Black Clover: Immense Speed Downgrade

[SunDaGamer]

The image you linked literally has Ichika using Zetten

No, the image I linked shows Base Ichika dodging Asta's swing with Asta noting how easily she evades him.

1). Later we see how Ichika uses Zetten when she fights for real and it's nothing like this mock battle. She also confirms she'd been holding back before.

Ichika transformed in their second fight and then Zetten is stacked on top of that. Asta's fear at the end of their first fight when Ichika is about to use the last Zetten of that fight also indicates that Zetten was a higher amp than all of the other Zettens she fired previously yet Asta still blocks it in time.

2.) She perception blitzed him when she wanted to end the fight meaning the only reason Asta could block her Zetten is because she let him.

There's no indication of a perception blitz, that's just a regular blitz to reaction by default unless you can prove Ichika moved so fast Asta's eyes never registered her moving at all plus that was a worn out Base Asta who just got hit hard enough to be knocked out of his Black form. Ichika didn't even use Zetten to slap him and still knocked him out.

Also as mentioned in my previous post, Ichika notes how Zetten increases your speed both directly and through increasing Yoryoku which is magic power and unless you want to disagree with this entire reply section on Magic power increasing speed to some extent there's really no room for discussion on if Zetten increases your speed.

I never disagreed that Zetten amped speed, just that Zetten not amping speed 1:1 with AP provides more evidence for the op's argument

 

[Nierre]

i agree that there isn't any proof that MP increases AP and Speed linearly .

 

[YeahhBoyee]

I never disagreed that Zetten amped speed, just that Zetten not amping speed 1:1 with AP provides more evidence for the op's argument

Ok so we aren't disagreeing then? I never said Zetten was 1:1 with AP.

Also you did not address any of my arguments like how Ichika was massively holding back her Zetten so you can't say that Zetten in general cannot be a significant upgrade from base speed. Here is an example of Ichika using Zetten twice yet Asta states she wasn't even serious DESPITE using Zetten. You cannot say "Zetten is not a significant speed amp" based on Asta reacting to Zetten when its canon that Ichika was massively holding back her Zetten and not even using her Dark Magic, let alone a full power Zetten which is a massive power amp along with speed that Ichika states could have killed Asta if she unleashed it there.

Again you seem to not disagree with the general notion of Zetten being a speed amp yet are also downplaying it, so im not sure what you are arguing for here.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Ok so we aren't disagreeing then?

Also you did not address any of my arguments like how Ichika was massively holding back her Zetten so you can't say that Zetten in general cannot be a significant upgrade from base speed. Here is an example of Ichika using Zetten twice yet Asta states she wasn't even serious DESPITE using Zetten. You cannot say "Zetten is not a significant speed amp" based on Asta reacting to Zetten when its canon that Ichika was massively holding back her Zetten and not even using her Dark Magic, let alone a full power Zetten which is a massive power amp along with speed that could have killed Asta if she unleashed it there.

Again you seem to not disagree with the general notion of Zetten being a speed amp yet are also downplaying it, so im not sure what you are arguing for here.

That scan you're using as evidence is literally Asta saying Ichika hadn't been serious before their first fight. Ichika not using Dark Magic is irrelevant when the point is Asta is struggling to keep up with Base Ichika but can still block her Zettens amping her physicals, even if we used a low amp of 2x for those Zettens then Asta would be easily outsped by those attacks if they boosted speed by a significant amount like with AP. I've also brought up the final Zetten of that fight being narratively framed as having a higher amp than the others because of Asta having such a fearful reaction to it compared to the rest of her Zettens up until that point.

 

[YeahhBoyee]

That scan you're using as evidence is literally Asta saying Ichika hadn't been serious before their first fight.

You cannot be seriously suggesting Ichika was serious, she was not using Dark Magic whatsoever, that is like Asta losing to Yami in a swordfight without Yami even cloaking his sword.

Here is Ichika directly stating she was holding back before.

Here is the editor note stating Ichika finally gets serious on their second battle.

Ichika not using Dark Magic is irrelevant

You are claiming Ichika is fighting Asta seriously in what is described in the manga as a mock battle, the fact you ignore her literally turning off her Dark magic is very relevant for striking that claim down.

when the point is Asta is struggling to keep up with Base Ichika but can still block her Zettens amping her physicals, even if we used a low amp of 2x for those Zettens then Asta would be easily outsped by those attacks if they boosted speed by a significant amount like with

I am glad you are acknowledging that there are levels to Zetten. Ichika using Zetten on five bandits does not have the same power as Ichika using Zetten to behead a mountain-sized dragon. I am glad that's cleared up.

However, you cannot scale amp. You randomly invent a figure of x2 when we have no idea what exactly the percentage is, which by itself renders your claim that Asta could not have reacted to Ichika's purposefully low amped Zetten invalid. Secondly, Asta has Anti-magic which reduces Yoryoku meaning that Zetten, a technique that massively increases Yoryoku, is inherently less effective against him. Thirdly, he was completely unable to dodge it even in nerfed state and barely managed to block with Ki pre-cog, Anti-magic nerfing it and Ichika also nerfing her own Zetten.

I've also brought up the final Zetten of that fight being narratively framed as being a higher amp than the others because of Asta having such a fearful reaction to it compared to the rest of her Zettens up until that point.

h e a d c a n o n

here is Asta pissing himself at Ichika using Zetten for the very first time and then later states she was not even serious. Even if this panel wouldn't exist that last assertion is just purely headcanon.

 

[Deceived3596]

After reading through everything, I ultimately agree with this thread.

I'll start off by saying I don't find the Zora argument convincing at all, I can understand the reasoning of assuming a conversation between two characters while under stressful scenarios could cause unintended consequences, like incorrect information being unchecked by those knowledgeable. I just don't see the statement working under that scenario however, I believe the author genuinely does believe Zora's magical trap does double the force and speed of the magical attack he's reflecting back. I don't believe he would have his characters say this if he didn't want that idea conveyed to his readers.

I however don't believe the existence of that statement, and multiple feats of characters getting faster and stronger the more magic they have/use is enough evidence to assume every and all instance of increase is ratioed to a 1-1 level. Especially when feats don't support the conclusions reached by those multipliers.

On this wiki we need decently concrete evidence, both in amount of scans and in consistency, before we can discard the inherent problem of lacking feats supporting that level of increase. I don't believe the evidence gathered is enough to address that issue concretely.

It's because of this that I agree with removing the multipliers until further evidence is provided to address that issue.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Hey everyone,

Why is Black Clover's speed so high?

So as many of you may know I am responsible for the current speed scaling of black clover.

First of all I want to apologize for not properly checking the speed changes for what was accepted and what wasn't accepted. This led to the speed scaling going as high as 188400c, when the true accepted value was around 12000c.

The changes that was done outside of my knowledge were done in good faith using the logic that was accepted and after finding out I was laid back about it instead of changing it back to what was accepted.

As for why Black Clover's speed was accepted to be 12000c. Here is how it truly works:

In Black Clover, when magic power is boosted, both speed and power increases [1]. So to prove that Speed and Magic increase 1:1, just like Magic Power and AP i brought up examples in the manga.

• Zora has the ability to double the speed and power of a spell, and he does this by absorbing the magic and doubling its power.
• Magna who is vastly slower than Dante, became comparable to him in speed after equalizing their magic power. Keep in mind that Dante needed 80% to keep up with Yami who was blitzing him at 60%. So magna needed to equalize their magic power so that he can also keep up with him.
• Characters amp themselves to counter Zora's amped attacks some of which are as shown below in the scaling all of you guys accepted in the OP.

Rage Power Langris, who is 2x faster than his base form due to intercepting his own base form's attacks reflected at double the speed;

(Lucifero) - Matched the speed of a punch that was twice his casual speed,

So these examples prove that the relationship between speed increase and magic increase is linear. And 12000c comes from characters who scale above other characters with quantifiable magic amps [2][3][4].

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Problems with Black Clover's Speed Scaling​

Lets look at what is considered problems with the scaling.

1. Zora's Trap Magic???


There are things that are wrong here.

First I would like to say that Zora is not a key part of this scaling but a key part in proving that Magic and Speed are linear.

@Nierre has already touched on the structure and Tone of @CloverDragon03's arguments and how we wouldn't apply it to any other series so I won't go into that area. However I will say this.

The notion that the only evidence that Zora doubles magic was just the fact that Zora didn't disagree with what Asta said is wrong. Infact he did agree.

"That thing where you double magic and bounce it back" - Asta

Then Zora proceeds to say "Besides just doubling it (magic) won't be enough to throw them off"

Then against Lucifero, Zora says this:

"All that magic I just took goes into my right fist.. I am going to pay you back double"

So yeah Zora does not correct Asta because Asta is correct, Zora himself refers to magic being doubled and Mimosa would not even have been a credible source without this fact because all she had going for her was her magic detection specialty.

