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Bleach Distance Calculation Issue

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Damage3245

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This thread concerns the distance between the Seireitei in the Soul Society, and the Soul King’s palace. Two distant locations that have no solid distance statement for how far apart they are but do have some statements / feats for travel between them.

Since this is a controversial topic, I would like to remind everyone that this thread is primarily for Calc Group Members and other knowledgeable members of staff. If anybody has any relevant information concerning this topic, please share it with me on my message wall.

Statements

We are given a statement from one of the Zero Division members that if Ichigo uses a “regular Shunpo” from the Soul King’s palace that he should arrive at Soul Society in a week, and this statement is given after he provides a lengthy set of spiral stairs for Ichigo to travel down.

Ichigo declares that if it takes a week using regular Shunpo then if he "hurries like hell" it will only take him half a day. This is later proven true:


Essentially meaning it took Ichigo 9 hours, 15 minutes to complete his journey.

Issues

The primary issue is that we don't have a stated speed for Ichigo's journey. Our requirements under the calc stacking page say this:

Using a reliable stated timeframe and reliably stated speed something travels during that timeframe one can calculate the distance travelled. Said distance can then usually be used for calculations. (Take heed that paths don't need to be straight and that speed reliably has to be constant)

We don't have a reliably stated speed to work with, even if we do have a reliable timeframe. Some people have tried to use assumptions like "Ichigo must be lightning speed, because he fought lightning-using characters after this and reacted to lightning-speed attacks", but this has issues as it is an entirely separate feat and trying to use this assume speed is not allowed as per the Calc Stacking page guidelines here:

Hiding calculations is the practice of trying to avoid calculating a feat in order to be able to use the result in another calculation. In other words it is the practice of trying to fool people into not noticing that calc stacking is being used.

This usually occurs if a feat is quantified per a rule of thumb instead of precisely calculated. A typical example would be a character dodging a bullet from a short distance being ranked as "Supersonic" and then using that ranking to calculate the speed of another character, whose speed one can compare to the former in some feat.

While it is acceptable to rank a character by such a self-evident feat without a calculation, one should keep in mind that the unwritten calculation is only skipped due to being trivial, but is still the justification for the ranking. Hence calc stacking will still be an issue for such feats.

While Ichigo's feats are fine to rate him by, it is not something that can be used for this calc.

Possible Solutions

So what can we do with minimal assumptions from the statements we have? Well, Ichigo near the beginning of his journey appears to break the sound barrier as he hurries down there. So as a baseline we could assume supersonic speed for Ichigo's travel, and use the 9 hours, 15 minutes timeframe for a distance of: 11421900 m = 11421.9 km

We could also go off of Tenjiro's statement that a week's travel time with Shunpo would get you there. Shunpo is a technique that is frequently used for FTE travel over short distances. Unfortunately no exact speed is stated for it, or for Ichigo's speed with it. Assuming baseline FTE speed (which is 34.3 m/s on the Speed page), for 1 week's duration, that would get a distance of: 20744640 m = 20744.64 km. Remember this is also likely factoring in the staircase into it as well instead of just being a straight line downwards.

USklaverei has created his own calculation for Ichigo's descent which involves using a size calculation for the Seireitei, calculating the speed Ichigo used to cross it, and then calculating Ichigo's acceleration (assuming he accelerated constantly the entire journey). This produces a total distance of: 1686000000 m = 1686000 km. My biggest concerns with this calculation is that it involves calc stacking, and it relies on stacking on another distance calculation for the Seireitei's size which I have some objections to.

Another option - my preferred one - is to simply not calculate the distance at all, and scale the verse without it like we're currently doing. The results we get from being conservative are extremely low and not reflective of Ichigo's true speed. The latter results procured from calc stacking predictably lead to inflated results.

I'd like the opinions from other Calc Group Members as to whether these possible solutions are reasonable, or if there are alternative suggestions.
 
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Damage3245

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@Hasch; Mach 1 wouldn't really have any correlation to "real life high jumps." If that was the basis you wanted to use, you'd be better off using human freefall speed for the 1 week timeframe.
 
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I think we should do this:

Ichigo's vi = 343m/s at least since he broke the sound barrier.

His robes can ignore friction from the barriers that Yhwach can't even break, meaning air resistance is likely negligible. The purpose of the robes ignoring any friction at all is to keep Ichigo from being slowed down on his dissent. Plus Ichigo is also accelerating himself, which further supports that in combination with his own force and robes, air resistance can be ignored.

