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BLACK CLOVER CRT: THE UNDERWORLD (1 of 3 Additions)

CloverDragon03 said:
Should've never been that way. Pain Manipulation is very much its own thing. "Pain Tolerance" does not exist on the wiki, those are just stamina feats.
Click to expand...
Okay, so I will change the name.

CloverDragon03 said:
I'm noticing a recurring problem: You always take flowery language literally. Not once does the curse actually trap the Roselei family in this "cage of time," it's flowery language to describe how she'll forever be cursed with this. Looking at the phrase in context, that much should be obvious.
Only a high tier Forbidden Spell could do this, and it wasn't so much sending them into the future. Rather, the souls were being suspended.
Click to expand...

No, Zagred sent the souls to the future.

And if Zagred did this with a regular forbidden magic spell, why can't Charlotte's Forbidden Magic curse be capable of trapping her and her family in a cage of time? Also, where did the claim -- "Only a high tier Forbidden Spell could do this" --come from? These are just regular Forbidden Magic spells.

It is not flowery language because it contradicts nothing and It is a very serious situation. Charlotte broke the curse already before it took effect so why are you using the fact that the curse never happened to support your flowery language claim? So NO. It doesn't mean Charlotte will be cursed forever, it can be taken literally because it is consistent. Like I said earlier, Forbidden magic is known to do things like this because it uses devil power. Also, invalidating a claim because you think it is obvious doesn't make it obvious. Explain what makes it "obvious".

CloverDragon03 said:
He did not imply arcane stages affect natural laws. He implied that Vanessa's and Grey's specifically do (Vanessa overturns fate and Grey can rearrange someone's very structure, very much manipulating natural laws by undoing what should've been certain death)
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Dante expects Arcane Stages to be capable of affecting Natural Laws. He grouped Yami, Vanessa, and Grey under the same category. When he saw Vanessa's magic rewriting death he immediately grouped her under Arcane because of her ability. As you said, when he saw Grey rearrange the structure of the human body to heal a lethal wound, he referred to it as Arcane Stage. Vanessa also said Nero can do what Grey did, Nero is already Arcane Stage. It also implies that if Dante saw Nero do it, he would notice her instead of Grey. Vetto literally did this using Forbidden Magic, nobody is capable of this feat except arcane stage mages. Now, do you see why Forbidden Magic is grouped as Arcane Stage in the first place? Do you see how this implies that Dante is using the fact that spells affecting natural laws are just an Arcane Sta,ge criterion? So Yes, he did imply that arcane stage affects natural laws and it is consistent with what mages on that level are capable of.

CloverDragon03 said:
They use power from the Underworld, yes. That power is described as "supernatural," but never once is Arcane Stage in a general case noted to manipulate the natural laws. Lucifero's case is a case of how overwhelming his raw power is. Morris' case is an amplification of his already-existing abilities, and no one else has replicated such a thing, so I can't in good faith say this is general for Arcane Stages.
Click to expand...

Arcane Stage is also described as "Supernatural" in the world of Black Clover, that is why power from the underworld is under the criteria for Arcane Stage. Yami, Vanessa, and Grey are grouped by Dante as being capable of manipulating natural laws. The bulk of that list in OP is Forbidden Magic users. They use the same power Yami and Devils use. It seems like any Forbidden Magic feat I show you, you undermine it, dismiss it as flowery language or flat out ignore it.

Forbidden Magic can change the shape of the world

  • interfere with concepts such as manipulating the functions of magic and destroying concepts.
  • literally do things that magic is incapable of doing,
  • manipulate the laws of nature in the verse by merely casting forbidden magic spells outside of personal magic such as sending things through time, resurrection via reincarnation, forcing a Fire Spirit to use diamond and fire magic simultaneously, etc.


Obviously, things that manipulate the laws of nature are supernatural in their world. Forbidden Magic users are capable of interfering with natural laws.

Devils literally manipulating the laws of physics with their magic is an added bonus, curses are derived from megicula's power and see how these curses disturb the laws of nature in more than one aspect. @Pain_to12.

it's glaringly obvious at this point that all arcane stage magic transcends and manipulates the natural laws in black clover. Dante's words imply that Arcane Stage powers, are not just supernatural, but they are capable of casting spells that affect natural laws: ("spell that can interfere with natural laws" = "Arcane Stage" because he used the phrase "you're an arcane stage too" to classify grey and Vanessa as both doing the same things. Yami and Vengeance too. And by default everyone with the status of Arcane Stage because all of them already manipulate natural laws.)

