Ben 10: Crosstime Possibly Low 1-C re-justification.

[DonkeySlayer06]

Man. A reply it is? To everything comment possible? Okay

A tree has been cut down and only one branch exist, site your source to prove all of multiverse still exist.

If all of timelines has been destroyed to the point even Eon couldn't defend himself, then how they travelled to unaltered primetime? Ben 23? Gwen 10? And in the future ben 10000? They were destroyed so it's impossible. Unless they travelled to independent tree itself which follows the show quotes.

What you're citing is not just unsupported but directly contradicts the show.

So how did No Watch Ben survive if the entire tree was cut down? Although Paradox has the ability to go to the past, scenes were shown where he still does not have the ability to go to certain points in time. There will definitely be a time when Eon has the same ability as Paradox and it is not possible for him to leave. This, of course, makes it possible for him to not be able to go back to the timeline before he got the Omnitrix in the original timeline. Also, even if there are 2 Trees, I don't see any reason why the time period in that tree should be a different axis. Ultimately, after No Watch Ben and Paradox fixed everything, Prime Ben congratulated No Watch Ben on his actions. If it had occurred in a different timeline, how would Prime Ben have known about the previous events? When all the alternate Ben 10s returned, they all remembered what happened.

 

[Reiner04]

So how did No Watch Ben survive if the entire tree was cut down? Although Paradox has the ability to go to the past, scenes were shown where he still does not have the ability to go to certain points in time. There will definitely be a time when Eon has the same ability as Paradox and it is not possible for him to leave. This, of course, makes it possible for him to not be able to go back to the timeline before he got the Omnitrix in the original timeline. Also, even if there are 2 Trees, I don't see any reason why the time period in that tree should be a different axis. Ultimately, after No Watch Ben and Paradox fixed everything, Prime Ben congratulated No Watch Ben on his actions. If it had occurred in a different timeline, how would Prime Ben have known about the previous events? When all the alternate Ben 10s returned, they all remembered what happened.

This post is so much filled with might, may, possibly, could be. I don't know what to say to all of that.

About 2 trees, there were never stated that there are only 2 trees, they just simply went to past version of whole of tree across Crosstime. And that's enough. Since it proves timestream is subject to its own different flow.

 

[Greenshifter]

I find the counter arguments more persuasive here.

No Watch Ben having an Omnitrix in his timeline is more persuasive?

 

[DonkeySlayer06]

This post is so much filled with might, may, possibly, could be. I don't know what to say to all of that.

About 2 trees, there were never stated that there are only 2 trees, they just simply went to past version of whole of tree across Crosstime. And that's enough. Since it proves timestream is subject to its own different flow.

Sorry I still haven't changed my mind. No Watch Ben's life after the explosion of the CTB is the biggest problem, and I don't see enough context for this timeline to have a different axis. I also thank you for your hard work and effort.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm thinking Firestorm and Qawsed make sense here and thus I can be put on agree by the looks of it.

 

[Reiner04]

No Watch Ben having an Omnitrix in his timeline and Gwen 10 branching after Ben gets the Omnitrix is more persuasive?

Idk bro, me not replying and resting seems like PPL thinking someone is running away. When I'm just dead bored of the counter arguments I've made myself against me when I was thinking of the events of 2 episodes.

It's not about what i think happened, it's not about what anyone else think, it's about what is giving logically most correct answer dissolving any contradiction to nothingness and gives of essence of this episodes story. And that's what I did. If it was that easy to give the counter arguments then this thread wouldn't have existed. Since anything except this one, will have contradiction. One just have to sit and think carefully. Not about scaling but the story itself. Since whole thinking of scaling we all went off our ways to force our view over another, disregarding what suits best.

 

[Benimōru]

First of all, I would like this to be the last comment from both of us, because we have found exactly where we disagree and there is no need to continue. So I think we should leave the rest to the staff.

Primetimeline do not longer exist yeah we agree on that part, but they went to beginning of Ben primetimelime as per Quotes no? Then they went to several other points in Crosstime and meets different versions of ben, no? Vilgax has already won tho and everything has been destroyed unless clockwork fixes everything no? Isn't it's obvious what's happening here? They're literally travelling to the timestream that still is fine unlike CTB affected Timestream that has been nuked to oblivion.

