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Black Clover: Immense Speed Downgrade

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CloverDragon03 said:
Even if Julius isn't the fastest, what does that prove scaling-wise? He's still faster than a number of the Rel+ characters and all that exist beyond that are unquantifiable speed amps
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This proves he has no reason to be faster than characters such as Mereoleona or Nozel for instance
 
Also Nozel should be FTL by default

That calc is .89c, a mere 1.1× gap from the next tier (btw the calc should be higher if one the the values was fixed accordingly). And we know Demon Light is far faster than Light Magic.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
I did a recalc of this at FTL for Nozel, then KT recalced it again at Rel+
Click to expand...
the 0.89c calc was for Nozel intercepting Ray of Divine Punishment, the FTL+ calc is for intercepting the Demon Light Swords which was why I asking for a consensus on whether the Demon Light Swords should be SoL or not (since the calc's page argues that Patry was charging at Nozel using the FTL movement spell and the Demon Light Swords were keeping up with it) earlier
 
SunDaGamer said:
the 0.89c calc was for Nozel intercepting Ray of Divine Punishment, the FTL+ calc is for intercepting the Demon Light Swords which was why I asking for a consensus on whether the Demon Light Swords should be SoL or not (since the calc's page argues that Patry was charging at Nozel using the FTL movement spell and the Demon Light Swords were keeping up with it) earlier
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He wasn't wrong, I recalced it offsite and got it at relativistic. I forgot to blog it
 
I disagree. The way I understand Black Clover's magic system, particularly with reinforcement magic, is that the more magic power you have, the more (potent let's say) you can increase your stats. Stats like strength, speed and the AP/DC of your spells - we've seen this time and time before on top of it being stated that the more magic power you have the stronger you should be. I do not understand the debunk because with reinforcement magic, you can increase your stats to a greater quantity than your opponent simply because you have more Magic power than them. I'd also like to mention how mages constantantly use mana skin and reinforcement magic constantly. I remember it being stated somewhere.

1. I disagree with the triads deubunk of speed multipliers.
2. meaning I would have to disagree with having the rest of the cast as slow as calced.

thanks (y)
 
Xinsignia1 said:
I disagree, because I'm not too sure about your statement. If you recall during the Lucifero fight, when Zora briefly intervened, Lucifero went to punch Asta with a fist of condensed magical power, but Zora jumped in the way and took the punch with his trap magic, he stated all of All of the magic he just got hit with goes to his fist, and that he's going to pay Lucifero back double and to be clear in the raws specifically used the term 「魔力 maryoku」 which means magical power so when Zora said "magic" in the viz translations, that was actually a mistranslation. Magic power is always associated with the scaler quanity of magic, magical power is how you measure magic not 「魔法 Mahō」 which means "magic" or "spell" If you take a look at the raws with Mimosa, she specifically says「魔法 Mahō」 which is "magic" or "spell" so Zora the creator of the spell affirms the magical power is being doubled, he doubled the magical power he took from Lucifero's hit, and used that doubled power to punch him back in an attempt to protect an injured Asta. His traps doubles the speed + force, while Mimosa was referring to the spells, which are powered by magical power hence why they grow proportionally spells are refined magical power. So doubling it's quantity should also double not just force, but also speed, so it should still scale proportionally.
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Has this argument been refuted? I wanna make sure everything's addressed before agreeing with the op
 
Joshyyy_64 said:
I disagree. The way I understand Black Clover's magic system, particularly with reinforcement magic, is that the more magic power you have, the more (potent let's say) you can increase your stats. Stats like strength, speed and the AP/DC of your spells - we've seen this time and time before on top of it being stated that the more magic power you have the stronger you should be. I do not understand the debunk because with reinforcement magic, you can increase your stats to a greater quantity than your opponent simply because you have more Magic power than them. I'd also like to mention how mages constantantly use mana skin and reinforcement magic constantly. I remember it being stated somewhere.
Click to expand...
...nobody said otherwise

it's just not enough proof that it's 1:1

you can increase magic by 30 and increase speed by 6 and strength by 5
 
I think a better stance towards the Zora trap conundrum is simply that the verse doesn't have any feats placing it anywhere near 188400c and the site standards for multiplier stacking of this magnitude were already addressed plus there's Post-Timeskip Yami stating he's not on Julius' level of reactions which doesn't make sense narratively if his reactions are 9420x FTL so put me down for agreeing
 
SunDaGamer said:
Has this argument been refuted? I wanna make sure everything's addressed before agreeing with the op
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Speaking of, there's something quite interesting to consider. When Magna went to Zora for help to become stronger after failing to learn the Heart Kingdom's ways of mana method, he mentioned how his magical power was too low to use mana method and states Zora’s trap magic “doubles stuff and kicks it back”. He states Zora’s magical power was low, but he still found a way to fight which led to soul chain death match, and again Magna also states Zora's way of doubling it, and kicking it back is too complex for him so he needs another way to beat an opponent with huge magical power, considering more complex spells require complex arrays.

