Black Clover: Lightspeed Downgrade

[TimmyTurnero]

The reason why patri didn't dodge is because the spell is connected to him, so when Gauche reflected it, he had no way to dodge it. Here we can see that the spell is connected to patri even after being reflected.

But we weren’t shown this when Gauche reflects it, we explicitly see that the attack was disconnected from Patri and its clearly stated on panel that he couldn’t dodge it because it’s lightspeed.

After Patri gets hit by his own spell he says "i couldnt risk hurting you" which means that patri could have done something about it but he didnt want to hurt Gauche.

This is speculation and he doesn’t do anything to the spell, the spell didn’t hit Gauche because he reflected it, and the power didnt change because Patri was one shotted.

Also Gauche reflecting the ray of divine punishment is currently calced at 0.22c and Patri is capable of blitzing this gauche easily.

Which makes no sense. The feat is either an outlier or PIS. The scene itself is claiming he can react to light speed point blank range, something that he casually gets blitzed by according to you.
It’s narratively impossible for him to move his arms relative to a speed his brain can’t even perceive. This is just PIS.

I believe the reason why Yami has a hard time tagging Patri is because Yami is a melee fighter while Patri is a long-range fighter, so when Yami tries to close the distance, all Patri has to do is run away using his travel speed ability to keep his distance from Yami. Dark magic is also stated to be extremely slow, which makes it almost impossible for Yami to tag patri from long range. Despite Patri having all those advantages Yami still managed to tag him and Raia and also keep up with him in cqc.

This just makes no sense, if he’s apparently twice the speed of light then he would have 0 problem attacking him at close range.
And the only times Yami actually manages to tag them is when they’re off guard.

I agree with the op btw

 

[Xinsignia1]

Why would Julius reduce his own magic to begin with? He doesn't use physical attacks or damage attacks, but simply spells that paralyze the target in time. He could be 6-A and he would pick up anything without damaging it

Julius stated he can't tone his spells down, and pretty much implied its much easier to kill his targets. So having his magical power reduced is to ensure he won't kill his target he's trying to capture, considering the default application of time-magic is deterioration

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Julius stated he can't tone his spells down, and pretty much implied its much easier to kill his targets. So having his magical power reduced is to ensure he won't kill his target he's trying to capture, considering the default application of time-magic is deterioration

"Implied"
Assumptions
Julius claims that he is slower than light, without mentioning anything about "I'm slower because I'm holding back". He just states in a direct and general way.

Besides, his problem was because of the range and the amount of people, not because he could not control his own magic.

 

[Xinsignia1]

So if you're not attacking you're immobile?

If you aren't releasing any magic power, you're just not moving??

Not exactly sure what you're asking here.

 

[Xinsignia1]

Again, Julius doesn't need to nerf himself at all if he's just flying around trying to use time magic to capture Patry. The only time Julius would need to nerf his magic is when he fires an attack that can deal damage, since he doesn't want to kill Patry. That does not translate to "oh I'm going to intentionally slow myself down so I physically cannot keep up with this opponent and thus jeprodize the safety of my country". None of what you say answers why Julius wouldn't have just blitzed and used his chronostasis to capture Patry off rip if he was so much faster. It's not consistent with Julius's character to be that stupid.

That's not how it works though. When you amplify your magical power, everything is amplified, you don't just turn it off. That's like Yuno or Asta flickering between base form and spirit dive/black form. And using less magical power not only reduces your physical performance but also the potency of spells. Julius wanted to keep Patry alive, not just because it's William's body, but because he needed more intel on the stones since he felt there was something sinister happening. Moreover, the chronostasis orbs appear to be multi-function since they not only freeze things, but also ages them. Considering Julius has expressed the challenge of capturing far slower opponents, it's possible his orbs contain both freezing and aging qualities simultaneously (hence why its easier to kill)

 

[KingTempest]

he ad ca no n

 

[Xinsignia1]

"Implied"
Assumptions
Julius claims that he is slower than light, without mentioning anything about "I'm slower because I'm holding back". He just states in a direct and general way.

.
Asta stated that devil union would lose to base Ichika, despite the fact partial devil union was matched with Black warrior Ichika yojutsu in terms of skill , even Yami even stated that his precog wasn't on the level of Julius when he was fighting Dante. I don't think we should take every praise as gospel.

Besides, his problem was because of the range and the amount of people, not because he could not control his own magic.

The instance I was referring to was when Julius and the Magic knights went to apprehend Gueldre Poizot who was ousted for being a traitor. Julius implied he was going to kill him since he "can't tone his magic down" and was glad that the other magic knights were they to apprehend him.