In conclusion, Zora doubles magic to double the speed and power of spells.

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2. Inconsistencies with this Scaling

So, when this multiplier stacking was accepted, it was deemed that there were no inconsistencies with it, thus making it reasonable to implement this. However, as I've recently found, this is actually not the case... at all, actually. I will go ahead and list off examples of these inconsistencies:

• Supposedly, 100% Dante is 500x faster than Magna despite being tagged by him here
• An amped Mermaid Form Valkyrie Dress Noelle matches 50-51% Vanica's speed and is still even with her at 65-67%. Also, in the former scan, Noelle only notes that Vanica got a power boost from her 1% increase in Devil Power usage. There's no mention of speed.
• Gauche, Grey, Gordon, and Sally are all comparable in speed to one another. Sally then boosts her magic tenfold, but doesn't react to Grey changing her magic's properties until after it's already happened

Yes you are correct. When 12000c was accepted it was deemed reasonable because that there were no inconsistencies with it. These inconsistencies you outlines are not inconsistences but rather poor interpretation of events.

• As said many times in this thread, 100% Dante always allows himself to be tagged. Dante was just confused as to who sent a weak fireball towards him. There was smoke everywhere so he couldn't tell who. If Magna tagged 100% Dante, can you explain why Magna can not blitz 50% Dante after stealing half of his magic power? Yami could blitz 60% Dante but 80% Dante turned this around, yet you are saying that Magna can tag 100% Dante while struggling against 50% Dante after getting a huge amp? Obviously that doesn't make any sense because scaling Magna to Dante in any way off of that is wrong. Obviously Magna can't tag a Dante without invincibility complex. [2]
• As i said in one of the threads. Mana Zone and Mana Method are speed amps. Both of them were pumped into Noelle to keep up with Vanica's %. The more % Vanica gained the faster she becomes just like Dante vs Yami when Dante turned around a speed blitz by raising his Magic Power%. If you notice you will see Queen Lolopechka continuously pouring amps into Noelle to keep up with Vanica's % all the way to the end. So this is not an inconsistency. There was only mention of a magic power noost, we already know that magic power is tied to both speed and AP. [1][2]
• Sally was obviously distracted so they snuck up on her. Notice how she was still distracted even after Grey was multiplied. She only realized while she was losing balance after her magic was turned to flowers.

---

The little things have already been addressed by @Xinsignia1, @Nierre and @BlackAstaSenpai's initial posts.

So now that there are no inconsistencies and problems with the originally accepted speed scaling. So I want change the ratings back to 12000c based on the fact that a magic boost is also a speed boost proportionally based on multiple narrative instances where characters affect speed directly by just manipulating the magic power like Zora, Magna and multiple other characters who can keep up with amped speeds by merely amping their own magic power.

Thanks for waiting patiently for my post if you did. I have a lot of things going on irl.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Here is Ichika directly stating she was holding back before.

She literally transforms right after saying that, that's like saying Base Goku is holding back his Base power because he didn't transform into Super Saiyan during a fight.

You are claiming Ichika is fighting Asta seriously in what is described in the manga as a mock battle, the fact you ignore her literally turning off her Dark magic is very relevant for striking that claim down.

Ichika holding back or being serious in her Base form is irrelevent, the fact is that Asta was struggling to keep up with her speed whether or not she was suppressed in her base state and then Zetten is an amp of her physicals from whatever state she's in.

I am glad you are acknowledging that there are levels to Zetten. Ichika using Zetten on five bandits does not have the same power as Ichika using Zetten to behead a mountain-sized dragon. I am glad that's cleared up.

Asta's statement about how much power Ichika's Zetten had against those bandits is literally the basis for why we consider Zetten to be a 20x multiplier, and if she used that multiplier against those bandits then you're premise is implying that she used a higher multiplier against Black Asta (who should scale far above those bandits) which is actually in favor of my point. Ichika's Zetten against the Five Headed Dragon was also an amp on top of Dark Cloaked Black Musha which is an overall multiplier of 4000x as is accepted.

However, you cannot scale amp. You randomly invent a figure of x2 when we have no idea what exactly the percentage is, which by itself renders your claim that Asta could not have reacted to Ichika's purposefully low amped Zetten invalid. Secondly, Asta has Anti-magic which reduces Yoryoku meaning that Zetten, a technique that massively increases Yoryoku, is inherently less effective against him. Thirdly, he was completely unable to dodge it even in nerfed state and barely managed to block with Ki pre-cog, Anti-magic nerfing it and Ichika also nerfing her own Zetten.

Considering Zetten is accepted as at least a 20x multiplier, a 2x multiplier is a pretty conservative lowball. Your second point is also irrelevant because we're talking about speed, not AP unless you're saying Black Asta passively nerfed the speed of that Zetten before it even came into contact with him. Your third point is only in favor of my argument again because Asta still reacted to it with a solid block.

h e a d c a n o n

here is Asta pissing himself at Ichika using Zetten for the very first time and then later states she was not even serious. Even if this panel wouldn't exist that last assertion is just purely headcanon.

Earlier on you said Ichika using Zetten on 5 bandits is going to be a lower level and that same scene shows Ichika using Dark Magic then we get the statement from Asta that got the 20x Zetten multiplier accepted meanwhile Ichika doesn't even use Dark Magic in her Zettens against Black Asta (which you have used to make a point about Ichika not being serious). Ichika never says she wasn't serious in that confrontation either. Asta isn't scared of any of the other Zettens during that fight (1 2 3) but is terrified of her last Zetten, presumably sensing the Ki in that strike, and blocking it left him open to a direct attack that knocked him out of his Black form, that's some pretty blatant narrative framing.

 

[KingTempest]

Disclaimer

Yami's regular speed never blitzed Dante

It was an Iai attack

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Alright so I only got one question:

When Ichika uses Zetten and gets 20x stronger and faster, does she just one shot blitz Asta or what?

Cause it would make no sense if she didn’t do that if AP and Speed are linked linearly. If “at least 20x” is the baseline for Zetten and she considers Asta a better enemy than the random bandit guys, then bro should have been blitzed terribly.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Disclaimer

Yami's regular speed never blitzed Dante

It was an Iai attack

Yeah it wasn’t his regular speed of course, It only possible with mana zone condensed spell to boost the speed of his iai slash to those levels.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

When Ichika uses Zetten and gets 20x stronger and faster, does she just one shot blitz Asta or what?

No because Asta can use precog and instinctive reactions to block so she has to wait until he loses concentration. Its only an attack speed multiplier after all.

 

[YeahhBoyee]

She literally transforms right after saying that, that's like saying Base Goku is holding back his Base power because he didn't transform into Super Saiyan during a fight.


Ichika holding back or being serious in her Base form is irrelevent, the fact is that Asta was struggling to keep up with her speed whether or not she was suppressed in her base state and then Zetten is an amp of her physicals from whatever state she's in.

Irrelevant? How? Ichika is very clearly saying that she had been holding back in the previous mock battle which she referred to as "training", which makes sense because it is a mock battle. She even states that she would have killed Asta if she had used her full power on him. The editor states that Ichika is finally getting serious. She starts using Mana Zone which massively amps her magic power and reaction speed directly buffing her Zetten. She was massively holding back.

You keep saying Asta struggled with Ichika's base form but keep ignoring how nerfed her Zetten is. Ichika is nerfing her Zetten to a point where even Asta can react to it, it's that simple. Even in her base form, she can reach speeds easily exceeding her nerfed Zetten speed. Nothing about this is a inconsistency as you originally claimed. The exact same way she can nerf her Zetten to NOT have Mountain-class AP when attacking and not even break a wall (which is how the bandits survived Zetten) she can nerf her Zetten speed to not uber-blitz Asta and instead have him react to it. The only way your argument would stand is if Ichika had not been holding back, which is why the fact she is holding back is extremely relevant. I don't know why you said it's irrelevant.

Ichika holding back or being serious in her Base form is irrelevent,

Again, why is it irrelevant? Why do you keep saying relevant things are irrelevant.

the fact is that Asta was struggling to keep up with her speed whether or not she was suppressed in her base state and then Zetten is an amp of her physicals from whatever state she's in.

Yes, exactly... she was able to speedblitz Asta in base with no Zetten and also able to dodge Asta's attacks in base with 0 effort, showing how far above that version of Asta she was. She used no Dark magic and didn't even use her sword mostly and just slapped and kicked him around, it's hard to understate how outmatched Asta was.

So when she uses Zetten, she could logically uber-blitz him if she wanted to. So the reason she does not, is because she is holding back for which there is countless proof.

