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Ben 10 Cosmology: High 1-B upgrade

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Qawsedf234 said:
The dimensions can't be qualitative, since they're built on a lower structure. The fact you can rise "up" the ladder to a higher state automatically prevents it from being 1-A, since you require a complete separation there.

The argument given by the OP is that the aliens can't be calculated dimension wise, so they have an uncountable infinite number of dimensions and should be High 1-B to Low 1-A. I'm saying that the world incalculable could just be them being abstract in nature, which would also prevent them from being mathematically proven or comprehended by people like Ben.

In neither case would the Aliens or Space-Beyond be 1-A.
Click to expand...
Nope
 
Qawsedf234 said:
The dimensions can't be qualitative, since they're built on a lower structure. The fact you can rise "up" the ladder to a higher state automatically prevents it from being 1-A, since you require a complete separation there.

The argument given by the OP is that the aliens can't be calculated dimension wise, so they have an uncountable infinite number of dimensions and should be High 1-B to Low 1-A. I'm saying that the world incalculable could just be them being abstract in nature, which would also prevent them from being mathematically proven or comprehended by people like Ben.

In neither case would the Aliens or Space-Beyond be 1-A.
Click to expand...
Please show me a structure that refers to every possible dimension in the universe.
 
OMNIVERSAL-KING said:
Doesn't this also sound good ?
I mean if someone agrees that their realm being incalculable means that their realm is abstract then we can combine it with the statment of "defying spatiotemporality" and call it "L1-A to 1-A" (if their realm is abstract with being beyond spatiotemporality then it's lack of continuity)
Tho L1-A is most reasonable here
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Isn't that basic BDE Type 2.
Qawsedf234 said:
Unless you can prove that their home universe has spatial constructs to rely on, I don't see a method to qualify it. If they can't be defined by space and time then they're abstract rather than transcendent.
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Hellformer said:
Each universe following counterintuitive physics. We do know that physics requires spatial characteristics for measurement right?
And since it has already been established that Universes inside space beyond lack spatio-temporal features at some time unless and Annihilarrgh is activated to create spatial and temporal structures, I don't see any reason to assume that the Universe of these aliens would lack it.
Also from the comic itself, those aliens say that their final destination lies on a blue planet in this star system and their main aim was to search the most powerful weapon of Ben's dimension. In order to determine this from their Universe, their tech must be able to detect "position" which is again a spatial characteristic.
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This is also consistent in Ben 10 as the higher dimensional forms of the Contumelia couldn't be perceived by Ben and Rook and the Nalgians state that due to being a young species that the Trio can't perceive beyond 3 dimensions. They also state to defy the limitation of space time. So that would make them of a higher order.
 
Celestial_Scaler25 said:
Isn't that basic BDE Type 2.


This is also consistent in Ben 10 as the higher dimensional forms of the Contumelia couldn't be perceived by Ben and Rook and the Nalgians state that due to being a young species that the Trio can't perceive beyond 3 dimensions. They also state to defy the limitation of space time. So that would make them of a higher order.
Click to expand...
What is your answer for low 1-A?
 
Celestial_Scaler25 said:
I agreed with what Firestorm808 and Hellformer were saying regarding L1A but High 1B is fine too. But the notion that these dimensions are abstract and don't scale anywhere makes little to no sense.
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Yes, I think the high 1B level is enough, my friend. There doesn't seem to be enough information for Low 1-A and this can be interpreted in many ways. We agree.
 
Lord_Farquaad69420 said:
I’m am. That’s what they said last I checked
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Firestorm808 hasn't decided yet and is still listening to arguments from both sides.
Plank had decided on 1B(incalculable finiteD)
DarkModeus is waiting on Firestorm's decision.
Quadsedf is counter-argueing that this doesn't scale anywhere.
Wait for staff to make their final decision please.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
The dimensions can't be qualitative, since they're built on a lower structure.
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Yes. The point I was making is that the start and end points of the transdimensional vessel had to be the same type. Spatial to spatial. N-D to 3-D.

There is no precedent in the series of dimensions being abstract in natire.

