Black Clover: Lightspeed Downgrade

[KingTempest]

Hey. Yeah. It's happening.

I have a serious issue with how the lightspeed ratings of Black Clover are handled.
A lot of it is based on association fallacy, "why not"s, and whatever tf else.
Let's begin.

Statements of Lightspeed​

The main statements of anything being lightspeed are below.
Patry moving at lightspeed with light magic.
Patry's beam moving at lightspeed.
Raia with Patry's magic also moving at lightspeed.

And that's it.

I'm not here to contend those. They make perfect sense.

Things on the Wiki Currently Accepted to Move at Lightspeed​

Patry's light swords.

Issue with this Being SOL​

• It is shown at different speeds in the same material.

Yes, it is. Since his light swords can be moved at different speeds. Also, more in the last one.

• It is tangible and can be interacted with physically by normal humans.

Yup. They are shown as solid objects that can get stuck in people.

• They do not travel in straight lines.

This as well. His light swords start off as parallel to Patry, then they rotate and move perpendicular to him, then when they hit their victim, they change direction as their victim changes direction.
Newsflash, light does not regularly rotate.

On top of that, it's canonically slower than lightspeed.

After Yami was dealing with varying speeds of light swords and light magic, Patry says that his stated lightspeed attack is "speed he'll never avoid".
That stretches to Patry himself too, since he couldn't avoid it.
So yeah, that isn't lightspeed either.

Breaks every single criteria of lightspeed + is canonically slower than lightspeed. Shouldn't be lightspeed.

Next, People who Scale to above FTL​

Julius​

Why is Julius MFTL+ when he canonically had issues with SOL?
Julius got blitzed by the dude who snatched and grabbed his captives at lightspeed. Why does he scale 60,000 times faster?
He flat out said that Patry's lightspeed movement magic was faster than his own capabilities, doubling down saying that his magic is the fastest magic there is.
Which is why he's able to be tagged by Patry, and Patry says that even with precognition, there's limits to his speed.
With precognition, he was still incapable of tagging Patry.

If anything, he should be slower.

Why Julius scales to MFTL+ right now​

1. It's a Complete PIS imputed for continuity. Julius at that point was fated by plot to face Patry and it'll seemingly destroy the plot if Julius were to easily defeat him. The futher statements from Asta and Julius should be enough to counter that PIS however, there are further evidence presented to support this notion

• From the Novel "The Man Known as Julius", Yuno, Captain Jack, Charlotte aswell as magic knights from the Green Mantis and Blue Rose squad all surrounded a bandit with an unusual ability; Original Sin. Yuno charged in leading to Jack ordering an all out simultaneous assault on Garo(the bandit) which he reacted to. But every single knight present there was paused in time casually by Julius when he arrived without any from the bunch being able to react.
• In a different Novel "Captains’ Dinner Party" All 7 Captains were involved in a certain exercise where they were fighting golems and having a hard time doing so due to the golems being able to copy their abilities. A golem was even able to tag and restrain Yami with a copied spell from Rill. With all this going on, Julius eventually arrives and speed blitz all the golems and captured them instantly to the amazement of the captains.
• Chapter 245 of the original manga, Yami states he is not only just using Ki as a form of precognition to react before Dante strikes but also the addition of mana zone, then he blatantly clarifies He's not up to Julius level. While this could still be translated into his precognition being inferior it's still worth inclusiveness to the main point as speed was the foundation for the reference initially.
• Minor, but still relevant. Julius notifies Gaja is a skilled mage(which was enough credit that Asta needed to hear) on the basis of him fighting Gaja, narratively implying a mage of Gaja's level was accredited with a "Julius Level" standard.

Not a single damn thing here involves speed.
Deadass each thing here either utilizes freezing time hax or something else that's whack like precog.

Yami​

Yami has a calculation of being faster than light.

Now, issues with that calculation are assuming that Yami didn't just stop Patry before he finished his rotation. The calc is very difficult to use because it's based in the assumption that "Yami completely turned his entire body around before he started to make the black hole and freeze Patry in place".

Then with that in mind, Yami scaling to FTL is contradicted.

First, he says that he's mainly capable of reacting to Patry's lightspeed (or sub-lightspeed) attacks via Ki, specifically predicting his attacks and starting to attack before those happen.
Next he admits that the lightspeed attack's speed is an issue, after Patry (who witnesses all of his issues) says that it has a speed he can't avoid.
On top of that, he says that he can't even tag him unless he catches him off guard, since he'll move at lightspeed.
Backed up by Gauche, who states that Patry wouldn't be able to dodge lightspeed specifically cause it's lightspeed, thinking of lightspeed as a cap that can't be dodged.
With that in mind, he got blitzed by Raia when he moved at lightspeed, and Raia moved dozens of meters at lightspeed before he could even pull out his sword.

What Needs to Be Done?​

Idk. Downgrade em.

Maybe scale em to the newer version of this, idc.

But them being FTL isn't supported at all.

 

[Deceived3596]

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Eseseso]

Clover right now:

But I agree with the OP.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Clover right now:

But I agree with the OP.