You seem to think that this supports your point when all it proves is how much Ichika had been holding back, so the notion that Ichika's Zetten was anywhere close to full power - and therefore indicative of the general speed amp Zetten provides - is completely ridiculous. Once again, she literally says her going all out would have KILLED Asta, so please stop trying to argue Ichika was serious in the first battle.

---

Asta's statement about how much power Ichika's Zetten had against those bandits is literally the basis for why we consider Zetten to be a 20x multiplier, and if she used that multiplier against those bandits then you're premise is implying that she used a higher multiplier against Black Asta (who should scale far above those bandits) which is actually in favor of my point. Ichika's Zetten against the Five Headed Dragon was also an amp on top of Dark Cloaked Black Musha which is an overall multiplier of 4000x as is accepted.

I don't know where you have x20 from, Asta indictates twice that Zetten is a x10 speed boost. Here are the panels. If the wiki says x20, cool, it doesn't change anything because it's proven Ichika can hold back Zetten from the mere fact that she didn't wipe out the entire town square when using Zetten.

I have no idea why you are saying that i said she used a x20 multiplier against bandits. The part you're responding to is merely stating Ichika was holding back against the bandits, which i've proven beyond doubt Asta and Ichika both state that, if you disagree with that you're disagreeing with the manga at this point.

It's very, very, very obvious Ichika uses a higher amp against Asta in the rematch. Seeing as Asta states that Ichika had not been serious up until their first battle [so against the bandits], then in their second battle Ichika claims that she is now going to finally using her full power [and no longer cares if it kills him], proving beyond any negotiability that Ichika used less power against the bandits then she used against Asta in the mock battle, and less against Asta in the mock battle than in the serious battle. Three seperate stages of Zetten usage. We have no way to measure how much Zetten she used in the first two battles, and that we know the last battle is Ichika's power ceiling and she most likely used Zetten at 100% power. So the idea of putting any multiplier on it, even if i were to go along with the assumption that Zetten is a general baseline x20 boost, is headcanon.

I don't know what this x4000 multiplier is about or where it came from, and it's irrelevant, our argument revolves around the fact that you are discrediting Zetten based on Asta being able to partially dodge a low amp Zetten from Ichika. I don't know what relevance Ichika's actions beyond the two fights against Asta have here and why you brought it up. I am not discrediting your argument here, i just honestly have no idea where you were going with this.

---

Considering Zetten is accepted as at least a 20x multiplier, a 2x multiplier is a pretty conservative lowball. Your second point is also irrelevant because we're talking about speed, not AP unless you're saying Black Asta passively nerfed the speed of that Zetten before it even came into contact with him. Your third point is only in favor of my argument again because Asta still reacted to it with a solid block.

It is headcanon, it is not conservative, it's purely headcanon. Show me a calc or evidence that supports the number x2. We saw that Ichika was able to blitz and one-shot Asta in base form with no Zetten, no Dark magic and no sword. It's hard to overstate how outclassed Asta was in that mock battle. Also: You were the one who stated that Zetten's AP increase would not necessarily come with a 1:1 increase in speed, which is correct, so i don't know why you would assume a x2 multiplier to herself via Zetten would result in doubling her speed, aren't you contradicting yourself?

Your second point is also irrelevant because we're talking about speed, not AP unless you're saying Black Asta passively nerfed the speed of that Zetten before it even came into contact with him. Your third point is only in favor of my argument again because Asta still reacted to it with a solid block.

So far you've ignored multiple of my arguments saying they're irrelevant with no other counter. Like saying "Ichika not using any Dark magic is irrelevant" when discussing if she was holding back.

We are talking about speed, not AP

Zetten buffs both by pushing your Yoryoku to its maximum limit, how would she turn off the AP buff while retaining the speed of a full-power Zetten??

unless you're saying Black Asta passively nerfed the speed of that Zetten before it even came into contact with him.

I've sent you the relevant panel in my last reply with bold text, please read it this time. Asta is able to passively nerf magic around him, lowering the Yoryoku level of any attack that is sent his way. It is even stated that it's enough to completely nullify simple spells, just passively by existing with Anti-magic around him and i've also included the panel where it states that Zetten's core mechanic is explosively raising Yoryoku by releasing it all at once, which is where the speed amp stems from - as discussed multiple times throughout this reply section, magic power increases speed. There is debate on wheter or not it is 1:1 but it absolutely correlates resulting in the speed amp. So yes, Black Asta is passively nerfing the speed of Zetten and any magic that comes into contact with him.

It's beyond a doubt that she is holding back, their first battle was supposed to be a mock battle for training Asta, this not a context in which Ichika would be going anywhere near full power, Ichika states multiple times she is holding back, the editor states she is holding back, she is not using Dark Magic, we know conclusively that Zetten can be used conservatively based off this panel and also the fact that Ichika can limit her Zetten to only cut a bamboo tree in half and then later use the same technique to behead a mountain sized dragon-god. I am done debating if she held back in the first battle, it's not up to interpretation.

Your third point is only in favor of my argument again because Asta still reacted to it with a solid block.

Yes, he reacted to a nerfed Zetten that was nerfed again by his Anti-Magic. He would have also been able to react to the Zetten that sent those five fodder bandits flying. Does that mean Zetten sucks and doesn't actually amp speed by that much? Or does that mean Ichika was holding back during the mock battle because she wasn't trying to kill Asta?

Earlier on you said Ichika using Zetten on 5 bandits is going to be a lower level and that same scene shows Ichika using Dark Magic then we get the statement from Asta that got the 20x Zetten multiplier accepted meanwhile Ichika doesn't even use Dark Magic in her Zettens against Black Asta (which you have used to make a point about Ichika not being serious).

Ichika did not use a spell, her grimoire (scroll in Hino country) wasn't even out, so she did not use any Dark magic. She was emitting Dark magic the same way Yami does when he's angry because those bandits pissed her off. When she fights Asta, she does not have her sword coated and her grimoire is not out.

When she fights seriously, like her re-match with Asta or her fight against the dragon, her grimoire is out and her sword is coated with Dark magic. She is even using Mana Zone Black Orb to further increase her reaction speed and further increase the Mana she can use by using Mana from her environment, which she then pours into Zetten as Zetten uses all of the magic power available to you in one blow.

So even if we did not know that she was holding back, even if you didn't ignore the multitude of statement, her Zetten is already massively more powerful just by using Mana Zone technique due to the increase in speed and power that Mana Zone grants, not even accounting for the Dark Magic itself.

Ichika never says she wasn't serious in that confrontation either.

Yes, she does. Three times, here you go.

Asta isn't scared of any of the other Zettens during that fight (1 2 3) but is terrified of her last Zetten, presumably sensing the Ki in that strike, and blocking it left him open to a direct attack that knocked him out of his Black form, that's some pretty blatant narrative framing.

You are powerscaling based off reaction faces, i am not entertaining this non-argument until you provide actual proof that her final Zetten was more powerful.

---

 

[YeahhBoyee]

Yeah it wasn’t his regular speed of course, It only possible with mana zone condensed spell to boost the speed of his iai slash to those levels.

Also worth noting that Dante is holding back in order to capture Yami alive. He arguably doesn't even start taking the fight seriously until Yami uses Death Thrust.

 

[speedster352]

I agree with the op

 

[CloverDragon03]

In Black Clover, when magic power is boosted, both speed and power increases [1]. So to prove that Speed and Magic increase 1:1, just like Magic Power and AP i brought up examples in the manga.

• Zora has the ability to double the speed and power of a spell, and he does this by absorbing the magic and doubling its power.
• Magna who is vastly slower than Dante, became comparable to him in speed after equalizing their magic power. Keep in mind that Dante needed 80% to keep up with Yami who was blitzing him at 60%. So magna needed to equalize their magic power so that he can also keep up with him.
• Characters amp themselves to counter Zora's amped attacks some of which are as shown below in the scaling all of you guys accepted in the OP.

So these examples prove that the relationship between speed increase and magic increase is linear. And 12000c comes from characters who scale above other characters with quantifiable magic amps [2][3][4].

---

Lets look at what is considered problems with the scaling.

I'll start here since the before this is just an apology for the scale going higher than it was intended to, which doesn't really affect anything argument-wise.

First off, the only one who even remotely shows such a 1:1 relationship between AP and speed is Zora himself. Well, him and Langris. That's literally it (so idk why you said "characters", as in plural, when it's only one). Other characters just get faster to some unknown degree. This is also not even mentioning the existence of dedicated speed amps which don't require an increase in magic, such as Leg Strength Boost, Base Run Gamble, and Yami's Iai Slash (the Iai Slash is faster than Yami's regular Mana Zone: Condense btw, he specifically mentions that his Iai attacks never miss in Mana Zone: Condense)

And as for Magna, I must again reiterate that Magna is not vastly slower than Dante, which I will get to later in this post.