His acceleration then is at least GM/r^2, where r = (x + 6.371E6) because the acceleration when Ichigo is at the surface (x = 0) is 9.8m/s^2 and x is the distance from the surface, M is the mass of Soul Society = mass of Earth, and G is the gravitational constant. I use this for acceleration because Ichigo is far enough away where it shouldn't be treated as constant.

The time frame is 9.25 hours = 33300 seconds.

x is the distance Ichigo travelled.

x = vit + .5at^2 -> x = 343(33300) + .5[(6.674E-11)(5.972E24)/(x + 6.371E6)^2](33300)^2 -> x = 6.06376E7 meters

This has no calc stacking and considers a safe value for Ichigo's acceleration given what we know (his acceleration could be far higher but shouldn't be much lower if it was any lower).

Edit: Changes to the speed calcs from USklav with this value are;
  • Mimihagi: .067c (Sub-Rel+)
  • Yhwach's death beam: .067c (Sub-Rel+)
  • Yhwach's Auswahlen: .135c (Rel)
  • Lille Plummets: .02c (Sub-Rel)
  • Liltotto dodge's Auswahlen: .101c (Rel)
 
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EDIT: I don't know how much of an impact it would have, but the robes don't ignore friction - they just protect the wearer from it.
Well if the robes protect Ichigo from the friction, then it's safe to say the friction isn't impeding Ichigo. Plus Ichigo would be accelerating himself, so technically our forces are: gravity, air friction, Ichigo. And with the robes I argued that it's likely that the acceleration of Ichigo at least cancels out the acceleration of air friction, coupled with the robes protect from friction.
 

Damage3245

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@Arc7Kuroi; Can you explain how you got the 6.06376E7 meters result?

I don't see how you get to that figure from that formula.
 

Damage3245

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I'm getting the same result of 6.06376×10^7 meters myself in my calculator. If another CGM approves of the method, then it seems viable.
 
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@Damage3245 I can update the sandbox with the characters who are affected by this calc and those that should scale and then drop it in a CRT to make sure there's no issues if you'd like. I'll also make a blog post for this distance calc so it can be added to the Bleach page.
 

Damage3245

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Well the first thing that needs to happen is for the distance calculation to be put into a blog is it can be officially evaluated.

Then the other calcs need to be updated / put into a blog and official evaluated. I have an issue with the Auswahlen one which I'll need to double-check.

Then after those steps are done we can examine the ratings and make a CRT for it.
 
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Well the first thing that needs to happen is for the distance calculation to be put into a blog is it can be officially evaluated.

Then the other calcs need to be updated / put into a blog and official evaluated. I have an issue with the Auswahlen one which I'll need to double-check.

Then after those steps are done we can examine the ratings and make a CRT for it.
Aight I'll throw it in a blog then with the other updated calcs.
 
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Damage3245

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I've left a comment about it on the thread - but at the moment the speed calculation that I think needs changing on there is the Auswahlen one (with the Liltotto one being impacted as a result).

It should just be 5 seconds for the beam going down, like the others, not 2.5 seconds.
 

Damage3245

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@USklaverei; when the CRT is created, that can be something we can discuss again.

Right now I think it would be unnecessary to use the doubled distance, and arbitrary to use 3 seconds instead of 5 seconds.
 
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But this is what you think, but in the previous discussion it was taken into account that several staff members agreed with this.
 

Damage3245

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3 seconds was agreed as the middle ground between 5 3 and 1.
As I said, we can discuss this on the CRT.

Frankly I don't even know why 1 seconds is used in any of the calculations. That's such a highball it would be like trying to argue for 30 seconds for a lowball.
 
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As I said, we can discuss this on the CRT.

Frankly I don't even know why 1 seconds is used in any of the calculations. That's such a highball it would be like trying to argue for 30 seconds for a lowball.
Well my blog post is using the 3 second timeframe since that was agreed upon, if it's to be changed you're right that the discussion shall be saved for a CRT.
 

Damage3245

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Okay. I will post the thread soon. I'll leave this thread open in case any other Calc Group Members want to chime in.
 
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Sweet merciful lord why do you people keep trying to redo this over and over
Because it keeps getting removed lol and without it our only speed feat in Bleach is a chapter 100ish Orihime calc and a Gin statement. The speed feat well is quite dry.
 