No, no, no. They didn't go to the first timeline. They went back before that timelines branched out, before Ben Prime reached the Omnitrix.

Here's what I think you're missing. After Paradox reboots the Prime timeline with NW Ben, after he delivers the Omnitrix to Ben, Paradox tells him that this is why they also rebooted the Vilgax timelines. And this point is exactly where the timelines of those two began. Ben getting the Omnitrix and Vilgax losing the Omnitrix. I think what I misrepresented above is that this is the point where the timelines for both Vilgax and Ben start to "branch". And where these two are going is not another multiverse, as I mentioned in the previous message, but the past of the tree that was destroyed in the present, before it started to branch out. CTB just erases these branches and the Prime timeline from the "present" time of what you call cross-time, but there is still this tree in the past of this cross-time. And you don't need an extra axis to go back to that past. Because this is not a situation that requires a different axis. They still go to a regular past.

That's what I'm getting at, there are different versions of timestream itself and rather it sounds my own made up or one sees from episodes. It's given that there's past version of whole of timestream and future versions of it, in the middle, tree was chopped off.

There are no different versions of this tree. The tree just has a past, present and future. And these in cross-time still contain the same axis of past and future as trees. This is exactly the " doesn't count" option in QAW's diagram.

Qawsed make sense here

If you're saying he traveled to an adjacent timeline that was only the Prime Ben universe and then it splintered I can sorts see it, but what I've been told it sounds like the FAQ examples of stuff that wouldn't count.

QAWSEDF doesn't even agree with the OP?

 

[Reiner04]

QAWSEDF doesn't even agree with the OP?

Qawsedf misunderstood green's comment which he clarified later on and then he commented about travelling to adjacent timestream counts and he can see that. What he was told was clarified.

From what you told me he went back to the Prime Ben branch, and then from there splintered out to get other Bens. Which is why I posted the other stuff.

If you're saying he traveled to an adjacent timeline that was only the Prime Ben universe and then it splintered I can sorts see it, but what I've been told it sounds like the FAQ examples of stuff that wouldn't count.

 

[Greenshifter]

Paradox deduces that Ben Prime’s universe doesn’t have an Omnitrix. This means that what we see later on in the next episode can’t be the past of the remaining timeline. Hence Hypertimeline. Simple.

 

[DonkeySlayer06]

First of all, I would like this to be the last comment from both of us, because we have found exactly where we disagree and there is no need to continue. So I think we should leave the rest to the staff.

No, no, no. They didn't go to the first timeline. They went back before that timelines branched out, before Ben Prime reached the Omnitrix.

Here's what I think you're missing. After Paradox reboots the Prime timeline with NW Ben, after he delivers the Omnitrix to Ben, Paradox tells him that this is why they also rebooted the Vilgax timelines. And this point is exactly where the timelines of those two began. Ben getting the Omnitrix and Vilgax losing the Omnitrix. I think what I misrepresented above is that this is the point where the timelines for both Vilgax and Ben start to "branch". And where these two are going is not another multiverse, as I mentioned in the previous message, but the past of the tree that was destroyed in the present, before it started to branch out. CTB just erases these branches and the Prime timeline from the "present" time of what you call cross-time, but there is still this tree in the past of this cross-time. And you don't need an extra axis to go back to that past. Because this is not a situation that requires a different axis. They still go to a regular past.

There are no different versions of this tree. The tree just has a past, present and future. And these in cross-time still contain the same axis of past and future as trees. This is exactly the " doesn't count" option in QAW's diagram.

It couldn't have been explained better. I totally agree with what you said.

 

[Firestorm808]

The fact that there is a "history" to the changes to the multiverse, means there is a higher time causality outside the standard timelines.

 

[Greenshifter]

After thinking about it, the opposition would need to assert that the CTB doesn’t actually destroy all other timelines than No Watch Ben’s in order to make any sense as the root of the Ben 10 tree would still qualify as another timeline.

 

[Reiner04]

After thinking about it, the opposition would need to assert that the CTB doesn’t actually destroy all other timelines than No Watch Ben’s in order to make any sense as the root of the Ben 10 tree would still qualify as another timeline.

That's what I have been saying. Opposition is just ending up at contradiction of giving timestream duality of having all branches and no branches except NW one at the same time. Root cause I'm this confident, I've thought of all of it and still reaches the same conclusion.