As for Conceptual Manipulation, Morris had devil power already. Lucifero merely gave him more of that power + gravity magic. However, I'm okay with only Morris, Naamah, and Lillith having the ability. Even though it's due to their devil power which most Arcane Stage mages have. I'll wait a couple of months before I pick that back up, if nothing else helps this case ill drop it.
 
Pain_to12 said:
Like I said someone manipulating gravity and warping space is just a one of the attributes of gravity manip and increase in mass, not physics or law manip.
Click to expand...

after saying

Pain_to12 said:
All conventional gravity manipulation is physics manipulation and altering the laws of physics
Click to expand...


You are merely just nitpicking and using the point to appeal to the fact that people don't rate gravity manipulators as law manipulation on vsbattle wiki. And disregarding everything i said on that post that isn't related to that point.

It's so dumb because you and I already know gravity manipulation alters the laws of physics. So I'm sorry if it is a popular belief that gravity manipulation isn't manipulating the laws of physics on vsbattle wiki. I am only using the truth as one example out of many.

If you don't like it, how does this sound (since its an in-verse truth):

There is no magic in black clover capable of regenerating the way Dante does. Thanks to devil power, Dante is capable of negating that truth/law.

How does that sound? Cuz I could've just said that instead.
 
Arkenis said:
At best if we took this to mean literal laws then it would only be the ones shown which is gravity
Click to expand...

Yeah, but my point revolves around the fact that devil power manipulates the laws of nature

  • only devils can manipulate one of the laws of physics as their magic type.
  • Humans and Elves can manipulate one or more laws of not just physics but the nature of the world itself depending on the forbidden magic spell they use.
  • Forbidden magic users are collected under arcane stage because devil magic can manipulate the natural laws of the BC world.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Doesn't Zenon already have Power Null? As for the Resistance to Deconstruction and Corrosion, I frankly think the way we treat Yuno's passive deconstruction is super wanked but given how all of Zagred, Zenon, and Lucifero resisted the corrosion of Spirit of Zephyr, it could honestly be something to add to the Devil Physiology page.
Click to expand...
Has Yuno ever used his "deconstruction" in combat?
 
SuperStar said:
Has Yuno ever used his "deconstruction" in combat?
Click to expand...
It's a passive ability that he believes is a bit wanked.

Its debut was against Zagred and Since then Yuno only went against those who neg the passive deconstruction and his corrosion, except Langris which he fought from a distance most of the time. Although I too agree that it's pretty wanked, it still exists nonetheless.
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
You are merely just nitpicking and using the point to appeal to the fact that people don't rate gravity manipulators as law manipulation on vsbattle wiki. And disregarding everything i said on that post that isn't related to that point.

It's so dumb because you and I already know gravity manipulation alters the laws of physics. So I'm sorry if it is a popular belief that gravity manipulation isn't manipulating the laws of physics on vsbattle wiki. I am only using the truth as one example out of many.
Click to expand...
I don’t care if you call it nitpicking
We don’t grant physics or law manip to people who manipulate gravity.

So someone manipulating gravity is not a proof of law manipulation you can find others tho
 
Pain_to12 said:
I don’t care if you call it nitpicking
We don’t grant physics or law manip to people who manipulate gravity.

So someone manipulating gravity is not a proof of law manipulation you can find others tho
Click to expand...

You should care because your claim is wrong.

I am not saying "give Dante Law Manipulation on his vsbattle wiki page for having gravity manipulation". I am saying that manipulating fundamental laws like Gravity is only possibly thanks to the devil's power.

What I am saying is "give Dante Law Manipulation on his vsbattle wiki profile because he uses Devil Power." You would've understood this if you acknowledged my entire argument as a whole rather than nitpicking a single point to discredit everything.
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
You should care because your claim is wrong.

I am not saying "give Dante Law Manipulation on his vsbattle wiki page for having gravity manipulation". I am saying that manipulating fundamental laws like Gravity is only possibly thanks to the devil's power.

What I am saying is "give Dante Law Manipulation on his vsbattle wiki profile because he uses Devil Power." You would've understood this if you acknowledged my entire argument as a whole rather than nitpicking a single point to discredit everything.
Click to expand...
Or rather give people with devil powers the abilities they were shown to have
 
Pain_to12 said:
Nope you want to generalize their powers when it was specific and to each their own
It’s like giving all magic users law manip
Click to expand...

Fortunately, that's not what I'm doing.

They all have feats that are backed up by Dante's statement. So you should go back and read my entire argument again. Thanks for your input.
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
Yeah, but my point revolves around the fact that devil power manipulates the laws of nature

  • only devils can manipulate one of the laws of physics as their magic type.
  • Humans and Elves can manipulate one or more laws of not just physics but the nature of the world itself depending on the forbidden magic spell they use.
  • Forbidden magic users are collected under arcane stage because devil magic can manipulate the natural laws of the BC world.
Click to expand...
Only one devil has this Gravity manip though right? We wouldn't give Lilith and Naamah law manip for their ice and fire.
 