​

 

[KingTempest]

bro what the ****

 

[Arnoldstone18]

.
Asta stated that devil union would lose to base Ichika, despite the fact partial devil union was matched with Black warrior Ichika yojutsu in terms of skill ,

​

Zetten Base Ichika wouldve still been able to do considerable damage to Devil Union as shown in our scaling btw.

---

Anyway can we close this? I think the grace period has ended

 

[Xinsignia1]

Zetten Base Ichika wouldve still been able to do considerable damage to Devil Union as shown in our scaling btw.

---

Anyway can we close this? I think the grace period has ended

Yeah, that's a pretty good point actually (thought it would be less damage) Nevertheless, i'm fine with this being closed too if others are okay.
I honestly just wanted clarify that holding back MP reduces performance, that's all ( I was never arguing for mftl btw)

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Brother hear me out, Julius can nerf himself when attacking, and then stop nerfing himself when he’s not attacking. I can grant you that all stats have to be nerfed instead of just one, and it still doesn’t matter.

 

[Blallooo]

agree with the op

 

[Worthless]

send a single one

Did you actually check this link or not? Lol

Anyway since I'm bored I'll states my reasons as to why I don't agree with your post.

First Gauche statement.
Gauche "can't even see it" so does that make his statement a reliable? The only reason he said it moves at the speed of light is because it's light magic, he doesn't really know , he has no idea if it's slower or faster than the normal light magic, in short his statement is unreliable.

As for yami lol idk why nobody mentions this fact but he and patry already explained the reason why he could block a light magic and it's because he combined dark magic with his muscles+ki thus making his body move faster than his dark magic could move, in other words the speed of his body could move (Combat speed) and the speed of his dark magic could move (Attack speed) is not the same.

It's literally for that exact reason as to why he could block ls at close distances lol.

Aa for the rest of your arguments me and shadow have the same argument

 

[Worthless]

I kinda agree for the most part but im not sure about these.

correct me if im wrong but the reason for why they accepted is based on the statments saying they lightspeed not that they come from a natural source like actual IRL light. so im not sure how it being able to go faster makes this inconsistent, it would just mean that the story establishes that characters can amp the speed of an ability with an already stated speed.

see my point above

see my point above

See my point above.

these arguments only work on the assumption that the speed is considered lightspeed solely because it's light

This ^ i remember a lot of people saying that light magic is not natural thus it's not LS and i always answered with how tf doesthat even matter if it's natural or not? When it's speed is stated to be moving at light speed lol

 

[TimmyTurnero]

First Gauche statement.
Gauche "can't even see it" so does that make his statement a reliable? The only reason he said it moves at the speed of light is because it's light magic, he doesn't really know , he has no idea if it's slower or faster than the normal light magic, in short his statement is unreliable.

You’re arguing as if he’s sime sentiment character just lying for no reason. He’s just a plot device used to rely information from the author and if it’s not convient for him to lie to push a narrative then its just outright wrong to assume he’s lying. This statement matches the one made by the caster anyways.

As for yami lol idk why nobody mentions this fact but he and patry already explained the reason why he could block a light magic and it's because he combined dark magic with his muscles+ki thus making his body move faster than his dark magic could move, in other words the speed of his body could move (Combat speed) and the speed of his dark magic could move (Attack speed) is not the same.

His dark magic is noted to be especially slow and Yami got blitz before he could even draw his sword so I don’t see your point.

 

[Worthless]

You’re arguing as if he’s sime sentiment character just lying for no reason. He’s just a plot device used to rely information from the author and if it’s not convient for him to lie to push a narrative then its just outright wrong to assume he’s lying. This statement matches the one made by the caster anyways.

Uh no matter what headcanon explanations you've got there you can't ignore the fact that his statement is just base on assumptions and not by a facts, so my argument still stand higher than yours.

His dark magic is noted to be especially slow and Yami got blitz before he could even draw his sword so I don’t see your point.

His Guard is not on as shown by his reaction, he didn't expect Raia to also use light magic so I don't see your point either by mentioning that scene Specially when we already seen him blocked and countered a someone just as fast as Raia at short distance.

 

[Epsilon_R]

His dark magic is noted to be especially slow and Yami got blitz before he could even draw his sword so I don’t see your point.

Ok now let's not make things out of thin air.

Dark Magic is slow but Yami uses in it ways that doesn't make it slow, like condensing it into his katana, even Patry says this right after the slow part of his statement

And no he wasn't blitzed by no one moving at lightspeed, best case you can make is Raia but as said countless times, he lowered his guard.

 

[Epsilon_R]

He considers the speed of light magic remarkable and faster than he is.

