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Beerus vs Sans

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LordXcano said:
I've only seen teleportation and magic from Sans. He makes bones and Gasterblasters and can teleport. What suggests he can negate durability/reality warp?
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he is able to harm a multiversal being to spite having infinitely inferior stats and alters the game rules so his attacks provide no invincibility frames
 
Squid peanut said:
he is able to harm a multiversal being to spite having infinitely inferior stats and alters the game rules so his attacks provide no invincibility frames
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And what suggests Frisk's body has multiversal durability? No invincibility frames could be a property of his attack, rather than him reality warping.
 
LordXcano said:
And what suggests Frisk's body has multiversal durability? No invincibility frames could be a property of his attack, rather than him reality warping.
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Not Frisk's body, their soul (which is technically the culmination of everything but w/e).
 
LordXcano said:
And what suggests Frisk's body has multiversal durability? No invincibility frames could be a property of his attack, rather than him reality warping.
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1) Chara possessed Frisk was able to take hits from Undyne the Undying and if the genocide route is aborded before reaching sans, can take hits from Omega Flowey, both of these have been seen as a likely multiversal feat and a definite multiversal feat respectively, additionally we know for a fact that Frisk/Chara is determined to defeat sans as sans is pissing them off and you get sans fighting a multiversal being

2)as for Reality warping IDK, however the result is the same and coming into contact with sans' bones causes you to be inside them and take extremely rapid damege
 
"Not Frisk's body, their soul (which is technically the culmination of everything but w/e)."

If we're gonna do that then nobody in Undertale is physically universal or has speed above that of a normal human, which means Beerus would win without problem.

"1) Chara possessed Frisk was able to take hits from Undyne the Undying and if the genocide route is aborded before reaching sans, can take hits from Omega Flowey, both of these have been seen as a likely multiversal feat and a definite multiversal feat respectively, additionally we know for a fact that Frisk/Chara is determined to defeat sans as sans is pissing them off and you get sans fighting a multiversal being"

Chara in her abstract form can bust the multiverse, and Flowey busts it through non-physical means, so taking hits from them doesn't suggest that level of durability.
 
LordXcano said:
"Not Frisk's body, their soul (which is technically the culmination of everything but w/e)."
If we're gonna do that then nobody in Undertale is physically universal or has speed above that of a normal human, which means Beerus would win without problem.
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lol What are you even talking about? Attacks in Undertale specifically harm the soul, which is the culmination of everything you are, not just your spiritual essence or physical body. For instance, Papyrus attacks you with actual, physical bones, but they still damage your soul.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
lol What are you even talking about? Attacks in Undertale specifically harm the soul, which is the culmination of everything you are, not just your spiritual essence or physical body. For instance, Papyrus attacks you with actual, physical bones, but they still damage your soul.
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I was saying that just because Flowey/Chara can erase timelines and such, doesn't mean that they have multiversal attack output with their physical attacks or have multiversal durability.

This is why Bowser was set to Unknown, he can destroy the universe with the Grand Star but it's a hax-y ability, not indicative of his physical strength or durability.
 
Bowser's Grand Star stats were changed because Bowser himself doesn't gain the power to destroy the universe, as well as being hurt by things that are less than universe level. Both Flowey and Chara have the ability to do this on their own, and Chara even does it with an attack. Assuming their stats to be less than this for no good reason is suspect at best.
 
I know Chara does it as an attack, but nobody is ever actually hit with that attack and survives. You can say that since it all comes down to Determination that characters who take hits from Chara/Frisk in the genocide run are universal, but then I can say that a whole lot of monsters are universal for taking more than one hit to kill. There's obviously something different about Chara/Frisk than the Chara you meet pre-possesion.

I know Flowey can destroy universes/timelines, but its still a hax ability, so taking hits from Flowey doesn't imply Multiversal durability in the same way Booker taking hits from Elizabeth doesn't mean he's Multiversal despite the fact she can do the same thing.
 
Obviously Chara gets stronger the more their influence grows throughout the genocide run, but the point is that Sans fights them right before the end when they're a single level before being "absolute".

I don't see how that's strictly hax. God Flowey is superior to Chara, and Chara was fully capable of doing it via regular attacks. It would be reasonable to say taking hits from God Flowey implies multiversal durability.
 
"Obviously Chara gets stronger the more their influence grows throughout the genocide run, but the point is that Sans fights them right before the end when they're a single level before being "absolute"."

I'm 90% sure you can still fight monsters that take more than one hit to kill, and I doubt that the final level is such a massive boost to your power, especially since Asgore survives a hit from you, albeit barely.

"I don't see how that's strictly hax. God Flowey is superior to Chara, and Chara was fully capable of doing it via regular attacks. It would be reasonable to say taking hits from God Flowey implies multiversal durability."

