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Bleach Downgrades (Staff Only)

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AKM sama

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Refer to the title. As it was mentioned earlier, this thread will be tackling into the recent 3-A / Low 2-C upgrades that Bleach received here not too long ago. After taking a deeper look into things for myself, and receiving some help from others, I'm here to explain why I'm disagreeing with these upgrades and why Bleach should be downgraded back.

And yes, this will be done as a staff thread. The upgrade thread went on for 12 pages, barely over 24 hours, with minimal amount of staff members to take a look into it themselves. Since the upgrades were massive and highly controversial for one of the most popular verses that effects the credibility of the wiki, it required a large amount of staff approval before getting accepted, something that didn't happen. Due to the nature of these threads that attract a lot of comments that turn them chaotic and unmanageable, this will be done here in the staff forum to keep the thread under control. Obviously, @Arc7Kuroi will be allowed to post in the thread to provide responses to things he disagrees with to keep this fair since he brought these upgrades here in the first place. Same goes for @ProfessorKukui4Life who argued on that thread.

Now let's begin.

Reasons for the Upgrades

To get everyone up to speed, lets sum up the reasons for the upgrades to begin with before I get into why I think they should be downgraded. You can look to this sandbox made here as well and the upgrade thread I linked above. Long-story short, the reasons for current Low 2-C Bleach are these:
  • Reio / The Soul King creating the Bleach Cosmology, using the powers of the Almighty, by splitting the original universe into the worlds known to exist in the verse:
    • The Soul Society
    • The World of the Living
    • Hueco Mundo
    • Dangai, the world that exists between the Soul Society and World of the Living
    • Garganta, a reishi void that encompasses all the worlds in Bleach
  • Reio / The Soul King in his weakened state maintaining the Bleach Cosmology as the lynchpin for it
  • Yhwach wanting to reverse what the Soul King did to the Bleach Cosmology by destroying all of the worlds and returning everything back to the old universe
Thats the gist of the new ratings for them. Now lets go, in-depth, as to why I disagree with these points justifying the upgrades.

First Issue: Soul Kings Passive Feat Is Gone

To start out, the passive feat of the Soul King for "maintaining the Bleach Cosmology" is invalid. And for a number of different reasons.

Reason 1: Stability Feat Standards Being Revised

Our newly revised standards for stability / sustenance feats that were created recently throws this part of the upgrade for Bleach out the window. Keeping it short and to the point, stability feats are no longer assumed by default to scale to a character's statistics (something that is common sense and should have been the case from the start but got overlooked up until now). With our new standards, you now need far more evidence to get stability feats accepted, which effects the Soul King and the rest of Bleach's new upgrades in the process as they don't fit the bill.

When looking into this, there's evidence suggesting that the Soul King stabilizing the Bleach Cosmology is being taken out of context and doesn't scale to either 3-A or Low 2-C at all (the latter I'll be getting to later).

Reason 2: The Soul King & The Soul Cycle

Evidence suggests Reio stabilizes the worlds via stabilizing just the universal flow of souls, not the worlds in the Cosmology themselves.

Counter Argument: "No, Its been proven that Reio stabilizes the worlds themselves, not the flow of souls."


Yes, I've been made aware of this from a previous upgrade thread, made here, that got the Soul King to 4-A. It uses this statement from Yhwach:

latest



That upgrade thread used this scan to prove Reio stabilizes the soul society and the other worlds itself based on Yhwach saying so here, which opened the doors to the upgrades accepted now. However, I argue that this is just being taken out of context. Because Yhwach also specifies in this comment that "massive numbers of Konpaku pass through" the soul society that Reio stabilizes. Why would the flow of souls be mentioned if it wasn't at all a factor in keeping the soul society in check? The first part of the statement is being taken to say Reio stabilizes the soul society directly, but its ignoring the flow of souls also being specified, which offers another way of interpreting the statement. The fact that Yhwach specifies "massive amounts of Konpaku pass through" indicates that Reio is linked to the flow of souls, which in turn, could mean he keeps the soul society stabilized by stabilizing the flow of souls. And this interpretation is supported by 2 strong evidences.