1. Zora's Trap Magic???


There are things that are wrong here.

First I would like to say that Zora is not a key part of this scaling but a key part in proving that Magic and Speed are linear.

@Nierre has already touched on the structure and Tone of @CloverDragon03's arguments and how we wouldn't apply it to any other series so I won't go into that area. However I will say this.

The notion that the only evidence that Zora doubles magic was just the fact that Zora didn't disagree with what Asta said is wrong. Infact he did agree.

"That thing where you double magic and bounce it back" - Asta

Then Zora proceeds to say "Besides just doubling it (magic) won't be enough to throw them off"

So did you want him to go "well actually it's the power and speed of the spell, not the magic itself" when they're desperately arguing on whether or not to go back and save Mereoleona? Like... really?

Also, "it" can mean either the magic or just the power and speed. It's a pronoun.

Then against Lucifero, Zora says this:

"All that magic I just took goes into my right fist.. I am going to pay you back double"

So yeah Zora does not correct Asta because Asta is correct, Zora himself refers to magic being doubled and Mimosa would not even have been a credible source without this fact because all she had going for her was her magic detection specialty.

In conclusion, Zora doubles magic to double the speed and power of spells.

---

This doesn't prove anything. In fact, it actually supports my point, because despite Zora doubling up the power and speed, the amount of magic in his fist is just "the magic he just took." The magic he just took would be that of Lucifero's punch, not doubled up.

So in conclusion, this is very flimsy. And even if you were to say Zora doubles the magic itself, he's the only one who has shown such a capability, so I don't know why you'd apply it to everyone else anyway.

• As said many times in this thread, 100% Dante always allows himself to be tagged. Dante was just confused as to who sent a weak fireball towards him. There was smoke everywhere so he couldn't tell who. If Magna tagged 100% Dante, can you explain why Magna can not blitz 50% Dante after stealing half of his magic power? Yami could blitz 60% Dante but 80% Dante turned this around, yet you are saying that Magna can tag 100% Dante while struggling against 50% Dante after getting a huge amp? Obviously that doesn't make any sense because scaling Magna to Dante in any way off of that is wrong. Obviously Magna can't tag a Dante without invincibility complex. [2]

I've seen this argument repeatedly, and it completely ignores the context of the scene. Dante noticed the Ash Magic, then was suddenly hit by the Exploding Fireball. He's evidently confused at what's going on, evidenced by the "...?" speech bubble showcasing his reaction. Your extrapolation of the events simply doesn't hold up.

You've gotta understand just how massive a 500x speed gap is. With such a gap, Dante could register the fireball's existence, walk away, buy a whole ass smoothie, come back, and then swat it away in the time it took for it to reach him. As for how Magna can tag 100% Dante, it's simple: Dante was off-guard. He didn't allow himself to be hit, rather he wasn't on guard and was thus hit in the process. So as a result, Magna is somewhat comparable to 100% Dante, but slower. This also explains how he ends up keeping up with 50% Dante, and even outpacing him repeatedly. His speed is unchanged.

Saying that scaling Magna to Dante in any sort of way off of that is wrong is simply an argument from incredulity, not something with an actual basis.

• As i said in one of the threads. Mana Zone and Mana Method are speed amps. Both of them were pumped into Noelle to keep up with Vanica's %. The more % Vanica gained the faster she becomes just like Dante vs Yami when Dante turned around a speed blitz by raising his Magic Power%. If you notice you will see Queen Lolopechka continuously pouring amps into Noelle to keep up with Vanica's % all the way to the end. So this is not an inconsistency. There was only mention of a magic power noost, we already know that magic power is tied to both speed and AP. [1][2]

Dante never turned around a speed blitz. Yami never used his Iai attacks against 80% Dante, so he simply went from keeping up with Yami to outspeeding him, which is a lot less impressive. Also, Loropechika isn't constantly amping Noelle, her Mana Zone is simply giving Noelle a fixed amp (and weakening Vanica, obviously). Mana Zone and Mana Method being speed amps is irrelevant, because we know this is the case and it doesn't change anything.

And again, Noelle only states that even a 1% increase is a phenomenal boost in power. She clashes with 52-53% Vanica, and then again with 65-67% Vanica, and it's never stated that she's speeding up during the fight.

• Sally was obviously distracted so they snuck up on her. Notice how she was still distracted even after Grey was multiplied. She only realized while she was losing balance after her magic was turned to flowers.

No one was sneaking up on her, they were all yelling and you had a whole horde of Grey's appearing above Sally. Even Rades comments on this as they're heading toward her, yet somehow Sally (who is supposedly 10x faster than Rades) didn't even notice? Again, consider how massive a 10x speed boost is. In VS matches, that's a whole speed blitz. Even if she was initially focused on Henry, she should've been able to easily notice this.

So now that there are no inconsistencies and problems with the originally accepted speed scaling. So I want change the ratings back to 12000c based on the fact that a magic boost is also a speed boost proportionally based on multiple narrative instances where characters affect speed directly by just manipulating the magic power like Zora, Magna and multiple other characters who can keep up with amped speeds by merely amping their own magic power.

I don't believe you have proven that the inconsistencies and problems don't actually exist. My stance remains the same, and not only that, but this post fails to address the sheer lack of support this magnitude of multiplier stacking has beyond this. As per our standards, there should be an overwhelming amount of support for a stack of multipliers that ends up totaling to several hundreds or even thousands of times above the latest speed calc. However, no such things exist. Light isn't exactly treated as small time at all (at least not until the final arc potentially, with Yuno's feat, but that's a topic for another time). There are zero calcs that are even close to such a rating (if we end off at 12000c, I expect to see even something like a 6000c calc somewhere).

There's just so little support for such a massive multiplier stack that I don't see why this should be accepted under our standards.

 

[CloverDragon03]

And with that post, I probably won't make another long post, given that I feel this could just end up going in circles. I'll defer to the staff for a verdict

 

[Damage3245]

I remain convinced by Clover.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Again, why is it irrelevant? Why do you keep saying relevant things are irrelevant.

It's irrelevant because Zetten is an amp on top of whatever state Ichika is in, it doesn't matter if Ichika was using 0.1% of her magic power or 50%, Zetten would amp it so that Asta would be speedblitzed if amps to AP are 1:1 with speed. For my premise to be wrong, Ichika would literally have to be suppressing herself right before she fires Zetten so that the output of her Zetten equals whatever suppressed state she was in which literally makes no sense.

Yes, exactly... she was able to speedblitz Asta in base with no Zetten and also able to dodge Asta's attacks in base with 0 effort, showing how far above that version of Asta she was. She used no Dark magic and didn't even use her sword mostly and just slapped and kicked him around, it's hard to understate how outmatched Asta was.

So when she uses Zetten, she could logically uber-blitz him if she wanted to. So the reason she does not, is because she is holding back for which there is countless proof.

You seem to think that this supports your point when all it proves is how much Ichika had been holding back, so the notion that Ichika's Zetten was anywhere close to full power - and therefore indicative of the general speed amp Zetten provides - is completely ridiculous. Once again, she literally says her going all out would have KILLED Asta, so please stop trying to argue Ichika was serious in the first battle.

No, that premise literally proves that increase in Magic Power and AP is not 1:1 with speed because again, for your premise to be correct, Ichika would have to be suppressing herself so that her Zettens equaled her suppressed state which makes no sense, that's like Goku suppressing his power level down to 4000 before using a Kaioken x2 against Vegeta.

I have no idea why you are saying that i said she used a x20 multiplier against bandits. The part you're responding to is merely stating Ichika was holding back against the bandits, which i've proven beyond doubt Asta and Ichika both state that, if you disagree with that you're disagreeing with the manga at this point.

Asta's statement after seeing Ichika use Zetten on those bandits is literally the basis for Zetten's multiplier.

Ichika, who was not even fighting seriously, was stated to have had her Ki been multiplied many tens of times in the scan above when she performed Zetten against bandits. The scan above was translated by @Arc7Kuroi. 何十倍 means many tens of times.

I don't know where you have x20 from, Asta indictates twice that Zetten is a x10 speed boost. Here are the panels. If the wiki says x20, cool, it doesn't change anything because it's proven Ichika can hold back Zetten from the mere fact that she didn't wipe out the entire town square when using Zetten.

Those scans refer to strength, not speed and you used the Zetten against the bandits to prove Ichika's holding back Zetten to less than x20 even though that Zetten against the bandits is outright stated by Asta to be a multiplier of tens of times.

