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Black Clover : FTL+ again

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AstaDragon123

AstaDragon123

He/Him
233
76
Several months ago, the Black Clover verse received a major speed cut. For that reason,

So I went back and read the Black Clover manga again.From chapters 1-372 and found that it was easy to return to FTL+ again.And I think my reasoning was strong enough for it to actually happen that way.

Statements of Lightspeed​

1.Yami says Patry can dodge attacks at the speed of light.
2.Gauche says that Party's greatest magic attack is light speed.
3.Yami says that Raia, who copied Patry's light magic, can move at the speed of light as well.

Problems of Statements, Light Magic and Julius​

1.Julius says that light magic is faster than his magic. But he can use his magic to attack Patry. Patry can move, dodge. at the speed of light.
2.Light magic is the fastest magic there is but that doesn’t mean is can’t be blocked.If it really was the fastest magic Why was Julius able to use time magic to block the attack? If it really was the fastest magic There was probably no mage who could use defensive magic based on the speed of light magic.
3.Light magic was the highest speed magic. This statement was completely refuted. With the arrival of demon light mgic that is superior to light magic in all aspects, including speed.The story doesn't say how much faster demon light magic is than light magic.

And for the reasons I mentioned I think we should go back to cals FTL+ again.
The story's statements were debunked from the beginning. So I think we should go with Eagle Vs Lion cals again.
I also want to update Julius' Combat speed to light speed. Because he can attack Patry who can move at the speed of light based on this feat.

Agree : @Joshyyy_64 (Julius)

Disagree:mad:Xinsignia1(FTL+ again)

Neutral : @Joshyyy_64 (FTL+ again) @Faa_Tzy @Xinsignia1(Julius)
 
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I agree for Julius, I'm neutral leaning to agree for the rest until I see reasons for why we shouldn't go back to the old calculations.
 
I’m neutral. I don't seem to see any change in argumentation from the previous one.

Like the proof of patry's sol and its problems, which might have been in the previous threads?...Which means that this possibility is still unusable. Even so, it's just a matter of waiting for the supporters.

I also have high hopes for this to be accepted again.
 
AstaDragon said:
And for the reasons I mentioned I think we should go back to cals FTL+ again.
The story's statements were debunked from the beginning. So I think we should go with Eagle Vs Lion cals again.
I also want to update Julius' Combat speed to light speed. Because he can attack Patry who can move at the speed of light based on this feat.
Click to expand...
From what I recall in the previous down grade thread, KingTempest and a few others brought a few good points.

We established that only two light spells were confirmed to be light speed.

1) Patry's/Rhya's movement spell.

2) Ray of divine punishment.

Light rays are light speed because that's how they travel in a vacuum, the light swords of conviction, and other light constructs however are not light rays, they are creation spells/constructs that have variable speeds, much like the irl phenomenon photonic matter.

So I disagree with the Eagle calc and light swords, but I'm neutral on everything else.
 
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Disagree

You can block something and the like and still be slower. And Demon Light Magic existing doesn't suddenly mean everything's faster than Light Magic
 
It is pretty hard to justify light magic being slower every other magic because demon Light magic exists. Anti Magic, time magic, soul magic and curse magic are possible to be elevated to above light speed since those are not taken into consideration when making the Statement about light magic.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Yes, we know Demon Light Magic is faster than Light Magic. That doesn't make a bunch of other things faster than it by default.

The only thing superior to Light Magic by this time is... A strictly upgraded version of Light Magic
Click to expand...

You have to answer my question. Nozel uses mercury magic. According to Statements, his magic should be slower than Ligth magic. But he can use his magic to fight against Demon light magic users. Very close and can easily block attacks from Demon ligh magic. What is it?
 
Nozel's Mercury Magic was calculated at Relativistic+ from intercepting Dark Elf Party's Ray of Divine Punishment. Again, you can block things and be slower than them
 
Deagonx said:
What was the reasoning for removing it?
Click to expand...
My thread for removing it was based on the fact that it was contradicted by the fact that at that point in the story, the speed of light was treated as the fastest thing in the verse.