Evidence 1: Cant Fear Your Own World Novel

This page here is from Chapter 6 in the officially English translated CFYOW Bleach novel. Read right from the beginning of the page:

https://cdn.***************.com/file/AnimeRleases/bleachnovel_1.2_6_11.jpg


The Soul King is never said to stabilize the worlds here. Instead, its outright said that the Soul King controls the universal flow of souls as the world's lynchpin, giving more support to the interpretation that he doesn't stabilize the actual worlds, but the flow of souls, which sustain the worlds. Then we get to this next part:

Evidence 2: The Threat of the Quincies

This will be where most of the support comes in for the Soul King stabilizing the soul cycle as I saw this mentioned elsewhere here. And that is the threat the Quincies posed to the Bleach cosmology. These scans will explain the details:

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Quincies and Shinigami differed from each other in how they disposed of hollows. Shinigami are considered balancers who cleanse hollows and send them to the Soul Society, while Quincies eradicate them completely. As a result, the Quincies removed those souls from the soul cycle of sending souls between the Soul Society and Living World. By doing that, they would unbalance the amount of souls between the two worlds, which as explained, would cause the collapse of the universe as a result. Being a threat to the worlds in this manner was the reason why Shinigami actively sought to prevent Quincies from disrupting the balance in the first place, even going as far as to kill majority of them.

The Soul King stabilizing the entire Cosmology conflicts with this. The Quincies are, narratively and consistently, treated as threats to the Bleach cosmology in-universe. Why would the Quincies be regarded as such a threat to the worlds if the Soul King directly stabilizes these said worlds? No matter what the Quincies would do to the soul cycle, Reio stabilizing the worlds would prevent them from getting collapsed. Even more so, Shinigami's would not have been required to dispose of Quincies if the Soul King sustaining the worlds was actually the case. The only way this doesn't conflict with this plot-point is if the Soul King only sustains the flow of souls.

Counter Argument: "You are still wrong, Reio does not sustain the flow of souls, he sustains the worlds"

Lets say this is true then. Even with the evidence given, lets say its wrong and the Soul King does indeed sustain the worlds directly, not the flow of souls.

There's more reasons as to why the Soul King's stability feat is invalid.

Reason 3: The Soul King's Stability Done With Alternate Methods

Evidence suggests the Soul King stabilizes the worlds via magical components and/or other unknown factors that are independent of his statistics.

Evidence 1: Soul King Is a Lynchpin

This point doesn't use much besides the scan I already posted. The Soul King sustaining the world's is only ever said to be the case when he is a lynchpin for the world, which would imply that his role as a lynchpin specifically is a special competent for doing it, not his power.

This will be elaborated on later, but what also helps suggest this point is Yhwach. He had the Soul King absorbed, and despite dying twice to Ichigo, the worlds in the Bleach cosmology were not at all getting destroyed. Yhwach sustaining the worlds is only ever made the case when he becomes the new lynchpin to replace Reio.

Evidence 2: Soul King's Life Force

Read these scans to see the upcoming details.

Shown here, Ichigo slices apart the Soul King, which starts the crumbling of the worlds the very moment Reio is killed:

image0.jpg


image1.jpg


image2.jpg


To counteract the crumbling of the worlds, Ukitake unleashes from inside of him Mimihagi, the right arm of the Soul King who he has now become:

image3.jpg


image4.jpg


image5.jpg


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By unleashing Mimihagi, Ukitake stops the crumbling of the worlds:

image0.jpg


Mimhagi does this by physically latching itself onto Reio's sliced-apart corpse, replacing him as the Soul King to keep the worlds stabilized. However, this is outright said to only last as long as Ukitake's life lasts:

image1.jpg


image2.jpg


Mimihagi was able to become a temporary soul king by physically latching itself onto Reio's corpse, stopping the crumbling of the worlds, and it’s outright said that the stabilization of the worlds would only last as long as Ukitake’s lifespan does since Ukitake and Mimihagi became the same entity. This implies that stabilizing the worlds with life force is another possibility to consider here for this. Even moreso, Mimihagi is the right arm of the Soul King, so by physically attaching itself to the one it was once apart of, it temporarily becoming a lynchpin makes sense, even if not done with the soul kings life force.

Counter-Argument: "This is still wrong, Reio stabilizes the worlds with nothing else but his power"

For this claim, if this is supposed to be the case, precise evidence is needed for this. As outlined in our new standards for stability feats, it would need to be specifically proved that the power of the Soul King is what's being used as the method for sustaining the cosmology.

Requirement 2: Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.

On top of that, this still wouldn't change anything about this downgrade. Even if everything presented so far is irrelevant, and Reio does stabilize the worlds with actual power, it still isn’t quantifiable to keep this upgrade.