What???
Yami never said that, it was Julius
And because it moves faster than you, you suddenly can't block or at least react to it? Julius said it himself, it may be the fastest magic it doesn't mean it can't be blocked so I get that he can have FTL travel speed but why does Yami have to be Rel in every aspect of speed possible ?

If he was 12000 times faster than it, even if it was just combat speed, it will go against the narrative itself and his own words.

12000? I'm talking about Yami's 2c combat speed feat. Pre-Timeskip Yami is obviously not scaling to 12000c

So I still agree with the downgrade, I'm not sure who thought making them MFTL+ was a good idea to begin with or remotely accurate.

Again, we're talking about Pre-Timeskip stuff here, no one is that high at this point of the series. And I'm pretty sure the MFTL multipliers will be brought up in another crt.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Uh no matter what headcanon explanations you've got there you can't ignore the fact that his statement is just base on assumptions and not by a facts, so my argument still stand higher than yours.

? Headcanon? What HC? Your entire argument is centralized around the unsupported belief that his statement is a lie which isn't supported anywhere. The caster of the spell and mirror dude states it's light speed. It's your job to disprove the validity of the statement because it's already proven true hear.

His Guard is not on as shown by his reaction, he didn't expect Raia to also use light magic so I don't see your point either by mentioning that scene Specially when we already seen him blocked and countered a someone just as fast as Raia at short distance.

When Yami seen all the other users appear he immediately reached for his blade to strike them all down. He's on guard and ready to kill, yet Raia could travel several dozen meters before he let off an reaction let alone drew his sword. He's never reacted to anyone moving lightspeed, that's just false

Ok now let's not make things out of thin air.

I didn't make anything up, his dark magic is directly stated to be slow.

Dark Magic is slow but Yami uses in it ways that doesn't make it slow, like condensing it into his katana, even Patry says this right after the slow part of his statement

Patry never claims his style of using it is any faster than basic uses, while him attacking normally should be faster, any spells casted or projectiles thrown are not fast at all. Not this this is important to the argument at hand.

And no he wasn't blitzed by no one moving at lightspeed, best case you can make is Raia but as said countless times, he lowered his guard.

There's only two forms of spells confirmed lightspeed in this fight. The transportation move and the ultimate attack used by Patry. No one ever reacts to the movement spell and the ultimate attack is considered impossible to dodge and claimed to be his fastest technique,which is light speed.

 

[Worthless]

? Headcanon? What HC? Your entire argument is centralized around the unsupported belief that his statement is a lie which isn't supported anywhere. The caster of the spell and mirror dude states it's light speed. It's your job to disprove the validity of the statement because it's already proven true hear.

You are just so wrong Patry nowhere said that it's speed is just LS, and Gauche LS statement comes from the fact that since it's light magic it should be light speed right? Making his statement unreliable

When Yami seen all the other users appear he immediately reached for his blade to strike them all down. He's on guard and ready to kill, yet Raia could travel several dozen meters before he let off an reaction let alone drew his sword. He's never reacted to anyone moving lightspeed, that's just false.

@KingTempest depend your own shit man cus I don't think this guy knows wwut he is talking

 

[Worthless]

I meannn since it's light magic he immediately assume it's (just) moving at lsss

 

[TimmyTurnero]

M

@KingTempest depend your own shit man cus I don't think this guy knows wwut he is talking

No need no be rude.

https://cdn.hxmanga.com/file/majekayoo/black-clover/chapter-51-third-eye/4.jpg

https://cdn.hxmanga.com/file/majekayoo/black-clover/chapter-51-third-eye/5.jpg
You can choose to ignore it if you want.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Also no, his overall speed is slower.

And I don't see how Patry saying "Speed you'll never avoid" (Avoid implying dodging/moving out of the way) contradicts Yami being able to at least react to it or something

I didn't make anything up, his dark magic is directly stated to be slow.

Patry never claims his style of using it is any faster than basic uses

"That's why you used darkness to cloak your weapons and created a fighting style that uses Reinforcement magic to compensate"

No one ever reacts to the movement spell

Yami did. That's the whole reason he had his speed calc to begin with

and the ultimate attack is considered impossible to dodge and claimed to be his fastest technique, which is light speed.

This has nothing to do with what I said, you know.
Why bring this up when I was talking about how Raia supposedly blitzing Yami is false?
And again, it was claimed to be his greatest magic, not his fastest.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

You are just so wrong Patry nowhere said that it's speed is just LS

Iirc this is what's said, I'll have to recheck the chapter.

