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Ben 10 Cosmology: High 1-B upgrade

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Firestorm808 said:
Qaws requested the following:
  • Spatial Characteristics
    • Unless you can prove that their home universe has spatial constructs to rely on, I don't see a method to qualify it. If they can't be defined by space and time then they're abstract rather than transcendent.
    • If the universe they come from has spatial characteristics then they would have it since they don't exist in a abstract or transcendental state to their own reality.
  • Disproving the possibility of being "Abstract" or "BDE"
    • The word "incalculable" could just mean that they are abstract in nature, which would also prevent them from being mathematically proven or comprehended by people like Ben.
    • Conceptually BDE exist already in Ben 10, with people like Paradox being accepted as having that as an ability
    • Incalculable means it can't be mathematically calculated and the explanation being that they lack aspects of space/time
    • Then being imperceivable can be explained with BDE rather than being uncountable infinite-D
  • For the above to go from abstract to having a principal foundation of a Von Neumann Hierarchy would mean that you'd have to show that their nature is ultimately bound and quantified by a set theory. Which is a bigger logical leap to me then just "They're abstract due to lacking these characteristics in a franchise where we accept that characters can lack these characteristics."
Click to expand...
Hasn't spatial characteristics already been given?
Hellformer said:
Each universe following counterintuitive physics. We do know that physics requires spatial characteristics for measurement right?
And since it has already been established that Universes inside space beyond lack spatio-temporal features at some time unless and Annihilarrgh is activated to create spatial and temporal structures, I don't see any reason to assume that the Universe of these aliens would lack it.
Also from the comic itself, those aliens say that their final destination lies on a blue planet in this star system and their main aim was to search the most powerful weapon of Ben's dimension. In order to determine this from their Universe, their tech must be able to detect "position" which is again a spatial characteristic.
Click to expand...
It's also consistent with beings like the Contumelia, who's forms are unperceivable and Nalgains, who claim that 26D to be unperceivable by lower beings.
 
Hellformer said:
Plain misunderstanding by Qawsedf from what exactly was being proposed. More like fallacious reasoning but I wouldn't care about this since the thread initially didn't focus on Low 1-A.
Click to expand...
The point is narrowing the scope of how "incalculable" should be applied. Even for High 1-B, you need examples of it being spatial and not abstract.
 
Firestorm808 said:
The point is narrowing the scope of how "incalculable" should be applied
Click to expand...
I think I had explained this in the CRT but instead of trying to counter that, he ended up twisting the proposal
Firestorm808 said:
. Even for High 1-B, you need examples of it being spatial and not abstract.
Click to expand...
I tried my best to convey this point, but I wouldn't mind it getting rejected.
 
Firestorm808 said:
The premise of the OP focuses on the application of "incalculable."

The OP presents examples of what is "calculable" within the setting. Technology such as the Anlg and the CTB are used to show that the quantity of infinity is "calculable."
Click to expand...
It just hit my mind that Dr Holiday (3-D being) could calculate infinite number of space-time continuums inside a timeline. More supporting evidence for incalculable in this context referring to atleast an infinite amount.
Does this seem reasonable @Firestorm808 @Celestial_Scaler25 ?
 
Hellformer said:
It just hit my mind that Dr Holiday (3-D being) could calculate infinite number of space-time continuums inside a timeline. More supporting evidence for incalculable in this context referring to atleast an infinite amount.
Does this seem reasonable @Firestorm808 @Celestial_Scaler25 ?
Click to expand...
In the episode Holiday didn't believe that Alternate dimensions existed till Ben showed up and she said it was merely a theory. So it's likely that it was another scientist or their tech that did it. It wouldn't surprise me as there are characters/tech in the show to have calculated infinite distance to have created a device capable of destroying such a space. And Galvans capable of creating a infinite space.
 
Celestial_Scaler25 said:
In the episode Holiday didn't believe that Alternate dimensions existed till Ben showed up and she said it was merely a theory. So it's likely that it was another scientist or their tech that did it. It wouldn't surprise me as there are characters/tech in the show to have calculated infinite distance to have created a device capable of destroying such a space. And Galvans capable of creating a infinite space.
Click to expand...
Yeah even their technology calculating infinity would be enough.
 
Firestorm just wants evidence of the dimensions truelly being spatial rather than abstract as Q suggested.
Firestorm808 said:
The point is narrowing the scope of how "incalculable" should be applied. Even for High 1-B, you need examples of it being spatial and not abstract.
Click to expand...
Spatial characteristics were given a while ago. So I'm confused on why this is still needs to be said as you'd already given more evidence of it being spatial than Q supporting is suggestion of them being abstract.
Celestial_Scaler25 said:
Hasn't spatial characteristics already been given?
Click to expand...
 
Celestial_Scaler25 said:
Firestorm just wants evidence of the dimensions truelly being spatial rather than abstract as Q suggested.

Spatial characteristics were given a while ago. So I'm confused on why this is still needs to be said as you'd already given more evidence of it being spatial than Q supporting is suggestion of them being abstract.
Click to expand...
Qawsedf's refutation is fallacious, otherwise by his logic, every time travelling character in Ben 10 should have immeasurable speed just because the time cycles have it. Can you sum the reasonings for spatial characteristics and ask if Firestorm agrees?
 