As time went on, this stopped being the case, but FTL+ during this particular arc is contradicted by in-universe statements
 
AstaDragon said:
Nozel speed Relativistic+ (0.89c) But he can compete with a Dark Elf who has FTL speed?
Click to expand...
You keep misunderstanding that you can keep up with someone to a degree and still be slower. In this case, Nozel blocked ranged attacks from Patry and then trapped him to use his magic against him. Hardly what I'd consider qualifying for FTL
 
CloverDragon03 said:
You keep misunderstanding that you can keep up with someone to a degree and still be slower. In this case, Nozel blocked ranged attacks from Patry and then trapped him to use his magic against him. Hardly what I'd consider qualifying for FTL
Click to expand...

You know that Statements are contradicted by themselves. And it was completely refuted since there was Demon light magic. Demon light magic was superior to Light magic in every aspect, including speed.It's just that Demon light magic isn't specified how much faster it is than Light magic. So it wouldn't be surprising if Eagle Vs Lion cals were to be used again.
 
AstaDragon said:
You know that Statements are contradicted by themselves.
Click to expand...
This is not a contradiction. You can block it and still be slower. Julius literally admits Patry's magic is faster than his
AstaDragon said:
And it was completely refuted since there was Demon light magic. Demon light magic was superior to Light magic in every aspect, including speed.
Click to expand...
Yes, the only thing faster than Light Magic is... an amplified form of Light Magic. This absolutely does not open the floodgates for any kind of magic to be faster than Light Magic.

My disagreement still remains
 
I hate to be that guy, but I'm disagreeing with Julius getting getting his speed back

1. You can still be slower than somebody and still tag them.
2. Julius stated that time magic was slower than light
3. No proof that patry even attempted to dodge his time spell with light. Patry is rel without light aka base which is why he julius' speed scales to that
 
What is so hard to understand. Slower fighters can tag faster fighters. It’s not even a big gap it’s like a 1.1x difference
 
AstaDragon said:
Several months ago, the Black Clover verse received a major speed cut. For that reason,

So I went back and read the Black Clover manga again.From chapters 1-372 and found that it was easy to return to FTL+ again.And I think my reasoning was strong enough for it to actually happen that way.

Statements of Lightspeed​

1.Yami says Patry can dodge attacks at the speed of light.
2.Gauche says that Party's greatest magic attack is light speed.
3.Yami says that Raia, who copied Patry's light magic, can move at the speed of light as well.

Problems of Statements, Light Magic and Julius​

1.Julius says that light magic is faster than his magic. But he can use his magic to attack Patry. Patry can move, dodge. at the speed of light.
2.Light magic is the fastest magic there is but that doesn’t mean is can’t be blocked.If it really was the fastest magic Why was Julius able to use time magic to block the attack? If it really was the fastest magic There was probably no mage who could use defensive magic based on the speed of light magic.
3.Light magic was the highest speed magic. This statement was completely refuted. With the arrival of demon light mgic that is superior to light magic in all aspects, including speed.The story doesn't say how much faster demon light magic is than light magic.

And for the reasons I mentioned I think we should go back to cals FTL+ again.
The story's statements were debunked from the beginning. So I think we should go with Eagle Vs Lion cals again.
I also want to update Julius' Combat speed to light speed. Because he can attack Patry who can move at the speed of light based on this feat.

Agree : @Joshyyy_64 (Julius)

Disagree:mad:Xinsignia1(FTL+ again)

Neutral : @Joshyyy_64 (FTL+ again) @Faa_Tzy @Xinsignia1(Julius)
Click to expand...
You didn't really attack the points given to downgrade.
 
The counter-arguments against the OP seem to make more sense to me.
 
Yeah the OP does look like a lesser version of the last one made on the same topic so I disagree.

The OP’s best bet might be to severe the connections between Nozel and Julius by claiming Nozel is faster (that’s my opinion too anyways, given Nozel canonically outperformed Julius in combat I.e. Julius can’t catch a slower character compared to a way faster character Nozel defeated). That way the overly used argument of “slower characters can fight faster ones” won’t apply given that there is a calc that puts Nozel’s speed above Julius unless a fallacious approach is taken to refute it.

Thats my 2 cents. Do as yall will.
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
Yeah the OP does look like a lesser version of the last one made on the same topic so I disagree.

