BLACK CLOVER CRT: THE UNDERWORLD (1 of 3 Additions)

[Arnoldstone18]

Welcome to the home of the devils and demons of Black Clover, How powerful are they? and how strong do you have to be to beat them?
The following should be added to the respective profiles. Please be respectful.


POWERS AND ABILITIES ADDITIONS .


Souls and Grimoires

Next,

Based on case with Zagred. A devil with a grimoire is stronger than the same devil without a grimoire. And a devil without a grimoire is stronger than the same devil without a body and a grimoire. This was the case throughout Zagred’s lifetime.

Anyone with a grimoire is able to cast complex powerful spells. Without a grimoire, the devil casts basic spells. Devils with a disembodied consciousness or soul can also cast basic spells however are weaker than themselves with a body. I know we sparingly use this rating but, Lets include the following rating to every High to Supreme devil profiles.

Should we add this logic to the devil physiology page?

Lower as a disembodied consciousness, Higher with a grimoire

Without Grimoire

Lower as a disembodied consciousness

Agreed: CloverDragon (just Zagred),
Disagree: N/A



Devil Physiology: The Devil's Heart .

Also, the following should be added to their devil physiology page

Inorganic physiology as a disembodied consciousness (Type 1)

Telepathy (Devils are capable of communicating telepathically)

Self Sustenance: (Type 1; Devils can survive as a merely a heart)



DEVIL AND DEVIL HOST ADDITIONS AND/OR CORRECTIONS

The characters below either need the following additions, corrections, or both to their respective pages. So don’t dismiss it if it’s already on their page. It doesn’t hurt to add more justifications

Zenon:

Resistance to Deconstruction and Corrosion (Capable of fighting by Yuno's passive deconstruction as well as resisting the effects of Yuno's corrosion due to the bone's overwhelming hardness and regenerative speed)


Dante:
More Power Nullification (Presence of demon king can collapse portals ), Weapon Creation (Capable of morphing rocks into a sword), Size Manipulation (capable of growing a few meters)

Will be added to the power nullification already on his profile. Dante is using Lucifero's spells as the devil host.


ZAGRED:

Limited Age Manipulation (via Word Soul Magic; "Wither"),




Vanica:

Danmaku (via Blood Magic),



Nacht:

Flight (Levitation and True-Flight with Mana Zone), Clairvoyance in Felis Mode (With Heaven's Door: Second Sight, Nacht is capable of sensing mana and peering through shadows to watch events. Even across the continent to watch the black bulls from Spade Kingdom).

He can use Manazone in base




Naamah & Lilith:

Natural weaponry (via claws)



Megicula:

Pain Manipulation (any curse megicula inflicts causes intense pain)

As the Father of all curses, they gain the ability to cast any curse shown in Black Clover.

Status Effect Inducement (Curse power can cause the skin to keep bleeding out despite merely suffering a scratch), Time Manipulation (Charlotte's parents were trapped in a cage of time with a curse) Resistance Negation and Resistance to Absorption and Sealing (Can negate the effects of Charlotte's roses, which have anti curse properties), Sense Manipulation (Curse magic is capable of hindering the five senses), Absorption (Henry's curse absorbs magic power from anyone in range), Disease Manipulation (Curse magic can cause sicknesses), Limited transmutation (Charlotte's roses turned from red to blue as an effect of her curse), Fire Manipulation, Acid Manipulation and Plant Manipulation (Gordon's family is affiliated with Curse Magic and his family made a contract with Megicula), Oil Manipulation (Gordon's Father uses oil based curse magic), Information Analysis (Nathan is capable of reading Asta's temperature and serach for physical abnormalities in his body), Clairvoyance (Nathan is capable of using Cursed Candle Ritual Disk to know the locations of every cursed individual in Clover Kingdom. The accuracy is reduced when range is increased to cover other countries), Resistance to Healing (Curses prevent wounds from healing).




Lucifero:

Power Nullification (Presence of demon king nullify spells), Power Bestowal (via Devil contract, Devil hosts can use all the abilities of a devil and draw devil power from the devil),

Then all of Dante's Gravity Magic spells.

Vanessa:

Law Manipulation (Capable of Manipulating natural laws to change fate)



Morris (needs a profile)

Limited Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2; Capable of interfering with concepts)





Pages that I need to created. So I can get used to creating pages.