Arkenis said:
Only one devil has this Gravity manip though right? We wouldn't give Lilith and Naamah law manip for their ice and fire.
Click to expand...
The gist of everything is that their magic breaks conventional laws of the verse. Flame and Ice isn't all they use their magic for as Devils.

The Devil Fire magic and Devil Ice magic themselves are implied to literally burn and freeze everything in the verse.

Dante's body magic breaks the natural laws of the verse. No matter how powerful conventional magic is nobody is coming back from Yami's death thrust.

The list goes on. Dante's statement and choice of words gives context and solidifies everything about Arcane Stage.
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
The gist of everything is that their magic breaks conventional laws of the verse. Flame and Ice isn't all they use their magic for as Devils.

The Devil Fire magic and Devil Ice magic themselves are implied to literally burn and freeze everything in the verse
Click to expand...
Them burning "everything" does not make it law manipulation. Effecting a law does not grant law Manipulation,
 
Arkenis said:
Can be resistance to natural laws. Vanessa's Cat can resist or bypass the effects of gravity magic, Asta can nullify it.
Click to expand...
Vanessa doesn't resist it, she bypasses it. She bypasses anything that is dangerous to her and her family. She bypasses even Death. She manipulates the laws of nature via the laws of causality.

Asta negs that and he can even manipulate his own laws of causality regarding magic with the demon destroyer as an added bonus.

And others who qualify for Arcane Stage have their own feats that impose their own laws on conventional reality.


If all of these don't grant Law Manipulation, what does?
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
Vanessa doesn't resist it, she bypasses it. She bypasses anything that is dangerous to her and her family. She bypasses even Death. She manipulates the laws of nature via the laws of causality.

Asta negs that and he can even manipulate his own laws of causality regarding magic with the demon destroyer as an added bonus.

And others who qualify for Arcane Stage have their own feats that impose their own laws on conventional reality.


If all of these don't grant Law Manipulation, what does?
Click to expand...
The thing being an actual Law and not “natural laws“
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
That's not what I asked.
Click to expand...
You asked what's the difference and I told you, Law Manipulation is control over laws themselves, Gravity Manipulation is control over the physical aspect of the Law of Gravity in nature. If you don't like this explanation or think I'm just wrong then wait for some other opinions ig
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
No



What is the difference between actual Laws and natural laws
Click to expand...
not really a difference in general, more of a contextual difference. Dante’s talking about gravity, the physical aspect since that’s all we know he knows about and not the Law of Gravity.
 
Arkenis said:
not really a difference in general, more of a contextual difference. Dante’s talking about gravity, the physical aspect since that’s all we know he knows about and not the Law of Gravity.
Click to expand...

No, Dante was talking about something else. I was the one who mentioned gravity, little did I know someone would nitpick the gravity part and use how people rate profiles on this site as a counterargument to common sense lol. I also said body magic bypasses conventional healing too but it got ignored. Just read the first paragraph of the summary im about to send for what Dante was talking about.

FYI gravity isn't physical. Like @Pain_to12 and I said, Gravity Manipulation influence the laws of gravity. So like you said, there is no difference. cuz law is a law. It is just unnecessary to add physics/law manipulation to profiles when gravity is already an ability on wiki lol.
 
SUMMARY OF MY ARGUMENT

Dante notices a spell that manipulates natural laws. He went to find the source of the spell and saw a woman named Vanessa. Later on, he notices another woman named Grey. He noticed Grey removed the massive sword embedded in Gauche and proceeds to heal his lethal wound. Dante claimed she too is an Arcane Stage mage. Vanessa stated that Nero is capable of performing a similar feat to Grey, Nero was already stated to be Arcane back in Hearts Kingdom. All of this implies that spells that interfere with natural laws are arcane stage spells. When Dante and Yami met, Yami used Dimension Slash, and Dante said he expects nothing less from an Arcane Stage. Dante also noted William's magic to be arcane stage too.

Forbidden magic was stated by Lolopechka to be arcane stage magic. Charolette stated that Forbidden magic changes the shape of the world. Zagred also claimed that Forbidden Magic makes use of power from the underworld which is also a power used by Dark Magic. Vetto used Forbidden Magic to regenerate an arm and parts of his chest. Fana used Forbidden Magic to recreate an entire upper body. Vetto and Fana's feats are superior to Grey's. So on and so forth. Fana changed the magic of a spiritual being that only exists to manipulate fire into fire and diamond magic. All of this points to the fact that Arcane Stage interferes with natural laws.