Both Zora and Magna found ways to use the magical power of their opponents against them, and guess what? Magna pretty attributed the success of his spell stated that it was all because if how much he studied mana, not magic, but mana itself Magic is just one application of mana, but not the only application as we saw during the LoS arc, hell even here's its stated that Gadja is flying without using Magic/spells 「魔法 Mahō」 but it's still magical power manipulation. Zora doubles magical power, and Magna splits it in 2. Narratively this makes is spot on about how humans in BC have came up with various ways to combat opponents that have more magical power than them, which was a point brought up during the elf arc.

Not to mention, after Zora used his trap magic during the Royal knights exam, a magic knight stated that Zora powered up his opponent spells and sent it back and i'm sure we all know that powering up spells means adding more magical power, considering spells are 100% powered by magical power.

dub-2.jpg
 
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I don't agree with this multiplier nonsense either because of the results it gives, except that the stronger your magic is, the more powerful and faster it becomes. Zora is just there to confirm that doubling magic would double the speed and power as well. Just drop the multiplier bullshit 🤧 and it's crazy how the majority of people here, who have really no idea about BC , believe in anything without understanding the full context or verifying the accuracy of the statement and the scan that was used lmao
 
Worthless said:
I don't agree with this multiplier nonsense either because of the results it gives, except that the stronger your magic is, the more powerful and faster it becomes. Zora is just there to confirm that doubling magic would double the speed and power as well. Just drop the multiplier bullshit 🤧 and it's crazy how the majority of people here, who have really no idea about BC , believe in anything without understanding the full context or verifying the accuracy of the statement and the scan that was used lmao
Click to expand...
You'd need a ridiculous fountain of evidence and feats to prove a 12000x multiplier according to site standards. The highest calcs (that are gonna be scrapped) rn are 15.7c which is nowhere close to 188400c. We're not even consistent with it too since EoMS Arc Yuno is 0.22c while Royal Knights Arc Base Yuno is 15.7c but the AP gap between those keys are 1381.7x despite a 71.4x difference in speed.

However, a good statement alone is not enough to get a high multiplier accepted. The amount of extra evidence one has to provide to get larger multipliers accepted is proportional to the size of the multiplier. For lower multipliers, like things much less than times 100, evidence can take the form of a clear increase in combat strength against priorly equal or superior opponents. For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.

If multiple multipliers are to be stacked, that are used upon each other, the evidence for the end result is equal to the total multiplier applied to the best feat. That means that if, for example, a character has a times 10 multiplier and later on gets another times 50 multiplier, than the evidence necessary to use both multipliers to get a statistic, is like that of a times 500 multiplier, as the best feat would be increased by a factor of 500 in that case.
Click to expand...
 
KingTempest said:
...you done?
Click to expand...
Why? Do you also want me to mention the fact that Clover literally just says, "The main evidence used to support it is flimsy, and therefore, it's bust," and then people applaud it as if it's some godly argument? And the fact that the inconsistencies in the multiplier don't really debunk the idea that doubling magic would also double the speed and power?
 
SunDaGamer said:
You'd need a ridiculous fountain of evidence and feats to prove a 12000x multiplier according to site standards. The highest calcs (that are gonna be scrapped) rn are 15.7c which is nowhere close to 188400c. We're not even consistent with it too since EoMS Arc Yuno is 0.22c while Royal Knights Arc Base Yuno is 15.7c but the AP gap between those keys are 1381.7x despite a 71.4x difference in speed.
Click to expand...
Why r you explaining that to me when I never even agreed to it? I have so many problems with their current tiering, and their speed is one of those. But okay, thanks for sharing bro 👍🏻
 
