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Black Clover: Lightspeed Downgrade
- Thread starter KingTempest
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- #83
I'll handle that in another thread
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only BoS characters are affected rn. Done in detail in a separate thread ig.
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Disagree with Julius downgrade, and neutral on others. I will try and form a response with scans tomorrow.
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There is so many scans that supports Julius is faster than Patry (Specially that one panel where he causally outpaced a light magic moving 2x faster than it's original speed and patry at the same time) like just pulled a random scans from their fight is enough lol. I can explain this in more details but i will just leave that to the person above me and yea btw i don't agree with the whole thread.
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Reading this, this feels weirdly dismissive. Precognition is quite literally a virtue of speed, you can predict things without necessarily being able to react, and therefore move out of the way of danger.
Yami reacts to his increasing speed, and gets to a point where he does it effortlessly.
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That has nothing to do with the OP at hand
That point was people saying "he blitzed people with raw speed" when 2 of the points was him freezing time and one of them was that Yami said his precognition was worse than Julius's. How does that constitute MFTL.
Precognition is not a virtue of speed. It is a cheat code.
Ki allows you to react to an attack before the attack is even thought to be shot out, allowing them to block.
Not with ki, and he gets tagged
With Ki.
Idk how you can defend "I'm slower than LS" with "I have precognition so I can scale above"
no rush
send a single one
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One thing to point out is that the Patry that Julius fights in the capital is considerably more powerful than the Patry that fought Yami/Asta in the cave. For one, Patry states himself that he is going to get more powerful so that he can defeat Julius. This means he'd be FTL while fighting Julius at the very least. There is a lot more to support Patry increasing his power. One example is that he has a four-leaf clover grimoire, which we know that people who possess such grimoires in Black clover grow at an incredible rate. Furthermore, Rhya, while holding back in his base form, was considered to be an whole other level than Patry. Yet, Patry in the Elf Arc was now equal to Rhya. This would mean that it's likely he bridged the gap in power between him and Rhya. This would be a large increase, though, unquantifiable. But since it would be a large speed increase I don't think it should downgrade him being below FTL.
Furthermore, Julius was likely suppressed in the initial confrontation against Patry, since he stated to Asta that "this was only a small fraction of the power he would need to surpass to become wizard king". We also don't see Julius using Mana Zone at this point. Despite this, Julius, while blinded by Patry's light, was still able to tag Patry from a distance by throwing a time orb.
Whereas Julius actually uses Mana Zone to boost his stats in the capital fight.
So even if this does pass that he isn't 60,000c or whatever, he should still keep his FTL rating for fighting a much more powerful Patry that would make him FTL at the very least.
OP states that Patry saved his comrades at light speed and "blitzed" Julius. Since a suppressed Julius, while blinded, could tag this light-speed Patry from a distance, he should have the light-speed scaling.
This is just completely wrong. Pretty much everything here involves speed, and it doesn't even catalog all of Julius' feats/statements that credit his scaling to still be near the top tiers in the verse.
For one, it's shown that Julius time magic likely has to travel. As in the manga, when Julius traps EOTMS members, he waves their hand at them. In the anime, it actually shows his blue mana travelling to them to capture them. In fact this scene, manga or anime, displays that Julius is a speed-based character.
- From the Novel "The Man Known as Julius", Yuno, Captain Jack, Charlotte aswell as magic knights from the Green Mantis and Blue Rose squad all surrounded a bandit with an unusual ability; Original Sin. Yuno charged in leading to Jack ordering an all out simultaneous assault on Garo(the bandit) which he reacted to. But every single knight present there was paused in time casually by Julius when he arrived without any from the bunch being able to react.
The technique that Julius uses in the LN is the same that he uses to try and kidnap Patry or the EOTMS members. Sure, he stopped time over a large area BUT That's IN Chronostasis. Which is a spell that he needs to both create and launch in order for it to stop time. So this is an instance of him blitzing FTL characters.
- In a different Novel "Captains’ Dinner Party" All 7 Captains were involved in a certain exercise where they were fighting golems and having a hard time doing so due to the golems being able to copy their abilities. A golem was even able to tag and restrain Yami with a copied spell from Rill. With all this going on, Julius eventually arrives and speed blitz all the golems and captured them instantly to the amazement of the captains.
