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BLACK CLOVER CRT: THE UNDERWORLD (1 of 3 Additions)

Panache_x said:
It was pluralism
He didn't subject to "natural Law" but laws
If u're saying his Gravity is what he was referencing that's an ideology for singularity
And going with ur "he referenced Gravity" that would then mean Gravity is one of the Law amongst other indirectly referenced Laws
Click to expand...

yeah I thought he was doing that singular stuff by accident until he does it like 3 more times to force his point across.
 
Panache_x said:
It was pluralism
He didn't subject to "natural Law" but laws
If u're saying his Gravity is what he was referencing that's an ideology for singularity
And going with ur "he referenced Gravity" that would then mean Gravity is one of the Law amongst other indirectly referenced Laws
Click to expand...
Because that's the only Law he's referring to, unless there's another "natural law" that was effected then I don't think the pluralism matters here, Dante's obviously assuming it can effect multiple but is that shown? And I know Gravity is a law but in this context Vanessa's effecting the physical aspect i.e controlling matter with gravity.
 
Arkenis said:
Because that's the only Law he's referring to, unless there's another "natural law" that was effected then I don't think the pluralism matters here, Dante's obviously assuming it can effect multiple but is that shown? And I know Gravity is a law but in this context Vanessa's effecting the physical aspect i.e controlling matter with gravity.
Click to expand...
💀☠️
"the pluralism doesn't matter"??
I seriously can't have this kinda debate
That's the only law he directly Referenced and referenced Others with the pluralism
U can't rule out a statement simply cause "u think"
Fate Manipulation
Time Manipulation
Spatial Manipulation
Conceptual interference
These are things Arcane Mages are able to achieve cause of being "Arcane Stage"
I still don't get the Subjectivity honestly

Then what physical aspect in reference to the matter her was controlling?
That's not even a "Law" that would warrant a statement of that level
So if any character Affects matter that is Manipulated by Gravity... it's safe to say the character interfered with a "Law?

And he made that statement after Asta was saved by rouge and not her interfering with "physical aspect
 
Panache_x said:
💀☠️
"the pluralism doesn't matter"??
Click to expand...
Yes it doesn't matter if you can't site the other laws he's referring to.

Panache_x said:
Fate Manipulation
Time Manipulation
Spatial Manipulation
Conceptual interference
Click to expand...
Are you siting these as the laws? Idk, please clarify.

Panache_x said:
These are things Arcane Mages are able to achieve cause of being "Arcane Stage"
I still don't get the Subjectivity honestly
Click to expand...
It is not subjectivity I'm siting how Law Manipulation works and why these examples aren't it.

Panache_x said:
Then what physical aspect in reference to the matter her was controlling?
Click to expand...
Idk if you missed something here but I'm saying Dante's gravity magic affects physical things, Dante's control over gravity is physical i.e he can control it physically not control the Law itself which is what Law Manipulation would be.

Panache_x said:
That's not even a "Law" that would warrant a statement of that level
Click to expand...
Anything can be a Law in fiction so idk what you're going on about.

Panache_x said:
So if any character Affects matter that is Manipulated by Gravity... it's safe to say the character interfered with a "Law?
Click to expand...
You're not understanding, Vanessa didn't affect the matter, she interfered with the Gravity controlling it via her fate manip so no affecting matter that is controlled by Gravity does not grant law manipulation.

If you look on Law Manipulation page Physics Manipulation is sited as a possible use and then ofc Gravity and Physics Manipulation can go hand in hand so at the base of this argument you guys are arguing for a watered down version of Law Manipulation which we wouldn't even call Law Manipulation, it'd just be it's specific thing i.e Gravity Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Physics Manipulation
 
Arkenis said:
Because that's the only Law he's referring to, unless there's another "natural law" that was effected then I don't think the pluralism matters here, Dante's obviously assuming it can effect multiple but is that shown? And I know Gravity is a law but in this context Vanessa's effecting the physical aspect i.e controlling matter with gravity.
Click to expand...

Its laws, not law.

At least stop using quotes if you are going to quote incorrectly
 
Arkenis said:
If you look on Law Manipulation page Physics Manipulation is sited as a possible use and then ofc Gravity and Physics Manipulation can go hand in hand so at the base of this argument you guys are arguing for a watered down version of Law Manipulation which we wouldn't even call Law Manipulation, it'd just be it's specific thing i.e Gravity Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Physics Manipulation
Click to expand...


Okay no, this is wrong.