, and Gauche LS statement comes from the fact that since it's light magic

Baseless assumption, where is this stated or implied? He states the attack was lightspeed because it's light speed. The statement is completetly fine until contradicted by anything in the source material. So I'll ask you this, where is this contradicted.

it should be light speed right? Making his statement unreliable

He doesn't state this, he confirms the attack is light speed. He never questions it or suggests it could be, the statement directly confirms its LS. The fact that you believe that a plot device implemented by the author (Gauche) that is relaying information to us viewers is incorrect despite him lying having no importance to the narrative is astonishing to me. He's literally being used to give his a direct number of the speed of this attack. The only reason this doesn't work for you is because you're so stuck on the belief that his normal are light speed despite there being statement or implications of such. You're quite literally stuck on headcanon.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

"That's why you used darkness to cloak your weapons and created a fighting style that uses Reinforcement magic to compensate"

Once again, this only applies to his basic combat abilities. You even said it yourself, this has nothing to due with any of his projectiles or anything. This isn't important so it doesn't matter.

Yami did. That's the whole reason he had his speed calc to begin with

Yami doesn't, send the calc where he supposedly does.

This has nothing to do with what I said, you know.

It's relavent in the topic of him being comparable to light speed attacks.

Why bring this up when I was talking about how Raia supposedly blitzing Yami is false?

Because it has relevance

And again, it was claimed to be his greatest magic, not his fastest.

Yami can react and dodge all his magic spells, this attack is stated to be impossible to dodge. It's his fastest spell, no arguing against that.
And don't act as if I never addressed your argument, I left a statement regarding it.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Yami, a ki user, who also have instinctive reaction, would be off guard against a enemy stading in front of him

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Yami, a ki user, who also have instinctive reaction, would be off guard against a enemy stading in front of him

He used ki to spot them before they even appeared .

 

[Epsilon_R]

He used ki to spot them before they even appeared .

Just because you have ki doesn't mean you can't get caught off guard. Heck, he got caught off guard like 3 times right after this

 

[Epsilon_R]

Yami doesn't, send the calc where he supposedly does.

It's relavent in the topic of him being comparable to light speed attacks.

Because it has relevance

It doesn't have a single relevance to what I said. I'm not even talking about his combat speed, just his reaction speed

Yami can react and dodge all his magic spells, this attack is stated to be impossible to dodge. It's his fastest spell, no arguing against that.

Give me a single instance where Yami dodged light magic. I'll wait.

And don't act as if I never addressed your argument, I left a statement regarding it.

??? I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Just because you have ki doesn't mean you can't get caught off guard. Heck, he got caught off guard like 3 times right after this

He’s looking directly at them, using ki and getting ready to attack them. This isn’t a counter argument, someone several meters in front of with a speed apparently 2x slower than your own is not catching you off guard.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yami, a ki user, who also have instinctive reaction, would be off guard against a enemy stading in front of him

Yeah pretty much. One needs to actually enact Ki sensing to have IR and Precog. Ki requires concentration remember? Yami just got careless.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

It doesn't have a single relevance to what I said. I'm not even talking about his combat speed, just his reaction speed

?

Give me a single instance where Yami dodged light magic. I'll wait.

The whole fight is literally him reacting and blocking his attacks. I don’t have to send a scan of this.

??? I have no idea what you're talking about.

Reread it bud.

 

[CloverDragon03]

And I don't see how Patry saying "Speed you'll never avoid" (Avoid implying dodging/moving out of the way) contradicts Yami being able to at least react to it or something

Again… You can react and still be slower, especially given Patry’s distance from Yami when he’s using Ray of Divine Punishment

 

[Arnoldstone18]

He used ki to spot them before they even appeared .

Doesn’t matter since Yami says himself that he got careless

Idek what sort of conversation this is or why this isn’t closed.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Yeah pretty much. One needs to actually enact Ki sensing to have IR and Precog. Ki requires concentration remember? Yami just got careless.

where is this coming from?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

where is this coming from?

Probably from the manga. Who knows.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Probably from the manga. Who knows.

No need to be a smart about it.
But everyone is claiming he was off guard, which is just false. While I do agree with his statement about him being careless, this does not refute the fact that someone moving apparently 2x slower than him could travel dozens of meters before he could give off an reaction.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Again… You can react and still be slower, especially given Patry’s distance from Yami when he’s using Ray of Divine Punishment

And still, why would you make his reaction speed slower than the thing he reacted to if said reaction was calced to be faster and nothing contradicts his reaction speed being this high?

Light Magic being the fastest only matter for things that Light Magic actually affects. Light Magic hasn't shown to affect one's reaction speed so it shouldn't be used to contradicts someone with faster reactions

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Dude moved dozens of meters. You can react to it even with Sub-Rela reactions

 

[Epsilon_R]

Dude moved dozens of meters. You can react to it even with Sub-Rela reactions

If that was supposed to be for my response to Clover, I wasn't talking about Yami reacting to Raia there