• Belzeebub
• Astaroth?
• Nero
• Lolopechka
• Damnatio
• Others...

Agreed: CloverDragon, DarkDragonMedeus, KingTempest, DemonGodMitch




There are a lot of pages that need to be done in this verse. So I won't close this thread till all these pages are done.

 

[45Saef]

Following

 

[Deceived3596]

Following.

Will definitely have to read through the rest that's being suggested above but there's something i found interesting.

According to Lolopechka, Arcane Magic is effective against devils and one of the ways to attain Arcane Stage power is by using Forbidden Magic. Licht has used Forbidden magic on the highest level before and Zagred confirms he still has that power

The Zagred scan doesn't actually confirmed Licht has Forbidden "Magic" but rather a Forbidden "Spell"

Just because they both are stated to be "Forbidden" doesn't inherently mean Licht's spell came from Forbidden Magic.

You could say it implies it comes from Forbidden Magic but it definitely doesn't confirm it.

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Sorry not reading all of this jk

Following

 

[Nightshade]

I disagree FRA Following

 

[Testarossa002]

Following

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

With that said, Arcane Stage Magic is capable of affecting the laws of nature. It is also capable of affecting abstract concepts. Therefore those who are Arcane Stage should have Law Manipulation and Limited Conceptual Manipulation (type 2 & 3). Below is a list of arcane stage characters: (Click on the link on their names)

Yeah, my first impressions are this is absolutely not going to happen

Vanessa's Law Manipulation as well as the specific Devil's Conceptual Manipulation are specific to them

We're not going to grant every single Arcane Stage Mage Law and Conceptual Manipulation just because they're Arcane Stage...

 

[Deceived3596]

Yeah, my first impressions are this is absolutely not going to happen

Vanessa's Law Manipulation as well as the specific Devil's Conceptual Manipulation are specific to them

We're not going to grant every single Arcane Stage Mage Law and Conceptual Manipulation just because they're Arcane Stage...

100% Agree.

Those abilities are very clearly only specific for those characters and those characters alone.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Zagred who scales to 1.3 Teratons will scale to 4.3 Teratons on his devil’s heart (The heart is 3.3x more durable than the body)

The following are the result if we increase the durability of the heart of other high to highest ranking devils, who are greater than Zagred, by the same percentile:

Second thing to note, this is not at all how we hand out multipliers, I 100% disagree with this

For example, let's said Base Asta scales to a Baseline 7-A Calc, and then Black Asta scales to a Baseline High 7-A Calc

The gap between the form's AP Values is 10x

If after some training, Base Asta becomes Baseline High 7-A, we don't say "Well the previous gap between forms based on calcs was 10x, therefore it should be the exact same for this key"

That is a completely unreliable and unsupported way to get a multiplier, multipliers should never be dictated from solely AP Values from Calcs

 

[CloverDragon03]

Oh god you went and did it...

Well, I've already discussed with you before how I find this whole devil heart durability argument thing to be absolutely atrocious. So, I'll tackle that later since it's its own beast. I'll talk about the other stuff first. .

Also, the following should be added to their devil physiology page

Inorganic physiology as a disembodied consciousness (Type 1)

Self sustenance (Type 1,2,3) Devils passively absorb mana from the atmosphere so they never run out of mana and, without regenerating, can exist indefinitely regardless of the damage to the body as long as their heart is intact and as a disembodied consciousness

Telepathy (Devils are capable of communicating telepathically)

Immense Pain Tolerance (Devils feel no pain in combat)

Iffy on Self-Sustenance, and I seriously need to emphasize that Pain Tolerance is not an ability that actually exists. Anyone that has that as an ability needs that removed. Inorganic Physiology and Telepathy should be fine though

DEVIL AND DEVIL HOST ADDITIONS AND/OR CORRECTIONS

The characters below either need the following additions, corrections, or both to their respective pages. So don’t dismiss it if it’s already on their page. It doesn’t hurt to add more justifications

Zenon:

Resistance to Deconstruction and Corrosion (Capable of fighting by Yuno's passive deconstruction as well as resisting the effects of Yuno's corrosion due to the bone's hardness and regenerative speed), Power nullification (Absolute Space: Spatial Domination negates spells and prevents the caster from casting any more spells within range)

Doesn't Zenon already have Power Null? As for the Resistance to Deconstruction and Corrosion, I frankly think the way we treat Yuno's passive deconstruction is super wanked but given how all of Zagred, Zenon, and Lucifero resisted the corrosion of Spirit of Zephyr, it could honestly be something to add to the Devil Physiology page.

