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Bump
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The nature of the soul (Black clover version)
- Thread starter King_Gorilla4002-8922
- Start date
- 514
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- #42
I added one more thing in the OP as evidence that the soul is abstract
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Bump
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I read through the OP, and while I agree that the soul is the source for one's mind, abilities, and life-force. With it being directly stated so by Lucius. I don't agree with souls in the series being Type 3 Concepts.
While it's shown the soul grants them their magical abilities. It doesn't necessitate that the person's soul is also conceptual if the magic it births is conceptual, or capable of interacting with conceptual things. That's a compositional fallacy. We require further evidence that one's soul is also conceptual, such evidence would be stuff like one's soul being compared in nature to one's magical ability (as in their level of ontology, not just a general statement of soul giving birth to magic.) I haven't seen this evidence yet, at least from what the OP has provided me. So I can't agree with that part of this thread.
While it's shown the soul grants them their magical abilities. It doesn't necessitate that the person's soul is also conceptual if the magic it births is conceptual, or capable of interacting with conceptual things. That's a compositional fallacy. We require further evidence that one's soul is also conceptual, such evidence would be stuff like one's soul being compared in nature to one's magical ability (as in their level of ontology, not just a general statement of soul giving birth to magic.) I haven't seen this evidence yet, at least from what the OP has provided me. So I can't agree with that part of this thread.
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Gotta agree with Deceived on this one, I'm not really seeing how some people having conceptual magic = Conceptual souls works here.
The Soul is the reason for magic, but doesn't necessarily mean the soul itself along with magic in general being conceptual in nature. Once more I learned the hard way by assuming just because the soul is conceptual despite being balled up with the mind, body and abilities. I had upgraded Hellsing Vampires to have Type 3 CM for this very reason and rightfully it was removed because these do not fit CM standards.
The Soul is the reason for magic, but doesn't necessarily mean the soul itself along with magic in general being conceptual in nature. Once more I learned the hard way by assuming just because the soul is conceptual despite being balled up with the mind, body and abilities. I had upgraded Hellsing Vampires to have Type 3 CM for this very reason and rightfully it was removed because these do not fit CM standards.
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- #46
Maybe this could fit that description
I also found this statement by Morris, placing Lucius' magic (soul magic + blood + bones + body) as something divine
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- #47
I remember this topic, and it was in it that I got the idea that BC's soul could also be a type 3 concept, I didn't know it had been taken from Alucard
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Oh this should be simple enough.
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I remember something that said that the "soul was the true form of a person's magic" do you know which chapter it is in?
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Can't remember anything like that
who said it again?
I wanna see the response to the first two points.
There might be something in the movie about how Elsodcia taking mana and a piece of the soul as a consequence.
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I saw it on the verse page, I remembered it now
I'm going to watch the movie again to see if there's anything to help here.
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Bump
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What was it
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Problems with translation
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I assume this has been rejected? I'm not seeing any statements of The Soul being an abstract source or anything fundamental. This just seems to be relating to the Soul birthing certain types of Magic.
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Could you close this topic? I plan on doing another one with more justification in the future.
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I can request it but I myself cannot close threads.
Digital_Franz
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No. This adds nothing more
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You're not even going to ask for the context? Do you already know the verse?
I am aware that "ideas" are classified as abstractions, and that this case is also referring to the "Transcendence of the body" (which suggests that the soul is someone's archetype)
Digital_Franz
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I know the verse and I even read the chapter and in this case I can tell you it's no.
Digital_Franz
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In the chapter nothing shows abstraction. There is more emphasis on the opposing mentalities/moralities of Morris and Mereoleona and in the context it is more of a form of completion that she is talking about.
Digital_Franz
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You are misinterpreting this. Mereoleona no longer had a physical body and she spoke of the men who had just sacrificed themselves for her showing her a "shape of the human soul" referring here to a whole bunch of things but not an abstraction such as morality, mentality...
Digital_Franz
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She became like an elemental spirit that is why he wasn't able to reach her
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Yeah still not seeing anything conceptual here.
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And how would that be outside my interpretation? Mereoleona is responding to this here
Morris :THAT'S OUR TERRI- TORY...
A REALM THAT SUR- PASSES NATURAL LAW!!!
NO MERE HUMAN COULD EVER-
Mereoleona responds to Morris by saying that her companions taught her "the ideal form of the human soul", she was referring to her new ability that was outside of natural laws
Digital_Franz
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Once again what you say it is very obvious that here it does not refer literally to the form of the soul but to a kind of pride/duty.
Digital_Franz
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What does being above natural laws have to do with the soul being a concept? It means absolutely nothing.
Sonoftanavast9
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Tbh even if he isn't I don't think being "Outside or surpassing natural laws" in black clover is not substantiative evidence of anything really because the criteria for doing so is extremely loose and completely incompatable with wiki standards.
Lets look at Morris, who considers himself to have surpass natural laws by virtue of the ability granted to him by Lucious which allows him to deconstruct things and "create life" in the form of those golem things he makes with his secondary earth magic while he also considers Mereleona to also surpass natural laws herself but by virtue of being able to resurrect the souls of her deceased companions & completely convert her body to mana - non of which really means anything in the context of the wiki's categorization of concepts but still goes to show how broad what can be considered to "surpass natural laws" in black clover is making it practically meaningless
Tbh non of this actually even really has anything to do with the soul being considered a concept by the wiki standards
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That's not exactly what I meant, but I'm too sleepy to try to explain, good night
Digital_Franz
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I don't know what you want to explain but already know that in the direction you went the soul cannot be a concept. When you talk about physical transcendence a little above, did you see in the wiki standards this being a criteria for making the soul a concept? And since you talk about the ideal form of the soul it is obvious that "ideal" does not refer to an abstraction but to the best form that can exist. In short there is no evidence of abstraction in the chapter. The soul in BC is not a concept.
Digital_Franz
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I think you should try to define and understand what an "ideal" is to understand that here it has nothing to do with the "ideal" that is used in the chapter.
Digital_Franz
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Really. Even if she speaks of the "form of the soul" she speaks of the "ideal form of the soul" which has nothing to do with the "ideal" which is an abstraction. She did not say that the soul was an "ideal" so really the justification is not valid.
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