has ever delved into different-sized infinities, so applying those standards seem out of place in this instance.

To further sit on the soul topic, it is not solely the Soul King that helps to stabilize the world, that is also partially the purpose of the soul reapers as seen with how one part of their job is sending souls to Soul Society and also with the instance of Mayuri expelling souls from Soul Society personally to help maintain this balance. If either the souls are out of balance or the soul king dies, Soul Society will collapse, meaning one without the other can't support Soul Society on its own. This is also partially corroborated by the Soul King's backstory, where he was throwing the order of the old world out of whack when he kept killing all the hollows that showed up.

To move onto your talk of the three realms not being planets, the image you post doesn't really seem to imply them being something more than planets. It's a metaphor that shouldn't be used as any real support for the sizes of anything due to how its very much unrelated to the size of these structures.

To move onto your point about infinite time:
Infinite time does not automatically equal infinite space. It just equals infinte time, while deeply tied to one another there are still distinct from one another so we shouldn't assume that one being a certain way automatically means the other is the same.

I will also require a bit more time to give my proposition for how I think this should all go, but I first wanted to cover some of the points in this earlier post.
 
I also entirely endorse Warren's post, I saw it prior to it being posted, so due to him dipping, treat Warren's arguments as my own. I'll respond to any criticisms to his post as if it were my own.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Not in Bleach we don't know that.
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Yes, we know. You cannot simultaneously argue time and again that "The World of the Living is our universe" and then claim that an infinite amount of people have died over a finite amount of time. An infinite amount of souls literally goes against the entire lore of Bleach and the necessity to balance the number of souls in either realm at all times. It is absurd.

Arc7Kuroi said:
I mentioned their purpose in the post.
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So the purpose is just obfuscation and an attempt to present Universal Bleach as a "Middle ground", yes? As well as to make your post longer so that it will appear more robust than it is.

Arc7Kuroi said:
We are told he does it through spiritual power.
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This literally doesn't matter if you're using your power or energy to perform a hax feat it will still be a hax feat. A mage using Soul Manipulation or Mind Manipulation or Illusions by spending his MP won't suddenly make those AP feats.
 
Of course you can have some time. There is no deadline for these threads and they've had hours to prepare.
 
So, can you put the math down here for that scaling that go up to 50k?

  • Scaling Chain: Meteor < ShiKen ~ Gerard ~ Byakuya ~ Tokinada ~ Grimmjow < Res Grimmjow (5-10x) ~ Hikone < Gentei Kaijo Released Hikone (5x) < Res Hikone (5-10x) < TS Ichigo < Almighty Yhwach < TS HoS Ichigo (5-10x) ~ SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach < TB HoS Ichigo (5-10x) < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post-Restoration TB/Inner Zangetsu Ichigo < Prime ReiO (he still scales to his creation feat).
  • Tiering: This sits the God Tiers anywhere from 3125-50000x greater than that meteor or Multi-Continental.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
So the purpose is just obfuscation and an attempt to present Universal Bleach as a "Middle ground", yes? As well as to make your post longer so that it will appear more robust than it is.
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I mean I said I was going to do this prior to doing this... And if you read the post, I never present it as a middle ground, out of the metas I showed it's the second highest.

Matthew_Schroeder said:
Yes, we know. You cannot simultaneously argue time and again that "The World of the Living is our universe" and then claim that an infinite amount of people have died over a finite amount of time. An infinite amount of souls literally goes against the entire lore of Bleach and the necessity to balance the number of souls in either realm at all times. It is absurd.
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I can argue it's size is our universe but infinite souls exist. Also, I'd like to mention that I primarily use infinite to abide by the VSBW standards of infinite justifying universal. There are separate levels of infinity, not all infinities are equal, so mathematically you can balance infinity.

Matthew_Schroeder said:
This literally doesn't matter if you're using your power or energy to perform a hax feat it will still be a hax feat. A mage using Soul Manipulation or Mind Manipulation or Illusions by spending his MP won't suddenly make those AP feats.
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He is using spiritual power to stabilize the worlds... Spiritual powers that directly correlate to stats... he's not using MP or something he's using his literal power. Like it's a literal requirement for validating stability feats.
 
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@Zaratthustra; he's stacking multipliers in the scaling chain. Using the high-end of the multipliers you get:

10 x 5 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 50000

But it is irrelevant. The topic of meteor scaling or Gremmy scaling should not even be touched until the main issue of this thread is resolved.
 