It's very, very, very obvious Ichika uses a higher amp against Asta in the rematch. Seeing as Asta states that Ichika had not been serious up until their first battle [so against the bandits], then in their second battle Ichika claims that she is now going to finally using her full power [and no longer cares if it kills him], proving beyond any negotiability that Ichika used less power against the bandits then she used against Asta in the mock battle, and less against Asta in the mock battle than in the serious battle. Three seperate stages of Zetten usage. We have no way to measure how much Zetten she used in the first two battles, and that we know the last battle is Ichika's power ceiling and she most likely used Zetten at 100% power. So the idea of putting any multiplier on it, even if i were to go along with the assumption that Zetten is a general baseline x20 boost, is headcanon.

If Ichika didn't even try against those bandits and that Zetten used on them was a multiplier of tens of times, then her Zettens against Black Asta must be a higher multiplier according to you which actually proves my point because Ichika being more than 20x faster with Zetten makes no sense when Asta struggles to keep up with her base speed.

It is headcanon, it is not conservative, it's purely headcanon. Show me a calc or evidence that supports the number x2. We saw that Ichika was able to blitz and one-shot Asta in base form with no Zetten, no Dark magic and no sword. It's hard to overstate how outclassed Asta was in that mock battle. Also: You were the one who stated that Zetten's AP increase would not necessarily come with a 1:1 increase in speed, which is correct, so i don't know why you would assume a x2 multiplier to herself via Zetten would result in doubling her speed, aren't you contradicting yourself?

I don't know what you're talking about because my entire premise has been about proving that Zetten's AP multiplier and speed amp are not 1:1. The 2x multiplier was a lowball from me to prove a point that it couldn't be an amp of speed by that magnitude too because based on what you've said, Ichika would be using a higher multiplier on Black Asta she used against the bandits (which is accepted as 20x). Ichika one-shotting Asta doesn't mean anything because that was a Base form Asta who just got hit hard enough to be knocked out of his Black form, not the Black Asta struggling to keep up with Base Ichika.

I've sent you the relevant panel in my last reply with bold text, please read it this time. Asta is able to passively nerf magic around him, lowering the Yoryoku level of any attack that is sent his way. It is even stated that it's enough to completely nullify simple spells, just passively by existing with Anti-magic around him and i've also included the panel where it states that Zetten's core mechanic is explosively raising Yoryoku by releasing it all at once, which is where the speed amp stems from - as discussed multiple times throughout this reply section, magic power increases speed. There is debate on wheter or not it is 1:1 but it absolutely correlates resulting in the speed amp. So yes, Black Asta is passively nerfing the speed of Zetten and any magic that comes into contact with him.

That scan you used is just Ryuya saying Asta used anti magic to defend from the power of Ichika's Zetten, that doesn't prove Asta nerfed the speed of it before it even made contact.

Yes, he reacted to a nerfed Zetten that was nerfed again by his Anti-Magic.

Attacks have to make contact with anti-magic to be nerfed by anti-magic, Asta was not releasing any anti-magic into the air in that scan.

Yes, she does. Three times, here you go.

That's literally the same scan where I made a point about the fact that going all out means Ichika transforming, someone holding back an ability/form doesn't mean they held back their multiplier ability in their base form to be equal to their suppressed base state.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

None of this really matters because this level of multiplier stacking to this degree is unsupported regardless if the op may or may not be wrong about certain verse specific arguments.

 

[Joshyyy_64]

You need to show they are 1:1. You can't ask someone to disprove something you haven't proven

i agree that there isn't any proof that MP increases AP and Speed linearly.

which is why I mentioned in a previous reply that that was shown especially well whhen zora doubled the attack power and speed of the spells with his counter trap magic stated by Mimosa to double speed and power and stated by Zora and others multiple times to doubleand reflect magic. What is this, are we conveniently dodging statements that disprove the 1:1 statement? it is completely unreasonable to reduce theverse to relatavistic and FTL just because there isn't a 1:1 boost yet you yourselves still think that they get a boost in the first place. Not only has it been proven, it's been shown. it's a weak argument to say that either it's a 1:1 boost or they aren't getting boosts at all period which would be the reason to the relativistic calculations.

I'll start here since the before this is just an apology for the scale going higher than it was intended to, which doesn't really affect anything argument-wise.

First off, the only one who even remotely shows such a 1:1 relationship between AP and speed is Zora himself. Well, him and Langris. That's literally it (so idk why you said "characters", as in plural, when it's only one). Other characters just get faster to some unknown degree. This is also not even mentioning the existence of dedicated speed amps which don't require an increase in magic, such as Leg Strength Boost, Base Run Gamble, and Yami's Iai Slash (the Iai Slash is faster than Yami's regular Mana Zone: Condense btw, he specifically mentions that his Iai attacks never miss in Mana Zone: Condense)

And as for Magna, I must again reiterate that Magna is not vastly slower than Dante, which I will get to later in this post.


So did you want him to go "well actually it's the power and speed of the spell, not the magic itself" when they're desperately arguing on whether or not to go back and save Mereoleona? Like... really?

Also, "it" can mean either the magic or just the power and speed. It's a pronoun.

This doesn't prove anything. In fact, it actually supports my point, because despite Zora doubling up the power and speed, the amount of magic in his fist is just "the magic he just took." The magic he just took would be that of Lucifero's punch, not doubled up.

So in conclusion, this is very flimsy. And even if you were to say Zora doubles the magic itself, he's the only one who has shown such a capability, so I don't know why you'd apply it to everyone else anyway.

I've seen this argument repeatedly, and it completely ignores the context of the scene. Dante noticed the Ash Magic, then was suddenly hit by the Exploding Fireball. He's evidently confused at what's going on, evidenced by the "...?" speech bubble showcasing his reaction. Your extrapolation of the events simply doesn't hold up.

You've gotta understand just how massive a 500x speed gap is. With such a gap, Dante could register the fireball's existence, walk away, buy a whole ass smoothie, come back, and then swat it away in the time it took for it to reach him. As for how Magna can tag 100% Dante, it's simple: Dante was off-guard. He didn't allow himself to be hit, rather he wasn't on guard and was thus hit in the process. So as a result, Magna is somewhat comparable to 100% Dante, but slower. This also explains how he ends up keeping up with 50% Dante, and even outpacing him repeatedly. His speed is unchanged.

Saying that scaling Magna to Dante in any sort of way off of that is wrong is simply an argument from incredulity, not something with an actual basis.

Dante never turned around a speed blitz. Yami never used his Iai attacks against 80% Dante, so he simply went from keeping up with Yami to outspeeding him, which is a lot less impressive. Also, Loropechika isn't constantly amping Noelle, her Mana Zone is simply giving Noelle a fixed amp (and weakening Vanica, obviously). Mana Zone and Mana Method being speed amps is irrelevant, because we know this is the case and it doesn't change anything.

And again, Noelle only states that even a 1% increase is a phenomenal boost in power. She clashes with 52-53% Vanica, and then again with 65-67% Vanica, and it's never stated that she's speeding up during the fight.

No one was sneaking up on her, they were all yelling and you had a whole horde of Grey's appearing above Sally. Even Rades comments on this as they're heading toward her, yet somehow Sally (who is supposedly 10x faster than Rades) didn't even notice? Again, consider how massive a 10x speed boost is. In VS matches, that's a whole speed blitz. Even if she was initially focused on Henry, she should've been able to easily notice this.

I don't believe you have proven that the inconsistencies and problems don't actually exist. My stance remains the same, and not only that, but this post fails to address the sheer lack of support this magnitude of multiplier stacking has beyond this. As per our standards, there should be an overwhelming amount of support for a stack of multipliers that ends up totaling to several hundreds or even thousands of times above the latest speed calc. However, no such things exist. Light isn't exactly treated as small time at all (at least not until the final arc potentially, with Yuno's feat, but that's a topic for another time). There are zero calcs that are even close to such a rating (if we end off at 12000c, I expect to see even something like a 6000c calc somewhere).

There's just so little support for such a massive multiplier stack that I don't see why this should be accepted under our standards.

for the magna argument tagging dante for a brief instance, I'm calling this Plot Induced Stupidity because we know that before that when fighting asta and Yami, he was on guard A LOT OF THE TIME. Asta and Yami are absolutely quicker than magna.

You're also relying way to much on the lack of statements the story produces but there's no anti feats to show she's isn't speeding up in that fight at all.

3 inconsistencies:
1. 1 one them being the Zora argument is flimsy. If Zora isn't doubling the magic power of an attack but the power and speed is being doubled, then magic as a whole in the verse doesn't make sense because what you are basically telling me is that you don't need to add more mana to make a spell stronger. It just becomes stronger out of thin air. Good luck trying to make that make sense

2. the second argument I'll repeat myself and call Plot Induced Stupidity on the Magna vs Dante fight. This is because we've seen even dante himself react and dodge spells like dimension slash in lower forms, reacting to Asta's ki sensing in the fight and throwing the both of them off. It should also be noted that in that fight, he wasn't noticing magna's fireball in that fight at all because he called magna's power too weak. I'll reiterate: Dante being more focussed on where the ash came from which was hiding the firball until the very last instance AND willingly tanking slashes from Jack just for the sake of it. He litterally gives magna a free attack right after that.