Reason 4: The Soul King Stabilizing The Cosmology Isn't 3-A or Low 2-C

Outlined in our new standards for stabilization feats, one of the requirements is to prove that a character's stabilization is equal to the destructive output released by the structure's destruction. So if for example, for stabilization to be 3-A or Low 2-C, the character's sustenance would need to be able to rival the destructive output of a universe being completely destroyed instantly, or immediately. And that's not the case here for Bleach.

The destruction of the worlds brought forth by the Soul Kings death isn’t instant or immediate in any way, shape or form. The best we see and get from the crumbling of the worlds is a dimensional quake trembling through the worlds, and not all of the worlds are even effected the same way. The Soul society violently shakes, Hueco Mundo shakes to a lesser extent, and the world of the living gets a mild long lasting quake where nothing gets destroyed at all.

image3.jpg


0616-002.png


Counter-argument: "Multiple characters make a point of saying without the Soul King the entire bleach universe would cease to be."

I keep seeing this get passed around, so I'm addressing it here. We seem to be at the point where claims of "the universe will cease to exist!" or anything similar as an end result of what happens is automatically enough to keep 3-A or Low 2-C ratings on the table. It isn't.

We know that "the universe would cease to be" is a thing as the end result of the Soul King no longer being alive to keep that from happening. But that being the conclusion doesn't at all matter here when looking at just how the destruction unfolds. The result of what happens in the end is completely irrelevant against the fact that the destruction itself isn't instant or immediate destruction. The destruction starts instantly / immediately, but it doesn't happen instantly / immediately, as you can see above. The destruction spans over an extensively long timeframe, to the point where nothing dimensionally even begins to deteriorate. And as mentioned, the destruction isn't even treated the same across all of the effected worlds.

The destruction happening here isn't 3-A destruction, let alone Low 2-C levels of it. So the Soul King wouldn't need output on either levels to stop the worlds from crumbling, even if he stabilizes the cosmology with power and not an alternate method. Now to get to the 2nd issue with this upgrade.

Second Issue: Yhwach Destroying The Worlds

I said earlier that Soul King's feat being invalidated would, overall, effect the entire upgrade. I'll be going over the reasons now.

Reason 1: Yhwach's lack of power

This one is simple enough to start on. With the Soul Kings passive feat being invalid and unquantifiable now, Yhwach absorbing him, Mimihagi and Ichigos power's to get a strength buff from them is logistically impossible to give him power to be 3-A or Low 2-C, which puts into question his capability of destroying the worlds without a shadow of a doubt.

Reason 2: Yhwach "Destroying" the Garganta

Small pivot here, but its part of the feat, so I'm addressing it. According to this statement here made by Ganju, the Garganta would be destroyed if they lost in the end:

0627-002.png



This comment from Ganju is the only direct statement we get here about the Garganta being effected with everything else. There's 2 issues with this claim of Yhwach destroying the Garganta, as I mentioned in the beginning of this thread. And they both involve Ganju's statement here.

Problem 1: Ganju's NOT a credible source here

I'm laying it out here. Why in the world are we taking the words of someone who, last I checked, is an ordinary fodder in his own verse as literal for this upgrade? Especially for destruction that's as large as this? This isn't as if Ganju is well experienced into the subject of the worlds crumbling as a result of the Soul Kings death. We've heard statements about the destruction of the worlds from several people much more experienced and credible into the topic than Ganju. And not once do we get another statement from them about the Garganta being effected, aside from Ganju jumping to those conclusions. This is pretty akin to an ordinary person thinking someone far stronger than they are could do things they cant actually do. AKA, this looks more like overhyping being done.

And that's not the worst of this issue.

Problem 2: Ganju's Statement Supposedly Being About Yhwach

Even if Ganju is somehow a credible person to be speaking on this subject, this statement still isn't speaking about Yhwach's plans of returning the Bleach cosmos back to the original universe. This statement is referring to the death of the Soul King causing it to be destroyed.

Go to these four chapters yourself for more clarification. When he made this comment about the Garganta's destruction, Ganju was not yet made aware of Yhwach's plans to return the Bleach cosmos back into the original universe. He was speaking about the Soul King's death being the cause of that since he came to the Soul King's palace with Ichigo to stop Yhwach from killing him in the first place. And throughout the span of the 4 chapters I linked, he is involved in Yoruichi's ambush to use the Garganta and sneak their way back into Reio's position in the palace, which again, refers back to their plan of stopping Reio's death. Ichigo, Ganju and the others were not yet made aware of Yhwach absorbing the Soul King into him, nor were they aware of his true motives. Which means, Ganju did not have Yhwach's plan in mind when making this statement. So what would his comment be referring to?

