Ben 10: Crosstime Possibly Low 1-C re-justification.

[Reiner04]

Once Vilgax deletes time it's an Immeasurable speed reaction. It retroactively applies and destroys everything else. When they reboot the timeline it also sets a timelimit on when Vilgax will kill all the other Bens. A second time axis isn't needed for any of this, as its temporal manipulation in the first place.

It's why when NWB reverses the bomb you see the effects in real time. Because it's time manipulation where Ben is undoing Vilgax's time manipulation.

Timebomb destroys everything retroactively, there can't be any time limit over pre decided thing that has happened already in the timeline. It's same as saying "Vilgax has destroyed all of Multiverse" but before that there is time when everything was still fine and can be travelled back to, that's literally what paradox doing. There is vilgax continuum in the same continuum in which ben prime got the Omnitrix. Both co-existing with each other. So idg what time limit is there if there is continuum where vilgax has already won. How both is co-existing? The very point of co-existence of two versions of multiverse under some continuum is red flag.

 

[Qawsedf234]

destroys everything retroactively, there can't be any time limit over pre decided thing that has happened already in the timeline. It's same as saying "Vilgax has destroyed all of Multiverse" but before that there is time when everything was still fine and can be travelled back to, that's literally what paradox doing

No, Paradox is traveling to the remaining trunk of the multiverse connected to NWB and rebooting the timestream. But by doing so Vilgax's plan is also rebooted and has to be stopped.

How both is co-existing?

Because NWB with an Omnitrix still existed with NWB without an Omnitrix. It's why Paradox banned him from going to his universe until he got pulled out, as if there were two different versions of the same Ben at once his universe would suffer consequences according to Paradox.

Two different time axis aren't needed for any of this, everything that happened in these episodes is just a complex array of time travel shenanigans.

 

[Reiner04]

Because NWB with an Omnitrix still existed with NWB without an

No, I'm not talking about that version of timestream, what I'm talking about the new version, which as per you is just another branch which itself has vilgax continuum predecided and has happened since ben 10 timeline just work like that, future already exist, there's no flow of events happening but that future can be travelled to. So vilgax continuum existing for any timeline reboot should not be the case unless that continuum itself is higher continuum that sustaining different versions of timestream across higher time. Such that any change in past still follows that continuum.

There's no plan B, if vilgax won then all is lost for the multiverse.

Yeah, Vilgax has already won at some point in Crosstime is predecided and known very well, so having past itself means it's a previous version of timestream itself rather than regular past of it.

 

[Reiner04]

It also not follows how ben 10 time travel works infact where any change in past affects future of that timeline must.

Gwen changed history affected her future, ben changing history of extradimensional creature affected future, Eon travelling to past of Ben 10000 resulted in Ben 10000 already knowing what is going to happen in past (but had forgotten since been too long).

So it should always follows the continuum of NW ben timeline and only affect it in the future and repeat itself due to vilgax continuum rather than creating another branch which gonna result in same thing. This is supporting mechanism of the verse. New branch mechanism due to timetravel has never happened and neither it was stated that they are creating some other branch other than NW one. It was all a continuum and changes must have happened in some other timestream/timeline before vilgax destroyed it all, aka higher continuum, that's the only way that NW timeline was unaffected while still coexisting with past version of it.

In short, changes in the past of particular timeline has always affected the future of that timeline no matter what. So it rather should end up NW ben getting the Omnitrix in the future, or as per your theory, repeat the same thing that happened in NW future as in nothing is changed in the past but it's all that paradox and NW ben did is a part of Crosstime since beginning and that's basically how ben got Omnitrix to begin with, no new branch is being formed but higher continuum is just that.

 

[Greenshifter]

NW Ben and Paradox have to go back to the root of the tree caused by all the branches to correct this deletion.

The "root" in this case is a point in time which is after No Watch Ben's timeline branched away from the Prime timeline. Hence why retroactive branching exists.