Dante:
More Power Nullification (Presence of demon king can collapse portals ), Immense Pain Tolerance (Does not feel pain despite his body constantly getting slashed and blown away in battle), Weapon Creation (Capable of morphing rocks into a sword), Large Size (Type 0), Size Manipulation (capable of growing several meters)

Will be added to the power nullification already on his profile. Dante is using Lucifero's spells as the devil host.

Should be fine except for Pain Tolerance for the same reason I mentioned before

Vanica:

Pain Tolerance (Does not feel pain despite being continuously impaled in combat),

Say it with me fellas: Pain Tolerance is not an ability

ZAGRED:

Creation and Summoning (Can summon physical matter such as weapons from nothing via "Storm of Blades"), Earth Manipulation (via Word Soul Magic; "Earth Shield"), Fire Manipulation (via Word Soul Magic; "Wave of Flames"), Limited Death Manipulation (via Word Soul Magic; "Wither"), Limited Matter Mnaipulation (Capable of bending matter to his will),

This is fine

Nacht:

Flight (Levitation and True-Flight with Mana Zone), Clairvoyance in Felis Mode (With Heaven's Door: Second Sight, Nacht is capable of sensing mana and peering through shadows to watch events. Even across the continent to watch the black bulls from Spade Kingdom).

He can use Manazone in base

Everything's fine except Clairvoyance. None of what you said is an example of this, and it would fall under Enhanced Senses

Naamah & Lilith:

Natural weaponry (via claws)

Megicula:

Pain Manipulation (any curse megicula inflicts causes intense pain)

As the Father of all curses, she gains the ability to cast any curse shown in Black Clover.

Status Effect Inducement (Curse power can cause the skin to keep bleeding out despite merely suffering a scratch), Time Manipulation (Charlotte's parents were trapped in a cage of time with a curse) Resistance Negation and Resistance to Sealing (Can negate the effects of Charlotte's roses, which have anti curse properties), Sense Manipulation (Curse magic is capable of hindering the five senses), Absorption (Henry's curse absorbs magic power from anyone in range), Disease Manipulation (Curse magic can cause sicknesses), Limited transmutation (Charlotte's roses turned from red to blue as an effect of her curse), Fire Manipulation, Acid Manipulation and Plant Manipulation (Gordon's family is affiliated with Curse Magic and his family made a contract with Megicula), Oil Manipulation (Gordon's Father uses oil based curse magic), Information Analysis (Nathan is capable of reading Asta's temperature and serach for physical abnormalities in his body), Clairvoyance (Nathan is capable of using Cursed Candle Ritual Disk to know the locations of every cursed individual in Clover Kingdom. The accuracy is reduced when range is increased to cover other countries), Resistance to Healing (Curses prevent wounds from healing).

This is fine except for Time Manipulation, which is an obvious hyperbole. Nathan's Clairvoyance is actual Clairvoyance because it falls under the whole "map creation" part, otherwise it would just be Enhanced Senses

Lucifero:

Power Nullification (Presence of demon king nullify spells), Power Bestowal (via Devil contract, Devil hosts can use all the abilities of a devil and draw devil power from the devil),

Then all of Dante's Gravoity Magic spells.

This is fine

Asta:

Resistance to Social Influencing,

Uh... From what?

.......................................................................... ............................. ................................................................................................. ARCANE STAGE .
Arcane Stage Magic is a type of magic that is unusual and can perform inexplicable actions in the world of black clover. This magic type is above the world's capabilities as it is able to perform actions that can't be done or undone with conventional magic. It affects the main world and otherworld. Humans or Elves, who were not born at that stage can attain this level of magic by corrupting their magic temporarily or permanently with Forbidden magic: using magic stones to draw power from the underworld, becoming a devil host by forming a contract with a devil to use their power, and activating a third eye. Please note that it is not a power level but an unconventional level. So one can still be a weak mage and be arcane stage at the same time. Anti Magic can negate spells on this level and is considered Arcane Stage.