Simple. It's referring to the death of the Soul King causing it. Without this, there is no known evidence of Yhwach being able to destroy the Garganta. Moving on.

Reason 3: The Silver Arrow Penetrating Yhwach

Counter-argument: "Yhwach being hit with Silver Arrow is Plot Induced Stupidity"

Yeah, but no, PIS isn’t an excuse here. At least in this manner it isn't. We've heard time and time again about Yhwach not seeing Uryu and the arrow with the Almighty's precog is PIS, and that is indeed true.

But Attack Potency and Durability are a different story. The arrow physically penetrated Yhwach at point blank range, which would be impossible to happen if he were legitimately 3-A or Low 2-C:

image0.jpg



To add insult to injury, even WITH the currently accepted upgrades, Uryu isn’t accepted as being either 3-A or Low 2-C with Silver Arrow, so we acknowledge that the arrow isn't that strong, making it a legitimate anti feat for Yhwach to be penetrated by it. Which further puts his upgrade into question.

Not only that, but Plot Induced Stupidity also can’t be used here as an argument when this feat is Yhwaches only 3-A / Low 2-C feat for the upgrade and has no prior feat on this scale to substantiate it. In order or something to be Plot Induced Stupidity, a character needs prior feats on the proposed level or near it to make it PIS. Like a character consistently known as a Multiversal being getting harmed by planetary attacks in one instance, or if a mountain leveler is knocked out by a city block level opponent. Those would be PIS. But if a character does not possess feats on higher scales above the lower tier they are displayed in, an argument for that character suffering from PIS cant be substantiated. In Yhwach's case, we know the silver arrow is PIS against the Almighty since seeing all futures should have allowed him to see Uryu's attack easily. However, in the sense of a tier upgrade, Yhwach has no previous feats outside of this one near this level to argue PIS, so the counter argument here falls apart. This leads me into another smaller point to address.

Reason 4: Yhwach Doesn't Stabilize The Worlds

I said this before, but I'll go into a bit more detail here. Yhwach doesn’t stabilize the worlds, despite having the Soul King absorbed, as he was not yet made into a lynchpin or put into the same position as Reio was to stabilize the worlds. This is proven by the fact that despite dying twice to Ichigo, the dimensional quaking across the worlds didn’t happen either time Yhwach was killed. This is in contrast to Mimihagi and the Soul King's deaths effecting the worlds. The dimensional quaking started immediately after both Reio, the lynchpin, died and after Mimihagi, who attached itself to Reio, was absorbed by Yhwach. If Yhwach was legitiamtely doing the same thing as the former 2, this would also have been the case for him, and Ichigo would have been more cautious against killing the person who's supposedly keeping all of the world's in check. But neither is the case for what happened.

Adding to that, the new stabilization standards would also invalidate this for Yhwach, the same way it does for Reio.

Reason 5: Yhwach Destroying The Worlds Isnt 3-A or Low 2-C Destruction

We get to the biggest issue against Yhwach's upgrade out of them all. And that's the timeframe of the feat. Yhwach was destroying the worlds overtime, as previous scans show above. This feat was not immediate, let alone instant, to substantiate the feat using 3-A to Low 2-C power all in one instance. It is mostly built on guesstimates of what Yhwach was planning to do versus what he was actually doing here.

Counter-argument: "This is a common villian trope, Yhwach was stopped by Ichigo and Uryu before he could destroy the worlds, it's not a reason to invalidate the feat"

No, “Villain Trope” isn’t a counter argument for this like some want to believe here. Because even WITH that argument being the case, there needs to be actual evidence that Yhwach was actually CAPABLE of doing the feat in the first place, which we aren’t given here. When it comes to the idea of characters "being stopped" before their feats are done, it's one thing to claim that when the character is clearly capable of performing what they intend to do. But when it's not taken into account that the character ultimately has failed to show and prove that they are able to complete their feats, beyond any reasonable doubt, that excuse isn't flying to support an upgrade this large that has little to stand on.