DMUA

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it keeps getting removed

This doesn't happen for literally any other verse

if the feat's actually valid you shouldn't need 209103981309180392109832 different measurements for the same exact things happening
 
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This doesn't happen for literally any other verse

if the feat's actually valid you shouldn't need 209103981309180392109832 different measurements for the same exact things happening
Lol I don't know what to tell you, I don't run the show round here.
 

DMUA

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If there was someone running this show I'd punch them in the face

Frankly HST calcs just sound like an expression of the definition of insanity, one calc and maybe another recalc is never good enough it always has to be several thousands of blogs and discussions over the course of years with no real gain in information between each one
 

DMUA

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I wouldn't even care if I wasn't pinged on this thread

I get it's a helpful feature but I swear that thing tears a piece of my soul off and drags it to whatever hellhole people need help at supposedly
 

DontTalkDT

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I think we should do this:

Ichigo's vi = 343m/s at least since he broke the sound barrier.

His robes can ignore friction from the barriers that Yhwach can't even break, meaning air resistance is likely negligible. The purpose of the robes ignoring any friction at all is to keep Ichigo from being slowed down on his dissent. Plus Ichigo is also accelerating himself, which further supports that in combination with his own force and robes, air resistance can be ignored.

His acceleration then is at least GM/r^2, where r = (x + 6.371E6) because the acceleration when Ichigo is at the surface (x = 0) is 9.8m/s^2 and x is the distance from the surface, M is the mass of Soul Society = mass of Earth, and G is the gravitational constant. I use this for acceleration because Ichigo is far enough away where it shouldn't be treated as constant.

The time frame is 9.25 hours = 33300 seconds.

x is the distance Ichigo travelled.

x = vit + .5at^2 -> x = 343(33300) + .5[(6.674E-11)(5.972E24)/(x + 6.371E6)^2](33300)^2 -> x = 6.06376E7 meters

This has no calc stacking and considers a safe value for Ichigo's acceleration given what we know (his acceleration could be far higher but shouldn't be much lower if it was any lower).

Edit: Changes to the speed calcs from USklav with this value are;
  • Mimihagi: .067c (Sub-Rel+)
  • Yhwach's death beam: .067c (Sub-Rel+)
  • Yhwach's Auswahlen: .135c (Rel)
  • Lille Plummets: .02c (Sub-Rel)
  • Liltotto dodge's Auswahlen: .101c (Rel)
Pretty sure we had that proposal before....
For short, I don't think Ichigo completely and utterly ignores air resistance, so constant acceleration doesn't work, as terminal velocity still applies.
 

Damage3245

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@DontTalkDT: I've been told by another calc group member that the best method listed in the OP is the first one, where Supersonic speed is assumed for the duration of the travel (9 hours 15 minutes), as it requires no calc stacking and the least amount of assumptions involved.
 
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The Mach 1 for 9:15 is definitely not the best option when Ichigo could fall for a week with terminal velocity and give a greater distance.
 

DontTalkDT

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@DontTalkDT: I've been told by another calc group member that the best method listed in the OP is the first one, where Supersonic speed is assumed for the duration of the travel (9 hours 15 minutes), as it requires no calc stacking and the least amount of assumptions involved.
That has the problem that it assumes Ichigo couldn't have changed his speed during a 9 hour travel. That we don't assume such things is one of the reasons calc stacking exists.
Personally I'm still most on board with using terminal velocity for the entire distance.
 

Damage3245

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That has the problem that it assumes Ichigo couldn't have changed his speed during a 9 hour travel. That we don't assume such things is one of the reasons calc stacking exists.
Personally I'm still most on board with using terminal velocity for the entire distance.

Do you mean 55.5556 m/s over the timeframe of 1 week, for a distance of 33600.0269 kilometers?
 

Damage3245

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Free falling, diving, are u serious?
Personally I'm leaning towards the Supersonic method more - but I'm willing to go along with DT's suggestion.

Also, at this point there has been comments from several non-Calc Group Members but to get us back on track I'm going to have to ask that all regular members stop commenting unless they have something meaningful to add.

Comments like "Yeah, na" or "Are u serious?" do not add to the discussion.
 
There is no logical way the methods you nor dt suggested makes sense at all context wise. It completely goes against these pages as to how fast we was moving towards the end.