With that said, Arcane Stage Magic is capable of affecting the laws of nature. It is also capable of affecting abstract concepts. Therefore those who are Arcane Stage should have Law Manipulation and Limited Conceptual Manipulation (type 2 & 3). Below is a list of arcane stage characters: (Click on the link on their names)

• Vanessa
• Grey
• Nero
• Licht
• Fana (Evil Third Eye)
• Vetto (Evil Third Eye)
• Raia (Evil Third Eye)
• Patolli (Barely)
• Yuno (Barely)
• Julius
• Lumiere
• Yami
• Nacht (Devil Union Mode Only)
• Asta
• William

Devils from the Underworld:

• Lucifero
• Megicula
• Zagred
• Naamah and Lillith
• Devil Physiology Blog

Pages that need to be created.

• Belzeebub
• Astaroth?
• Nero
• Lolopechka
• Damantio
• Others...

There are a lot of pages that need to be done in this verse.

Definitely not, and for the exact same reasons Mitch gave

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Okay, everyone relax.

Just Relax. Deep breath.

Alright so where do I start from.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Okay, everyone relax.

Just Relax. Deep breath.

I am perfectly calm

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah well, you're speaking for yourself cuz I'm not.

I'm drafting a response but I am busy atm so ill reply later

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Following.

Will definitely have to read through the rest that's being suggested above but there's something i found interesting.


The Zagred scan doesn't actually confirmed Licht has Forbidden "Magic" but rather a Forbidden "Spell"

Just because they both are stated to be "Forbidden" doesn't inherently mean Licht's spell came from Forbidden Magic.

You could say it implies it comes from Forbidden Magic but it definitely doesn't confirm it.

Yeah no problem, glad I piqued your interest : )

Btw Forbidden Spells use Forbidden Magic.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah, my first impressions are this is absolutely not going to happen

Vanessa's Law Manipulation as well as the specific Devil's Conceptual Manipulation are specific to them

We're not going to grant every single Arcane Stage Mage Law and Conceptual Manipulation just because they're Arcane Stage...

Okay, but that is taking away what Arcane Stage mages can do.

so we know Forbidden Magic is Arcane stage magic. And we know Forbidden Magic draws devil power from the underworld for its usage.

Dante says that Vanessa and Grey affect the laws of nature, because that is what Arcane Stage Magic is known to do. He groups Vanessa and grey in the same category thus implying magic that affect natural laws are inheretly the characteristicsof Arcane Stage.

So if Forbidden Magic affects the natural world, and if it is Arcane Stage. Why can't all Arcane stages have this?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Second thing to note, this is not at all how we hand out multipliers, I 100% disagree with this

For example, let's said Base Asta scales to a Baseline 7-A Calc, and then Black Asta scales to a Baseline High 7-A Calc

The gap between the form's AP Values is 10x

If after some training, Base Asta becomes Baseline High 7-A, we don't say "Well the previous gap between forms based on calcs was 10x, therefore it should be the exact same for this key"

That is a completely unreliable and unsupported way to get a multiplier, multipliers should never be dictated from solely AP Values from Calcs

I did say I was fine with only Zagred scaling to it.

If the multiplier can't be gotten this way then no problem.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Okay, but that is taking away what Arcane Stage mages can do.

so we know Forbidden Magic is Arcane stage magic. And we know Forbidden Magic draws devil power from the underworld for its usage.

Dante says that Vanessa and Grey affect the laws of nature, because that is what Arcane Stage Magic is known to do. He groups Vanessa and grey in the same category thus implying magic that affect natural laws are inheretly the characteristicsof Arcane Stage.

So if Forbidden Magic affects the natural world, and if it is Arcane Stage. Why can't all Arcane stages have this?

This is a VERY liberal use of what's being said here. It's more specific to what Vanessa and Grey specifically can do. We're not giving them all Law Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Oh god you went and did it...

Well, I've already discussed with you before how I find this whole devil heart durability argument thing to be absolutely atrocious. So, I'll tackle that later since it's its own beast. I'll talk about the other stuff first.

Yeah because it's not like there wasn't one other person who agreed with me when we discussed it .