All important points are in bold. In conclusion, Arcane stage magic affects natural laws through feats and statements that give Dante's statement even more credibility than he already has. Black Clover is a magical verse however there are natural laws put in place to limit magic. These laws are constantly broken by Arcane Stage magic all the time. The laws that prevent healers from healing lost limbs and severed body parts are bypassed by Forbidden Magic users, Nero and Grey. The laws of causality are altered by Vanessa and Asta. The laws that separate the world from the underworld are bypassed by Forbidden Magic users, Yami and William e.t.c. Words like inexplicable, illogical, and supernatural, can and have been used to describe Arcane Stage magic. All Arcane Stage mages should get Law Manipulation on their profiles and not just the ones Dante referred to as Arcane Stage because every other Arcane Stages are capable of doing the same things if not better.
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
No, Dante was talking about something else. I was the one who mentioned gravity, little did I know someone would nitpick the gravity part and use how people rate profiles on this site as a counterargument to common sense lol. I also said body magic bypasses conventional healing too but it got ignored. Just read the first paragraph of the summary im about to send for what Dante was talking about.

FYI gravity isn't physical. Like @Pain_to12 and I said, Gravity Manipulation influence the laws of gravity. So like you said, there is no difference. cuz law is a law. It is just unnecessary to add physics/law manipulation to profiles when gravity is already an ability on wiki lol.
Click to expand...
Dante was literally talking about vanessa and asta being able to interfere with his gravity. And I do not mean physical in the literal sense, I mean the physical aspects of gravity aka its affects.
0241-003.png

0241-004.png
 
Arkenis said:
Dante was literally talking about vanessa and asta being able to interfere with his gravity. And I do not mean physical in the literal sense, I mean the physical aspects of gravity aka its affects.
Click to expand...

No, Dante was not specific about the laws being manipulated. He saw Vanessa’s spell that goes against natural order and immediately knew it was an arcane stage because Arcane Stages defy natural laws.


And to be clear. Manipulating Natural Laws is literally Law Manipulation.

XME69Nm.jpg





So can we please go back to the main argument of whether or not Dante meant Arcane Stages manipulate natural laws?
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
No, Dante was not specific about the laws being manipulated. He saw Vanessa’s spell that goes against natural order and immediately knew it was an arcane stage because Arcane Stages defy natural laws.


And to be clear. Manipulating Natural Laws is literally Law Manipulation.

XME69Nm.jpg





So can we please go back to the main argument of whether or not Dante meant Arcane Stages manipulate natural laws?
Click to expand...
Dante's referring to Gravity. How do u not get this?
 
Arkenis said:
Dante's referring to Gravity. How do u not get this?
Click to expand...

It could literally be anything.

What are you implying anyway? If its gravity he referred to as "natural laws", which doesn't make sense, are you implying that Vanessa has resistance to gravity manipulation?
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
It could literally be anything.

What are you implying anyway? If its gravity he referred to as "natural laws", which doesn't make sense, are you implying that Vanessa has resistance to gravity manipulation?
Click to expand...
His ability is literally gravity manip and Vanessa interfered with it, that's the "natural law" he's referring to. Vanessa has no resistance, she just has a higher form of hax called Fate manip. Fate Manipulation > Gravity Manipulation
 
Arkenis said:
His ability is literally gravity manip and Vanessa interfered with it, that's the "natural law" he's referring to. Vanessa has no resistance, she just has a higher form of hax called Fate manip. Fate Manipulation > Gravity Manipulation
Click to expand...

So you are twisting Dante's words from "Natural Laws*" to the law of gravity. So you can make a claim that Vanessa's Fate Manipulation is law-based because it can affect even the law of gravity. So what have you accomplished?


and you should go through possible uses under law manipulation page
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
So you are twisting Dante's words from "Natural Laws*" to the law of gravity. So you can make a claim that Vanessa's Fate Manipulation is law-based because it can affect even the law of gravity. So what have you accomplished?


and you should go through possible uses under law manipulation page
Click to expand...
I'm not twisting anything, He says that in reference to her interfering with his Gravity, Gravity is a "natural law". I literally disagree with anything being law based here.
 
Arkenis said:
I'm not twisting anything, He says that in reference to her interfering with his Gravity, Gravity is a "natural law". I literally disagree with anything being law based here.
Click to expand...
It was pluralism
He didn't subject to "natural Law" but laws
If u're saying his Gravity is what he was referencing that's an ideology for singularity
And going with ur "he referenced Gravity" that would then mean Gravity is one of the Law amongst other indirectly referenced Laws
 
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