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Qawsedf234 Can you clarify your position when you get the chance?

Overall I think it's more example 1 than example 2. This seems like time travel to an original branch and going from there rather than timetravel to a parallel unbranched timeline.

So disagree.

 

[Reiner04]

Overall I think it's more example 1 than example 2. This seems like time travel to an original branch and going from there rather than timetravel to a parallel unbranched timeline.

So disagree.

It leads to a contradiction tho as green, I and firestorm has been saying.

After thinking about it, the opposition would need to assert that the CTB doesn’t actually destroy all other timelines than No Watch Ben’s in order to make any sense as the root of the Ben 10 tree would still qualify as another timeline.

Statement of the show directly:

1- all of tree has been destroyed except NW one. As per paradox own statement.
2- All of timelines except NW one has been destroyed as per vilgax.

So primetime and another branches has cease to exist for this timestream. Then events of other timestreams follows across Crosstime while it not affecting CTB version of timestream at all. If 1 was the case then that would mean timestream is in duality of existence and non Existence at the same time and both are same thing. also would not explain why Eon died.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Statement of the show directly:

Other branches existing isn't evidence for infinite 4D snapshots. Which is why I posted the FAQ lines. From what I can see it's just timetravel that then rebranded outwards, which I'd just higher 2A without being Low 1C.

 

[Arceus0x]

Neutral

 

[Reiner04]

Other branches existing isn't evidence for infinite 4D snapshots. Which is why I posted the FAQ lines. From what I can see it's just timetravel that then rebranded outwards, which I'd just higher 2A without being Low 1C.

They are not other branches Qawsed, there aren't any infact. All of tree, in the show, tree is referred for timestream itself has been destroyed and only one is left. How come they can travel to primetime that doesn't exist in the first place.

To be more clear, then travelling to branches is direct contradiction of CTB event whose sole purpose was to destroy everything except new watch ben timeline.
Let's make it more visualise:

Let's say there are 2 timestreams
1st in which only one timeline must exist.

2nd in which all of them exist.

Opposition argument falls apart since it'll cause 1st = 2nd. Both are same? No.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Let's say there are 2 timestreams
1st in which only one timeline must exist.

2nd in which all of them exist.

Or, there used to be all and they were deleted, then when Paradox traveled backwards a new snapshot was formed. Which is what the FAQ says isn't a Low 1-C feat. Or at least I'm not seeing it as more than a higher than average 2A feat.

 

[Reiner04]

Or, there used to be all and they were deleted, then when Paradox traveled backwards a new snapshot was formed. Which is what the FAQ says isn't a Low 1-C feat. Or at least I'm not seeing it as more than a higher than average 2A feat.

No since what you're describing as smth that is going to happen by paradox to create a new divergence from which one with all timestream's and one with no watch ben only will exist (we don't know if it leads to divergence but let's assume) then it has already happened and left with something, nothing but no watch ben timeline. It's kinda messed up but all that had already happened. If divergent was there or going to be there than event still follows vilgax continuum which will eventuality destroys all. Means it leads to same thing, nothing was left. Ben's team was defeated already that's why clockwork rebooted everything. Tree didn't existed despite paradox Crosstime travel as per show. As i said, he Crosstime travelled, travelled, travelled and kept doing it. As it was part of the Crosstime. But only clockwork saved everything.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I suppose I am not sure then and retract my vote for now, but Qawsed seems to make some points and looks like he doesn't agree even though his name was on the agree section when I posted.

 

[Qawsedf234]

No since what you're describing as smth that is going to happen by paradox to create a new divergence from which one with all timestream's and one with no watch ben only will exist

From what I can see

Think of time and space as this tree. Down here is when you were 10 years old. Right here is now. Up here is when you'll be 30 years old. The trunk is the main timeline. These branches represent alternate timelines, where reality literally branches off and becomes a different timeline, each containing its own Ben Tennyson.

Only this timeline will be left intact, while all others will cease to exist, so every Ben Tennyson not from this timeline will be destroyed.

What I had planned to do all along. The moment I discovered your universe, I knew I had found the means to rid the multiverse of any Ben Tennyson who had ever even heard of the Omnitrix. Now you are the only Ben left, and you're no threat to me.

We are now near the beginning of the of the Ben Prime timeline- the trunk of the Ben Tennyson tree from which all other Ben realities diverge.