Yeah np, we will talk about that whenever you are ready.

Iffy on Self-Sustenance, and I seriously need to emphasize that Pain Tolerance is not an ability that actually exists. Anyone that has that as an ability needs that removed. Inorganic Physiology and Telepathy should be fine though

Pain Tolerance is literally Resistance to Pain Manipulation. and thanks.

Doesn't Zenon already have Power Null? As for the Resistance to Deconstruction and Corrosion, I frankly think the way we treat Yuno's passive deconstruction is super wanked but given how all of Zagred, Zenon, and Lucifero resisted the corrosion of Spirit of Zephyr, it could honestly be something to add to the Devil Physiology page.

Yes, I will simply add further justifications dw about it. Although I almost dubbed it Status Effect because it nullifies and prevents magic from being cast. Zenon's bones could resist it too, and he wasn't in devil form but i don't really mind if you add it to the devil page.

Should be fine except for Pain Tolerance for the same reason I mentioned before

Thanks, and didn't you notice how people always link Pain Tolerance. It's just a fancy phrase for Resistance to Pain Manipulation.

This is fine

Thanks, bro.

Uh... From what?

Apart from the big goal he has. He accomplishes other goals regardless of the seemingly impossible odds against him which could discourage a normal person.

Say it with me fellas: Pain Tolerance is not an ability

No fella is going to say it with you because they know how popular the word usage is. I can change it to Resistance to Pain Manipulation.

This is fine

Thanks, man.

Everything's fine except Clairvoyance. None of what you said is an example of this, and it would fall under Enhanced Senses

Enhanced Sight is under Clairvoyance and peering through shadows is quite similar to Visual linking which is a type of Clairvoyance.

That's why I judged it as Clairvoyance

This is fine except for Time Manipulation, which is an obvious hyperbole. Nathan's Clairvoyance is actual Clairvoyance because it falls under the whole "map creation" part, otherwise it would just be Enhanced Senses

Thanks. Why is Time Manipulation an "obvious" hyperbole? It's a Forbidden Magic curse capable of trapping her parents in a cage of time. Nathan's Clairvoyance isn't the only Type, and not all users need a medium. Like saying Raven's Phychic ability (from That's So Raven) isn't clairvoyance because it doesn't have a medium.

Definitely not, and for the exact same reasons Mitch gave

This is a VERY liberal use of what's being said here. It's more specific to what Vanessa and Grey specifically can do. We're not giving them all Law Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation

What do you mean a very liberal use?

Dante literally implied that Arcane Stages affect natural laws. He grouped Yami, Grey, and Vannessa in the same category. Yami's dark magic and Forbidden Magic use power from the underworld. Morris could interact with Fate thanks to this power, and Lucifero exerts his gravity against Fate itself. All this gives context to what that scan of Forbidden Magic's influence on the world means. All Arcane Stages should have those abilities.

Tell me why they shouldn't.

 

[Panache_x]

Nice
Following
Haven't seen why the Arcane ideology is being solidly discredited yet from all this...it seems ok

 

[Tatsumi504]

Following

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Thanks. Why is Time Manipulation an "obvious" hyperbole? It's a Forbidden Magic curse capable of trapping her parents in a cage of time.

Forbidden magic was also used to send souls into the future so it's clearly not far-fetched or hyperbolic for Forbidden magic to perform another time related curse.

 

[speedster352]

I agree with everything

 

[Arkenis]

With that said, Arcane Stage Magic is capable of affecting the laws of nature. It is also capable of affecting abstract concepts. Therefore those who are Arcane Stage should have Law Manipulation and Limited Conceptual Manipulation (type 2 & 3). Below is a list of arcane stage characters: (Click on the link on their names)

My main issue is that this implies Dante's Gravity Magic is now Law based Gravity Magic which isn't implied or stated to be the control of the "law of gravity" so I disagree with Law manip. Concept manip doesn't make sense, they would just get npi for being able to effect concepts which is fine.

 

[Arkenis]

Limited Death Manipulation (via Word Soul Magic; "Wither"),

Yeah I disagree with this, Wither doesn't imply death, it is more like corrosion inducement or Age Manipulation considering its done only to planets I'm inclined to think corrosion inducement is better since wither is about the decaying of plants.

