Bayonetta revisions part 2

[Comicgyal]

Not too sure what to say really, of course the easy argument is to say “Irenic wasn’t going full speed” because of the cars around them, not like the other cars matter due to what keeweed said above.

Yet when you have a hierarchy established in the verse, and the angels get stronger and stronger as they move up, it’s very unlikely to say that no Angel above Irenic wouldnt scale. He’s a third sphere with first sphere halos, other first spheres are comparable, the Cardinal virtues are vastly superior, and the rest goes without saying.

To me, just because others don’t move “as fast” as Irenic before his introduction, doesn’t mean they don’t/haven’t been moving that speed at all. Balder, Aesir, Jubileus, Rodin, Fortitudo, etc should all realistically be faster, if not directly comparable to a speed feat from a fodder tier. Irenic is just the one with a statement about how fast it’s moving, that’s all. You can’t debunk an Ingame hierarchy.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Weekly that is exactly my point. If they have faster movement speed than her they would need to slow down to fight her. Because they would instantly pass her if they didn’t slow down.

Youre saying this like i am disagreeing with you...

 

[Dienomite22]

I mean once again I can think of a crap ton of speed feats that have normal humans do normal human things despite their being like a sound wave or lightning bolt moving towards them. So I don’t think using the normal cars is a good idea.

That's fine but the point was the Irenics weren't moving at their MFTL+ speed based on the intro cutscene for Irenics showing normal a normal truck reacting to being hit from behind by Irenic and therefore gives credence to your belief that maybe the Irenics are slowing down to fight Bayonetta.

 

[Keeweed]

But Weekly my point is that this mean Bayonetta can’t scale to their top speed. Because she won’t react to their top speed, she would react to their slowed down speed. Because they would have immediately passed her if they didn’t slow down.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

But Weekly my point is that this mean Bayonetta can’t scale to their top speed. Because she won’t react to their top speed, she would react to their slowed down speed. Because they would have immediately passed her if they didn’t slow down.

They...do immediately pass her though, like constantly, they bypass her on her bike the entire level, thats what the level itself is, bayo shootig them as they do driveby shootings at her withangels on top

 

[Comicgyal]

The Irenics “slowing down” to fight Bayonetta as I’ve already said is not a good argument, because the Irenics not only spawn ahead of Bayonetta, but appear by / drive past her if you’re just speeding through the level. We should be focusing less on the car scene, and more on if the feat would even make sense in context for the verse.

Would Bayonetta be capable of going Irenics speed, or reacting to it. That’s what we should be discussing, and because the answer is quite easily yes I think that’s why we’ve been debating cars for so long lol

 

[Dienomite22]

They...do immediately pass her though, like constantly, they bypass her on her bike the entire level, thats what the level itself is, bayo shootig them as they do driveby shootings at her withangels on top

No, it's not. The Irenic's in the level are already ahead of Bayonetta, not passing her while she goes through the level.

 

[Keeweed]

They...do immediately pass her though, like constantly, they bypass her on her bike the entire level, thats what the level itself is, bayo shootig them as they do driveby shootings at her withangels on top

After rewatching the level (since its been a little while since I’ve played Bayonetta), she catches up to them multiple times in that level. Which I think either A) means she does scale which brings this into the outlier conversation, or B) They are constantly varying speeds and thus there is no way to know if Bayonetta reacted to their fastest speed.

 

[Dienomite22]

The Irenics “slowing down” to fight Bayonetta as I’ve already said is not a good argument, because the Irenics not only spawn ahead of Bayonetta, but appear by / drive past her if you’re just speeding through the level. We should be focusing less on the car scene, and more on if the feat would even make sense in context for the verse.

If they are already ahead of her and appear by/past her when she speeds through the level then wouldn't that indicate that it's impossible to actually determine if they are moving at their top speed during the gameplay section? And wouldn't that suggest they are purposefully slowing down during sections of the gameplay?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

It doesnw ehnsaid "inferior feats" are performed extremely casually.