 

[Reiner04]

This all, regardless if you go with time travel branching mechanism (which never was established in the show), or that affecting past affects future and don't affect in case that timetravel itself is a part of history. Vilgax continuum will always co-exist with past version of timestreams since in Ben 10, predecided future exist.

Making it clear that continuum is higher continuum. There's no way that same thing exist and don't under same coordinates of the space. They must have to be displaced at higher coordinates. I can't come to convince myself that this is not the case, i really can't regardless what I do, unless I lie to myself and just force myself to think it's true.

 

[Greenshifter]

It's easily possible that in this timeline Vilgax just nuked the Omnitrix on accident and it was permanently lost.

Do you think Prime Vilgax would take the chance of someone bringing it back? The Omnitrix has High regen and his entire plan relied on there being no Omnitrix wielders left to stop him.

 

[Reiner04]

Omnitrix can regenerate itself unless it's destroyed on sub quantum level (basically EE in the verse). Yeah.

 

[Reiner04]

No, Paradox is traveling to the remaining trunk of the multiverse connected to NWB and rebooting the timestream. But by doing so Vilgax's plan is also rebooted and has to be stopped.


Because NWB with an Omnitrix still existed with NWB without an Omnitrix. It's why Paradox banned him from going to his universe until he got pulled out, as if there were two different versions of the same Ben at once his universe would suffer consequences according to Paradox.

Two different time axis aren't needed for any of this, everything that happened in these episodes is just a complex array of time travel shenanigans.

Can I create a new thread and you can give that a re-check after that? Since the new information and many arguments that brought up are not in the OP, along with stuff like change in past of particular timeline always affects it's future rather than creating new timeline, unless ofcourse, the change in past itself is a past, like Eon interfering with the past of Ben 10000 doesn't change anything about Ben 10000 since it was part of his history itself but on the other hand, Gwen changing past changes her future, same with Ben changing past of paradox and extradimensional creature.

Also to mention about new information is that future interference has been part of Ben 10 timeline since beginning, that's the reason maltruant is under timeloop, so timetravel doesn't have to be something that is done to change smth but rather, sometimes, part of timeline itself. It causing a branching rather than changing future never really happened.

 

[Greenshifter]

I don't think Reiner's arguments matter too much at this point (the whole No Watch Ben's future changing stuff), so here are my arguments:

It's easily possible that in this timeline Vilgax just nuked the Omnitrix on accident and it was permanently lost.

Eon says that No Watch Ben's timeline doesn't have an Omnitrix, not just the present moment:

Eon: Yours is the only
timeline without an Omnitrix,

which makes it an unpredictable
wild card.

Vilgax: And in my future,
there is no room for wild cards.

When Paradox talks about alternate timelines existing he'll always mention the point where said timelines branch from the Prime timeline:

"Paradox: As Gwen guessed, cross-time is made up of parallel versions of the history we know. There are hundreds of them... a world where Gwen found the Omnitrix, a world where albedo turned to alien x and was trapped motionless for nearly a year, a world where you didn't have to destroy the Omnitrix to defeat Vilgax. Ben 10K: Et cetera. Paradox: Ad infinitum."

Meaning that the following statement:

Amazing- a universe without an Omnitrix. It boggles the mind.

should refer to the point where No Watch Ben's timeline branched from Ben Prime's timeline, meaning said timeline never had an Omnitrix.

Lastly if the Omnitrix did exist in the past of the No Watch Ben timeline at one point, it would have been pretty easy for someone to get this Omnitrix and give it to No Watch Ben or Max. Even without accounting for Paradox, there exists tech which allows time travel (yes these comics are accepted as canon) as well as spells for it. Making Vilgax's plan very flawed, which it shouldn't be.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

I watched the episodes again but contrary to what you say, I see no reason for low1c.
Disaggre

I'm tired of seeing a new low1c ben 10 upgrade every week.

 

[Reiner04]

I don't think Reiner's arguments matter too much at this point (the whole No Watch Ben's future changing stuff), so here are my arguments:

Eon says that No Watch Ben's timeline doesn't have an Omnitrix, not just the present moment:

Eon: Yours is the only
timeline without an Omnitrix,

which makes it an unpredictable
wild card.