Hellformer said:
Qawsedf's refutation is fallacious, otherwise by his logic, every time travelling character in Ben 10 should have immeasurable speed just because the time cycles have it. Can you sum the reasonings for spatial characteristics and ask if Firestorm agrees?
Click to expand...
Firestorm808 said:
Qaws requested the following:
  • Spatial Characteristics
    • Unless you can prove that their home universe has spatial constructs to rely on, I don't see a method to qualify it. If they can't be defined by space and time then they're abstract rather than transcendent.
    • If the universe they come from has spatial characteristics then they would have it since they don't exist in a abstract or transcendental state to their own reality.
  • Disproving the possibility of being "Abstract" or "BDE"
    • The word "incalculable" could just mean that they are abstract in nature, which would also prevent them from being mathematically proven or comprehended by people like Ben.
    • Conceptually BDE exist already in Ben 10, with people like Paradox being accepted as having that as an ability
    • Incalculable means it can't be mathematically calculated and the explanation being that they lack aspects of space/time
    • Then being imperceivable can be explained with BDE rather than being uncountable infinite-D
Click to expand...
Spatial Characteristics:
Hellformer said:
Each universe following counterintuitive physics. We do know that physics requires spatial characteristics for measurement right?
And since it has already been established that Universes inside space beyond lack spatio-temporal features at some time unless and Annihilarrgh is activated to create spatial and temporal structures, I don't see any reason to assume that the Universe of these aliens would lack it.
Click to expand...
Space time is a subset of physics. And Annihilarrgh universes provide physics to any White void it is activated in as stated on Cosmo page. So this is accurate as they refer to their Universe as a Universe.
Hellformer said:
Also from the comic itself, those aliens say that their final destination lies on a blue planet in this star system and their main aim was to search the most powerful weapon of Ben's dimension. In order to determine this from their Universe, their tech must be able to detect "position" which is again a spatial characteristic.
Click to expand...
Their Universe being Higher Dimensional is also more consistent in verse as the Contumelia's forms couldn't be perceived by Ben and Rook and the Nalgians state that humans can't perceive anything above 3 dimensions.
Paradox lacking Spatiotemporality and having BDE is inconsistent with these beings as Paradox's form is perceivable by lowerD being unlike the Nalgian's forms, the 26D the Nalgians mention and the Universe of these 'Omega' beings.
HDE is also a in verse ability. So it already has the same, if not more reason to be HDE than BDE.
 
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Seems about right, Annihilargh creates Universes with different laws of physics instead of abstract realms. Now we gotta wait for Firestorm, if he agrees.
Celestial_Scaler25 said:
Spatial Characteristics:

Space time is a subset of physics. And Annihilarrgh universes provide physics to any White void it is activated in as stated on Cosmo page. So this is accurate as they refer to their Universe as a Universe.

Their Universe being Higher Dimensional is also more consistent in verse as the Contumelia's forms couldn't be perceived by Ben and Rook and the Nalgians state that humans can't perceive anything above 3 dimensions.
Paradox lacking Spatiotemporality and having BDE is inconsistent with these beings as Paradox's form is perceivable by lowerD being unlike the Nalgian's forms, the 26D the Nalgians mention and the Universe of these 'Omega' beings.
HDE is also a in verse ability. So it already a the same, if not more reason to be HDE than BDE.
Click to expand...
 
Celestial_Scaler25 said:
Spatial Characteristics:

Space time is a subset of physics. And Annihilarrgh universes provide physics to any White void it is activated in as stated on Cosmo page. So this is accurate as they refer to their Universe as a Universe.

Their Universe being Higher Dimensional is also more consistent in verse as the Contumelia's forms couldn't be perceived by Ben and Rook and the Nalgians state that humans can't perceive anything above 3 dimensions.
Paradox lacking Spatiotemporality and having BDE is inconsistent with these beings as Paradox's form is perceivable by lowerD being unlike the Nalgian's forms, the 26D the Nalgians mention and the Universe of these 'Omega' beings.
HDE is also a in verse ability. So it already has the same, if not more reason to be HDE than BDE.
Click to expand...
Hellformer said:
Seems about right, Annihilargh creates Universes with different laws of physics instead of abstract realms. Now we gotta wait for Firestorm, if he agrees.
Click to expand...
@Firestorm808 Summarised all supporting stuff.
 
GeneralSol16 said:
Wouldn't Celesfialsapien scale the highest? For what I understand, a Ben 10 Universe would be H1B, and we know that Celesfialsapiens had transcended our very plane of existence, so they see something H1B below them.
Click to expand...
That is for the future upgrade plans, right now High 1-B is all we can hope but I doubt that this CRT will be rejected.
 
I ha
Hellformer said:
That is for the future upgrade plans, right now High 1-B is all we can hope but I doubt that this CRT will be rejected.
Click to expand...
I Have a question. Since creator said upchuck can digest celestialsapien body. Should they get 1-B, and High 1-B in the future if this crt accept.
 
Firestorm808 said:
The premise of the OP focuses on the application of "incalculable."

The OP presents examples of what is "calculable" within the setting. Technology such as the Anlg and the CTB are used to show that the quantity of infinity is "calculable."

It proposes that "incalculable" should refer to a quantity at least "infinite."

In turn, they posit their home universe is an "at least infinite dimension."
Click to expand...
Can you please reply to the summary?
 
@Qawsedf234

To summarize the recent discussion:

All universes are created by Annihilarrghs from voids that lack Space-Time. While each universe may have different physics, they still create an underlying Space-Time structure.

Both Ben's Universe and the Alien's Universe are created by Annihilarrghs with an underlying Space-Time Structure, not something abstract.

Would you say this is agreeable?
 
Last edited:
Firestorm808 said:
@Qawsedf234

To summarize the recent discussion:

All universes are created by Annihilarrghs from voids that lack Space-Time. While each universe may have different physics, they still create an underlying Space-Time structure.

Both Ben's Universe and the Alien's Universe are created by Annihilarrghs with an underlying Space-Time Structure, not something abstract.

Would you say this is agreeable?
Click to expand...
Qawsedf234 said:
I didn't leave, I was just waiting on Plank to comment again.
Click to expand...
Qawsedf, can you please respond to this?
 
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