Finally

Paradox: While you were successful in rebooting the Ben Prime timeline, that also reset the Vilgax continuum.

No Watch Ben: As well as the alien creep's master plan to wipe all of me out. What do I need to do?

Paradox: Protect and gather the good yous needed for the ultimate battle with Eon and the bad yous.

This just outright isn't a Low 1-C feat. This is purely 2-A.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I suppose I am not sure then and retract my vote for now, but Qawsed seems to make some points and looks like he doesn't agree even though his name was on the agree section when I posted.

I said I could see their point if they were correct, but I didn't say they were correct. If you see my above comment I'm honestly not seeing this as two separate timelines. This is Paradox and NWB just going to the start of the multiverse and causing it to split again.

 

[Reiner04]

Snip

Think of time and space as this tree. Down here is when you were 10 years old. Right here is now. Up here is when you'll be 30 years old. The trunk is the main timeline. These branches represent alternate timelines, where reality literally branches off and becomes a different timeline, each containing its own Ben Tennyson.

Yeah, this tree was reduced to no-watch ben timeline and all other were destroyed.

"Only there is no longer any tree. Vilgax chopped it down."

And as we know.

Paradox: While you were successful in rebooting the Ben Prime timeline, that also reset the Vilgax continuum.

It's all just same thing. Ben got his Omnitrix- CTB events - Omnitrix - CTB events.

All of it leads to 2 timestreams and there must be one where there is none. As per your divergence theory, there will always be a new branch diverging means CTB events didn't destroyed all.

It's impossible for past that haves effect on whole of timeline destruction to bring any change in the first place. CTB is set event so there shouldn't be any branching unless whole of multiverse changes itself following a higher order causality, beyond regular time, which brings additional time axis, Crosstime.
It'll lead to same thing.
ig this is last thing I've to say now.

 

[Qawsedf234]

All of it leads to 2 timestreams and there must be one where there is none. As per your divergence theory, there will always be a new branch diverging means CTB events didn't destroyed all.

No. Vilgax reduced the multiverse to one branch. Paradox and NWB then went back in time and restarted the multiverse by giving the Omnitrix back to Prime Ben and causing the split.

It's just by doing so they sent the same events as the previous episode to happen over again and NWB had to undo the effects of the Chrono-Bomb through a special amp.

It's impossible for past that haves effect on whole of timeline destruction to bring any change in the first place. CTB is set event so there shouldn't be any branching unless whole of multiverse itself following a higher order causality, which brings additional timeline, Crosstime.

It doesn't. The branches were cut off and then restored.

 

[Reiner04]

No. Vilgax reduced the multiverse to one branch. Paradox and NWB then went back in time and restarted the multiverse by giving the Omnitrix back to Prime Ben and causing the split.

It's just by doing so they sent the same events as the previous episode to happen over again and NWB had to undo the effects of the Chrono-Bomb through a special amp

Tbh, all this is just ending at CTB. 1st ep, 2nd were all happening at the same time, proving it won't have any effect over CTB.

Clockwork restored the multiverse, if what you're saying taken true then there are infinite numbers of primetimeline... And there are infinite amount of same kind of timeline w/o any alterations since divergence will keep happening? And all of that has already happened to be destroyed.

It's just a resolution that there aren't infinite prime timelines and infinite numbers of their same divergence. Also that infinite amount of No watch ben timeline? Impossible since there is only one.

 

[Reiner04]

Uh also that if new divergence theory taken then CTB affected previous timeline will itself be chopped off by new divergence. So ben never had to return where he did.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Clockwork restored the multiverse, if what you're saying taken true then there are infinite numbers of primetimeline

No it isn't, the show explained what happened

Clockwork: Hey! Whoa! Who's this?
Ben 10,000: Clockwork. He's got time powers. Speed up, slow down, forward, back.
Paradox: Because Eon is another version of Ben, he may sense the resulting Sotobro effect.
Ben 23: "Sotobro effect"?
Ben 10,000: A sort of ripple in the timestream that Clockwork causes when he uses his powers.
Clockwork: Then we'd better not risk it.

Let me guess- Chronosapien Time Bomb? Paradox was right. Once I transformed, I could see the Sotobro effect. Just figured I'd suck the ripple back in.