Worthless said:
Why? Do you also want me to mention the fact that Clover literally just says, "The main evidence used to support it is flimsy, and therefore, it's bust," and then people applaud it as if it's some godly argument? And the fact that the inconsistencies in the multiplier don't really debunk the idea that doubling magic would also double the speed and power?
Click to expand...
You have to understand that even one inconsistency can be very damning to a multiplier stack as big as this
 
iirc Zetten isn't accepted as a speed multiplier even though it amps AP and durability too (and a speed multiplier would introduce inconsistencies like Black Asta reacting to Ichika's Zettens when he was struggling to keep up with her base speed)
 
KingTempest said:
...nobody said otherwise

it's just not enough proof that it's 1:1

you can increase magic by 30 and increase speed by 6 and strength by 5
Click to expand...
right, but i never said you have to pour all of your MP into speed. we at least know it has to be in terms of strengh, speed and power. who's to say that an increase in MP doesn't increase your speed period? you still get a boost in all aspects pertaining to battle anyway. Why would this simply just not be the case? or be the case that the mpre MP you get, the increase in battle stats you get?
 
SunDaGamer said:
iirc Zetten isn't accepted as a speed multiplier even though it amps AP and durability too (and a speed multiplier would introduce inconsistencies like Black Asta reacting to Ichika's Zettens when he was struggling to keep up with her base speed)
Click to expand...
account for the stat difference between PDU and black asta before we talk about zetten. if he was in PDU, he would've done better than black asta. when he was in PDU and we even see this when asta defeats lily when ichika simply couldnt?
 
Joshyyy_64 said:
right, but i never said you have to pour all of your MP into speed. we at least know it has to be in terms of strengh, speed and power. who's to say that an increase in MP doesn't increase your speed period? you still get a boost in all aspects pertaining to battle anyway. Why would this simply just not be the case? or be the case that the mpre MP you get, the increase in battle stats you get?
Click to expand...
Nobody said it doesn't increase speed.

You can increase your power by 6 and increase your speed by 5

Nobody said increase in MP doesn't increase your speed. We said that the amount of MP added isn't linear with the amount of speed added.

You having 3x as much magic power means you're faster, doesn't mean you're 3x as fast
 
KingTempest said:
Nobody said it doesn't increase speed.

You can increase your power by 6 and increase your speed by 5

Nobody said increase in MP doesn't increase your speed. We said that the amount of MP added isn't linear with the amount of speed added.

You having 3x as much magic power means you're faster, doesn't mean you're 3x as fast
Click to expand...
right so lets talk about those last 2 points that you made but I'll start of with this:

@CloverDragon03 mentioned mimosa not talking about an increase in magic but an increase in speed and power thanks to Zora's trap spell but then goes on to mention that vanica is stated to get an increae in power linear to her each 1%. by that logic, shouldn't her percentages not count as a boost? they're stated to be, as well as zora stating to take power and double + reflect it therefore an increase. is there something I'm missing there?

Expanding on from the vanica fight, we literally do see boosts in power and speed. the start of the battle we see noelle tag vanica in base right before she accesses 50% and becomes relative to noelle's speed from 50-69% and notice how it says just her power has increased. but she can keep up with noelle now? so i'm going to stick with saying an increase in power will also increase youir speed too. (y)
Oh and mind you that vanica's blood and curse magic is being weakened too so I would say that 50% of vanica is the low end of relativity before 69% being high end relativity for noelle.
70% vanica releases an aoe right after nero tags her, but wait - shouldn't nero be slower than noelle? she's narritevly not as strong and as quick as her higher forms. well, megicula half manifesting then goes on to blitz the team because they cant avoid the aoe. that sounds looks like an increase in speed to me. Need more evidence? well - chapter 254 page 16, noelle reacted to and skillfully dodged megicula's blood spears and we also know that in that very scene, undine chooses her as the next host. using spirits and being chosen increases MP. TLDR: Vanica gets speed boosts.

Lets move on to magna, what I dont like about the dante argument he brought up is that we not only see dante willingly tank slashes from jack, but amidst the smoke in the panel, the exclamation mark proves he knew an attack was coming from magna amidst all the smoke and dust that he shouldn't have been able to see through. still willingly tanked it anyway because of his superiority complex throughout that entire campaign. Dante literally says to magna to do his worst before he leaves. TLDR: There's no reason that Dante got tagged besides his superiority complex on top of him knowing that attack was coming thanks to what I can infer from the exclamation mark.

Again, if there's anything I'm missing or what Ive gotten wrong please tell me. thanks.