My initial argument didn't even use this as a full premise. I gave MANY premises. Pain_to12 decided to nitpick one of those premises because i guess it's the easiest to attack. And the only reason that premise even existed in the first place was that YOU began to talk about Dante's gravity not being law based. I said gravity manipulation manipulates the laws of physics and Pain took it as me saying "Dante should get law manipulation from Gravity manipulation". NOBODY IS CALLING GRAVITY MANIPULATION, LAW MANIPULATION.

My argument is Arcane Stages defy the natural laws of the verse. CloverDragon and DGM said only Vanessa and Grey by extension should have it and YOU are saying none of the above based on some weird interpretation of what Dante said or something. Dante said "Laws" which already means that he is not referring to gravity alone, we don't even know IF he is referring to gravity AT ALL, but Dante could also be referring to death, causality, etc. Again, we know gravity manipulation is a "watered down version" of Law manipulation but its still a law being manipulated and that is literally not the only law we are referring to. Address everything, not just little bits and pieces that are "wrong" in an argument. it's irritating as hell.
 
Panache_x said:
Really busy now
Sorry... I'll give replies later

And the multi posting is too much
Click to expand...
I didn't multi post, I responded to ya when ya responded to me LOL.

Arnoldstone18 said:
My initial argument didn't even use this as a full premise. I gave MANY premises. Pain_to12 decided to nitpick one of those premises because i guess it's the easiest to attack. And the only reason that premise even existed in the first place was that YOU began to talk about Dante's gravity not being law based. I said gravity manipulation manipulates the laws of physics and Pain took it as me saying "Dante should get law manipulation from Gravity manipulation". NOBODY IS CALLING GRAVITY MANIPULATION, LAW MANIPULATION.
Click to expand...
YOU ARE LITERALLY DOING THAT. Dante is referring to his gravity being interfered with when Vanessa interfered with it, therefore you are arguing the Gravity is now Law based, if you do not think that then you literally drop her having law manip.

0241-003.png

0241-004.png

Do you see this? Dante is saying his Gravity magic is being interfered with here, Vanessa's magic is doing that.

Arnoldstone18 said:
My argument is Arcane Stages defy the natural laws of the verse. CloverDragon and DGM said only Vanessa and Grey by extension should have it and YOU are saying none of the above based on some weird interpretation of what Dante said or something. Dante said "Laws" which already means that he is not referring to gravity alone, we don't even know IF he is referring to gravity AT ALL, but Dante could also be referring to death, causality, etc. Again, we know gravity manipulation is a "watered down version" of Law manipulation but its still a law being manipulated and that is literally not the only law we are referring to. Address everything, not just little bits and pieces that are "wrong" in an argument. it's irritating as hell.
Click to expand...
Like said above, if we give someone law manip for interfering with Gravity manip then everyone who can manipulate gravity has law manip. And since we do not know what other laws he could be referring to why would we even take this at face value?

Bro I don't really care to argue after your response to this, other's disagree with it not just me and we clearly are not getting anywhere with this so we can just wait for mods to give opinions on this.
 
Arkenis said:
I didn't multi post, I responded to ya when ya responded to me LOL.


YOU ARE LITERALLY DOING THAT. Dante is referring to his gravity being interfered with when Vanessa interfered with it, therefore you are arguing the Gravity is now Law based, if you do not think that then you literally drop her having law manip.



Do you see this? Dante is saying his Gravity magic is being interfered with here, Vanessa's magic is doing that.


Like said above, if we give someone law manip for interfering with Gravity manip then everyone who can manipulate gravity has law manip. And since we do not know what other laws he could be referring to why would we even take this at face value?

Bro I don't really care to argue after your response to this, other's disagree with it not just me and we clearly are not getting anywhere with this so we can just wait for mods to give opinions on this.
Click to expand...



Your entire rebuttal is centered on your interpretation of what Dante referred to as Natural Laws.

  • In your scan, Asta dies.
  • In your scan, the gravity on the trees is redirecting the trees elsewhere.
  • She overwrote death and interfered with gravity by manipulating the laws of causality (Fate)

These are already three laws that govern nature from your scan alone.


Dante: A spell that manipulates natural laws, I didn't know there was another Arcane Stage here.
Dante (to Grey): Oh so you are an Arcane Stage too??


  • Me: Dante says Arcane Stage mages manipulate the laws of Nature (proceeds to prove many instances where most Arcane Stage mages manipulated natural laws)
  • CloverDragon and DemonGodMitch: It only applies to Vanessa and Grey.
  • You: Dante was referring to his gravity alone when he said natural laws. (proceeds to show a scan where multiple laws were interfered with.)