The dimensions are consistently portrayed as spatial in nature.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Yes. The point I was making is that the start and end points of the transdimensional vessel had to be the same type. Spatial to spatial. N-D to 3-D.
Click to expand...
Why? The point of the vessal was to make a trip they normally couldn't in their original states, which can be explained by just being BDE/abstract in existence.
Firestorm808 said:
There is no precedent in the series of dimensions being abstract in natire.
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There has to be somewhere, since there are Ben 10 characters have BDE, which requires have a zero-dimensionality realm in some capacity.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Why? The point of the vessal was to make a trip they normally couldn't in their original states, which can be explained by just being BDE/abstract in existence.

There has to be somewhere, since there are Ben 10 characters have BDE, which requires have a zero-dimensionality realm in some capacity.
Click to expand...
Why are we assuming that the aliens have some innate Dimensional Travel or BDE. Nothing suggests it. They simply used a vessel to travel from one dimension to another.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Why are we assuming that the aliens have some innate Dimensional Travel or BDE. Nothing suggests it.
Click to expand...
Then having an incalculable form due to lacking spatial and temporal chrematistics would suggest it.

Honestly I haven't seen anything that really convinces me of the Low 1-A rating, so the OP can just list me as disagree. If you agree with it, then the vote is 1-1. Whenever Planck recomments it'll be 2 vs 1 and we can just go with whatever they or another mod picks since the 48 hours have gone by.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Then having an incalculable form due to lacking spatial and temporal chrematistics would suggest it.

Honestly I haven't seen anything that really convinces me of the Low 1-A rating, so the OP can just list me as disagree. If you agree with it, then the vote is 1-1. Whenever Planck recomments it'll be 2 vs 1 and we can just go with whatever they or another mod picks since the 48 hours have gone by.
Click to expand...
The important thing for me is that it's communicated clearly to the thread what's needed to be presented in order to fulfill your requirements.
 
Firestorm808 said:
The important thing for me is that it's communicated clearly to the thread what's needed to be presented in order to fulfill your requirements.
Click to expand...
I guess ultimately my thoughts are the following:
  • Conceptually BDE exist already in Ben 10, with people like Paradox being accepted as having that as an ability
  • Incalculable means it can't be mathematically calculated and the explanation being that they lack aspects of space/time
  • Then being imperceivable can be explained with BDE rather than being uncountable infinite-D
For the above to go from abstract to having a principal foundation of a Von Neumann Hierarchy would mean that you'd have to show that their nature is ultimately bound and quantified by a set theory. Which is a bigger logical leap to me then just "They're abstract due to lacking these characteristics in a franchise where we accept that characters can lack these characteristics".
 
Firestorm808 said:
The important thing for me is that it's communicated clearly to the thread what's needed to be presented in order to fulfill your requirements.
Click to expand...
Would require a statement of superiority over spacetime in general (i.e. "All space and time" [unless the verse qualifies even that], "All (mathematical) dimensions, etc) at minimum. This is wholly absent here, seeing as all that's stated is:

1) The aliens are from an "incalculable" dimension (Honestly a meaningless statement)

2) The aliens' dimension "defies the limits of" space and time (No real clarification if that refers to spacetime in general or to a singular universes or set of universe. It also says "defies," which by no means indicates any sort of superiority)

3) The aliens are incomprehensible.

So, yeah, no Low 1-A.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Would require a statement of superiority over spacetime in general (i.e. "All space and time" [unless the verse qualifies even that], "All (mathematical) dimensions, etc) at minimum. This is wholly absent here, seeing as all that's stated is:

1) The aliens are from an "incalculable" dimension (Honestly a meaningless statement)

2) The aliens' dimension "defies the limits of" space and time (No real clarification if that refers to spacetime in general or to a singular universes or set of universe. It also says "defies," which by no means indicates any sort of superiority)

3) The aliens are incomprehensible.

So, yeah, no Low 1-A.
Click to expand...
Can you please read the OP and see if it qualifies for High 1-B atleast? Because that was something originally presented.
 
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