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Black Clover : Good bye Mftl speed
- Thread starter AstaDragon123
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I'm not sure who told you this but 光速" (kōsoku, speed of light) isn't a disqualifier for being figurative, in the same way when some says as fast as lightning and then someone else proceeds just to point out lightning in isolation is the correct term that refers to literal lightning wouldn't suddenly make it less figurative, what determines if its figurative or hyperbolic is the tone and context of the sentence.
im assuming the person may have confused simile which japanese has a lot of for light alone as a blanket term for figurative language.
now im not saying its figurative, it can also be literal with the right context, just that its a net neutral term until you put it in a context.
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The context was light magic getting reflected off a mirror and it was stated that he couldn’t see it cause it moved at light speed
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thats perfectly fine imo
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may this just be a case of the characters not drastically getting as fast between story arcs as initially assumed?
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I agree, there's nothing to be done here, the entire chapter was based on how strong Morgan is and the reasons for this strength were clearly mentioned: The speed of light in his attacks and movements, and the shadow magic stronger than Yami's that swallowed all attacks. Not satisfied, Tabata still said that Morgen was stronger than Lucius' clones, so the scale of the MFTL calculation is invalid.
Xinsignia1
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I solidly disagree for a few reasons which i'll be formatting later.
Before this thread is closed, I think there's a substantial counter argument that hasn't even been considered if I may. I realized this after my second reread, and no its not "the speed of light is actually higher" However, I think my upcoming argument should be way more consistent with the story.
I'll post in a little bit later today (or tomorrow depending when im done with my other obligations) since I have irl endeavors I need to take care of for a few hours. But this is just a request for the mods and OP to not close the thread, until I've at least provides my counter arguments, because I do think we're being quite a bit hasty here.
Before this thread is closed, I think there's a substantial counter argument that hasn't even been considered if I may. I realized this after my second reread, and no its not "the speed of light is actually higher" However, I think my upcoming argument should be way more consistent with the story.
I'll post in a little bit later today (or tomorrow depending when im done with my other obligations) since I have irl endeavors I need to take care of for a few hours. But this is just a request for the mods and OP to not close the thread, until I've at least provides my counter arguments, because I do think we're being quite a bit hasty here.
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No.they literally have multipliers. And the people they fight are just vastly faster and stronger.
Fight someone,get stronger mid way (surpass thier limits) ,and repeat. To the point that there are literally speed blitzes that happen. Unless we ignore multiple arcs of growth and multipliers,as well as the HUGE differences between the people who fought (literally hundreds of times stronger) it isn’t possible for them to have “not” got that much faster. (Also that same magic that was called lightspeed got stronger/faster and Meroleona called it slow.
Epsilon_R
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A crt not even 12 hours after the chapter released, give us a break....
Going by this statement, that makes Patry and Morgen equals in speed (SoL), with DEP being the fastest at FTL.
BoS Yami, while he sure isn't lightspeed, can still use ki to at least track movements happening at such speeds. (Yes he can still have rel reactions, but that's not my point here)
In episode 156 (Canon episode) Yami is sparring with Mereoleona.
Although she was holding back, Yami stated that "she's faster than my ki can track" and couldn't comprehend how she could possibly move that fast.
To close the speed gap, Yami had to train his Mana Zone mid-battle, until he finally gets on equal footing.
He eventually tagged Mereoleona by learning condensed Mana Zone.
Yet according to this chapter, it took a new transformation, ki and Condensed Mana Zone for Yami to barely block a light speed attack.
This is something Nozel could do 2 years prior, from the same distance and against an FTL attack.
We agreed with Clover that the lightspeed cap is relevant so long as Julius is in his prime, so about 1/2 of the series thus far.
I don't mind discussing the cap for later arcs but not this time, this specific statement just contradicts everything that happened since the Elf Arc.
Going by this statement, that makes Patry and Morgen equals in speed (SoL), with DEP being the fastest at FTL.
BoS Yami, while he sure isn't lightspeed, can still use ki to at least track movements happening at such speeds. (Yes he can still have rel reactions, but that's not my point here)
In episode 156 (Canon episode) Yami is sparring with Mereoleona.
Although she was holding back, Yami stated that "she's faster than my ki can track" and couldn't comprehend how she could possibly move that fast.
To close the speed gap, Yami had to train his Mana Zone mid-battle, until he finally gets on equal footing.
He eventually tagged Mereoleona by learning condensed Mana Zone.
Yet according to this chapter, it took a new transformation, ki and Condensed Mana Zone for Yami to barely block a light speed attack.
This is something Nozel could do 2 years prior, from the same distance and against an FTL attack.
We agreed with Clover that the lightspeed cap is relevant so long as Julius is in his prime, so about 1/2 of the series thus far.