See above, there's nothing to suggest multiversal things except for Frisk in the Neutral Route, Chara when out of Frisk's body, and Omega Flowey. Genocide Route Frisk seems to be, ironically, the weakest.
 
the reason that normal monsters fare better than any of the bosses is that Chara is completely un interested in them, and since they dont care, their determination is especially low. if this wasn't the case it would make Undyne the Undying have similar durability to jerry, which very much isn't the case
 
LordXcano said:
I'm 90% sure you can still fight monsters that take more than one hit to kill, and I doubt that the final level is such a massive boost to your power, especially since Asgore survives a hit from you, albeit barely.

See above, there's nothing to suggest multiversal things except for Frisk in the Neutral Route, Chara when out of Frisk's body, and Omega Flowey. Genocide Route Frisk seems to be, ironically, the weakest.
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It seems pretty obvious as to why random mooks still put up a fight whereas scripted encounters don't, unless you want to vouch for Final Froggit being superior to Asgore or something like that.

There's nothing to suggest multiversal things...except when said multiversal things happen. Then we have Omega Flowey, who is superior to one of the characters who performed said multiversal feats, meaning he's pretty clearly multiversal.
 
"There's nothing to suggest multiversal things...except when said multiversal things happen. Then we have Omega Flowey, who is superior to one of the characters who performed said multiversal feats, meaning he's pretty clearly multiversal."

I know they happen, I'm saying they only scale to Neutral Frisk, Chara when not possessing Frisk, and Omega Flowey. They do not scale to Sans.
 
I was never implying they scaled to him. All I was pointing out was that he fought a very powerful Chara, but not full powered Chara. Hence why I never rated Sans as multiversal, because he's not.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
I was never implying they scaled to him. All I was pointing out was that he fought a very powerful Chara, but not full powered Chara. Hence why I never rated Sans as multiversal, because he's not.
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Which is what I was getting at. A lot of people up there were saying he could hurt Chara so therefore one hit would quickly kill Beerus. Since all we can scale from is Asgore, Chara at that state would be "Mountain level, likely higher", which would make Sans far too weak to hurt Beerus.

Yeah he can use KR but that's still unquantifiable to an extent, and I doubt it can hurt someone with universal durability.
 
That's missing the point just as much as multiversal Sans is. Yes, he could hurt Chara's soul, so he could hurt Beerus. That should be obvious. However, this does not make him multiverse level.

Sans' attacks' real strength comes from KR and how much EXP his opponent has gained. Beerus has gained a LOT. Much more than Chara had, in fact.

Should Sans hit Beerus, yes, Beerus is completely dead. No questions. KR would obliterate him. This doesn't mean Sans could just go around and hurt ANYONE with this durability, though. He'd have a far easier time harming Beerus than he would harming Captain America due to how his powers work.
 
"Sans' attacks' real strength comes from KR and how much EXP his opponent has gained. Beerus has gained a LOT. Much more than Chara had, in fact."

I would argue Beerus has gained 0 EXP and 0 KR because he doesn't operate on Undertale mechanics. Otherwise Sans would have Ki.

"Should Sans hit Beerus, yes, Beerus is completely dead. No questions. KR would obliterate him. This doesn't mean Sans could just go around and hurt ANYONE with this durability, though. He'd have a far easier time harming Beerus than he would harming Captain America due to how his powers work."

Is there any proof of that though? It does 1 damage each "hit", and there's nothing to suggest it'd lead to more damage each "hit" if you had higher KR/EXP. Otherwise Sans likely would've soloed Omega Flowey since he was LVL 9999 IIRC.
 
LordXcano said:
I would argue Beerus has gained 0 EXP and 0 KR because he doesn't operate on Undertale mechanics. Otherwise Sans would have Ki.

Is there any proof of that though? It does 1 damage each "hit", and there's nothing to suggest it'd lead to more damage each "hit" if you had higher KR/EXP. Otherwise Sans likely would've soloed Omega Flowey since he was LVL 9999 IIRC.
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Except EXP isn't some magical force? Hell, EXP isn't even mechanics, in this case. The only thing game mechanics about it is leveling up via EXP. It's literally just defined by how much pain you've caused and how many people you've killed. That's it. That applies to Beerus, who I'm pretty sure has killed a countless number of people over the span of 75 million years.

No, it doesn't. Sans' bones do one damage each "hit", then KR proceeds to eat away at the enemy, afterwards. This is exactly what happens to Chara. They take a single point of damage, and then KR goes to work, and stacks should they take any extra hits while KR is doing its thing. As for soloing Omega Flowey, why on earth would Sans' be able to fight against something with immeasurable speed that could simply fully reset its HP once it dropped to zero?
 