- Chapter 245 of the original manga, Yami states he is not only just using Ki as a form of precognition to react before Dante strikes but also the addition of mana zone, then he blatantly clarifies He's not up to Julius level. While this could still be translated into his precognition being inferior it's still worth inclusiveness to the main point as speed was the foundation for the reference initially.
Now I'd like to add even more evidence that Julius scales to Lucius, which even his base can be considered top tier since it scales beyond 100% Lucifero.
We have the editor note stating that Base Lucius is the same level as Julius. Lucius states that he is stronger than Julius ( equal in base, stronger withPaladin form), and then Asta makes a big deal that he needs to surpass The Wizard King(Julius) to beat Lucius. Basically, this means that Julius is a big deal. Otherwise, Lucius wouldn't have used that as a warning. Julius would not be a big deal to Asta if he wasn't FTL.
At a glance, this seems like it fully contradicts the narrative because Julius couldn't catch Patry. But it makes sense when you put everything together.
1. Julius was holding back his full power against Patry.
OR/AND
2. Lucius was likely forcing Julius to hold back. Lucius needed Julius to lose so that his plan could enact. We know that his Soul Magic allows him to brainwash people, and we know that he can partially effect Julius. Since we know that Lucius needed Julius to lose for his plan, and we know that Julius wasn't using his full power, then it makes the most sense to follow. This makes the most sense within the narrative and backs up the plethora of statements that Julius was far more powerful than FTL+ Characters at the time. Even being faster than Nozel in the aforementioned Light Novel, Nozel being someone who has speed scaling to Amped Dark Elf Patry. Considering this scale: Nozel/Amped DEP > Initial Dark Elf Patry > Elf Patry > Base Patry
It makes more sense to keep Julius upscaled to Base Lucius.
In fact, in this scene, Julius wonders why his time spell ran out early. The final chapter of the spade saga implies that Lucius made his time spell run out earlier, which gives evidence that he can nerf Julius when he wants to. Which again shows why Julius is a top tier, but not able to catch Patry, because Lucius didn't allow it.
3. While in the Spade Raid arc, Julius gets more feats/statements. He implies that his full power could take down the ancient demon. This ancient demon is the rival of the other ancient demon with relative speed scaling to Hellfire Mereoleona, as it nearly landed blows on her several times, despite the size difference providing her an advantage. This was also the wingless version of the demon, meaning the winged one Julius would face should be even faster. If he can defeat the spade demon than he'd have speed scaling to it. Arguably, even his 24-year-old version of himself has the scaling anyways, as he could tag it. Sure, Damnatio nerfed it, but not by much.
4. Around 5 months after Julius was initially turned back into a 13 year old, he actually gets this statement from Lolopechka in the anime canon. Basically implying that they didn't think Julius nor Yami needed their training because of their power. The situation revolves around everyone getting strong enough to fight Vanica, who is stronger than Zagred, and is growing stronger. This doesn't give a direct quantification of his power, but it means they do believe that he's capable. Which would require some form of FTL speed scaling at this point.
So yeah... I don't think a nerfed Julius failing to capture Patry is means for a downgrade considering the other feats and statements that assert he was still a top-tier, even in the beginning of Black Clover's Final Saga.
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Just gonna say that this part right here isn't a good point because the Patry that fought Julius wasn't his Reincarnated self, whereas the Patry and Rhya in your scan that are equal to each other are their Reincarnated selves
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I don't see the difference. Both Patry and Rhya got an elven boost. He went from being weaker than Rhya as humans to being his equal as elves. Very minor point either way.
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Everything you just said useless.
You're listing increases in speed. That would tie on to their base speed, not to the speed of their magic.
Rhya "while holding back" and Patry "who's weaker than held back Rhya" both are capable of utilizing Patry's lightspeed spell and both move at the speed of light. Not faster, not slower.
Because he shot out a small blast.
You fail to comprehend 2 things.
1. "I'm holding back" ≠ "Every ability I use is slower"
2. You can tag people faster than you
He can get that calced. But he would be canonically slower than light, since he said the light is slower than him
You know what you're insisting?
That everyone here scales below him, and since he's slower than light, they'll be slower than light too.
The editor is saying nothing of substance since editor statements aren't automatically canon.
You're making an assumption that it means paladin form counts.
And you're using our stats to justify it.