Since I saw this brought up in the upgrade thread for Bleach for comparison, I'll be addressing the false equivalency here. An example of a legitimate case of villain tropes being acceptable to keep a tier is with Zamasu from Dragon Ball Super. Zamasu is a false equivalence to this since, unlike the case with Yhwach, Zamasu can be considered 2-C because Zamasu has actual evidence of being capable of becoming 2-C. He already became one with the space-time of Future Trunks's timeline, and was also appearing in Goku's present timeline. That proves Zamasu was able to breech into a different timeline after already becoming the entirety of another timeline. Breeching the timelines proves, beyond a reasonable doubt, that its factually in Zamasu's capabilities to become one with more than one timeline, hence his eventual 2-C rating. Zen'o destroying Zamasu before he finished doesn't change that fact that Zamasu was capable of it and was actually doing the feat.

Yhwach, on the other hand, doesn't have that kind of support to sustain the "villain trope" argument. With Reio's stability feat no longer amounting to anything, Yhwach absorbing his, Mimihagi's and Ichigo's power shows he doesnt get 3-A to Low 2-C power with amps. Yhwach's own stability feat no longer exists due to the same thing, and the fact that his death did not cause the worlds to begin collapsing again like Reio and Mimihagi's did. And on top of all of this, Yhwach is never portrayed during his last moments to actually breech more than what was shown to us, the seireitei of the Soul Society. No evidence that Yhwach was, in those moments, effecting the dimensions actually exists. Because of all of this, there's no guarantee beyond reasonable doubts that Yhwach was producing 3-A or Low 2-C power in that instance. We have no real clue on what was going to happen or how the destruction would unfold.

The only leg that this feat has to stand up on to be considered that high at this point is relying on statements of Yhwach destroying the worlds and Yhwach himself being sure of performing the feat. These are guesstimates. And I'd like to just remind everyone of how considerably high this upgrade actually is given the fact that the very next tier these characters land in without the upgrade is High 6-A.

High 6-A?

Yes, High 6-A's the tier these characters would be at without the upgrade. 5-B and 5-A are no longer a thing either.

5-B / 5-A Bleach God Tiers were only a thing to begin with because we initially went with the assertion that the Soul King's weakened state stabilized the individual planets across the Living World, Soul Society, and Hueco Mundo to give that rating. But recently, we abandoned that notion for the weakened Soul King and now go with him stabilizing the actual universes in the Cosmology themselves. Now that the new stability standards no longer accepts the Soul King's stability feat, 5-B and 5-A would also no longer be possible under these circumstances. This leaves High 6-A as the only tier left for the god tiers to start from.

On this note, I'll leave it at this. Would this realistically be enough to keep an upgrade at this level? Are we seriously going to allow guesstimates and statements as viable enough solid evidences to sustain an upgrade that has a verse climb a whopping FIFTEEN tiers all at once?

End Results:

If you kept up with what I've said here, this is why I advocate for the downgrades. Little is left for the upgrade to be supported and accepted under these circumstances.

The only part of this, from what I see, that might remain unchanged is the Prime version of the Soul King keeping 3-A / Low 2-C through the Almighty, and only with the Almighty. And even that's fishy since the official translations of the CFYOW Bleach novel that details the Soul King's creation of the cosmology is not yet going to be available for a couple of months. Ideally, we should wait until official information like that is available to use before applying such high level upgrades.

Other than that, these are the end results should the downgrade get passed:

  • Reio could possibly keep 3-A and Low 2-C, but strictly with the Almighty's hax, his statistics get downgraded to High 6-A.
  • Reio could possibly be put at unknown or just plainly High 6-A should we decide to wait for the official translation of the upcoming volume in the CFYOW novel, which I think is more preferable.
  • Ichigo, Aizen, Orihimes Shields, Yhwach and Weakened Reio get downgraded all together to High 6-A.

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:
 
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To ask since I likely missed it last time, but what ever happened to the movie feat/statement with the Tier 5 cannon?
The Low 5-B part of the movie feat is still canon, so the God Tiers should start from a baseline of Low 5-B based on Memories of Nobody and not High 6-A.

I’ll address the OP in a fat second lol just woke up.
 
. In Yhwach's case, we know the silver arrow is PIS against the Almighty since seeing all futures should have allowed him to see Uryu's attack easily. However, in the sense of a tier upgrade, Yhwach has no previous feats outside of this one near this level to argue PIS, so the counter argument here falls apart. This leads me into another smaller point to address.
Also minor point here, but the Arrow isn't PIS against the Almighty. It explicitly nullified his powers and Aizen's hypnosis allowed him to alter what future Yhwach could see. Its a Deus Ex Machina mind you, but not PIS in the same sense than Superman one shotting a 1-A character is.
 