He just reversed the time damage the bomb made.

It's just a resolution that there aren't infinite prime timelines and infinite numbers of their same divergence. Also that infinite amount of No watch ben timeline? Impossible since there is only one.

NWB went outside of time. Meaning it became a recursive loop afterwards.

The more I've looked into it the more I'm against a Low 1-C rating. This is just a 2A feat in my view.

 

[Reiner04]

He just reversed the time damage the bomb made

It absorbed the effects of CtB but it didn't mean it never happened. The Crosstime travel will still lead CTB effects and going with divergence theory will still create infinite numbers of NW ben and primetimes. Which contradicts existence of mere one NW Ben in the multiverse with far margin.

 

[Forthegood]

No. Vilgax reduced the multiverse to one branch. Paradox and NWB then went back in time and restarted the multiverse by giving the Omnitrix back to Prime Ben and causing the split.

The part of going back in time shouldn't that be impossible since Ben Prime timeline no longer exists(wouldnt the destruction of his timeline account also for his past[when he was 10] present[when he is 16] and future[when he is 36])? According to Paradox he says that NW Ben must imagine that the part of the tree around the area near to the surface of the tree is when Ben was 10, in the middle part of the tree is when he is his current age, 16 and the upper part is where he is 36 or 30 something. And later on after the events of the CTB he states that the whole tree was destroyed except of course the one of NW Ben.
What I understand from your comment is that they went back in time where Prime Ben gets the omnitrix and then make sure he gets it, then because of that it causes the split? What do you mean by that? Do you mean that the Timelines start to branch off again?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Neutral

There should be a rule that if anyone posts Coffin of Andy and Leyley edits they should be banned on sight.

 

[Arceus0x]

There should be a rule that if anyone posts Coffin of Andy and Leyley edits they should be banned on sight.

L take

 

[Firestorm808]

@Qawsedf234

Doesn't the higher causality of all timelines getting destroyed, restored, destroyed again, and restored again exist independently of the "time" inside the standard timelines?

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Neutral

 

[Lovemovies14]

Agree with Low 1-C

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Qawsedf234

Doesn't the higher causality of all timelines getting destroyed, restored, destroyed again, and restored again exist independently of the "time" inside the standard timelines?

Not in in view, since everything I mentioned already fits in with the FAQ note about snapshot timelines. In fact your example given almost word for word follows that example

However, caution is necessary. As explained above, we require that the additional time dimension is "a line comprised of uncountably infinite points". If new versions of timelines are only created if they are changed, due to time travel for example, then the number of "snapshots" of the timeline would be far more limited. The amount of snapshots would be one more than the times the timeline was changed. So, for example, if the timeline is rewritten 2 times, there would be 3 snapshots of the timeline: the original, the timeline after the first rewrite and the timeline after the second rewrite. That are far less than the required uncountably infinite many.

Even Clockwork rewinding the pulse is just undoing temporal damage and stopping the destruction from happening in the first place.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What I understand from your comment is that they went back in time where Prime Ben gets the omnitrix and then make sure he gets it, then because of that it causes the split? What do you mean by that? Do you mean that the Timelines start to branch off again?

Yes, they word for word say that.

They go outside of time after the bomb is detonated and then travel back to Prime Ben. After they get him the Omnitrix the multiverse branches again and causes everything that previously existed to happen again in the same way.

After that point it was just NWB and Paradox trying to stop Evil Ben and Vilgax from killing all the other Bens for a second time.

 

[Reiner04]

They go outside of time

Paradox can't go outside of Crosstime actually. He can travel anywhere, as long it is connected and comes under Crosstime, he's time Walker and going to places that exist outside of Crosstime goes beyond his reach.

"This time beast's egg will power your journey to places beyond even my reach." - Paradox to Ben

The white nothingness is the precursor to the creation of the Realm of The Timestream, inhabited by 5th dimensional beings. There is no time or space here as shown by Maltruant being unable to use his Time Manipulation and stated to be beyond Paradox's reach.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Paradox can't go outside of Crosstime actually.

They at least go outside of the main universal trunk, or at least that's how I'm reading his leaf statement.

 

[Reiner04]

They at least go outside of the main universal trunk, or at least that's how I'm reading his leaf statement.

Yeah. They were lost in time, Crosstime. Everything still follows it's order of events.