Vilgax: And in my future,
there is no room for wild cards.

When Paradox talks about alternate timelines existing he'll always mention the point where said timelines branch from the Prime timeline:

"Paradox: As Gwen guessed, cross-time is made up of parallel versions of the history we know. There are hundreds of them... a world where Gwen found the Omnitrix, a world where albedo turned to alien x and was trapped motionless for nearly a year, a world where you didn't have to destroy the Omnitrix to defeat Vilgax. Ben 10K: Et cetera. Paradox: Ad infinitum."

Meaning that the following statement:

Amazing- a universe without an Omnitrix. It boggles the mind.

should refer to the point where No Watch Ben's timeline branched from Ben Prime's timeline, meaning said timeline never had an Omnitrix.

Lastly if the Omnitrix did exist in the past of the No Watch Ben timeline at one point, it would have been pretty easy for someone to get this Omnitrix and give it to No Watch Ben or Max. Even without accounting for Paradox, there exists tech which allows time travel (yes these comics are accepted as canon) as well as spells for it. Making Vilgax's plan very flawed, which it shouldn't be.

Do your ass knows i almost wrote exact thing but didn't posted?

 

[Greenshifter]

I'm tired of seeing a new low1c ben 10 upgrade every week.

Skill issue on Reiner's part I'm afraid

Do your ass knows i almost wrote exact thing but didn't posted?

See, skill issue

 

[Reiner04]

Skill issue on Reiner's part I'm afraid

I wasn't even around and all threadz I ever posted got accepted in no time, this thread itself is having skill issue.

See, skill issue

What should I even post when regardless of any argument, Vilgax continuum existing itself is a red flag. Posting that just means to adore one argument when whether that argument is true or false (it's false) gives the same result.

 

[Greenshifter]

this thread itself is having skill issue.

Maybe because I appeared

What should I even post when regardless of any argument, Vilgax continuum existing itself is a red flag. Posting that just meant to adore one argument when whether that argument is true or false (it's false) gives the same result.

Tbf I can kind of see it, due to the loop shit. Us/the opposition needing a second temporal dimension to explain the events is different from a character actually using said temporal dimension in-verse. No Watch Ben would basically be getting replaced with a different version of himself when he gives his past self the Omnitrix. Under Qawsedf's interpretation that is.

 

[Reiner04]

Tbf I can kind of see it, due to the loop shit. No Watch Ben would basically be getting replaced with a different version of himself when he gives his past self the Omnitrix. Under Qawsedf's interpretation that is.

All that just for co-existing with Vilgax continuum no? no matter what NW ben do in past, it'll just leads to vilgax continuum in the future? All of Ben Crosstime is predecided to that point and thus exist. How can a Vilgax continuum exist at all when the past version of timestream have all timelines intact? Let's i go with that interpretation but again, doesn't that just again leads to same thing? That vilgax continuum exist and predecided, even after paradox interference. All of Timeline exist already, so vilgax continuum existing will cause duality of timestream. Unless, displaced over higher coordinates. So I see same results from any interpretation.

 

[Greenshifter]

All of Timeline exist already, so vilgax continuum existing will cause duality of timestream. Unless, displaced over higher coordinates.

If Qawsedf is right, we might need to downgrade Clockwork.

 

[Reiner04]

We might need to downgrade Clockwork.

Fr, but Sorry bro only Alien X matters

 

[Greenshifter]

It has come to my attention that the Bens gather in the leaf which has fallen from the tree at one point. Which means the multiverse is both destroyed and not destroyed at the same time. Which just can't happen without a hypertimeline. Guess Reiner was onto something

 

[Reiner04]

It has come to my attention that the Bens gather in the leaf which has fallen from the tree at one point. Which means the multiverse is both destroyed and not destroyed at the same time. Which just can't happen without a hypertimeline. Guess Reiner was onto something

Okay I want to use some curses at the moment and mmmmmm... Yeah I'll wait until u return to discord.