3. the vanica argument not getting a 1:1 boost is unreasonable to take away the speed boosts period when we know her base got tagged.why dont you recalculate the speed multipliers, however instead of making it a 1:1 that you keep complaining about, make it a 1:0.5 or a 1:0.3 even.

again, disagree with the OP.

 

[ShigarakiShimura]

which is why I mentioned in a previous reply that that was shown especially well whhen zora doubled the attack power and speed of the spells with his counter trap magic stated by Mimosa to double speed and power and stated by Zora and others multiple times to doubleand reflect magic. What is this, are we conveniently dodging statements that disprove the 1:1 statement? it is completely unreasonable to reduce theverse to relatavistic and FTL just because there isn't a 1:1 boost yet you yourselves still think that they get a boost in the first place. Not only has it been proven, it's been shown. it's a weak argument to say that either it's a 1:1 boost or they aren't getting boosts at all period which would be the reason to the relativistic calculations.


for the magna argument tagging dante for a brief instance, I'm calling this Plot Induced Stupidity because we know that before that when fighting asta and Yami, he was on guard A LOT OF THE TIME. Asta and Yami are absolutely quicker than magna.

You're also relying way to much on the lack of statements the story produces but there's no anti feats to show she's isn't speeding up in that fight at all.

3 inconsistencies:
1. 1 one them being the Zora argument is flimsy. If Zora isn't doubling the magic power of an attack but the power and speed is being doubled, then magic as a whole in the verse doesn't make sense because what you are basically telling me is that you don't need to add more mana to make a spell stronger. It just becomes stronger out of thin air. Good luck trying to make that make sense

2. the second argument I'll repeat myself and call Plot Induced Stupidity on the Magna vs Dante fight. This is because we've seen even dante himself react and dodge spells like dimension slash in lower forms, reacting to Asta's ki sensing in the fight and throwing the both of them off. It should also be noted that in that fight, he wasn't noticing magna's fireball in that fight at all because he called magna's power too weak. I'll reiterate: Dante being more focussed on where the ash came from which was hiding the firball until the very last instance AND willingly tanking slashes from Jack just for the sake of it. He litterally gives magna a free attack right after that.

3. the vanica argument not getting a 1:1 boost is unreasonable to take away the speed boosts period when we know her base got tagged.why dont you recalculate the speed multipliers, however instead of making it a 1:1 that you keep complaining about, make it a 1:0.5 or a 1:0.3 even.

again, disagree with the OP.

Nobody said they're not getting a boost, it's just not 1:1. And since we don't know how big the boost is we can't quantify or give it any number/scale. So yes they would scale to relativistic and FTL, at most we can just add a "likely higher" but nothing else.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Other characters just get faster to some unknown degree. This is also not even mentioning the existence of dedicated speed amps which don't require an increase in magic, such as Leg Strength Boost, Base Run Gamble,

Because they are movements spells, just like Light magic, their sole purpose is to make you move faster than you normally can. Not only that, but it doesn't even increase their mp, it just condenses it into a specific part of the body.

I honestly don't know where you're trying to go with this.

and Yami's Iai Slash (the Iai Slash is faster than Yami's regular Mana Zone: Condense btw, he specifically mentions that his Iai attacks never miss in Mana Zone: Condense)

Iai Slash is just the slash, independent from his travel speed. His body still moved past Dante without him noticing meaning condensing his Mana Zone did make Yami that fast.

This doesn't prove anything. In fact, it actually supports my point, because despite Zora doubling up the power and speed, the amount of magic in his fist is just "the magic he just took." The magic he just took would be that of Lucifero's punch, not doubled up.

He said all the magic he took would go to his fist, he THEN says, "I'm gonna pay you back Double", implying he just now doubled it.

Also, during his battle against Langris. We see Langris's reflected attacks double in size, something Langris does by increasing his magic power. Klaus even says he's outgrown Zora's doubled magic. Meaning Zora did increase the magic power of the spell

And even if you were to say Zora doubles the magic itself, he's the only one who has shown such a capability, so I don't know why you'd apply it to everyone else anyway.

Langris quite literally did the same thing, did he not? Same for Lucifero too.

I've seen this argument repeatedly, and it completely ignores the context of the scene. Dante noticed the Ash Magic, then was suddenly hit by the Exploding Fireball. He's evidently confused at what's going on, evidenced by the "...?" speech bubble showcasing his reaction. Your extrapolation of the events simply doesn't hold up.

To begin with "...?" Could mean anything. It could mean "What's going on" like it could mean "who did this" or "Why are they here". And given the rest of the context, the only thing that is confusing him is that people as weak as them are before him.

It takes a whole train of thoughts to associate these 3 dot and question mark to him not processing Magna's attack, which isn't even said to be the case anywhere, rather than him just be confused as to why they are here. Heck, Jack ask them why they're here too.

As for how Magna can tag 100% Dante, it's simple: Dante was off-guard. He didn't allow himself to be hit, rather he wasn't on guard and was thus hit in the process. So as a result, Magna is somewhat comparable to 100% Dante, but slower. This also explains how he ends up keeping up with 50% Dante, and even outpacing him repeatedly. His speed is unchanged.

Magna never outpaced Dante. If you're referring to the times where he dodged his punches, that's simply a difference in skill. You can still dodge while being slower anyway

Dante never turned around a speed blitz. Yami never used his Iai attacks against 80% Dante, so he simply went from keeping up with Yami to outspeeding him, which is a lot less impressive.

You seem to forget that the gap between 60% 80% is merely a 1.3% percent. If anything, it makes it more proportional to the increase in power.

Also, Loropechika isn't constantly amping Noelle, her Mana Zone is simply giving Noelle a fixed amp (and weakening Vanica, obviously).

We can very clearly see runes all around Noelle as she moves.

And again, Noelle only states that even a 1% increase is a phenomenal boost in power. She clashes with 52-53% Vanica, and then again with 65-67% Vanica, and it's never stated that she's speeding up during the fight.

You can see it for yourself. Noelle can outspeed 50% Vanica's attacks and ram into her without her doing anything, but by the time she reaches 65% Noelle is getting overwhelmed.

And just because the characters only mentions strength doesn't mean the increase in speed is non-existent. It's just that said Characters find more impressive to increase your power than to increase your speed.
Mimosa has mentioned the speed and power being doubled by Zora, yet everyone else is only mentioning the doubled power aspect of it. Does that means the speed wasn't doubled? Hell no, they just think its power increase more important.

No one was sneaking up on her, they were all yelling and you had a whole horde of Grey's appearing above Sally. Even Rades comments on this as they're heading toward her, yet somehow Sally (who is supposedly 10x faster than Rades) didn't even notice? Again, consider how massive a 10x speed boost is. In VS matches, that's a whole speed blitz. Even if she was initially focused on Henry, she should've been able to easily notice this.

That's just part of her character. She's too horny focused to pay attention to anything else.

The exact same thing happened 100 chapters prior, Sally was so focused on Asta that she barely gave attention to her Salamander exploding right beneath her, she didn't bother to dodge or protect herself and it took Theresa rushing right at her face to get off of Asta.
Matter of fact, she completely forgot that Theresa was there and was engaging in a 1v3.

The mere fact she doesn't even look at them until Gordon aims at her with his poison, much like Theresa with her flames, while Rades reacted and screamed, actually proves she was too focused on Henry to care.



If you want to remove the 500 multiplier, you could have just said it makes them hundred of times faster without any feats to back it up, no one is disagreeing with that and no one would have except Arnold.
But really, most of those arguments are... shaky to say the least.

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Nobody said they're not getting a boost, it's just not 1:1. And since we don't know how big the boost is we can't quantify or give it any number/scale. So yes they would scale to relativistic and FTL, at most we can just add a "likely higher" but nothing else.

Yeah, i know it isn't 1:1. that's why I said that taking it away completely is an outright farce in and of itself just because you can't quantify it being 1:1 even though we know a speed bost occurs anyway. It all comes down to it being way to unreasonable nerf. so I still disagree. but please, answer the zora argument and the dante argument. thanks

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Because they are movements spells, just like Light magic, their sole purpose is to make you move faster than you normally can. Not only that, but it doesn't even increase their mp, it just condenses it into a specific part of the body.

I honestly don't know where you're trying to go with this.

Iai Slash is just the slash, independent from his travel speed. His body still moved past Dante without him noticing meaning condensing his Mana Zone did make Yami that fast.