Oh and also, put me down as HEAVILY disagree (y) much appriciated
 
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SunDaGamer said:
iirc Zetten isn't accepted as a speed multiplier even though it amps AP and durability too (and a speed multiplier would introduce inconsistencies like Black Asta reacting to Ichika's Zettens when he was struggling to keep up with her base speed)
Click to expand...

Ok hold up i agree with OP, that being said Zetten is definitely a speed boost.

Black Asta reacting to Ichika's Zettens when he was struggling to keep up with her base speed)
Click to expand...

Ichika was using Zetten, you can tell from the effect on her eyes. It's what happens when she uses Zetten.

Also, Zetten massively amps "Yoryoku" aka a persons magic power and as we went over magic power does correlate to speed even though it's not necessarily 1:1. And this results in both an extremely strong and fast attack as Ichika points out. It's unfortunately not really scalable until we have a number of how big the Zetten multiplier is, to make it worse the multiplier changes depending on who uses it. Asta vaguely puts Zetten as a x10 multiplier here [which can be distributed in a single x10 speed punch or 5 x2 speed kicks etc.] so that is the closest thing to a number we have for it.



Tangent on why Asta lost to Ichika [completely irrelevant to OP's topic, just for you @SunDaGamer ]

There is no inconsistency, because Asta had been suffering under a massive and extremely recent trauma that inhibited his true strength. Note that Asta had been able to fight Lucius to some extent until he took a hostage, before even learning Zetten and Lucius's weakest Paladins who are inferior to him stomped three Ryuzen with almost zero effort.

Asta came to Hino traumatized and broken, nowhere near full power, and Ichika managed to exploit gaps in his defence. Keep in mind that spar with Ichika was on the SAME DAY he'd lost to Lucius and watched him take control of Sister Lily's soul, he sparred with her minutes after he woke up, he was not in a state of mind for fighting. Then, when Asta was training Zetten he was getting stomped by three Ryuzen but after picking up Zetten from that experience, Asta then managed to put up a fight against a full power Ichika trying to kill him on the same night utilizing Zetten perfectly. Given that it's clear Ichika was not even holding back here, there are two possible explanations: either that Asta is Gohan or that he was much more focused during the second fight against Ichika than when the memories of his defeat were still fresh.

Asta then went through a second training bout with Yosuga, which expands on how much Asta's strength is nerfed due to his trauma.

To prove this, Asta then came back and one-shot two Paladins that as mentioned very easily defeated the exact same three Ryuzen Asta lost to on the same day.

That is because he cut down his weakness and managed to finally overcome his defeat. That combined with mastering Zetten in record time transformed him into a completely different person than he'd been at the start of that day.



Tl;dr Asta's state of mind caused what you described as inconsistency and Zetten definitely increases speed, although its unknown by what amount
 
YeahhBoyee said:
Tangent on why Asta lost to Ichika [completely irrelevant to OP's topic, just for you @SunDaGamer ]

There is no inconsistency, because Asta had been suffering under a massive and extremely recent trauma that inhibited his true strength. Note that Asta had been able to fight Lucius to some extent until he took a hostage, before even learning Zetten and Lucius's weakest Paladins who are inferior to him stomped three Ryuzen with almost zero effort.

Asta came to Hino traumatized and broken, nowhere near full power, and Ichika managed to exploit gaps in his defence. Keep in mind that spar with Ichika was on the SAME DAY he'd lost to Lucius and watched him take control of Sister Lily's soul, he sparred with her minutes after he woke up, he was not in a state of mind for fighting. Then, when Asta was training Zetten he was getting stomped by three Ryuzen but after picking up Zetten from that experience, Asta then managed to put up a fight against a full power Ichika trying to kill him on the same night utilizing Zetten perfectly. Given that it's clear Ichika was not even holding back here, there are two possible explanations: either that Asta is Gohan or that he was much more focused during the second fight against Ichika than when the memories of his defeat were still fresh.

Asta then went through a second training bout with Yosuga, which expands on how much Asta's strength is nerfed due to his trauma.

To prove this, Asta then came back and one-shot two Paladins that as mentioned very easily defeated the exact same three Ryuzen Asta lost to on the same day.

That is because he cut down his weakness and managed to finally overcome his defeat. That combined with mastering Zetten in record time transformed him into a completely different person than he'd been at the start of that day.