Your only option is to prove how one law = many laws. As far as I'm concerned nobody is arguing for one law of nature to be qualified. As for the truth, Dante confirms that Arcane Stages aren't only supernatural in their world, but they manipulate natural laws so their magic are law-based in the upper world of the BC verse.
 
Arkenis said:
Yes it doesn't matter if you can't site the other laws he's referring to.


Are you siting these as the laws? Idk, please clarify.


It is not subjectivity I'm siting how Law Manipulation works and why these examples aren't it.


Idk if you missed something here but I'm saying Dante's gravity magic affects physical things, Dante's control over gravity is physical i.e he can control it physically not control the Law itself which is what Law Manipulation would be.


Anything can be a Law in fiction so idk what you're going on about.


You're not understanding, Vanessa didn't affect the matter, she interfered with the Gravity controlling it via her fate manip so no affecting matter that is controlled by Gravity does not grant law manipulation.

If you look on Law Manipulation page Physics Manipulation is sited as a possible use and then ofc Gravity and Physics Manipulation can go hand in hand so at the base of this argument you guys are arguing for a watered down version of Law Manipulation which we wouldn't even call Law Manipulation, it'd just be it's specific thing i.e Gravity Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Physics Manipulation
Click to expand...
Phew
Ok...Yes..u don't need to state the other laws before it can be awarded
U're missing something. I'm not implying other forms of law interference should be awarded to Vannesa or Grey
It's all a limited Manipulation and Subjective interference and not one in totality
I'm implying "Arcane stages affect Natural Laws" was used as a plurality which diversified they can each affect a particular law in nature
That law doesn't need to be stated to award it when the statement is that crystal clear

And no.. Those aren't Laws in this context...they can Affect Laws

I dunno why u're Still going over this Vannesa stuff as if u're purposefully ignoring she Affected the Law of Death
That's why Dante made the statement ffs
Not cause she Affected the physicality of Dante's Gravitational Manipulation


I don't get what u meant by "anything can be a Natural Law in fiction"
 
WrongIdea21 said:
?

They already gave some input.


Fair i'll give my input in next few Hours.
Click to expand...
Yeah I should probably tag them again to respond. But let me tell you what I disagree and agree on concerning their inputs to probably save your time.

DGM second input (AP) has been applied to OP. However he gave no input on Zagred’s heart.
The first input on Law Manipulation hasn’t been added yet because he probably hasn’t seen my counter arguments yet. I’ll tag him to that. I agreed to not add Conceptual Manipulation. However I strongly disagree with the Law one.

I strongly disagree with most of Clover’s Disagreements which include Nacht’s clairvoyance (it was accepted in @speedster352’s CRT, you were there.), Time Manipulation for Megicula due to baseless claims about the Forbidden Magic curse sounding hyperbolic which is inconsistent cuz Forbidden Magic has manipulated time before by sending souls to the future, Devil Heart stuff which he promised to deal with later and hasn’t done it yet, and the Law Manipulation not applying to everyone but he ignored my counter arguments (I saw him read the thread and just left after 22 minutes, yes I was anticipating his reply) However there are some stuff I agree with, such as Conceptual Manipulation not applying to everyone, I’ll remove that from OP.

This should save you some time.
 
I’m uncertain about Zagred’s Heart, the Hearts are explicitly said to be the weak point of a Devil as long as you use enough Arcane or Saint Stage power on them
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
I’m uncertain about Zagred’s Heart, the Hearts are explicitly said to be the weak point of a Devil as long as you use enough Arcane or Saint Stage power on them
Click to expand...

Alright, so according to the scan you are probably referring to, Gaja's blast vaporized Megicula's body and it left the heart. Noelle can't see the heart but he knows Gaja wouldn't be able to destroy so she decided to muster up some saint-stage power to pierce the heart's weak point.

Noelle: I don't care if it is weak, I just need enough Saint Stage power to pierce its exposed weak point.

The "It" is referring to the devil's heart. This is supported by the fact that there is a heart panel behind Noelle's piercing attack. Noelle's plan was to pierce the Devil Heart's weak point with just enough saint-stage power to further weaken and destroy the devil's heart. The heart is not the weak point, it just has a weak point that Noelle is skilled enough to exploit, weaken and destroy via piercing damage. The heart, just like the rest of the body is just pure malice. Saint Stage's power weakens by purifying that malice. Remember when Yami referred to Zagred's entire body as a Solid form of Malice? Yeah, so that scan you were probably referring to is not a valid reason to discredit what literally happened to Zagred's heart. another reason is that Zagred's heart was faced with Arcane Stage and not Saint Stage, I already explained in the OP that arcane stage magic can't weaken a devil, it merely bypasses invulnerability due to its supernatural properties (not supernatural to us, but to them.), however, it still needs to be strong enough. Saint Stage power does not need to be strong as it weakens the devil (Remember when Vanica was losing her form to SS Noelle over the course of the battle? that was due to the purification effects).