As the Father of all curses, she gains the ability to cast any curse shown in Black Clover.

Status Effect Inducement (Curse power can cause the skin to keep bleeding out despite merely suffering a scratch), Time Manipulation (Charlotte's parents were trapped in a cage of time with a curse) Resistance Negation and Resistance to Sealing (Can negate the effects of Charlotte's roses, which have anti curse properties), Sense Manipulation (Curse magic is capable of hindering the five senses), Absorption (Henry's curse absorbs magic power from anyone in range), Disease Manipulation (Curse magic can cause sicknesses), Limited transmutation (Charlotte's roses turned from red to blue as an effect of her curse), Fire Manipulation, Acid Manipulation and Plant Manipulation (Gordon's family is affiliated with Curse Magic and his family made a contract with Megicula), Oil Manipulation (Gordon's Father uses oil based curse magic), Information Analysis (Nathan is capable of reading Asta's temperature and serach for physical abnormalities in his body), Clairvoyance (Nathan is capable of using Cursed Candle Ritual Disk to know the locations of every cursed individual in Clover Kingdom. The accuracy is reduced when range is increased to cover other countries), Resistance to Healing (Curses prevent wounds from healing).

fine with this line of reasoning

 

[Arnoldstone18]

My main issue is that this implies Dante's Gravity Magic is now Law based Gravity Magic which isn't implied or stated to be the control of the "law of gravity" so I disagree with Law manip. Concept manip doesn't make sense, they would just get npi for being able to effect concepts which is fine.

How does it not imply he controls the laws of gravity?

Apart from conventional gravity manipulation. Dante is capable of warping space itself via gravity magic. In physics, we know that gravity warps space and Dante is doing so to teleport and divert attacks. This implies he is manipulating one of the laws of physics. On top of the fact that he is using Lucifero's magic which is capable of affecting Fate itself AND the fact that devil power is already generally accepted to be capable of affecting the shape of the BC world with the power to break in-verse laws too and manipulate concepts.

And speaking of manipulating concepts. Affecting concepts are under Conceptual Manipulation, not NPI. It is not NPI because the concepts were not interacted with like physical objects. Morris is basically altering concepts to nullify their magic and one-shot people thanks to devil power.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah I disagree with this, Wither doesn't imply death, it is more like corrosion inducement or Age Manipulation considering its done only to planets I'm inclined to think corrosion inducement is better since wither is about the decaying of plants.

Corrosion inducement is fine.

when plants wither, they die. I guess I ignored the dying process and added the result of that process instead.

 

[Panache_x]

I agree with everything

Oh great
We have the master agreer who probably hasn't read the thread

 

[16sa_vage]

Oh great
We have the master agreer who probably hasn't read the thread

Lmao.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Pain Tolerance is literally Resistance to Pain Manipulation. and thanks.

Should've never been that way. Pain Manipulation is very much its own thing. "Pain Tolerance" does not exist on the wiki, those are just stamina feats.

Enhanced Sight is under Clairvoyance and peering through shadows is quite similar to Visual linking which is a type of Clairvoyance.

That's why I judged it as Clairvoyance

I should've been clearer about this: Enhanced Sight, on the Clairvoyance page, is stated to also be treated as a form of Enhanced Senses.

Thanks. Why is Time Manipulation an "obvious" hyperbole? It's a Forbidden Magic curse capable of trapping her parents in a cage of time.

I'm noticing a recurring problem: You always take flowery language literally. Not once does the curse actually trap the Roselei family in this "cage of time," it's flowery language to describe how she'll forever be cursed with this. Looking at the phrase in context, that much should be obvious.

Forbidden magic was also used to send souls into the future so it's clearly not far-fetched or hyperbolic for Forbidden magic to perform another time related curse.

Only a high tier Forbidden Spell could do this, and it wasn't so much sending them into the future. Rather, the souls were being suspended.

What do you mean a very liberal use?

Dante literally implied that Arcane Stages affect natural laws. He grouped Yami, Grey, and Vannessa in the same category.