He said all the magic he took would go to his fist, he THEN says, "I'm gonna pay you back Double", implying he just now doubled it.

Also, during his battle against Langris. We see Langris's reflected attacks double in size, something Langris does by increasing his magic power. Klaus even says he's outgrown Zora's doubled magic. Meaning Zora did increase the magic power of the spell

Langris quite literally did the same thing, did he not? Same for Lucifero too.

To begin with "...?" Could mean anything. It could mean "What's going on" like it could mean "who did this" or "Why are they here". And given the rest of the context, the only thing that is confusing him is that people as weak as them are before him.

It takes a whole train of thoughts to associate these 3 dot and question mark to him not processing Magna's attack, which isn't even said to be the case anywhere, rather than him just be confused as to why they are here. Heck, Jack ask them why they're here too.

Magna never outpaced Dante. If you're referring to the times where he dodged his punches, that's simply a difference in skill. You can still dodge while being slower anyway


You seem to forget that the gap between 60% 80% is merely a 1.3% percent. If anything, it makes it more proportional to the increase in power.

We can very clearly see runes all around Noelle as she moves.

You can see it for yourself. Noelle can outspeed 50% Vanica's attacks and ram into her without her doing anything, but by the time she reaches 65% Noelle is getting overwhelmed.

And just because the characters only mentions strength doesn't mean the increase in speed is non-existent. It's just that said Characters find more impressive to increase your power than to increase your speed.
Mimosa has mentioned the speed and power being doubled by Zora, yet everyone else is only mentioning the doubled power aspect of it. Does that means the speed wasn't doubled? Hell no, they just think its power increase more important.

That's just part of her character. She's too horny focused to pay attention to anything else.

The exact same thing happened 100 chapters prior, Sally was so focused on Asta that she barely gave attention to her Salamander exploding right beneath her, she didn't bother to dodge or protect herself and it took Theresa rushing right at her face to get off of Asta.
Matter of fact, she completely forgot that Theresa was there and was engaging in a 1v3.

The mere fact she doesn't even look at them until Gordon aims at her with his poison, much like Theresa with her flames, while Rades reacted and screamed, actually proves she was too focused on Henry to care.



If you want to remove the 500 multiplier, you could have just said it makes them hundred of times faster without any feats to back it up, no one is disagreeing with that and no one would have except Arnold.
But really, most of those arguments are... shaky to say the least.

where do you feel it's reasonable to scale speed at this point and or how do you want to scale it? I still think it's unreasonable to take away the calculation completely to make everyone reletavistic just because there isn't a 1:1. there's still some sort of ratio that happens in the first place

 

[SunDaGamer]

I don't think there's any accepted FTL calculations that aren't outdated, since the speed amp isn't 1:1 with AP then we can't quantify it so a "at least ... likely higher" could probably be implemented. The current way of implementing scaling speed with AP linearly isn't even consistent between EOMS Arc and Royal Knights Arc tiers

 

[chosen]

I agree with multiplier removel cuz via our rules it isn't allowed

 

[Xinsignia1]

Also, "it" can mean either the magic or just the power and speed. It's a pronoun.

This doesn't prove anything. In fact, it actually supports my point, because despite Zora doubling up the power and speed, the amount of magic in his fist is just "the magic he just took." The magic he just took would be that of Lucifero's punch, not doubled up.

This argument is an odd point contest, because unless i'm missing something magical power is only powered by magical power Here it's literally stated that magical power is power that can influence substance, which is before it even becomes magic, magical power IS power which is 100% established in the manga.

,

Zora's fist was full of raw magical power, (not even spells since Lucifero just discharged a burst of magical power) So how exactly does one double the power of magical power, without doubling the magical power? That sounds like paradox. Is it not confirmed that you can only enhance a spell with magical power? Magical power IS power, every instance of spell amplification or magical power amplication in the manga is a result of adding magical power.

If Zora has magical power in his fist, then adding more power can only be done by magical power no?

In royal Knight exam, a magic knight participant that witnessed Zora's battle noted e that Zora powered up the spell of the opponents, and sent it back, which means Zora's spell added more magical power/maryoku to the attack before firing back.

Magna, even states Zora "doubles it" before firing it back, so if the spell is confirmed to be powered up before its redirected, and it's confirmed to double some quantity before being redirected, in what way is the magical power not being doubled?

In the joint struggle arc, Lolopechka states that she's boosting the power of Noelle's magic through Ludic sanctuary which is combo of mana zone + mana method. Since Lolopechka is cutting the power of her blood magic in half and boosting the power of Noelle's spell, does that mean she's not boosting the magic? sand Absolutely not, because it's stated that power of Noelle's spell is being boosted.

In the elf arc, Licht & Lumiere used demon-dweller to send his (Lumiere's) magical power to the elfs to protect them from Zagred's worms, Yuno even states that Lumiere's light is filling him with power, and even states that it helping him move faster, much like how Lolopechka's water (the mana zone) was filling Noelle with magical power.

even during Spade arc Yuno needed Langris to buy him time so he could create a weapon (spirit of euros) to pierce 100% Zenon after Yuno pierced 100% Zenon (someone who he couldn't pierce until he built up the required power) Zenon even remarked on the speed, and how it pierced through him. so know both speed and power were amplified.

Another example, Nach and Yami's mana zone, Yami states he's flooded with power after being juiced up by the qlipoth not just Yami, but but also Nacht and his devils. They're both stated they're flooded with power, and we know what type of power it is, it's magical power considering tthey're both being amped by kids playground which is dark magic x shadow magic mana zone spell.

Here: Finral states he's using mana method to boost the speed of his spell when him and Langris were teaming up against devil heart Zenon. It was already established that mana method allows you to use more magical power (maryoku) than you actually have by utilizing natural mana. And to be safe in the raws we can clearly see they're talking about "power" (aka magical power) in reference to mana method So Finral boosted the power of his spell, to boost his speed. It's clearly stated that arrays which use natural mana makes spells stronger.

Whether it be "mana method" or "mana zone" both techniques take advantage of ambient mana, and use it to generate more magical power.

Even with our latest chapters, Lucius noted that Yuno sped up and cut him (aka his clone) and states that even if Yuno is burning life, he shouldn't have that kind of power. and i'd like to remind everyone that burning life 100% means converting your own life force into magical power and as stated earlier for good measure the raws 100% state that Gadja is converting his life into magical power. So Yuno is boosting his power + speed by burning some of his own life force by converting it into magical power.

At the very minimum we should understand that powering up a spell or magical power requires more magical power, because that's what they solely run on, not just any "power" and the energy for that power solely comes from mana so stating that power of the magical power increased instead of the magical power itself makes absolutely no sense, like....not even remotely, the power of the spell ALWAYS impacts it's speed.

Now, proof of it being doubled? Mimosa states the power and speed of the spell are doubled, and spells are solely powered by magical power, even though the viz translations used "force" that doesn't change anything considering in the raws the kanji for power/force are the same (they mean the same thing) considering even the early fan translations translated it as "power" It was established that Zora powers up the spell before sending it back which means before that "power" and speed is reflected at you" the magical power is increased by a factor of two.

1. Zora states he's going to double the magical power「魔力 maryoku」
2. Yuno states he needs to build up magical power 「魔力 maryoku」,

So at the minimum we know the power is being doubled before he reflects it back considering there are several instances of Zora + the characters he interacted with, that says he's either "doubling it" before sending back, "doubling the magic" before sending back or even "doubling the magical power" before sending it back, which has been not just once, but twice

So in conclusion, this is very flimsy. And even if you were to say Zora doubles the magic itself, he's the only one who has shown such a capability, so I don't know why you'd apply it to everyone else anyway.

How is it flimsy when the value is what's being doubled? Zora's is not the only person to increase the power of a spell or magical power by facts of two or more. IIRC the argument was Zora boost the power of the spell, not the magic itself, but as it's already been established that the power of the spell is magical power, that's literally what magic is powered by.

If it wasn't, then Asta would be able to use it despite lacking magical power, but we all know that's not the case.

I'm saying it's literally impossible to increase the power of a spell or even magical power without increasing the magical power itself per manga, it's contradictory and makes absolutely no sense contextually, unless I overlooked something. When some says "let's add more power to the spell" or "let's boost the power of the spell" they're literally adding more magical power, because as I stated earlier magical power is the power that is required for spells isn't this established or no?

Because if not, then what is the point of Asta not even having magic if using magical power isn't even required?

Because I just want to make sure we all understand this, because IF NOT then there are a bunch of decisions beings made or suggested by individuals that may even be misinformed about how magic works in the verse. Now, if that's the case, then then they should take a look at the terminology that's verses page.

