Black Clover: Lightspeed Downgrade

[M3X_2.0]

He’s lazy though.

 

[Ped2018]

He’s lazy though.

avarage one piece supporter

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I kinda agree for the most part but im not sure about these.

The main statements of anything being lightspeed are below.
Patry moving at lightspeed with light magic.
Patry's beam moving at lightspeed.
Raia with Patry's magic also moving at lightspeed.

Things on the Wiki Currently Accepted to Move at Lightspeed
Patry's light swords.

Issue with this Being SOL​

• It is shown at different speeds in the same material.

correct me if im wrong but the reason for why they accepted is based on the statments saying they lightspeed not that they come from a natural source like actual IRL light. so im not sure how it being able to go faster makes this inconsistent, it would just mean that the story establishes that characters can amp the speed of an ability with an already stated speed.

• It is tangible and can be interacted with physically by normal humans.

see my point above

• They do not travel in straight lines.

see my point above

This as well. His light swords start off as parallel to Patry, then they rotate and move perpendicular to him, then when they hit their victim, they change direction as their victim changes direction.
Newsflash, light does not regularly rotate.

See my point above.

these arguments only work on the assumption that the speed is considered lightspeed solely because it's light

 

[Epsilon_R]

I kinda agree for the most part but im not sure about these.

correct me if im wrong but the reason for why they accepted is based on the statments saying they lightspeed not that they come from a natural source like actual IRL light. so im not sure how it being able to go faster makes this inconsistent, it would just mean that the story establishes that characters can amp the speed of an ability with an already stated speed.

see my point above

see my point above

See my point above.

these arguments only work on the assumption that the speed is considered lightspeed solely because it's light

I think his point is that only the spells stated to be lightspeed are so and the rest is slower

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I think his point is that only the spells stated to be lightspeed are so and the rest is slower

ahh okay

 

[Epsilon_R]

But to be fair there's a misconception about his attack that has been stated to be Lightspeed to begin with

People use his statement "Speed you'll never avoid" as a way to say it's his fastest spell so far when little to nothing indicates that

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

I am unbelievably happy about the creation of this thread

So tired of 12000x FTL Black Clover off of bogus

 

[Epsilon_R]

I am unbelievably happy about the creation of this thread

So tired of 12000x FTL Black Clover off of bogus

My brother, this change doesn't affect the upper scaling much

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I mean, even Julius, who is a top tier, is becoming slower than SoL

 

[Epsilon_R]

I mean, even Julius, who is a god tier, s becoming slower than SoL

It only affects Julius tho

 

[Epsilon_R]

And that assumes the entire Julius vs Patry battle isn't PIS

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I mean, even Julius, who is a top tier, is becoming slower than SoL

Julius?? A top tier? In chapter 350+?

 

[Epsilon_R]

Julius?? A top tier? In chapter 350+?

I suppose it's because of Asta’s statement

But even then, what does it have to do with Speed? You can be a top tier without being fast

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

And that assumes the entire Julius vs Patry battle isn't PIS

Also, yeah, this is pretty true. Yami and Patry admit had he not fooled Fugeoleon, he wouldn’t have beaten him in a one on one, which would have to include his LS movement. All Captains at that point were subordinate to the Wizard King, nor was Julius even actively attempting to maliciously harm Patry, since he was in William’s body.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Also, yeah, this is pretty true. Yami and Patry admit had he not fooled Fugeoleon, he wouldn’t have beaten him in a one on one, which would have to include his LS movement. All Captains at that point were subordinate to the Wizard King, nor was Julius even actively attempting to maliciously harm Patry, since he was in William’s body.

And I forgot to mention the ridiculously circular scaling it would create

 

[Xinsignia1]

And that assumes the entire Julius vs Patry battle isn't PIS

Wasn't it stated he was holding back his power in that battle though?

Julius did state that he can can't tone down his magic (I guess since nearly every offensive time spell is lethal) and the chronostasis orbs can easily fluctuate between freezing and acceleration. So I was operating under the more magical power he expends, the more lethal the spell is (in terms if reversing time, or accelerating it)

From what I recall as your magical power increases, so does your stats + speed, and as your magical power decreases, so does your stats and speed. So I was operating under the assumption that Julius for most of the Patry battle was nerfing himself (which includes stat+ speed+ spells) since the amount of magical power you expended also affects these things.