Warren_Valion said:
You all don’t seem to realize the nonsense that is a VS Battle Wiki CRT. When 5-15 guys are dogpiling you, it automatically a losing battle of attrition. A legitimate debate is only possible when there is a comparably equal amount of competent members arguing back and forth on a topic.

Otherwise, this just a ******* circlejerk.
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Pray tell me, who are these 15 guys dogpilling the poor fans here? Where did you conjure them from? Because what we have here is a handful of dedicated staff members + a regular member who took the time to make a long, comprehensive thread explaining their issues with the upgrades point by point, and then in the opening post itself they directly notified the opposition allowing them to comment. There is no dogpilling, this is one of the most transparent Bleach Threads I have ever seen, where Staff is trying their best to keep it peaceful and respectful.

But this response is as immature as they can get, and its frankly stunning that this is the first thing you argue for when the only reason the upgrades went through in the first place was due to literal dogpilling on a major thread where no moderation was notified transparently ahead of time and people pushed the thread to a record number of posts in 24 hours all to get it approved as the small opposition was exhausted.

I don't care about the rest of your post but this is a major problem with Warren's argument. It starts out with a personal attack against all of the opposition as an attempt to demoralize them before actually arguing for points. And then it ends with ANOTHER personal attack where he insinuates that everyone who disagrees with Bleach is just too stupid to understand the source material and that the only way this discussion can happen is by allowing "Bleach Experts" into the thread, as if everyone who doesn't believe a certain way about a Shounen Anime is an ignorant fool who needs to be enlightened by the proper scholars and academics of Tite Kuboism.

Warren_Valion said:
To wrap this up, I heavily disagree with a lot of the claims being made here, I find a majority of them to be baseless and clearly indicative of a lack of proper understanding of the source material.

I highly disapprove, and I once again implore you to allow a handful of non-staff Bleach experts into this thread for discussion as they will provide the will, arguments, and scans that I do not possess.
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Again, I don't care about the rest of your post and at least you had actual well-formulated arguments to defend your position, but what was the necessity with both opening and ending the post with direct attacks on the character and intentions of the people that are supporting the downgrade. If not to immediately poison the well and insinuate bad faith and malicious intent on their actions. This was uncalled for.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Pray tell me, who are these 15 guys dogpilling the poor fans here? Where did you conjure them from? Because what we have here is a handful of dedicated staff members + a regular member who took the time to make a long, comprehensive thread explaining their issues with the upgrades point by point, and then in the opening post itself they directly notified the opposition allowing them to comment. There is no dogpilling, this is one of the most transparent Bleach Threads I have ever seen, where Staff is trying their best to keep it peaceful and respectful.

But this response is as immature as they can get, and its frankly stunning that this is the first thing you argue for when the only reason the upgrades went through in the first place was due to literal dogpilling on a major thread where no moderation was notified transparently ahead of time and people pushed the thread to a record number of posts in 24 hours all to get it approved as the small opposition was exhausted.

I don't care about the rest of your post but this is a major problem with Warren's argument. It starts out with a personal attack against all of the opposition as an attempt to demoralize them before actually arguing for points. And then it ends with ANOTHER personal attack where he insinuates that everyone who disagrees with Bleach is just too stupid to understand the source material and that the only way this discussion can happen is by allowing "Bleach Experts" into the thread, as if everyone who doesn't believe a certain way about a Shounen Anime is an ignorant fool who needs to be enlightened by the proper scholars and academics of Tite Kuboism.



Again, I don't care about the rest of your post and at least you had actual well-formulated arguments to defend your position, but what was the necessity with both opening and ending the post with direct attacks on the character and intentions of the people that are supporting the downgrade. If not to immediately poison the well and insinuate bad faith and malicious intent on their actions. This was uncalled for.
Click to expand...
When Warren made this it was prior to you guys giving me Imade so that's where the hostility in the top comes from lol. If you don't care about his post can I take it as a concession to the post via refusal to comment on it?
 
Guys, once again, lets stop. Arc and Warren already gave their counter arguments to this.

Now it is the oppositions turn to be given time to formulate a response, and that cant happen if theres a spam of comments arguing little points here.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
All of his points are being addressed to, but you cannot expect constructive criticism and meaningful discussion if people keep posting all the time demanding an answer as soon as possible.
Click to expand...
I'm not demanding immediate reponse, I'm just asking if you are ignoring Warren's post entirely or if you plan on responding that's all. You made it out like you were disregarding his post.
 
Damage already told Sigurd to give any responses he has to Arc or the others. We have enough knowledgeable members here to give counter arguments.
 
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