He did not imply arcane stages affect natural laws. He implied that Vanessa's and Grey's specifically do (Vanessa overturns fate and Grey can rearrange someone's very structure, very much manipulating natural laws by undoing what should've been certain death)

Yami's dark magic and Forbidden Magic use power from the underworld. Morris could interact with Fate thanks to this power, and Lucifero exerts his gravity against Fate itself. All this gives context to what that scan of Forbidden Magic's influence on the world means. All Arcane Stages should have those abilities.

Tell me why they shouldn't.

They use power from the Underworld, yes. That power is described as "supernatural," but never once is Arcane Stage in a general case noted to manipulate the natural laws. Lucifero's case is a case of how overwhelming his raw power is. Morris' case is an amplification of his already-existing abilities, and no one else has replicated such a thing, so I can't in good faith say this is general for Arcane Stages.

 

[PrinceofPein]

How does it not imply he controls the laws of gravity?

Apart from conventional gravity manipulation. Dante is capable of warping space itself via gravity magic. In physics, we know that gravity warps space and Dante is doing so to teleport and divert attacks. This implies he is manipulating one of the laws of physics. On top of the fact that he is using Lucifero's magic which is capable of affecting Fate itself AND the fact that devil power is already generally accepted to be capable of affecting the shape of the BC world with the power to break in-verse laws too and manipulate concepts.

And speaking of manipulating concepts. Affecting concepts are under Conceptual Manipulation, not NPI. It is not NPI because the concepts were not interacted with like physical objects. Morris is basically altering concepts to nullify their magic and one-shot people thanks to devil power.

Might read the rest later
But right here
All conventional gravity manipulation is physics manipulation and altering the laws of physics, should we give them all physics manipulation??

And almost half of all gravity manip user can alter space by increasing mass of an object, that is still conventional gravity none of them has law manip.

While there maybe other feats of law manip, all what you said in this post is not it.

 

[Tatsumi504]

I agree with everything

What is up with you and agreeing to everything all the time

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Might read the rest later
But right here
All conventional gravity manipulation is physics manipulation and altering the laws of physics, should we give them all physics manipulation??

And almost half of all gravity manip user can alter space by increasing mass of an object, that is still conventional gravity none of them has law manip.

While there maybe other feats of law manip, all what you said in this post is not it.

I was drafting a response for CloverDragon when I saw this. Still am, just saved as draft

No, we can't give them all physics manipulation because the subset ability (Gravity Manipulation) already covers this. However, physics manipulation is also possible with Law Manipulation. wdym over half? now you're probably exaggerating. list 10. So that's why I included that along with the fact that Forbidden Magic can change inverse laws which you dismissed without even addressing but you will see it again in detail in my response to CloverDragon. It's 2 am so I may not be able to post it soon.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I was drafting a response for CloverDragon when I saw this. Still am, just saved as draft

No, we can't give them all physics manipulation because the subset ability (Gravity Manipulation) already covers this. However, physics manipulation is also possible with Law Manipulation. wdym over half? now you're probably exaggerating. list 10. So that's why I included that along with the fact that Forbidden Magic can change inverse laws which you dismissed without even addressing but you will see it again in detail in my response to CloverDragon. It's 2 am so I may not be able to post it soon.

Like I said someone manipulating gravity and warping space is just a one of the attributes of gravity manip and increase in mass, not physics or law manip.
So you using that as one of the reason is flawed, like I already explained, I’m only concerned about this point for now.

 

[speedster352]

I agree with everything that clover agrees with

 

[16sa_vage]

I agree with everything that clover agrees with

Shocking.

 

[Panache_x]

I agree with everything that clover agrees with

Then u have no contribution or say here
And try analysing for urself for once
Knowledge isn't that fast... afteralll u're a Speedster

 

[speedster352]

Then u have no contribution or say here
And try analysing for urself for once
Knowledge isn't that fast... afteralll u're a Speedster

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[Panache_x]

What is that supposed to mean?

Nothing
I meant Ur impute is highly appreciated
I'm awaiting Ur next NNT CRT btw

 

[speedster352]

Nothing
I meant Ur impute is highly appreciated
I'm awaiting Ur next NNT CRT btw

That sounds a bit spiteful

 

[16sa_vage]

What is that supposed to mean?

I think what he’s trying to say is that you don’t understand anything or rather aren’t contributing or even analysing what has been laid out so all your only purpose is to agree with what someone else agrees with, in other words you should learn to think for yourself.