The OP’s best bet might be to severe the connections between Nozel and Julius by claiming Nozel is faster (that’s my opinion too anyways, given Nozel canonically outperformed Julius in combat I.e. Julius can’t catch a slower character compared to a way faster character Nozel defeated). That way the overly used argument of “slower characters can fight faster ones” won’t apply given that there is a calc that puts Nozel’s speed above Julius unless a fallacious approach is taken to refute it.

Thats my 2 cents. Do as yall will.
Click to expand...
I agree with you about speed combat Nozel is faster than Julius.
 
Joshyyy_64 said:
I hate to be that guy, but I'm disagreeing with Julius getting getting his speed back

1. You can still be slower than somebody and still tag them.
2. Julius stated that time magic was slower than light
3. No proof that patry even attempted to dodge his time spell with light. Patry is rel without light aka base which is why he julius' speed scales to that
Click to expand...
1.So why, in CloverDragon's trade in Black Clover: Immense Speed Downgrade, "But wait, there are two FTL+ calcs, right? Why don't we use those?" he says that Julius even admits that despite anticipating into the future via Time Magic, he can't catch Patry, who moves at the speed of light. If that's the case, then why after Julius started getting serious in chapters 143-144, didn't he get attacked by Patry once, even though Patry was faster than him? But he easily dodged the attack. Should Patry's speed be reduced to Relativistic+ like this? Or would you say "Just because he's faster doesn't mean he can't attack a slower person once."

2. If his magic was really slower, why was he able to use his magic to attack Patry? At that time, Patry appeared before he even cast the magic in his hand.I want you to take a good look at the second picture. And 1 picture where he said “TOO BAD. I ALMOST HAD YOU. YOU REALLY ARE FAST, AREN'T YOU? I'M LOOKING AHEAD, AND YET I STILL CAN'T FULLY CATCH YOU.”Patry said “HE'S TRYING TO TAKE ME ALIVE!” Isn't it? This shows that he only wanted to use Time magic to bind Patry. Julius didn't say that if he used Time magic to attack Patry, he wouldn't be able to attack Patry in time.I conclude that when Julius uses Time magic to attack his enemies, the speed of his magic is equivalent to the speed of light. But if Julius uses Time magic to bind enemies, the speed of his magic will be slower than the speed of light.

3.OHHHH....😑 Didn't you see Patry words when he said "I THOUGHT I HAD DODGED IT..."?
 
AstaDragon said:
1.So why, in CloverDragon's argument in Black Clover: Immense Speed Downgrade, "But wait, there are two FTL+ calcs, right? Why don't we use those?" he says that Julius even admits that despite anticipating into the future via Time Magic, he can't catch Patry, who moves at the speed of light. If that's the case, then why after Julius started getting serious in chapters 143-144, didn't he get attacked by Patry once, even though Patry was faster than him? But he easily dodged the attack. Should Patry's speed be reduced to Relativistic+ like this? Or would you say "Just because he's faster doesn't mean he can't attack a slower person once."

2. If his magic was really slower, why was he able to use his magic to attack Patry? At that time, Patry appeared before he even cast the magic in his hand.I want you to take a good look at the second picture. And 1 picture where he said “TOO BAD. I ALMOST HAD YOU. YOU REALLY ARE FAST, AREN'T YOU? I'M LOOKING AHEAD, AND YET I STILL CAN'T FULLY CATCH YOU.”Patry said “HE'S TRYING TO TAKE ME ALIVE!” Isn't it? This shows that he only wanted to use Time magic to bind Patry. Julius didn't say that if he used Time magic to attack Patry, he wouldn't be able to attack Patry in time.I conclude that when Julius uses Time magic to attack his enemies, the speed of his magic is equivalent to the speed of light. But if Julius uses Time magic to bind enemies, the speed of his magic will be slower than the speed of light.