"Except EXP isn't some magical force? Hell, EXP isn't even mechanics, in this case. The only thing game mechanics about it is leveling up via EXP. It's literally just defined by how much pain you've caused and how many people you've killed. That's it. That applies to Beerus, who I'm pretty sure has killed a countless number of people over the span of 75 million years."

Alright, but do we have anything that suggests KR would scale to do more damage if you have a higher amount of EXP?

"No, it doesn't. Sans' bones do one damage each "hit", then KR proceeds to eat away at the enemy, afterwards. This is exactly what happens to Chara. They take a single point of damage, and then KR goes to work, and stacks should they take any extra hits while KR is doing its thing. As for soloing Omega Flowey, why on earth would Sans' be able to fight against something with immeasurable speed that could simply fully reset its HP once it dropped to zero?"

Yeah, what I mean is like, each time KR eats away at your HP it's 1 per part. Like, imagine if a poison move in Pokemon did 10 damage per turn, or a poison attack in Diablo did 1 damage per second. Same concept. There's nothing to suggest that just because Beerus would have more EXP that KR would start doing a million billion damage per turn.

Yeah I know Omega Flowey can just reset his HP once it dropped to zero, but so could Chara/Frisk and that didn't really stop Sans. He could've just hit Flowey with a Gaster Blaster and if KR worked as you describe it that should've been the entire fight.

Sans hits

Flowey resets timeline at 0

Sans hits again

Repeat

It's no different from fighting Chara/Frisk, Flowey is just more powerful.
 
Because that's what KR is. It's Karmic Retribution. Damage based on how much pain you've caused. Sans will always confront Chara at the end of the genocide route, and Flowey makes it seem like Sans would always come after him at the end of his rampage, likely due to him racking up so much EXP. Because of this, we don't really have a reason to assume KR caps here and that this is somehow just as high as it can go. Especially considering Chara still gains EXP after killing Sans.

The difference between Omega Flowey and Chara is that Omega Flowey doesn't wait until he's dead to do this. He simply makes it so that his HP was basically never dropped to 0 in the first place. He only even pretended he was dying so he could basically troll Frisk and laugh like a maniac in the process. I don't see how Sans could compete with that, let alone OF's complete control over over time.
 
I'm not saying the KR cap would equate to an EXP cap, I'm saying that no matter how much EXP you have KR will still just do 1 damage per second, because we have no reason to assume otherwise.

Alright, I'll concede on Omega Flowey.
 
I'd argue that we do have reason to assume otherwise, as if KR didn't increase in intensity with EXP gained, Sans likely would have confronted Chara far earlier. Yes, one could argue that he's lazy or that he didn't realize the threat, but the pure genocide route is the ONLY route in which he considers you to be a danger. You can murder everyone except a single monster and he still won't confront you, but from the first time he meets you in the genocide route, he knows there's something not right about you, and by the time you're finished with Snowdin (and his brother), he pretty much realizes how dangerous you really are.

I'd also argue KR working that way would defeat the point of KR, as that means it would eat away at someone who had killed one person just as much as someone who had killed several million.
 
"I'd argue that we do have reason to assume otherwise, as if KR didn't increase in intensity with EXP gained, Sans likely would have confronted Chara far earlier. Yes, one could argue that he's lazy or that he didn't realize the threat, but the pure genocide route is the ONLY route in which he considers you to be a danger. You can murder everyone except a single monster and he still won't confront you, but from the first time he meets you in the genocide route, he knows there's something not right about you, and by the time you're finished with Snowdin (and his brother), he pretty much realizes how dangerous you really are."

Doesn't he know that you can time travel anyway so there's no point in him fighting you until the end? If he fights you right after Snowdin he's unprepared and might demoralize other monsters, if he fights you right before Asgore he either loses or wins with no negative consequences to further defenses against you.

"I'd also argue KR working that way would defeat the point of KR, as that means it would eat away at someone who had killed one person just as much as someone who had killed several million."

And Saitama not one-shotting everyone out-of-universe "defeats the point" of him. We go with the feats we have, and what we have is it does 1 damage after each interval of time passes.
 
He knows you can time travel, but that wouldn't change his strategy. At any point, it would just be to beat you until you give up and go do something else.

Completely false equivalency, not to mention Saitama's (albeit casual) attacks have failed to one-shot people even within the confines of his universe. KR specifically runs on karma, hence why it's called Karmic Retribution in the first place. The whole deal with karma is that the return is equivalent. It's not like your punishment for slaughtering an entire village is stubbing your toe and dropping some ice cream on the floor, so assuming it would do the same to someone who has killed a countless number of people as it did to someone who killed a few hundred is missing the point of the power and what makes it so dangerous, in the first place.
 
also keep in mind that this puny one damage is against a pissed off countless universe buster. the point isn't "sans does one damage a bunch on someone with 92 health" it's "this skeleton is using the karma of a multiversal being killing a kingdom to destroying every facet of said being in a matter of seconds." if high numbers meant high power than niponverse would be top tier.
 