I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS SINCE BEGINNING AND U JUST NOTICED IT.

Nvm.

 

[Shadow-Ragna]

I am on disagree since from the points I am seeing the whole argument here seems...dunno kinda iffy. Since the whole idea of what Vilgax's plan is contradicted by what the lore and what is happening in the episodes.

NW Ben and Paradox went to the Prime Ben's timeline in the beginning and got P!Ben (Prime Ben) to gain the Omnitrix and restarted the timelines, which makes me honestly question if Vilgax DID erase every single universe that has the Omnitrix, then why did or rather HOW did Paradox and NW Ben traveled to Prime Universe Ben?

I am sorry if I am being a dumbass but I really feel like Ben 10 Time Travel is a damn mess.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Eon says that No Watch Ben's timeline doesn't have an Omnitrix, not just the present moment

I still feel that destroying it outright would do the same. Since there's a good possibility that no one else can replicate it.

It has come to my attention that the Bens gather in the leaf which has fallen from the tree at one point. Which means the multiverse is both destroyed and not destroyed at the same time. Which just can't happen without a hypertimeline

Maybe, though it can also just mean they're in a void without time/space which wouldn't require a second temporal axis. Which is what I take from Paradox

Paradox: No need to ask where we are. This is not a place, so it's not a question I can answer. If you think of time and space as a tree with branches...
No Watch Ben: Not again.
Paradox: ...then you and I are on a leaf that has fallen from it. Only there is no longer any tree.

Which implies they're adjacent/outside of time at that particular moment.

 

[Deagonx]

Qawsedf makes sense to me here, so I am a disagree.

 

[Reiner04]

NW Ben and Paradox went to the Prime Ben's timeline in the beginning and got P!Ben (Prime Ben) to gain the Omnitrix and restarted the timelines, which makes me honestly question if Vilgax DID erase every single universe that has the Omnitrix, then why did or rather HOW did Paradox and NW Ben traveled to Prime Universe Ben?

It's fine. The only way possible is to have past version before vilgax destroyed it all. Which is one interpretation I'm using but guess it's just rejected by now.

The other interpretation is that paradox changed things in NW ben timeline to make it similar to Ben prime timeline and so branching happened. I'm against it since vilgax continuum is predecided even at this moment and exist (as that's what continuum means). But it is generally agreed upon here. So..

 

[Reiner04]

Maybe, though it can also just mean they're in a void without time/space

Just correction, Paradox can't go outside of Crosstime, it's written even on cosmology page and I've also said it before.

 

[Reiner04]

Maybe, though it can also just mean they're in a void without time/space which wouldn't require a second temporal axis. Which is what I take from Paradox

Can we simply go with possibly rating? For Hypertimeline existence itself since idt that regardless of any pov, it's existence is smth that doesn't have peace of arguments or evidences to stand on. It seems to me to just having different interpretations of texts at best.

 

[Greenshifter]

then why did or rather HOW did Paradox and NW Ben traveled to Prime Universe Ben?

That's why we need a hypertimeline, which means you're actually agreeing if you're pondering that question.

 

[Greenshifter]

I still feel that destroying it outright would do the same. Since there's a good possibility that no one else can replicate it.

Azmuth? Time travel? And like it doesn't matter if it would do the same thing, Eon specifically says timeline. Also as said before, destroying the watch is incredibly difficult, to the point Servantis had to whip out special equipment which destroys it on a sub-quantum level to get rid of it + the OS Omnitrix is merely a prototype, so 2 versions of the watch would need to be destroyed.

Maybe, though it can also just mean they're in a void without time/space which wouldn't require a second temporal axis. Which is what I take from Paradox

That "place" which isn't a place only exists because of the tree getting cut down though, it should still be subject to causality.

 

[Reiner04]

Can we simply go with possibly rating? For Hypertimeline existence itself since idt that regardless of any pov, it's existence is smth that doesn't have peace of arguments or evidences to stand on. It seems to me to just having different interpretations of texts at best.

