Black Clover Speed Upgrade (Elf/Spade) CRT

[CloverDragon03]

Says Clover in a forum where multiple parties have been banned because powerscaling stuff is that serious...

I'm saying it should never reach that point to begin with, the fact that it has is baffling to me

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I'm saying it should never reach that point to begin with, the fact that it has is baffling to me

That's it. Let's find an empty alley and solve this!

 

[chosen]

Also y'all seriously need to chill, this powerscaling stuff is never that serious

It's life or death out here

 

[Arnoldstone18]

****… I should’ve made this crt myself

 

[KingTempest]

Didn't Yami say he can't hit Patry specifically cause he'll dodge at lightspeed?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah

 

[M3X_2.0]

Jujutsu Kaisen syndrome.

A verse where the author clearly caps at one Tier and everyone think the author is wrong. Then they use fan calculations and force this interpretation as a fact.

I agree with Clover.

 

[CloverDragon03]

So just as a heads-up, the OP has DM'd me saying that he's on vacation and probably won't be able to respond for a couple of days, so we should wait for him to come back so he can make a response

Just saying this in advance so the thread doesn't get closed prematurely or something

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Oh my god...

Welp, I figured this would happen at some point. Time to sift through this absolute text wall. Now, my interest in Black Clover scaling has admittedly gone down significantly for a multitude of reasons. However, I don't agree with this attempt to re-upgrade the cast and it'd be disingenuous of me to just not do anything despite how I feel about it. So... here we go.

Sorry for taking so long to respond, and thank you for keeping the thread open! Hope everyone is enjoying the holidays.

There's no issue in using the narrative of a story to arrive at a rating. In fact, that's the clearest case of what the author wants the series to be rated at, so why wouldn't I use that? In fact, I feel the concept of "death of the author" is pretty abused in battleboarding in particular.

I am not appealing to death of the author nor I am saying it is wrong because it is purely a narrative argument. I am saying that it is wrong as a narrative argument going by context, calcs, and scaling. Narrative scaling is fine, me debunking it was never about it purely being narrative. I'm arguing that isn't narratively true. I brought up statements of people calling Light Magic the strongest, which wouldn't be literally possible according to similar logic as the speed argument. I brought up statements of light magic being the fastest, and it’s not. We have 2+(A third is in the process but that cannot be used until accepted) calcs of people moving faster than light magic. Narratively Mashle characters have .1 second reaction time in a verse that is FTL. Something stated in a series can be wrong if it is contradicted numerous times, light magic being the fastest is. In Black Clover, we actually have seen light be outsped. We already have at least 2 calcs of characters moving faster than the light swords.

Mereo being too fast for Yami to track with his Ki even though he could read the KI of LS characters.

This old accepted calc has Asta moving faster than Ray of Divine Punishment from DEP.

On top of it, we have Ratri erasing Augustus's SLOW Light magic.

Rhya needs Light movement spell + Spatial magic in order to avoid Mereoleona's attacks. Whereas Vetto can outrun them with raw speed with his Cheetah Charge spell. This is an implication that Vetto is faster than Rhya's Light Magic, since he did not need additional magic to outspeed her attacks. This is supported by Mereoleona actually complimenting Vetto's speed, but never complimenting Rhya's or his magic's speed during their entire fight (even though he used light magic against her numerous times).

Also, Julius actually outspeeds a light spell that had its speed doubled. Now, I see the argument that Julius teleported with time magic, but I don't see why that's the case. Correct me if I'm wrong but Julius was given teleportation because Asta referred to one of LUCIUS' movements as teleportation and that Movement(?) has similar art style and holds the same sound "vum" effects. The issue with that is that at this point Lucius has at least two magic types that also have teleportation in Gravity Magic and Spatial Magic from Lucifero and Beelzebub. But inside Neverland, where time spells have no power, Lucius is making these same "teleportations" with the same sound effects. Meaning they are not coming from Time Magic. On top of this, Julius himself is never stated to have teleportation and instead all it says is that he accelerates the time of mana around him to read the mana of the future and make predictions. In fact, when he moves, characters mention how fast he is or how he's moving so fast. This would mean that Julius moved faster than a doubled light spell with his speed. Giving another example of light magic being outsped.

This is what makes the most sense for the interpretation of light magic based on other magic types and how they are explained. In the manga, it is stated that the fire spirit has the highest attack power among the four spirits. When paired with this databook statement, it implies that fire is the strongest of the four elements. Wind is the fastest of the four, Earth is the best for defense, and water is a mixture of defense and power. Obviously, we've seen that the fire spirit isn't literally the strongest, Bell and Undine have both been stronger than Salamander on numerous occasions and we've seen fire mages have less AP than the other 3 main elements. What this is saying is that these elements have these standards at their base, and the same should apply to light magic.