"Completely false equivalency, not to mention Saitama's (albeit casual) attacks have failed to one-shot people even within the confines of his universe. KR specifically runs on karma, hence why it's called Karmic Retribution in the first place. The whole deal with karma is that the return is equivalent. It's not like your punishment for slaughtering an entire village is stubbing your toe and dropping some ice cream on the floor, so assuming it would do the same to someone who has killed a countless number of people as it did to someone who killed a few hundred is missing the point of the power and what makes it so dangerous, in the first place."

False analogy, this is more being stabbed once every second or so. A guy who killed 1 person is stabbed once. A guy who killed trillions is stabbed trillions of times. More punishment, same damage per hit.

"also keep in mind that this puny one damage is against a pissed off countless universe buster. the point isn't "sans does one damage a bunch on someone with 92 health" it's "this skeleton is using the karma of a multiversal being killing a kingdom to destroying every facet of said being in a matter of seconds." if high numbers meant high power than niponverse would be top tier."

I thought we established earlier that Chara at this point was not multiversal.
 
LordXcano said:
False analogy, this is more being stabbed once every second or so. A guy who killed 1 person is stabbed once. A guy who killed trillions is stabbed trillions of times. More punishment, same damage per hit.

I thought we established earlier that Chara at this point was not multiversal.
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I have no idea how that would work. By the very nature of the attack, more punishment translates to more damage per hit.

We established that Chara was below their fullest potential, but that does not mean they were hundreds of billions of trillions of quintillions of times weaker than they were immediately after said battle. Even if they were countless times weaker, their durability (which is what matters here) could still be well within universe level+, which would still be an impressive feat on Sans' part. Yes, Chara/Frisk's soul grew in strength throughout the journey, but by this point, it was still nearly at its peak.
 
simply put, sans has shown that his offencive potential is enough to seriously harm Beerus if Beerus had killed as many people as Chara has, but from what I've heard Beerus has way more blood on his hands and thus it is safe to assume that KR will be even more potent on Beerus then Chara. this mixed with the fact that Chara has more durability than Beerus and the very nature of sans' attacks is why I say he would win here. and yes Beerus would have LOVE it just wouldn't give him much in the way of benifits since his strength comes from his physical body, not a powerful soul that can be weaponized the more willing you are to kill people.
 
Squid peanut said:
simply put, sans has shown that his offencive potential is enough to seriously harm Beerus if Beerus had killed as many people as Chara has, but from what I've heard Beerus has way more blood on his hands and thus it is safe to assume that KR will be even more potent on Beerus then Chara.
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To answer the question about Beerus' kill count, he's over 75 million years old and frequently blows up inhabited planets at least once every several years, so...there's that.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
To answer the question about Beerus' kill count, he's over 75 million years old and frequently blows up inhabited planets at least once every several years, so...there's that.
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he's boned.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
To answer the question about Beerus' kill count, he's over 75 million years old and frequently blows up inhabited planets at least once every several years, so...there's that.
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Somehow it doesn't make sense to me that someone who is responsible for billions of times more death and destruction would get a faster and less painful death than someone who has killed 100-200 people.

And again, Chara can destroy the universe in the genocide run, not Frisk. I doubt that Chara would put their own soul into harm's way when all they want is the satisfaction of murdering a lot of people.
 
I wouldn't say speed necessarily equates to less pain, at least not in this case.

Chara's soul and Frisk's are basically one and the same at that point, as that is the point of no return in which a genocide run cannot be backed out of. Also, I'm fairly certain after a certain point, Chara was aware of SAVE and LOAD functions and knew they were never actually in any danger. Not that it would have mattered to them, anyway. This is the same child who ingested poisonous flowers and died in a horrifically painful way just so they could potentially murder some people.
 
KR stops at 1 HP anyway, and even with an absurdly high speed like it doing its damage every nanosecond that's still far more than enough time for Beerus to realize "wowie owie" and murder Sans.
 
KR stops at 1 HP, but I'm not sure how well Beerus is going to fight while on the verge of death, meaning one hit will pretty much cripple him, and another will kill him. Like I said, there's no guarantee Sans will land these hits, but with the combination of his abilities and cheap tactics, I don't think it's unlikely he'd land the necessary hits on Beerus at least a few times out of ten, though I'd argue for more like around half since this is all in character.
 
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