A confirmed lightning timer couldn’t react to his speed at all upon his descent.

He literally states he was moving too fast for him to control his landing and appeared behind them in the same instance he crashed and they don’t even realize it.

How is Mach 1 or Terminal velocity the logical conclusion here. These two scans are the most important to give an idea of how fast he was moving.
 

Damage3245

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A confirmed lightning timer couldn’t react to his speed at all upon his descent.

He literally states he was moving too fast for him to control his landing and appeared behind them in the same instance he crashed and they don’t even realize it.

I don't know how you can't understand that this is irrelevant. We've been over the issues on calc stacking for this many times.

Scaling him by these feats is one thing, trying to use them in a calc is another.

EDIT: As I said, non-Calc Group Members should stop responding and bringing up old rejected topics.
 
I don't know how you can't understand that this is irrelevant. We've been over the issues on calc stacking for this many times.

Scaling him by these feats is one thing, trying to use them in a calc is another.

EDIT: As I said, non-Calc Group Members should stop responding and bringing up old rejected topics.
Not a single post in this thread explains how USklaveei calc is calc stacking. Literally not a single person addressed it.
 

Damage3245

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@Arc7Kuroi; DontTalkDT came into the thread with some objections.

@Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye; we have guidelines on the Calc Stacking page for when distances derived from calculations can be used in other calculations. USklaverei's wouldn't apply, as per this:

Using a reliable stated timeframe and reliably stated speed something travels during that timeframe one can calculate the distance travelled. Said distance can then usually be used for calculations. (Take heed that paths don't need to be straight and that speed reliably has to be constant)
 

Damage3245

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I gave two pieces of evidence for why he does. Can you give me any reasoning besides “I don’t think he ignores it”?
Well, the statement from the manga isn't that it ignores the air resistance. It's just that it protects the user from it via being extremely durable.
 
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I guess Candice > Royal Robes > Ichigo > Candice since she obliterates the robes that Ichigo needs to protect him from the friction. It’s clearly not protecting him because he would suffer damage from the friction.
 
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Well, the statement from the manga isn't that it ignores the air resistance. It's just that it protects the user from it via being extremely durable.
The statement from the manga is that it protects Ichigo from the friction of the barriers. So I reckoned that the friction from the barriers > friction from air. You agreed with it too lol which is why my calc got accepted...
 
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DontTalkDT

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It protects from friction, doesn't make friction cease existing. If it did it would never flutter in the wind or anything like that.
Heck, if it completely negated Ichigo's entire friction he would not be able to, like, stop moving. Ever. He would just slide along infinitely slippy surfaces the whole time.
The evidence for the idea of complete negation of air resistance just doesn't exist.
 
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The evidence for the idea of complete negation of air resistance just doesn't exist.
So my argument wasn't just predicated on the robes protecting from friction. I also said that Ichigo would be accelerating himself with his reiatsu along with gravity. So I said friction protecting robes + force of Ichigo's reiatsu can cancel out air resistance.
 

DontTalkDT

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No. It has the exact same problems as all the prior version, just that instead of using "speed" as constant value or "acceleration" as constant value, you are now using "force" as constant value.
 

Damage3245

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@DemonGodMitchAubin; What do you think about DontTalkDT's suggestion about using terminal velocity over the 1 week timeframe?

If Arc7's method is too flawed to use, then this might be the next best thing we have to work with.
 

DemonGodMitchAubin

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Don'tTalkDT's suggestion is fine, once again tho, this calc has extremely varying results no matter how you look at it and pretty much no answer is correct really since we scale this Ichigo to Massively FTL, so using any speed besides that is kinda hiding an outlier and calc stacking

But eh, I'm not that strong stanced on it
 

Damage3245

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Okay, thank you. I'll whip up a calc blog based on DT's suggestion.
 
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No. It has the exact same problems as all the prior version, just that instead of using "speed" as constant value or "acceleration" as constant value, you are now using "force" as constant value.
No I'm not treating force as a constant value. It's varying with acceleration. Which varies with distance. In fact in both of my methods I account for a varying force (and therefore a varying acceleration) as distance changes. So I'm confused what calc you're referring to. Speed was never constant in my calc, acceleration was never constant in my calc, and then if acceleration isn't constant force can't be constant lol.