Tl;dr Asta's state of mind caused what you described as inconsistency and Zetten definitely increases speed, although its unknown by what amount
Click to expand...
The inconsistency I'm pointing out is literally within the fight with Ichika where Asta was using his regular Black form, not his Partial Devil Union, if Asta in that state of mind was struggling to keep up with Base Ichika's speed then Zetten's speed amp should be nowhere near 1:1 if it amps AP by 20x, as the op is proposing so about Magic Power's case, because Asta can still react to the Zetten attacks
 
Worthless said:
I don't agree with this multiplier nonsense either because of the results it gives, except that the stronger your magic is, the more powerful and faster it becomes. Zora is just there to confirm that doubling magic would double the speed and power as well. Just drop the multiplier bullshit 🤧 and it's crazy how the majority of people here, who have really no idea about BC , believe in anything without understanding the full context or verifying the accuracy of the statement and the scan that was used lmao
Click to expand...
Nothing the opposition have given actually proves, without any form of doubt, that any increase in magic/mana translate to a 1:1 increase in power and speed. This isn’t stated or shown anywhere.
 
Joshyyy_64 said:
right so lets talk about those last 2 points that you made but I'll start of with this:

@CloverDragon03 mentioned mimosa not talking about an increase in magic but an increase in speed and power thanks to Zora's trap spell but then goes on to mention that vanica is stated to get an increae in power linear to her each 1%. by that logic, shouldn't her percentages not count as a boost? they're stated to be, as well as zora stating to take power and double + reflect it therefore an increase. is there something I'm missing there?

Expanding on from the vanica fight, we literally do see boosts in power and speed. the start of the battle we see noelle tag vanica in base right before she accesses 50% and becomes relative to noelle's speed from 50-69% and notice how it says just her power has increased. but she can keep up with noelle now? so i'm going to stick with saying an increase in power will also increase youir speed too. (y)
Oh and mind you that vanica's blood and curse magic is being weakened too so I would say that 50% of vanica is the low end of relativity before 69% being high end relativity for noelle.
70% vanica releases an aoe right after nero tags her, but wait - shouldn't nero be slower than noelle? she's narritevly not as strong and as quick as her higher forms. well, megicula half manifesting then goes on to blitz the team because they cant avoid the aoe. that sounds looks like an increase in speed to me. Need more evidence? well - chapter 254 page 16, noelle reacted to and skillfully dodged megicula's blood spears and we also know that in that very scene, undine chooses her as the next host. using spirits and being chosen increases MP. TLDR: Vanica gets speed boosts.

Lets move on to magna, what I dont like about the dante argument he brought up is that we not only see dante willingly tank slashes from jack, but amidst the smoke in the panel, the exclamation mark proves he knew an attack was coming from magna amidst all the smoke and dust that he shouldn't have been able to see through. still willingly tanked it anyway because of his superiority complex throughout that entire campaign. Dante literally says to magna to do his worst before he leaves. TLDR: There's no reason that Dante got tagged besides his superiority complex on top of him knowing that attack was coming thanks to what I can infer from the exclamation mark.

Again, if there's anything I'm missing or what Ive gotten wrong please tell me. thanks.

Oh and also, put me down as HEAVILY disagree (y) much appriciated
Click to expand...
You're just repeating that they're a boost.
Nobody said they aren't a boost.
We said they aren't shown to be linear boost.
 
SunDaGamer said:
The inconsistency I'm pointing out is literally within the fight with Ichika where Asta was using his regular Black form, not his Partial Devil Union, if Asta in that state of mind was struggling to keep up with Base Ichika's speed then Zetten's speed amp should be nowhere near 1:1 if it amps AP by 20x, as the op is proposing so about Magic Power's case, because Asta can still react to the Zetten attacks
Click to expand...
The image you linked literally has Ichika using Zetten, but i understand what you're saying, that Asta should not be able to react to Zetten even partially if he can't keep up with base Ichika. Let me answer that for you.

Ichika was holding back during that fight and not using Zetten at max power. Two things make this extremely clear.

1). Later we see how Ichika uses Zetten when she fights for real and it's nothing like this mock battle. She also confirms she'd been holding back before.

2.) She perception blitzed him when she wanted to end the fight meaning the only reason Asta could block her Zetten is because she let him.

13e8c77eeb459436b9586f1ffac481c0.png


Also as mentioned in my previous post, Ichika notes how Zetten increases your speed both directly and through increasing Yoryoku which is magic power and unless you want to disagree with this entire reply section on Magic power increasing speed to some extent there's really no room for discussion on if Zetten increases your speed.
 
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