 

[KingTempest]

In Patry defense he is run out of mana after casting that spell and although he couldn't avoid it (he tried to but can't for reason above) he could see/react to it, which could only mean that his reaction is lightspeed and therefore this argument:

Isn't he loved by mana. How did he run out after he blasted that strong ass move

Is wrong because Julius causally blitzed Patry (reactions) several times after that, making his speed FTL.

On top of that the Patry from back then and the patry in this arc is just so different in stats thus saying his reaction has become more faster than before is not weird at all because it's how training works in BC their reaction and speed increases along with their power.

This isn't how it works.

Patry's base speed and reactions aren't SOL, Patry with his SOL movement spell is SOL.

His reactions can be Rel or something, but it doesn't mean Julius is FTL

I kinda agree for the most part but im not sure about these.

correct me if im wrong but the reason for why they accepted is based on the statments saying they lightspeed not that they come from a natural source like actual IRL light. so im not sure how it being able to go faster makes this inconsistent, it would just mean that the story establishes that characters can amp the speed of an ability with an already stated speed.

these arguments only work on the assumption that the speed is considered lightspeed solely because it's light

It's accepted because "it's light magic, shouldn't be slower than the other LS attack, and no antifeats"

But to be fair there's a misconception about his attack that has been stated to be Lightspeed to begin with

People use his statement "Speed you'll never avoid" as a way to say it's his fastest spell so far when little to nothing indicates that

Not saying that.

I used the "speed you'll never avoid" as saying that LS is something far above his other attacks, since you can avoid his other attacks

I agree with the OP, but you should’ve created the thread with a solution, ratings after the downgrade. Who scales to what, etc.

I'm making a multiplier thread after to actually change the ratings

This is just to note the inconsistency with values and scaling. Nxxt will be a bigger thread.

This is basically Part 1

 

[Epsilon_R]

Isn't he loved by mana. How did he run out after he blasted that strong ass move

Most of his magic power is sealed so loved by mana stuff doesn't apply here. Btw Mana is a separate thing from Magic Power

This isn't how it works.

Patry's base speed and reactions aren't SOL, Patry with his SOL movement spell is SOL.

Patry can pretty much have conversations and move around his body while using the movement spell, how does his reactions not scale to it?

It's accepted because "it's light magic, shouldn't be slower than the other LS attack, and no antifeats"

Huh?

If you're talking about the swords, we don't use them at all. Only exception is Nozel's feat because there's actually supporting evidence.

 

[KingTempest]

Most of his magic power is sealed so loved by mana stuff doesn't apply here. Btw Mana is a separate thing from Magic Power

Regardless, the assumption that he ran out isn't a supported one

Patry can pretty much have conversations and move around his body while using the movement spell, how does his reactions not scale to it?

I'm assuming you don't know how reactions work

Speaking and thinking while moving at a certain speed doesn't quantify for reactions.

Making stops, turning, and certain movements at said speed is what gives you reactions.

Huh?

If you're talking about the swords, we don't use them at all. Only exception is Nozel's feat because there's actually supporting evidence.

With that, now I need to tackle that portion

This is a false equivalence. While it makes sense to come to that conclusion, just because Nozel's calc uses the demon light version of the light swords doesn't mean we are accepting the regular light swords to be SoL.
Demon Light Swords of Conviction, unlike Light Swords of Conviction, has shown to be moving at least as fast as his Lightspeed Movement spell.

Panel 1: Swords travel at least as fast as him (otherwise he would have reached the Mercury before his swords did. Plus there would be no point in attacking while charging towards him if the attacks were slower)

He was pulling them as he was moving lightspeed.

Big difference than his regular movement

If I stand and I throw a knife vs I'm running at you and throwing a knife, relative velocity of myself accelerates the attack

On top of that, it didn't even look like he threw them yet

Panel 2: Gets hit multiple times and can't even dodge

Danmaku, not speed.

 

[Epsilon_R]

I'm assuming you don't know how reactions work

Speaking and thinking while moving at a certain speed doesn't quantify for reactions.

Making stops, turning, and certain movements at said speed is what gives you reactions.

Turning around and swinging his arms still counts, am I wrong?

With that, now I need to tackle that portion

He was pulling them as he was moving lightspeed.

Big difference than his regular movement

If I stand and I throw a knife vs I'm running at you and throwing a knife, relative velocity of myself accelerates the attack

On top of that, it didn't even look like he threw them yet

He threw them

Danmaku, not speed.

There's not that many of them, if they were slower he'd have the time to at least aim dodge some of them.

 

[KingTempest]

Turning around and swinging his arms still counts, am I wrong?