I don't mind discussing the cap for later arcs but not this time, this specific statement just contradicts everything that happened since the Elf Arc.
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@AstaDragon123 you couldn’t wait for the arc to finish or at least first discuss it in discussion general
I wish that was the case but they do get considerably faster and faster within a single arc much less between story arcs.
I don’t think one of the strongest in the series will be slightly faster than significantly far weaker mages. Especially when those two mages are light magic users. The consequences to that would be to imply that light magic user patry from beginning of series is just as fast as the strongest character shown right now, light magic user Morgen.
I don’t think a single statement given the context is enough to disqualify everything shown up to this point including other similar statements made for slower characters. It’d look like no progress in speed was made at all despite numerous showings contradicting the narrative.
I wish that was the case but they do get considerably faster and faster within a single arc much less between story arcs.
I don’t think one of the strongest in the series will be slightly faster than significantly far weaker mages. Especially when those two mages are light magic users. The consequences to that would be to imply that light magic user patry from beginning of series is just as fast as the strongest character shown right now, light magic user Morgen.
I don’t think a single statement given the context is enough to disqualify everything shown up to this point including other similar statements made for slower characters. It’d look like no progress in speed was made at all despite numerous showings contradicting the narrative.
AstaDragon123
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- Thread starter
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We already know what the latest episode is like, we've already talked about it. And I don't see what's wrong with doing the CRT before the story ends. I think it's also good that we keep the content up to date.
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Yeah sure these are cool reasons but in order not to rush things and make mistakes in judgement, especially for a massive change you’re proposing that will take a while to implement.
It’d be better to get feedback. The statement obviously can’t be accurate for many reasons. One of the most conspicuous one being Yami’s Ki being able to track light speed magic with incredible ease… can’t simply track it anymore at a point where he’s the strongest he ever will be? Yami’s own statements and feats contradict themselves if you take this statement literal.
AstaDragon123
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Ya, I posted a thread and you all come and express your opinions whether you agree or disagree, that's normal.
Hasty12345
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You haven’t done anything wrong, don’t listen to anyone who says otherwise.
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This is just gonna make things way more annoying to deal with. The CRT just says "the verse is capped at light speed" with zero proposals on how to fix stuff like the existing scaling that reaches FTL even without the MFTL calc that'll inevitably get removed
Not to mention, I don't think it's wrong to want to put any revisions regarding the Final Saga on hold until the series ends, no?
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Agree with the CRT. If the author wishes to retcon his perceived previous scale you can’t do much about it.
AstaDragon123
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I don't think so. Even if I do CRT now, tomorrow, or in a year from now, you won't edit your Verse profile after CRT has passed. Because you will wait to fix it until the matter is finished.
Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,349
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That depends on how much work those who want to do the changes are willing to put into it.
With such a drastic retcon, the pages are now very inaccurate. People who visit the site will be mislead by the current speed ratings.
It might be worth noting on the profiles that they are out of date at the very least.
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At the very least, I've already been looking on how things may change and stuff, looking at the current calcs and scaling with the LS statement in mind. As far as how other characters scale with new stuff happening in the chapters beyond that, the supporters (myself included) are keeping track of that stuff already
AstaDragon123
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Ya.
Kazuma_kuwabara
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Dark Elf Patry faster than Morgen, completely logical reasoning indeed
Dark elf--> Paladin which contradicts the whole story
Dark elf--> Paladin which contradicts the whole story
AstaDragon123
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Just speed.
Kazuma_kuwabara
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Paladins are perfect beings, they can't be weaker than mere mortals, even less when Morgen has one of the "primordial magics that shapes the world" and is slower than a dark elf who has his same magic without any title, just that is corrupted
When Paladins are CORRUPTION PURIFIED which is BETTER than the normal or corrupted variant
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Honestly I'm concerned about if Demon Light Magic is even FTL (like, the non-light speed spells would still be faster than before but the light speed ones are still light speed, idk)Hmmmm, does this make Black light the fastest thing in the verse?
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Or maybe the characters just think light magic goes at the speed of light due to its name and in reality it doesn't, since every light magic user has a different attack speed and the only true lighspeed attack would be the true light magic which is taught in the heart kingdom and that uses natural mana to summon actual light
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And then what? Is this to say that Light Magic can actually be FTL? That's like, self-evidently not the case. You'd need proper proof, not just speculation
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I would say the opposite actually, since true magic is shown to be stronger than normal magic, people learn that magic to become stronger or it wouldn't have sense to learn it
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Here is the raw if anyone wants to go at it.
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Looks to be the same kanji, maybe just an inconsistency/outlier?Here is the raw if anyone wants to go at it.
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Here is the raw if anyone wants to go at it.