The Fire Spirit is stated to have the strongest attack power of the four spirits, because it is of fire, this is contradicted by Bell and Undine both being considerably stronger than Salamander. So then we interpret this as salamander(fire) as a baseline being stronger than the other spirits(elements).

Light Magic is stated to be the strongest attribute, we see this is not true as many non-light attributes have higher AP than light spells on numerous occasions, and we interpret this as Light Magic is probably the strongest element as a baseline but other magics can be stronger with varying factors.

Light Magic is stated to be the fastest magic, we see this is not true as several non-light attributes have moved faster than Light spells on several occasions, yet for some reason we are supposed to interpret that light magic is always the fastest magic, until it's not the fastest anymore in the Final Arc.

Also, you are correct that Dark Magic is extremely slow. However, the argument you're forming from it is poor, as Yami is stated to compensate for this by cloaking his sword with Dark Magic and also by using Reinforcement Magic. In fact, this is precisely what Rhya's doing when he moves alongside Vetto and Fana in the scan you're using. He's not, say, using a spell that makes him move at the "speed of darkness" or something like that, much like how Patry has a spell that makes him move at the speed of light.

My argument is not poor. Dark magic is made fast by Yami’s reinforcement and physicals. Rhya has no such physicals to compensate. I never argued that there is this “dark speed” but that Patry is referring to the magics as being on the opposite of the spectrum of speed. If Light magic is always the fastest, so must dark magic be the slowest. Patry literally says their speeds are polar opposites. You cannot use the statement to support light magic's cap but then reason why dark magic can be made fast. If elements are made faster via magic power/techniques/physicals, then there is no real reason for light magic to be the cap for the same reaons ,since seen other magic move faster than it because of their own magic power/techniques/physicals.

In the case of Yuno, there's two things that are really important to note:

1. Dodging something doesn't immediately make you faster than it, so him dodging the light or saving Patry from it just means he's in the same ballpark as light speed. And well... His Relativistic+ rating very much supports that.
2. He's also using Mana Zone, which improves the user's reactions

1. This is my bad, I thought there was already a calc of this that got rejected due to the swords not being LS. BUT, I have seen so many calcs of this being FTl that I thought this was on-site. Could be worth calcing, but still, we have other calcs of non-light magic moving faster than light magic.
2. This wouldnt change anything if Yuno was using Mana zone, it still would be a non-light magic moving faster than Light, IF it is indeed moving faster.

The start of this is honestly a bit of a misunderstanding of the current speed tiers. Dark Elf Patry himself is not FTL, just like how regular Patry himself is not SoL. That speed is only reached with certain light spells, most notably the movement spell, Ray of Divine Punishment, and likely Light Swords of Conviction (I only don't say fully on this one because it might have something going against it, but for the sake of argumentation, let's assume Light Swords of Conviction is also SoL). As such, Asta reacting to Dark Elf Patry swinging his sword. In fact, he couldn't react to the movement he took to get there. Both of these are shown here.

Nah, I completely understood the speed tiers and knew that DEP was only FTL with the movement spell, light swords(only demon light), and RODP. But, I disagree that Asta couldn’t react to DEP. The first instance is an off-guard Asta who is in the middle of talking to Zagred, which would be unfair to use. The second instance is Asta reacting to a DEP who used his movement spell to come from behind. Also, Asta reacted to the Ray of Divine Punishment without difficulty, which is an accepted SoL/FTL spell. It is clear that Asta can react to DEP's FTL spells.

See, there's just one problem with this: Is the spell Yami blocks SoL? I'm inclined to believe not, as Patry refers to his Ray of Divine Punishment's speed as "speed [Yami] will never avoid" despite Yami having blocked this previous light spell beforehand.

And when you get that out of the way, the rest of this is nothing special. It just says that Mereolena > Patry, which... Yeah, no kidding.

I'm honestly really confused at the response to this argument despite how clear I have been. You guys keep bringing up movements/reactions even though I have clearly been mentioning "Reading" Ki. Reading or Tracking Ki is different from reacting. As I showed, Asta could use Ki to track Ladros's attack but couldn't actually react to it by dodging or parrying. Yami can read Patry's Ki. But couldn't read Mereoeleona's. Yami never says he couldn't read Patry's Ki. Furthermore, Asta being able to react to Dark Elf Patry's RODP signifies that he could track it with ki. At the point in the middle of the timeskip, Yami is considered far above Asta. Meaning that Yami should be able to track RODP with Ki, but can't track Mereoleona with Ki. Ray of Divine Punishment < The Speed that Yami's Ki can "TRACK" < Mereoleona.