So what are your thoughts?
 
WrongIdea21 said:
Can you explain this further?
Click to expand...

So Dante claimed that someone was manipulating natural laws then he immediately equates that to Arcane Stage

Dante: I see you've got someone who can manipulate natural laws, to think you would have an Arcane Stage beside Yami Sukehiro.

This implies that both Yami and this unknown person (Vanessa) are capable of manipulating Natural Laws. He figures out that Vanessa is the other Arcane Stage. Let us fast forward to Gauche getting healed by Grey. Dante saw the manner in which Grey healed Gauche and confirms that she is also Arcane with Yami and Vanessa

Dante: Fantastic! Who would've thought you had another Arcane Stage.

Later on, Dante reveals that he requires Arcane Stages Yami and William to link the underworld and the main world.

Nero is already an Arcane Stage and even she may be incapable of sealing Gauche's lethal damage. However, Vanessa may have not seen Nero for 6 months so she might be able to do it now. According to the Lolopechka, one of the ways of becoming Arcane Stage is by using Forbidden Magic. This makes sense because Vetto and Fana are able to perform spells that defy the world's laws of nature such as healing beyond what is conventionally possible in their world. Sending souls into the future , forcing a Great Fire Spirit Salamander to use Daimonds and Fire, and making curses impossible to break (even with Anti Magic) are just bonus mentions of what Forbidden Spells are capable of doing. Forbidden Magic can affect the shape of Life and the main world. so those who use forbidden spells are capable of manipulating natural laws because they are Arcane Stage spells.

So far we have Yami, Vanessa, Grey, Nero, Fana, Vetto, William, and anyone else revealed to be Arcane Stages can all manipulate natural laws as implied by Dante. So what do you think? I think I provided feats that support Dante's claim.

And if you agree, then should devils qualify as well? Yami's Dark Magic can affect the otherworld and the power from the other world dwells within it. Julius/Lucius has been revealed to use the Time Devil's magic. Keep in mind Julius was already considered Arcane Stage by Lolopechka. That means she indirectly referred to Astaroth's magic as Arcane. Devil spells are naturally classified under Forbidden Magic too and they are even capable of casting Forbidden Spells and Curses. This is overwhelming evidence that Devils do qualify, especially only High Ranking to Highest Ranking Devils who have actually been shown to cast Forbidden Spells outside of or relevant to their magic. But i'd like to hear what you think.
 
Last edited:
Arnoldstone18 said:
Alright, so according to the scan you are probably referring to, Gaja's blast vaporized Megicula's body and it left the heart. Noelle can't see the heart but he knows Gaja wouldn't be able to destroy so she decided to muster up some saint-stage power to pierce the heart's weak point.

Noelle: I don't care if it is weak, I just need enough Saint Stage power to pierce its exposed weak point.

The "It" is referring to the devil's heart. This is supported by the fact that there is a heart panel behind Noelle's piercing attack. Noelle's plan was to pierce the Devil Heart's weak point with just enough saint-stage power to further weaken and destroy the devil's heart. The heart is not the weak point, it just has a weak point that Noelle is skilled enough to exploit, weaken and destroy via piercing damage. The heart, just like the rest of the body is just pure malice. Saint Stage's power weakens by purifying that malice. Remember when Yami referred to Zagred's entire body as a Solid form of Malice? Yeah, so that scan you were probably referring to is not a valid reason to discredit what literally happened to Zagred's heart. another reason is that Zagred's heart was faced with Arcane Stage and not Saint Stage, I already explained in the OP that arcane stage magic can't weaken a devil, it merely bypasses invulnerability due to its supernatural properties (not supernatural to us, but to them.), however, it still needs to be strong enough. Saint Stage power does not need to be strong as it weakens the devil (Remember when Vanica was losing her form to SS Noelle over the course of the battle? that was due to the purification effects).


So what are your thoughts?
Click to expand...
Uh no, by exposed weak poinrt, she is referring to the now exposed heart…
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
Well… how?

And even if what you say is true, which is isn’t, why does Noelle calling it a weak point matter if she has SS and if she was never actually in the fight against Zagred?
Click to expand...
Cause the heart can’t defend itself on its own and Noelle believed that just a tiny dagger of Saint Stage Magic would kill it if she just landed a clean hit

Devil Heart’s aren’t far more durable than Devil’s Body’s because they can’t defend themselves at all, they aren’t like lumps of steel
 
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