This is what ChatGPT translates it into (not ideal but posting in case anyone wanted to know what a Surficial ai translation says)
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The word "kosoku" was used that literally means speed of light with "kogeno" and "de no" which means attack at
Together it literally translates to attack at light speed
Together it literally translates to attack at light speed
Saqphire
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Oh my lord, are we seriously rushing to debunk Black Clover to cap at lightspeed not even two full days after the statement was released? Let's actually digest this then;
These would be the contradictions to the proposed meta, which I'm aware some people here have already pointed out:
1. Patri and Rhya both having lightspeed movements, and Asta literally going so fast that Patri's lightspeed movement couldn't attack it in time (whether it was off-guard or the fact that Asta wasn't detected earlier due to anti-magic doesn't matter here, he was still detected up close, Patri had plenty of time to react and dodge as there are multiple panels of him thinking, using facial expressions and Yami even talking to him that's between Asta's appearance and Asta landing the hit). This implies Asta here would also have lightspeed movement.
2. Mereleona, both in Base and using Mana Zone, being able to blitz Raia, who is amplified with the eye on his forehead. Raia also concedes to her having superhuman speeds, when he already has lightspeed movement, so Mereo should be FTL here too.
3. Dark Elf Patri being faster than Base Patri who has established lightspeed movements.
4. Multipliers that exist even if we start the speed chain at Gauche's relativistic+ feat.
4A. There is a direct and accepted multiplier from Zora that amplifies the speed and strength of a reflected attack by two. This stacks for each reflection and Asta's combat speed has scaling to said reflected attacks. This Asta scales to the 4x amplified attack by outspeeding it, meaning he'd scale to an attack far faster than SOL here as the attack speedblitzed an amplified Raia. Even if we say Asta doesn't scale to Patri or Raia here and he's relativistic+ in the Elf Saga via Gauche's feat; the speed amplification of Zora would put Asta's combat speed beyond SOL anyway
4B. As Zora and Asta affirm in the manga, magic being amplified = speed/strength being amplified. This isn't something Light Magic has ever even been implied let alone stated to not have this trait, that notion would actually be discarded as Patri can charge it up to lightspeed. This means the Light Magic by Morgen can be slower than the real life scientific speed of light, the same way it can be faster but the whole basis of lightspeed being lightspeed is that it's constant; if it isn't constant in Black Clover, you automatically lose your basis for capping the verse at that speed.
4C. You can reinforce your physical capabilities (which includes speed) with magic. This is already accepted for lifting strength but it should be overall in this aspect even though the question was about physical strength. Demon Soul Yami is directly stated to amplify his stats from base. Raia, Patri, Lucius, Yuno, Mereo, Yami, literally everyone who isn't Asta can do this, and Asta amps himself via his own narrative of surpassing himself; with his anti-magic forms keeping up with magic forms
5. Yuno's mana zone being stated in the databook to be overwhelming the elves with speed, with Patri and Raia being in the panels
6. This entire debacle ignoring narrative, Patri is definitely NOT the fastest character in the verse in a narrative standpoint, Lucius makes that clear by having the Paladins portrayed as the perfect beings for example
There are definitely more examples of this statement being heavily contradicted if we presume Morgen's light magic caps at SOL but these should be enough anyway.
Adressing counter-arguments
This statement would just be a super clear outlier if we dogmatise the speed of people's light magic in the verse to cap at our scientific calculation of it and is just a clear fallacy of assertion. Disagree FRA
These would be the contradictions to the proposed meta, which I'm aware some people here have already pointed out:
1. Patri and Rhya both having lightspeed movements, and Asta literally going so fast that Patri's lightspeed movement couldn't attack it in time (whether it was off-guard or the fact that Asta wasn't detected earlier due to anti-magic doesn't matter here, he was still detected up close, Patri had plenty of time to react and dodge as there are multiple panels of him thinking, using facial expressions and Yami even talking to him that's between Asta's appearance and Asta landing the hit). This implies Asta here would also have lightspeed movement.
2. Mereleona, both in Base and using Mana Zone, being able to blitz Raia, who is amplified with the eye on his forehead. Raia also concedes to her having superhuman speeds, when he already has lightspeed movement, so Mereo should be FTL here too.