3.OHHHH....😑 Didn't you see Patry words when he said "I THOUGHT I HAD DODGED IT..."?
Click to expand...
  1. Your own scan answers your question. "He's anticipating faster." That's how he can dodge it, but it's still not enough for him to catch Patry, because he's slower than him.
  2. Thanks for defeating your own argument by explicitly bringing up how Julius explicitly can't catch Patry. You know, a sign of him being slower than him. Are you just trying to stonewall by constantly saying "well why can he attack him" despite me addressing this numerous times? At some point, I'm just not gonna entertain this any longer.
  3. The means by which he dodges this is not specified. The light is only known to be used to blind Julius
AstaDragon said:
So why is Patry, who is actually faster than Julius, but when Julius gets serious, Patry doesn't attack Julius once?
Click to expand...
See #1 above
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Your own scan answers your question. "He's anticipating faster." That's how he can dodge it, but it's still not enough for him to catch Patry, because he's slower than him.
Click to expand...
So Julius should get a Speed comback of speed of light with anticipating, right? Because he used anticipating to make himself able to keep up with Patry's speed.

CloverDragon03 said:
Thanks for defeating your own argument by explicitly bringing up how Julius explicitly can't catch Patry. You know, a sign of him being slower than him. Are you just trying to stonewall by constantly saying "well why can he attack him" despite me addressing this numerous times? At some point, I'm just not gonna entertain this any longer.
Click to expand...
Am I right that if Julius uses Time magic to attack Patry, Patry cannot dodge the attack?
CloverDragon03 said:
The means by which he dodges this is not specified. The light is only known to be used to blind Julius
Click to expand...
I cannot comment on Patry's escape method.
 
AstaDragon said:
So Julius should get a Speed comback of speed of light with anticipating, right? Because he used anticipating to make himself able to keep up with Patry's speed.
Click to expand...
No, because Julius's anticipation is pretty much him seeing into the future. It's Precognition, hence why he has that ability on his profile
AstaDragon said:
Am I right that if Julius uses Time magic to attack Patry, Patry cannot dodge the attack?
Click to expand...
No, because Patry does in fact evade it. Multiple times. That's kinda how he avoided getting captured, y'know?
AstaDragon said:
I cannot comment on Patry's escape method.
Click to expand...
Yeah, neither of us can. That's my point. We'd be making assumptions if we claimed Patry escaped with one method or another, so this becomes kind of a moot point
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Yeah, neither of us can. That's my point. We'd be making assumptions if we claimed Patry escaped with one method or another, so this becomes kind of a moot point
Click to expand...
No, I just realized in this feat that if Patry hadn't dodged Julius' attack, He will turn to dust following his subordinates. But Patry says "I THOUGHT I HAD DODGED IT..." which means he did. Dodged Julius' magic attack but couldn't dodge it. As for how Patry helped his subordinates, no one can answer.

CloverDragon03 said:
No, because Julius's anticipation is pretty much him seeing into the future. It's Precognition, hence why he has that ability on his profile
Click to expand...
I just realized If you say that Julius had to use anticipation to capture Patry, should he don’t have gained speed of light because of anticipation? Then why did Lucius use his PREDICTIONS ability to deal with Yuno? But why did he get the speed MFTL like Yuno?
 
AstaDragon said:
No, I just realized in this feat that if Patry hadn't dodged Julius' attack, He will turn to dust following his subordinates. But Patry says "I THOUGHT I HAD DODGED IT..." which means he did. Dodged Julius' magic attack but couldn't dodge it. As for how Patry helped his subordinates, no one can answer.
Click to expand...
Yeah, Patry couldn't dodge the attack completely. But we don't know if he was moving at light speed when trying to dodge it. His regular speed without his Light Magic is Relativistic, not Speed of Light
AstaDragon said:
I just realized If you say that Julius had to use anticipation to capture Patry, should he don’t have gained speed of light because of anticipation? Then why did Lucius use his PREDICTIONS ability to deal with Yuno? But why did he get the speed MFTL like Yuno?
Click to expand...
Lucius literally mentions in your scan "my speed and predictions" - meaning he's also fast enough to keep up with Yuno and that Yuno is the one struggling to keep up
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Yeah, Patry couldn't dodge the attack completely. But we don't know if he was moving at light speed when trying to dodge it. His regular speed without his Light Magic is Relativistic, not Speed of Light
Click to expand...
Does Party have another magic that allows him to dodge attacks at less than light speed?
 
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