Gonna break this down into bullet points, I think it improves readability that way.

• You brought forward how Julius stopped all the captains and Yuno just before the Royal Knights Exam (or something of that sort) if I remember correctly, which would point to him being faster than them or at least comparable. Later during the fight with Patry, Marx even says that only those on the level of Magic Knight Captains can keep up, implying that Julius's speed is at least comparable to that of the Captains.

This was dismissed as a non-speed feat in a previous CRT. So I don't think that should NOT used as a speed feat in one thread to downgrade the speed of the verse, and then to be used as as speed feat in another thread to downgrade the speed of the verse once more. It's not consistent.

• I don't see why the distinction between Base Patry and Elf Patry is being made. If the argument is that the difference between these two boosts their light spells' speed, then you can't really say the spells are light speed since that'd break our criteria (this is especially damning since I think Light Swords of Conviction is allegedly light speed). If the argument is just to show that Yuno > Julius, I wouldn't even agree there, as Julius catching them instead of moving doesn't really mean he's slower than Yuno, just that it's his best means of negating the attack (hell, he does it pretty effortlessly too). Yuno's movement is also through a dedicated Mana Zone spell to begin with.

I was actually mainly bringing up the distinction of Patry and Elf Patry mainly for AP. As the argument presented for Julius being a part of the speed cap was him being the strongest magic knight, and Lucius made it a big deal that he was stronger than Julius. There are far too many feats to justify that the Julius we saw fight Patry is even close to a fraction of Base Lucius's power. Julius is even considered far weaker than Lucius (and many other characters in the elf-arc) on the site. Julius needed to use Mana Zone to block Patry's spells so I don't see the fact that Yuno used one as much of a counter.

• I'm not even getting into the power stuff because I was never gonna argue elemental advantage, that's pretty irrelevant to a speed discussion anyway, but... I really wouldn't use Valtos as a reliable metric at all.

Bringing up power is not irrelevant when one of the major pieces of evidence upholding the speed cap is a statement featuring the word "Strongest".

• The idea that Julius isn't actually the "strongest" because of the Patry fight is absurd to me, given that he's explicitly stated to be holding back

And this is where the argument falters in my view. Julius is a part of the speed cap of the verse even though he's holding back power. It is already accepted on the site that power and speed have a correlation, they just do not hold a 1:1 link anymore. If Julius is not going full power then he is not going full speed. It is actually a far more supported interpretation that Julius is the fastest magic knight at full power, but he's holding back, and that's why you have so many people scaling above him in speed via the Nozel and Mereoleona FTL/+ calcs that many other characters would scale to as well. These captains are only faster because Julius is holding back. Julius is Relativistic+ while holding back, but is at least FTL if he's going all out.

 

[Majinere566]

Jesus

 

[Fwyzzverse]

Jesus

 

[Fwyzzverse]

I agree FRA with the CRT, put me in the agreement branch.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Rhya needs Light movement spell + Spatial magic in order to avoid Mereoleona's attacks. Whereas Vetto can outrun them with raw speed with his Cheetah Charge spell. This is an implication that Vetto is faster than Rhya's Light Magic, since he did not need additional magic to outspeed her attacks. This is supported by Mereoleona actually complimenting Vetto's speed, but never complimenting Rhya's or his magic's speed during their entire fight (even though he used light magic against her numerous times).

This further separates Mereoleona's FTL+ calc from Julius vs Patry btw, since Vetto is canonically faster than Rhya who Yami considers relative to Patry

 

[KingTempest]

This further separates Mereoleona's FTL+ calc from Julius vs Patry btw, since Vetto is canonically faster than Rhya who Yami considers relative to Patry

Vetto is faster than Rhya. He has nothing saying he is faster than Rhya with a light movement spell

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Vetto is faster than Rhya. He has nothing saying he is faster than Rhya with a light movement spell

Yes, I didn't bring up light movement spell +spatial portal spell because Rhya with a light movement spell is faster than base speed which Yami considers lightspeed "too" (on par wiith Patry)

So both Vetto and Rhya are faster than Base Rhya and Patry movement speeds.

 

[KingTempest]

Yes, I didn't bring up light movement spell +spatial portal spell because Rhya with a light movement spell is faster than base speed which Yami considers lightspeed "too" (on par wiith Patry)

So both Vetto and Rhya are faster than Base Rhya and Patry movement speeds.

His base speed is not lightspeed wtf are you talking about

 

[CloverDragon03]

Rhya only has lightpseed movement with that Light Magic movement spell. The manga shows something of that nature, which the anime then clarifies is his light movement spell (the anime can be used to clarify manga scenes as long as they're not contradictory)