Can be calced, but it wouldn't scale you to LS.

Moving at LS and stopping in under a meter is FTL and above reactions.
Stopping after that is Rel+ and below reactions.

He did threw them

Nevermind then, falls under the latter

There's not that many of them, if they were slower he'd have the time to at least aim dodge some of them.

There's a shit ton, Tabata just doesn't draw each moment of him releasing em, plus they're at close distances

 

[Deagonx]

The main statements of anything being lightspeed are below.
Patry moving at lightspeed with light magic.
Patry's beam moving at lightspeed.
Raia with Patry's magic also moving at lightspeed.

And that's it.

I'm not here to contend those. They make perfect sense.

I'm actually kind of surprised at this. Isn't it fairly normal for people to use the phrase "light speed" in a hyperbolic way?

 

[Epsilon_R]

Can be calced, but it wouldn't scale you to LS.

Moving at LS and stopping in under a meter is FTL and above reactions.
Stopping after that is Rel+ and below reactions.

Aight bet

Nevermind then, falls under the latter

So is the calc good or?

There's a shit ton, Tabata just doesn't draw each moment of him releasing em, plus they're at close distances

Nah they are just constantly reflected, that's why it looks like there's like 80 of them, but whatever

 

[KingTempest]

So is the calc good or?

Yeah since it outpaces the movement of his LS the calc is good (or at least using LS for the swords is good)



Please remember.

My issue isn't "hurr durr Julius has no FTL scaling so he can't be FTL"
It's "Julius notes a blatant cap on LS when it comes to his speed"

I've noticed a lot onsite and offsite about "well he scales to this person who has a calc so why is that being ignored".

The point is that Julius notes LS to be something that is superior to his own speed

 

[Epsilon_R]

Yeah since it outpaces the movement of his LS the calc is good (or at least using LS for the swords is good)

Yeah only for the Demon light version of them though.

Please remember.

My issue isn't "hurr durr Julius has no FTL scaling so he can't be FTL"
It's "Julius notes a blatant cap on LS when it comes to his speed"

I've noticed a lot onsite and offsite about "well he scales to this person who has a calc so why is that being ignored".

The point is that Julius notes LS to be something that is superior to his own speed

Ngl I don't know why Julius even scales to Lucius in speed.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I hate that Julius fight, it’s so weird.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Ngl I don't know why Julius even scales to Lucius in speed.

There was a thread on this. “Likely” could’ve been fair since Julius will always have that sort of reasoning the thread used (he was nerfed etc etc) as long as he IS Julius.

A non-nerfed version of him just doesn’t exist

 

[Epsilon_R]

I mean Lucius himself states he's superior to Julius so the editors note doesnt make much sense tbh

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Damn

Agreed with the OP

 

[GTsek]

I agree with everything, it finally happened.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Isn't it fairly normal for people to use the phrase "light speed" in a hyperbolic way?

No

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm actually kind of surprised at this. Isn't it fairly normal for people to use the phrase "light speed" in a hyperbolic way?

Not really. Usually the term is "lightning fast."

Also, it wouldn't really apply here because light speed is well established to be a bit of a cap in the Black Clover verse, via Light Magic

 

[Deagonx]

Not really. Usually the term is "lightning fast."

No

Well, I can't say for sure whether it's being used as hyperbole here, but I can certainly confirm it's a common hyperbole.

 

[CloverDragon03]

That's fair. It's more common than I thought I guess. Though I don't think it's hyperbolic in the context of Black Clover

 

[Worthless]

Isn't he loved by mana. How did he run out after he blasted that strong ass move

The face he made after casting that spell is the same face he made after using all of the mana he got (Including the sealed one) to cast a very powerful spell that would kill everyone in the kingdom - which could only mean that his mana is empty or almost empty. It's for that reason why he failed to avoid it (On top of that he was shocked to see Gauche and thus off guard.)

Patry's base speed and reactions aren't SOL, Patry with his SOL movement spell is SOL.

His reactions can be Rel or something, but it doesn't mean Julius is FTL

His reaction is SoL base on the scan i showed he even saw Gauche before his spell that supposedly move at LS could touch Yami and Asta.

 

[45Saef]

It’s working…

The way I’m laughing rn is unreal (I’m sorry)

 

[45Saef]

Anyways, I agree FRA

 

[Lynieryz]

Isn't he loved by mana.

Damn I read mama....

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I was asked to unlock this by KT, so I did

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Thanks dad