Bold of you to assume I haven't been talking with KT about this for days on end now

Also I will say, it's unavoidable that the god tiers will be FTL thanks to Zora, but it's like 1.76c

 

[Kachon123]

Yeah, I agree with pretty much everything here.

 

[Maitreya12]

Right now I’m leaning towards agreeing with the OP but I’ll let the Black Clover goons make their case before cementing the notion.

 

[SuperStar]

Agreed.

 

[Eseseso]

Right now I’m leaning towards agreeing with the OP but I’ll let the Black Clover goons make their case before cementing the notion.

I mean the #1 BC goon agrees with the OP.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean the #1 BC goon agrees with the OP.

I'm the #1 BC supporter, Arnold is the #1 BC goon, there's a difference

 

[Deceived3596]

Both are gay tho

 

[Maitreya12]

You never know what kinda goons will pop out of the woodworks on god.

 

[StrawHatArslan]

agreed

 

[Excellence616]

Agreed

 

[Steve_Rogers1]

Idk. Downgrade em.

0.22c for anyone that scales to or above EMS Asta and Gauche
0.44c for Rage Amped Langris, Royal Knights Black Asta, SD Yuno, and Rill
Mereoleona comes in with a big boi feat at 15.7c, so anybody that scales to her should remain untouched.

 

[speedster352]

I never thought I would see the day but I hard agree with this downgrade crt

 

[Majinere566]

Common Speedster W

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

And so it begins…

I agree of course

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Yeah I agree

Even for current chapters Light Magic speed is relevant btw

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah I agree

Even for current chapters Light Magic speed is relevant btw

Idk about that one, I think everyone was shocked that "Nacht" was using Light Magic but I digress

 

[KingogKings777]

Agree FRE, watch yourselfs around manlets never know what type of trickery is up there short sleeves.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Why did I open this at the gym

Agreed ig

 

[SuperStar]

So you can work out the anger.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

It’s working…

 

[AnAverageUsername]

It’s working…

Lift those weights

Also agree fra

 

[Nierre]

Agree fra

 

[Planck69]

Makes sense to me.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I'm the #1 BC supporter, Arnold is the #1 BC goon, there's a difference

I’m sorry why is my name being called exactly?????

 

[Worthless]

That stretches to Patry himself too, since he couldn't avoid it.

In Patry defense he is run out of mana after casting that spell and although he couldn't avoid it (he tried to but can't for reason above) he could see/react to it, which could only mean that his reaction is lightspeed and therefore this argument:

Which is why he's able to be tagged by Patry, and Patry says that even with precognition, there's limits to his speed.With precognition, he was still incapable of tagging Patry.

If anything, he should be slower.

Is wrong because Julius causally blitzed Patry (reactions) several times after that, making his speed FTL.

On top of that the Patry from back then and the patry in this arc is just so different in stats thus saying his reaction has become more faster than before is not weird at all because it's how training works in BC their reaction and speed increases along with their power.

Anyway i only care about Julius

 

[Epsilon_R]

I wanna just mention something about my Calcs

Nozel's:

This is a false equivalence. While it makes sense to come to that conclusion, just because Nozel's calc uses the demon light version of the light swords doesn't mean we are accepting the regular light swords to be SoL.
Demon Light Swords of Conviction, unlike Light Swords of Conviction, has shown to be moving at least as fast as his Lightspeed Movement spell.

You said this:
"Now, issues with that calculation are assuming that Yami didn't just stop Patry before he finished his rotation. The calc is very difficult to use because it's based in the assumption that "Yami completely turned his entire body around before he started to make the black hole and freeze Patry in place"."

The bolded part is wrong. I'm not assuming he turned his body around but that he swung his sword, hence why there's a arm movement section in the calc.
But other than that I'm neutral cuz it's not travel speed but should still be a Reaction/Combat Speed feat. However I'm hard disagreeing on using yourNozel reflection Calc.

 

[Epsilon_R]

0.22c for anyone that scales to or above EMS Asta and Gauche
0.44c for Rage Amped Langris, Royal Knights Black Asta, SD Yuno, and Rill
Mereoleona comes in with a big boi feat at 15.7c, so anybody that scales to her should remain untouched.

This option is better imo

 

[Enigmatic_Rurouni]

Quick question, how will the speed look even after accounting the whole Devil power increase and stuff? Or has that been thrown out the window as of recent? I haven’t been on the site in a HOT minute

 

[Damage3245]

The OP seems reasonable to me.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

I agree, I don´t care about speed ratings to even try to defend anything

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Makes sense

 

[Stryker861]

I agree

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Doesn’t this make Ki reactions bare minimum FTL, though, since Yami can predict his movements still.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Doesn’t this make Ki reactions bare minimum FTL, though, since Yami can predict his movements still.

This, and I'm pretty sure his Combat Speed should scale to as he moved his sword

 

[M3X_2.0]

I agree with the OP, but you should’ve created the thread with a solution, ratings after the downgrade. Who scales to what, etc.

 

[Ped2018]

I agree with the OP, but you should’ve created the thread with a solution, ratings after the downgrade. Who scales to what, etc.

Or, at the very least, commented about the downgrade to the verse supporters so they could come up with a solution

 

[M3X_2.0]

KT is competent enough to figure out by himself.