This in my opinion would only scale to the Prime Soul King if anything. Evidence would need to be required to prove Reio is still above that feat in his weakened state.
CFYOW states Yhwach had the full power of the Reio. Plus in the movie they were going to use the Sokyoku fueled by a couple hundred Shinigami iirc to blow up the dimension that had all those blanks. Those same blanks that performed that feat.

Before I go in depth in my defense. Stil Silver is Yhwach’s kryptonite + Jugram states that Uryu’s ability is the perfect counter to Yhwach. So (while we don’t know cuz the ending was quick) it’s implied Uryu landed the hit thru unconventional means.
 
CFYOW states Yhwach had the full power of the Reio. Plus in the movie they were going to use the Sokyoku fueled by a couple hundred Shinigami iirc to blow up the dimension that had all those blanks. Those same blanks that performed that feat.
Yeah but the problem is that Reio's power in his weakened state isnt consistently shown to be so extremely superior to non-god tiers other than Aizen.

Btw, I particularly dont mind Low 5-B or High 6-A, im just pointing out evidence would be needed to say Reios weakened form is still above ordinary beings since, you know, hes a corpse. And Prime Reio obviously scales for obvious reasons.
 
People who are non-staff that weren't given the OK to speak here like Arc and I was need to cease replying.

If you disagree with the downgrades, give your concerns to Arc and have him post them here in his counter arguments.
 
This is staff only, regular members can't talk here.
It's okay, he was responding with the intention of clearing some doubt so I won't delete his comment. But it will be appreciated if people send their arguments to Arc and Kukui if they have something to say instead of spamming this thread.
 
Full power of the Reio implies prime Reio not weakened Reio via Occam’s Razor.

So like the Low 5-B scaling would go:

SK/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach (the one likely referred to) ~ TS HoS Ichigo < 5-10x with TB HoS < Powers Absorbed Yhwach ~ Aizen ~ Post Restored Bankai Ichigo.

I’m going to create a really long post detailing the 3 best ways to scale the God Tiers imo and then let staff decide and hash it out for which is better. Kinda not feeling the 1 v staff rn. However, High 6-A is woefully inaccurate when we have numerous statements that Yhwach would destroy the three realms. And the “on screen feats or it didn’t happen argument” is quite disingenuous, if that’s going to be grandstanded then this site prolly needs a site wide revision for consistency.
 
I’m going to create a really long post detailing the 3 best ways to scale the God Tiers imo and then let staff decide and hash it out for which is better. Kinda not feeling the 1 v staff rn. However, High 6-A is woefully inaccurate when we have numerous statements that Yhwach would destroy the three realms. And the “on screen feats or it didn’t happen argument” is quite disingenuous, if that’s going to be grandstanded then this site prolly needs a site wide revision for consistency.
Yeah, from what I remember of earlier stuff some form of Tier 5 can be justified if nothing else.
 
However, High 6-A is woefully inaccurate when we have numerous statements that Yhwach would destroy the three realms. And the “on screen feats or it didn’t happen argument” is quite disingenuous, if that’s going to be grandstanded then this site prolly needs a site wide revision for consistency.
I will wait for your counter argument, but I will address this point from the OP.

When you are shooting for a drastically huge tier upgrade and don't have prior supporting feats to give it support (the stability feats are nulled now), its going to at the very absolute least be extremely questionable and not quite as ironclad as you want to think it is.
 
I'm in agreement with the majority of the OP so far. I don't have a whole lot more to add at this stage but I'll see what other arguments and counter-arguments come up.
 
Giving him that much more work is obviously setting him up to fail. I mean how blatant does this get?

Either allow the other Bleach supporters in, or make it a 1v1.
I get where AKM/others are coming from in terms of limiting the thread, but I agree with this point. Just making it Arc seems unfair, especially when there's multiple staff members who can comment in favor of Professor.
 
Just making it Arc seems unfair, especially when there multiple staff members who can comment in favor of Professor.
And there are multiple staff members who can comment in favor of Arc if Arc's arguments are good. This isn't a boxing ring where 1 person is trying to fight others. This is just a platform to make arguments and the better argument will have people agreeing with it. Either way, from what I have seen, @Duedate8898 is also a Bleach supporter who seems unbiased and rational so I wouldn't mind if he pitches in.
 