3. Dark Elf Patri being faster than Base Patri who has established lightspeed movements.
4. Multipliers that exist even if we start the speed chain at Gauche's relativistic+ feat.
4A. There is a direct and accepted multiplier from Zora that amplifies the speed and strength of a reflected attack by two. This stacks for each reflection and Asta's combat speed has scaling to said reflected attacks. This Asta scales to the 4x amplified attack by outspeeding it, meaning he'd scale to an attack far faster than SOL here as the attack speedblitzed an amplified Raia. Even if we say Asta doesn't scale to Patri or Raia here and he's relativistic+ in the Elf Saga via Gauche's feat; the speed amplification of Zora would put Asta's combat speed beyond SOL anyway
4B. As Zora and Asta affirm in the manga, magic being amplified = speed/strength being amplified. This isn't something Light Magic has ever even been implied let alone stated to not have this trait, that notion would actually be discarded as Patri can charge it up to lightspeed. This means the Light Magic by Morgen can be slower than the real life scientific speed of light, the same way it can be faster but the whole basis of lightspeed being lightspeed is that it's constant; if it isn't constant in Black Clover, you automatically lose your basis for capping the verse at that speed.
4C. You can reinforce your physical capabilities (which includes speed) with magic. This is already accepted for lifting strength but it should be overall in this aspect even though the question was about physical strength. Demon Soul Yami is directly stated to amplify his stats from base. Raia, Patri, Lucius, Yuno, Mereo, Yami, literally everyone who isn't Asta can do this, and Asta amps himself via his own narrative of surpassing himself; with his anti-magic forms keeping up with magic forms
5. Yuno's mana zone being stated in the databook to be overwhelming the elves with speed, with Patri and Raia being in the panels
6. This entire debacle ignoring narrative, Patri is definitely NOT the fastest character in the verse in a narrative standpoint, Lucius makes that clear by having the Paladins portrayed as the perfect beings for example
There are definitely more examples of this statement being heavily contradicted if we presume Morgen's light magic caps at SOL but these should be enough anyway.
Adressing counter-arguments
Not how that works and this is an argument under hasty generalisation, it could be a clear hyperbole or Yami referring to Morgen's light magic's speed, and not necessarily the speed of light. We don't put retcons and PIS over consistency, that's literally the groundrule for comics scaling on this wiki and I believe the same standard should apply here aswell
This is NOT how that works either; an inconsistency is an inconsistency no matter the age of it. We have to thoroughly evaluate what the statement would entail and whether it should be applied or if we should keep the previously established scaling instead of just throwing out consistency because of one bad statement
This statement would just be a super clear outlier if we dogmatise the speed of people's light magic in the verse to cap at our scientific calculation of it and is just a clear fallacy of assertion. Disagree FRA
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Epsilon_R
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He's quite literally implying the opposite. That basically any lightspeed statement is flowery language
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Was hard to tell. But yeah that's not the case either
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Patry and Raia are only light speed with specific spells, and Patry wasn't using his when Asta attacked him
Still wasn't moving at light speed when he was blitzed by Mereoleona, so this means nothing
He's faster than Patry's normal moves, yes. Light speed is still light speed, and that's something else entirely
A. The multiplier exists yes, but official statements (like the verse being capped at light speed) take precedence over fan calculations. We don't know more than the writer, nor should we pretend we do, unless there's a true inconsistency at play. And there is none here. Also, Gauche's feat isn't Relativistic+
B. Only Zora's multiplier is also a multiplier for speed. The whole "magic being multiplied = attack and speed are both multiplied by the same amount" thing has been removed for some time
C. Yeah you can reinforce your physical abilities but it's by some unknown amount so this means a whole lotta nothing tbh
Again, the elves were not moving at light speed there, so this means nothing
This same narrative is the exact same one that caps the verse at light speed to begin with. Morgen's moving at light speed with his magic and Yami considers him "too damn fast." You can't cherry-pick the narrative based on what's convenient
The consistency is in light speed being the cap. This whole "it could be [X] or [Y] other thing" is just an attempt to evade the clear fact that light speed is intended as the cap here. And using comics scaling is a clear whataboutism especially considering that Marvel and DC have such rules as a result of the comics having multiple different writers and such
It is inconsistent to make a verse FTL or even faster than that when the clear intention is for it to be capped at light speed, and such an inconsistency should be rectified, yes. There's no consistency in saying "let's ignore what's clearly stated to push for upgrades"
"Fallacy of assertion" assumes that the assertion has no evidence behind it when it clearly does btw
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Also yes, I have said I don't want to actively deal with changing the speed values atm because that's a lot of stuff to do, but that doesn't mean I don't agree with the verse being capped at light speed. I do, and I think the arguments against this are very poor in the face of such clear evidence
Epsilon_R
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I disagree with a few points.
1. Yami said it himself, he can catch the lightspeed goons off guard, which is what Asta did to Patry. So that doesn't count
4. Gauche's feat is not Rel+, just rel. So even if we use all accepted multipliers it only gets up to 1.8c. Also, the speed = ap thing was rejected, so it's useless.
Other than that I agree with you. The Yuno Databook statement is also a welcomed addition, knowing that Mana Zone does indeed boost speed as seen in ep 156.
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