Our wiki has clear definitions of what magic and magical power are:

We 100% know Zora was talking about magical power during his encounter with Lucifero, NOT magic because as I stated earlier the term used was maryoku (magical power) not maho (magic) It's even noted on our wiki that the viz "translations often translate "Maryoku" as "Mana", which is incorrect as they mean 2 separate energies and are differentiated in the original japanese version" as i've shown below

The instance of Zora and Lucifero was a strictly quantitative application of magical power, no magic was released from Lucifero to Zora, it was just raw magical power, not some "spell" magical power can still be used without magic. Lucifero was just throwing punches filled with power, and that power was magical power.

It's made pretty clear the amount of power the spell (which is magical power) is doubled before it's reflected, and that results in a counter trap that has twice the power + speed.

 

[CloverDragon03]

None of this really matters because this level of multiplier stacking to this degree is unsupported regardless if the op may or may not be wrong about certain verse specific arguments.

Exactly my point too. Sure, you could say an argument or two of mine are flimsy, even if I disagree, but where’s the support for this multiplier stack? Where’s the 5000-7000c calc for instance? Where are the statements? Where is light shown to be small-time?

The necessary support for such a massive stack is nowhere to be seen, and by our standards, this means it should be removed.

 

[CloverDragon03]

It’s been over 48 hours now and 5 staff members agree with this while none disagree with it. I won’t rush for this thread’s closure, but if nothing changes, I’ll begin applying the changes soon.

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Exactly my point too. Sure, you could say an argument or two of mine are flimsy, even if I disagree, but where’s the support for this multiplier stack? Where’s the 5000-7000c calc for instance? Where are the statements? Where is light shown to be small-time?

The necessary support for such a massive stack is nowhere to be seen, and by our standards, this means it should be removed.

I'm still calling plot induced stupidity for dante's example with magna. what you're attempting to do is remove all the multiplier stacks and basically telling us that nobody get's faster between EMS and spade which doesn't seem reasonable because we're essentially getting rid the speed boosts that characters and the triad get because it's not 1:1 like with AP.

 

[Xinsignia1]

where do you feel it's reasonable to scale speed at this point and or how do you want to scale it? I still think it's unreasonable to take away the calculation completely to make everyone reletavistic just because there isn't a 1:1. there's still some sort of ratio that happens in the first place

Is there any reason why the Mereleona calc can't be used? Because i'm pretty sure it was accepted ( I think) considering it was a light movement spell that she reacted to.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm still calling plot induced stupidity for dante's example with magna. what you're attempting to do is remove all the multiplier stacks and basically telling us that nobody get's faster between EMS and spade which doesn't seem reasonable because we're essentially getting rid the speed boosts that characters and the triad get because it's not 1:1 like with AP.

That’s not what I’m doing. They get faster, yes, but to an unquantifiable degree. Trying to paint what I’m doing in as bad a light as possible is not an argument.

And I’m in staunch disagreement with the Magna thing being PIS. And even if it was, it doesn’t change the point of mine that you quoted.

 

[Joshyyy_64]

That’s not what I’m doing. They get faster, yes, but to an unquantifiable degree. Trying to paint what I’m doing in as bad a light as possible is not an argument.

And I’m in staunch disagreement with the Magna thing being PIS. And even if it was, it doesn’t change the point of mine that you quoted.

Yet you (with all due respect) think that to be able to tag someone, you don't even need to be quicker than that person so now all of a sudden magna is either as quick as Dante or Dante is slow af because he got hit once by a fireball. This shouldn't count as an example to use as an example to for inconsistencies because this only happened once the entire time. I believe we can call this an outlier? or PIS.

As for the point I quoted, is there any way we can estimate the quantifiable terms to which they become faster? We haven't even mentioned that each magic knight they fight uses mana skin to boost their stats and betwen each enemy they defeat and assuming the enemy they face is stronger than the last, they scale to mana skini boosts. They should scale above those boosts for mana skin at the VERY LEAST which we haven't even considered. You get what I mean? I'll re-iterate if you'd like me to.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yet you (with all due respect) think that to be able to tag someone, you don't even need to be quicker than that person so now all of a sudden magna is either as quick as Dante or Dante is slow af because he got hit once by a fireball. This shouldn't count as an example to use as an example to for inconsistencies because this only happened once the entire time. I believe we can call this an outlier? or PIS.

Yes, you can tag someone and be slower, in the same way that someone that dodges light can still be Relativistic rather than SoL or FTL. It depends on a multitude of factors

As for the point I quoted, is there any way we can estimate the quantifiable terms to which they become faster? We haven't even mentioned that each magic knight they fight uses mana skin to boost their stats and betwen each enemy they defeat and assuming the enemy they face is stronger than the last, they scale to mana skini boosts. They should scale above those boosts for mana skin at the VERY LEAST which we haven't even considered. You get what I mean? I'll re-iterate if you'd like me to.

Unfortunately, there's no real quantifiable measure for these things. The best we got is calcs, but I don't think the Spade Arc has any good speed calcs

 

[Arkenis]

We haven't even mentioned that each magic knight they fight uses mana skin to boost their stats and betwen each enemy they defeat and assuming the enemy they face is stronger than the last, they scale to mana skini boosts. They should scale above those boosts for mana skin at the VERY LEAST which we haven't even considered. You get what I mean? I'll re-iterate if you'd like me to.

This is actually a good point.

• Base Asta (Eye of the Midnight Sun Arc) = 0.22c (Relativistic) -> Via Gauche's calc
• Patry/Fana/Raia/Base Asta (Witches Forest Arc) = 0.22c (Relativistic) -> Can blitz EMS Arc Base Asta
• Base Asta (Royal Knights Exam Arc) = 0.44c (Relativistic) -> Intercepted a doubled speed Elemental Quintet, which is > Raia's speed
• Black Asta (Royal Knights Exam Arc) = 0.88c (Relativistic+) -> Blitzed Rage Power Langris, who is 2x faster than his base form due to intercepting his own base form's attacks reflected at double the speed; his base form is comparable to Asta's
• Yami/Vetto/Nozel/Julius = 0.89c (Relativistic+) -> Via Yami's/Nozel's calcs
• Light Magic = 1c (Speed of Light) -> Stated multiple times to move at light speed
• Demon Light Magic = 1.1c (FTL) -> Superior to Light Magic in all aspects, including speed
• Lucifero = 1.78c (FTL) -> Matched the speed of a punch that was twice his casual speed, which is superior to that of Devil Union Asta, who is far superior to Elf Arc characters

Those in here who can do manaskin would just get a higher rating on profile for it unless manaskin has a stated speed amp?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Mana Skin doesn't amp speed to my knowledge, it's just a defensive move

 

[Arnoldstone18]

If you want to remove the 500 multiplier, you could have just said it makes them hundred of times faster without any feats to back it up, no one is disagreeing with that and no one would have except Arnold.
But really, most of those arguments are... shaky to say the least.

No, I am fine with removing it. Infact, The 500x multiplier was never intended to be added because it breaks the rule I set when I started this whole thing.

“Simply having more magic power than someone doesn’t necessarily mean you are faster than them due to a variety of factors”

Thank you for the response, you have said everything I wanted to say, I have been so busy irl.

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Yes, you can tag someone and be slower, in the same way that someone that dodges light can still be Relativistic rather than SoL or FTL. It depends on a multitude of factors

Unfortunately, there's no real quantifiable measure for these things. The best we got is calcs, but I don't think the Spade Arc has any good speed calcs

You're not going to believe this, but there is absolutely a quantifiable measure for those things

and we see this with Zora's trap magic spell doubling the speed and power of the spells it takes. I dont believe that can still think thatthat mechanism isn't doubling the magic power used for that spell in thefirst place for Mimosa to then state that the speed and power of it doubled. you simply can't do these types of things with magic out of nowhere, it's common knowledge that those spells havve double the magic output which doubles the speed and power. and thank's to @Xinsignia1 for pointing out specifically how magic power is used to inrease output and speed of spells. TLDR: Zora's trap magic proves it's 1:1

Mana Skin doesn't amp speed to my knowledge, it's just a defensive move

There's one panel with Henry when Asta was fighting Elf Gauche statting that mages constantly surround themselves in mana to make themselves stronger. And then in tthe volcano arc, we see mages who are barely able to move suddenly get a new rush of stamina, speed, str, etc.
I think there are other statements explaining mana skin to be a boost of a few or many times in power. it's not just defensive, it's a basic reinforcement spell.

 

[Joshyyy_64]

No, I am fine with removing it. Infact, The 500x multiplier was never intended to be added because it breaks the rule I set when I started this whole thing.

“Simply having more magic power than someone doesn’t necessarily mean you are faster than them due to a variety of factors”

Thank you for the response, you have said everything I wanted to say, I have been so busy irl.

I beg you back me up