Anyway @Qawsedf234?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Anyway ?

Well

Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly.

I guess not against it. But I think 2-A is generally a better fit.

 

[Forthegood]

What I am interpreting from what Qawsedf234 is saying is that they traveled too a timeline before Ben gets his fate intertwined with the omnitrix right(Which is the root)?If I am interpreting this correctly wouldn't everything that is happening still prove to be impossible?

Like this for example lets say we have 4 timestamps 14:00, 14:01, 14:02 and 14:03. Ben gets his fate intertwined with the omntrix in timestamp 14:01 - 14:02 (which is the event when the omnitrix crashes on earth, ben finds it and whatever) and in timestamp 14:00 is the timestamp before he gets the omnitrix(what we see in the show where they[NW Ben and Paradox] appear inside Vilgax ship) and Timestamp 14:03 is the end of this event. The CTB erases Ben Prime across all the timelines(except NW Ben) wouldn't that mean that Bens existence wouldn't be present in timestamp 14:01 and 14:02? Since Ben Prime was erased which would mean timestamp 14:01, 14:02 and 14:03 has a massive center piece that is missing?

 

[Reiner04]

Well

I guess not against it. But I think 2-A is generally a better fit.

I can really say that I really think that it being Hypertimeline makes most sense. Not that there's any point in arguing it but let's say even if it's only personal opinion of mine and maybe wrong. But I'm considering both arguments equally but reach the same conclusion. I was in the middle abit doubted myself and was about to close it but after rethinking yesterday, i just got a personal resolve. But I think maybe i wasn't right since I necessarily may have different ways to judge things. I may will just ponder it over again to see if there is smth wrong with my sense of judgement.

Anyway, I'm fine with that either way.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Forthegood Paradox and Ben's shenanigans at 14:00 arguably cause 14:01 to exist in said interpretation.

 

[Reiner04]

I guess not against it. But I think 2-A is generally a better fit.

I'm actually pretty divided; I don't consider myself an expert on Tier 1 stuff. But at the same time, I can see points on either side.

Qawsed is fine with possibly Low 1-C, can you give your opinion on it too?

 

[Reiner04]

Day after tomorrow is the day my holidays will over, so i request if this thread can be over soon (not saying that it's anyone problems and maybe sounding impatience but I really can't help it... I'm sorry about that)

 

[Forthegood]

@Forthegood Paradox and Ben's shenanigans at 14:00 arguably cause 14:01 to exist in said interpretation.

So basically it wouldn't matter so whatever they are doing in timestamp 14:00 would still give birth to timestamp 14:01?

 

[Qawsedf234]

wouldn't that mean that Bens existence wouldn't be present in timestamp 14:01 and 14:02? Since Ben Prime was erased which would mean timestamp 14:01, 14:02 and 14:03 has a massive center piece that is missing?

I think you're confusing Ben Prime with alternative Bens. Vilgax's bomb is retroactive, meaning every alternate version of Ben Prime has already been completely deleted. Unless NWB interacts with the timeline and causes a change, the timeline is determinate and forced to only be NWB. So in this case 14:01-14:03 are all only NWB as that is the only direction the timeline can go.

Once NWB gets the Omnitrix to Ben Prime, the timeline reboots itself and becomes as it was pre-bomb, with all the variations of Ben. Which is why right after NWB and Paradox explore the multiverse.

 

[Forthegood]

I also agree with the Possible Low 1C rating if Qawsedf234 is fine with it.

 

[Greenshifter]

So basically it wouldn't matter so whatever they are doing in timestamp 14:00 would still give birth to timestamp 14:01?

Yeah, “there are no cosmic push buttons, only cause and effect”

 

[Greenshifter]

Clockwork can keep his current rating btw, despite him only needing to reverse time on a planetary scale under Qawsedf’s interpretation (if I got it right), he still pulled the ripple of the time bomb back in, which went across the multiverse.