Your headcanon is contradicting the narrative. Maybe Patry with his light magic is just drastically faster than a lot of people
Or maybe a lot of people here are slower than light.
Yeah.
It means that LS is a cap to much more people than we thought
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I 100% agree with KT here
I don’t see how Julius is relative to Lucius at all in speed. Julius is slower than Patry, who’s slower than Licht, who’s slower than Zagred, who’s slower than the Dark Triad, who’s slower than Lucifero, who’s slower than Lucius… But Julius is Lucius’ equal? Nah miss me with that nonsense
I don’t see how Julius is relative to Lucius at all in speed. Julius is slower than Patry, who’s slower than Licht, who’s slower than Zagred, who’s slower than the Dark Triad, who’s slower than Lucifero, who’s slower than Lucius… But Julius is Lucius’ equal? Nah miss me with that nonsense
Ped2018
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Common mitch W
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While I'm not super knowledgable on the BC novels, I am up to date on the manga, and after reading this thread I'm in agreement with KT. When facing lightspeed opponents (especially in early BC) the strat is always predict and precog their movements to keep up. Yami has his ki precog and Julius has his precog precog. I'm also sharing the same sentiments as Mitch regarding Julius's scaling to Lucius, and I think it makes sense too considering how Julius's magic fuel is not as great in volume as people like Patry much less Lucius, given how he ran out of juice after using that one big spell (which granted it was a massive country ranged spell, Lucius and even far weaker characters are capable of performing these massive scale magics without running out of fuel immediately after). Maybe this last part here is a bit incredulous on my part, but when I was reading/watching the Julius Patry fight and they kept saying that lightspeed > Julius, and no one disagreed, I interpreted that as Julius is slower than light.
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Ped2018
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Ped2018
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.....
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Anyway after answering the post above me, then this can be closed and applied.
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Yami is slower than light. The calc being FTL contradicts this
At the end of the day, calcs are headcanon and statements should take precedence
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As I suspected. Alright.
Thanks everyone for ya input
If I make a thread I hope all of you keep the same energy 
Thanks everyone for ya input
Ped2018
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Disagreed + You need 100 staff input + The Grace period is 1 month + BC gets banned from the wiki + You get the ban alsoAs I suspected. Alright.
Thanks everyone for ya input
If I make a thread I hope all of you keep the same energy
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I apologize for my english in advance.
The reason why patri didn't dodge is because the spell is connected to him, so when Gauche reflected it, he had no way to dodge it. Here we can see that the spell is connected to patri even after being reflected. After Patri gets hit by his own spell he says "i couldnt risk hurting you" which means that patri could have done something about it but he didnt want to hurt Gauche. Also Gauche reflecting the ray of divine punishment is currently calced at 0.22c and Patri is capable of blitzing this gauche easily.
I believe the reason why Yami has a hard time tagging Patri is because Yami is a melee fighter while Patri is a long-range fighter, so when Yami tries to close the distance, all Patri has to do is run away using his travel speed ability to keep his distance from Yami. Dark magic is also stated to be extremely slow, which makes it almost impossible for Yami to tag patri from long range. Despite Patri having all those advantages Yami still managed to tag him and Raia and also keep up with him in cqc.
Patry did not blitz Julius, as we can see here, and Julius that tagged Patri was blinded by light and not even using mana zone. Patri also states that he thought he dodged it, which means that Patri reacted and tried to dodge Julius attack while traveling a short distance at light speed.
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That’s wild
Epsilon_R
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His travel speed may be slower but not his combat speed.
He also tagged Raia while he was moving at lightspeed
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You can tag someone and still be slower
Also no, his overall speed is slower. Lightspeed being a cap was said to be generally about speed, not combat speed, travel speed, or anything specific. Just speed in general
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He considers the speed of light magic remarkable and faster than he is.
If he was 12000 times faster than it, even if it was just combat speed, it will go against the narrative itself and his own words.
So I still agree with the downgrade, I'm not sure who thought making them MFTL+ was a good idea to begin with or remotely accurate.
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Lol Yami and the BoS characters were never MFTL+ to begin with. Those are characters that are many blitz levels faster than BoS characters, Yami and Patry.
Xinsignia1
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Debatable, Patry didn't just randomly generate that power, waysthat power was actually stored over an x amount of time, hence why he had to release the seal[/URL] Also, there's a caveat to Julius's time magic that I think some folks may have forgotten/overlooked.