I get where AKM/others are coming from in terms of limiting the thread, but I agree with this point. Just making it Arc seems unfair, especially when there's multiple staff members who can comment in favor of Professor.
I dont know where this idea of staff immediately agreeing with the small points I made here is coming from.

But yeah we should at least stop responding here and wait for Arc to give his counter arguments.
 
I don't care for the tiering of Bleach even if I like the series.

I can see Akm's points and can agree with them but I don't agree with letting just Arc to debate/argument for Bleach. He's just one person versus ten+. Even if he were to organize his thoughts after consulting other supporters of the series, it will still be hard because it's not just 1 vs 1 debates or one vs a few staff members.

Either let more bleach supporters to debate or why even bother with this if it will be a majority vs one. This is the reverse situation of the Upgrade Thread where it was tens of supporters vs several staff members. Just looking here I think there are already more staff than they were in the upgrade thread.

So, I propose several other supporters to be chosen from the non-staff to debate as well. You can choose who you would think will no cause trouble and actually know their 'verse' and the like.
 
Well, having more staff is kinda the required solution to this since the opposite problem was present last time.

That said, why aren't Warren and TOAA allowed to comment here? They're supposed to be staff arent they? And AKM gave permission for DueDate to come as well.
 
I dont know where this idea of staff immediately agreeing with the small points I made here is coming from.
Because multiple already have. Its not against you as a note, but there's already multiple staff members against the upgrade in the thread against more or less one person who's shown support in keeping it. Its just not that fair. Either no one comments and its just you two or we let more people in; at least that's my view of it.
 
If we are suggesting other members like Duedate, then I'd recommend letting Imade comment. I haven't seen a person more knowledgeable on Bleach than Imade.
 
I agree more regular users should be allowed to participate, and instead of staff choosing who gets to participate on their behalf, maybe the regular users can pick some of their own to help argue against the upgrade?
 
I also want to nominate Sigurd. So I guess if I'm allowed to bring with me some help, I'd greatly appreciate it if Sigurd and Imade are allowed to comment. That's all.
 
I can see Akm's points and can agree with them but I don't agree with letting just Arc to debate/argument for Bleach. He's just one person versus ten+.
Let me just clarify this now. There is no one against "ten" here. Arc isn't debating with all the staff present here. Arc has also got TOAA, Duedate, Warren, and Imade to make points, all these people are Bleach fans, and agreed with the upgrade. Damage and DemonGodMitch also agreed with it and they are here too.

Meanwhile, Kukui and Matt are the only ones here who didn't agree. As for me, I said whatever I had to say in the OP because I couldn't take part in the last thread and won't be available for the most part after an hour or so.

As you can see, most staff members here are neutral and Arc has more members to help him out than Kukui. I don't see how that is unfair.
 
AKM Sama is very true, I very much enjoy Bleach

For now, I will wait to give my final opinion until I see the counter arguments because what is being said in the OP seems very solid, but since I don't know much about Bleach scaling as a whole and am primarily neutral on how this turns out in the grand scheme of things, I want to see what the other side has to say before agreeing to downgrade the verse from 3-A to Low 2-C
 
Let me just clarify this now. There is no one against "ten" here. Arc isn't debating with all the staff present here. Arc has also got TOAA, Duedate, Warren, and Imade to make points, all these people are Bleach fans, and agreed with the upgrade. Damage and DemonGodMitch also agreed with it and they are here too.

Meanwhile, Kukui and Matt are the only ones here who didn't agree. As for me, I said whatever I had to say in the OP because I couldn't take part in the last thread and won't be available for the most part after an hour or so.

As you can see, most staff members here are neutral and Arc has more members to help him out than Kukui. I don't see how that is unfair.
Before I said my part there was just one blue name aka Arc then the rest were agreed to be on. At the same time Warren is not that present.

My bad if I didn't explain better but I wanted to mean that non-staff members who are the supporters.
 
also you can’t just ignore the staff who FRA’d this before Arc even got an argument in, so it ain’t just three people.
And staff can agree with Arc again later if he makes better points. Also, you and the others discussing in the General Bleach Discussion Thread keep bringing up stuff to make this seem like "users vs staff" yet you ignore that the 20 people who gave kudos to the OP are mostly regular members. I'd appreciate if people can drop their hostile act and if you could stop interrupting this thread. Thank you.
 
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