Here's my methods: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Arc7Kuroi/Reiokyu_Distance_Calcs_Revised

I'm low key convinced you didn't read my calc, I make it crystal clear that my acceleration found (and by extension force) is dependent on x, and the only way I can think that you'd say otherwise is if you didn't read it. Quite literally none of my own Reiokyu distance calculations ever assumed anything to be constant. What's arguably worse is that I know Damage has seen my calc because he has commented on it, and yet he didn't correct DT's incorrect assessment that I kept force constant.
 
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Damage3245

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@DontTalkDT; can you take another look at Arc7's calculation and comment out the specific issues?

EDIT: I've also created the blog post for freefall method here, which has been evaluated.

The speed calcs would still be Sub-Relativistic+, just a little lower.
 
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Damage3245

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@Hasch; I deleted your previous post because at this point the topic should be left up to the Calc Group Members, and Arc7 because his method is one that we're discussing.
 

Damage3245

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@Hasch; Feel free to make your own calc for it.

Leave this thread for the Calc Group Members.
 

Damage3245

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Alxhemist is correct. I said you could make your own calc, not that you could create a copy of this thread. Now please, let us calc group members resolve this topic, and then the CRT for it will be reopened.
 
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I do want to add that I treated the density of air as constant throughout the whole journey (opposed to using dPressure/dr = -rho*g) because Ichigo is able to breath normally throughout the whole trip so I figured it safe to say he's flying through breathable atmosphere the whole time. Since, I could see someone at face value having a problem with a constant air density.
 
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EDIT: I've also created the blog post for freefall method here, which has been evaluated.

The speed calcs would still be Sub-Relativistic+, just a little lower.
Well I doubt @DontTalkDT is going to ever respond to my calc (much less even read it) after he incorrectly asserted I kept force constant.

Regarding your freefall calc what's the rationale behind not using the 480km/h associated with streamlining oneself, as Ichigo was streamlined. Considering Ichigo wouldn't just be freefalling I think using the streamlined velocity would be more accurate for your calc.
 

Damage3245

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Ichigo hasn't done anything to minimize body drag and streamline himself further.

Both Mitch and DT have accepted the current high end of the calc.

So I think that it is safe to use 48720 KM as the minimum distance for the Soul King palace to Seireitei distance. It's not really that far off from the figures you achieved with your version of the calc.

Once the speed calcs use this figure, the CRT for applying them can be re-opened.
 
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Ichigo hasn't done anything to minimize body drag and streamline himself further.

Both Mitch and DT have accepted the current high end of the calc.

So I think that it is safe to use 48720 KM as the minimum distance for the Soul King palace to Seireitei distance. It's not really that far off from the figures you achieved with your version of the calc.

Once the speed calcs use this figure, the CRT for applying them can be re-opened.
Yeah I'm fine with using free fall for the sake of getting these over with quicker.

Albeit Ichigo wouldn't be just letting himself fall, he'd be trying to accelerate himself further which is why I think we should use the 480 km/h streamlined value. As it's more than fair to say Ichigo would be going faster than the maximum free fall speed in this case.

After this gets settled I can update the sandbox with those affected by those calcs.
 

Damage3245

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I believe that the 290 km/h figure would still be a suitable mid end figure between the values given for freefall speed and that we should stick with that. And just like we're sticking with the mid end value for the timeframes involved, I think it would also be fine to stick with the mid end for the speed.

Thank you for offering to update the sandbox - although who exactly is affected by the calcs if something we'll have to discuss on the CRT.
 
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I believe that the 290 km/h figure would still be a suitable mid end figure between the values given for freefall speed and that we should stick with that. And just like we're sticking with the mid end value for the timeframes involved, I think it would also be fine to stick with the mid end for the speed.

Thank you for offering to update the sandbox - although who exactly is affected by the calcs if something we'll have to discuss on the CRT.
Agreed, I've got no further qualms then.
 
why don't we make a travel speed calculation from these panels to ichigo. when rukia is about to hit the ground, ichigo saves rukia, For the distance traveled by ichigo, we need to find the height of las noches. The height of las noches has been found in the calculation in this link ( height 56.41 km ) : https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:USklaverei/Bleach_-_Lanza_del_Relampago

link of panels is like this respectively :

1. Panel : https://i.hizliresim.com/4Yvxdm.jpg

2. Panel : https://i.hizliresim.com/re5Trs.jpg

3. Panel : https://i.hizliresim.com/z21LZi.jpg
 
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