Julius has pretty high magical power, he canocally has more magical power than quite a few named royals. What he expended wasn't just magical power, it was stored/stockpiled time which requires a prerequisite to be generated and used, and that prerequisite is that that time has to be stolen from someone else because that's the nature of his time magic.
Julius time magic actually steals time from opponents in its most basic form, which can then be stock piled and used for later in non-lethal ways (healing, pausing, reversing, and potentially pausing) So in order for Julius to use the more versatile aspects of his time spells (such as time reversal, ect) those aspects of time need to actually be stored/stolen prior battle. The default of his time magic is deterioration. If he didn't store time before hand, he would only launch attack spells, which are lethal to targets he's trying to capture (Patry)
The thing is Julius was holding back his magical power. Throughout the entire battle he was trying to capture Patry (not kill him because he was in Williams body) considering the nature of his time magic is to steal time from his targets by default) increasing his output could easily dust a target, hence why he was holding back. Moreover, holding back your magical power has quite a few ramifications. It reduces your stats and performance (so durability, speed, reaction time ect) moreover, the correlation between speed and magical power
was already accepted here
so he was fighting Patry nerfed pretty much the whole fight.
Doubling your magical power output double its speed + overall stats as well. So there's a direct correlation between how much magical power you release and your stats. So Julius holding back his power reduces all of his abilities.
The more stored non-lethal timespells Julius expends, the more he has to steal from others to replenish. Not using any attack spells on Patry, means that he's not gaining back any time to store, which severely limits his capabilities.
So him holding back his power prevents his strength + speed, that would include his precog too. Patry evading Julius is product of his reduced speed/holding back to prevent harm from coming to William.
Patry even implies that Julius saw his attack coming, but could not cancel the spell to evade since everyone would die.
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If all you want to do is capture someone and not kill them, there is literally 0 reason to hold back your speed. Hold back strength? Sure, you wanna capture, not kill them. Hold back your speed? No, that's antithetical to catching someone. If Julius was faster than Patry, then nothing besides CIS is stopping him from blitzing Patry and capturing him with time magic. Ig you can just say Julius is stupid, but afaik he's supposed to be one of the smarter characters in the series.
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On a semi-related note, Lucius could’ve also ****** up his magic thus his stats. At the end of the day an un-nerfed Julius would at the very most be FTL+ considering he would probably scale to his brother in his base (Lucius) before eating the devil heart.
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this headcanon about every damn antifeat of julius being cause lucius nerfed him is insanely aggravating
it started when the demons came.
stop using it for the entirety of the damn canon
it started when the demons came.
stop using it for the entirety of the damn canon
Xinsignia1
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Apologies if I was unclear. Im saying that your speed and strength increase proportionately, and that depends on the amount of magical power you release, it's not just one or the other. Accessing higher quantities of magical power usually involves either a transformation (spirit dive, black musha warrior Ichika, awakened half manifested Lucifero form, paladin Lucius ect) or actively raising it in one go like Yami simply applying it to one aspect, and not the other has yet to be shown. That's like switching between transformations on or off mid battle. Process wise, accessing higher levels of magical power has similar caveats to transformations you don't just turn it on or off until you're done or KO'd.
Lowering his magical power esures he won't dust Patry, since it's been implied that it's difficult for him tone done his offensive spells moreover, despite being vastly superior to the member of the EOMS members that attacked the royal capital he stated that capturing them would have been too difficult hence why he killed some of them to make it more manageable. If non-lethal attacks requires stored time, then I think it tracts.
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Why would Julius reduce his own magic to begin with? He doesn't use physical attacks or damage attacks, but simply spells that paralyze the target in time. He could be 6-A and he would pick up anything without damaging it
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So if you're not attacking you're immobile?
If you aren't releasing any magic power, you're just not moving?
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Again, Julius doesn't need to nerf himself at all if he's just flying around trying to use time magic to capture Patry. The only time Julius would need to nerf his magic is when he fires an attack that can deal damage, since he doesn't want to kill Patry. That does not translate to "oh I'm going to intentionally slow myself down so I physically cannot keep up with this opponent and thus jeprodize the safety of my country". None of what you say answers why Julius wouldn't have just blitzed and used his chronostasis to capture Patry off rip if he was so much faster. It's not consistent with Julius's character to be that stupid.
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