Casually does not equal a millions of times gap

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Casually does not equal a millions of times gap

It does for literally every other verse though, just saying

 

[Theglassman12]

The balder Pluto laser feat is NOT a casual feat, especially when we have seen him casually firing a normal shot as opposed to a full power shot, the former being when he hits Jeanne when ripping Bayo out of jubileus, and the latter being the laser beam to Pluto

 

[Cyberblader90]

whet is even going even more

 

[Keeweed]

Ignoring how one of those MFTL+ feats leads to a game over for Bayonetta so I’m not even sure if that would be causal. I know jubileus took a massive beating, but the game promptly said she apparently wrecked your shit when she got back, so it’s kinda contradictory. Granted I’m definitely leaning a lot more to saying the feat should be causal and that game over is just incredibly dumb. Just want to point out the feat is kinda weird.

 

[EFÍTÉ]

I mean once again I can think of a crap ton of speed feats that have normal humans do normal human things despite their being like a sound wave or lightning bolt moving towards them. So I don’t think using the normal cars is a good idea.

the problem again.
Irenic is a vehicle, comparing him to other vehicles is fair on this case, you cant als negate you are trying to use those types of moments to be applied to Irenic, which is wrong because again, he is a vehicle, Bayo only scales if she reacted to Irenic at top speed, and this specific situation where she would reacted never happened.

And the fact is being tried to scale this feat to other when the consistency of those other characters are the likes of 1OOOc (MFTL+) is rediculous.

I dont have problems with Irenic's feat scalling only to himself.

 

[Comicgyal]

If they are already ahead of her and appear by/past her when she speeds through the level then wouldn't that indicate that it's impossible to actually determine if they are moving at their top speed during the gameplay section? And wouldn't that suggest they are purposefully slowing down during sections of the gameplay?

Which is why I said let’s stop talking about the cars, and more about if she could scale to Irenic to begin with. I explained above that by their hierarchy standards, Bayonetta and first sphere angels+ would be realistically able to scale to Irenics top speed. I’ve explained that it’s speed is a special case by its lore entry, but in no means is it the only case.

 

[Comicgyal]

whet is even going even more

The reason why ant said this should be a staff only + select few thread, it’s becoming the same jumbled mess just like every other Bayonetta thread where people disagree.

 

[Theglassman12]

How would they realistically scale with the lack of feats on that level? MFTL+ is not Massively Hypersonic or relativistic where the speed gaps aren’t that wide.

 

[Keeweed]

It does for literally every other verse though, just saying

It shouldn’t, so if you have some examples on your mind I won’t mind looking at those. To be fair I can think of a verse I like that has a gap like that, so

Edit: forgot to remove this when responding to EFITE. I’ll just make a thread on a verse I know later.

the problem again.
Irenic is a vehicle, comparing him to other vehicles is fair on this case, you cant als negate you are trying to use those types of moments to be applied to Irenic, which is wrong because again, he is a vehicle, Bayo only scales if she reacted to Irenic at top speed, and this specific situation where she would reacted never happened.

And the fact is being tried to scale this feat to other when the consistency of those other characters are the likes of 1OOOc (MFTL+) is rediculous.

I dont have problems with Irenic's feat scalling only to himself.

I absolutely see where people are coming from when it comes to the cars and humans reacting to it or moving a similar speed being a problem. I personally don’t see it as a problem but I can see why people would disagree.

I absolutely agree with your two other points though.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

whet is even going even more

Hell if i know, thread was accepted but these guys dont like it i guess

 

[WeeklyBattles]

How would they realistically scale with the lack of feats on that level? MFTL+ is not Massively Hypersonic or relativistic where the speed gaps aren’t that wide.

The gap between supersonic and MHS is the same as this yet there are people who are MHS with a **** ton of casual supersonic feats yet i dont see you trying to downgrade them based on this logic. Its only a problem because its a verse you dislike, if this werent Bayonetta you wouldnt be making these ridiculous arguments.

 

[Keeweed]

Hell if i know, thread was accepted but these guys dont like it i guess

The thread can be unaccepted afterwards if some new information or arguments come up. I can think of a few threads that concluded and closed only for a staff member to reopen the thread and the results get changed dramatically.

 

[Comicgyal]

How would they realistically scale with the lack of feats on that level? MFTL+ is not Massively Hypersonic or relativistic where the speed gaps aren’t that wide.

Because that’s just how their hierarchy works, the angels are separated by spiritual existence, meaning a third sphere has a lower existence than a second sphere. This is directly related to their power and attributes, which means that any Cardinal virtue or first sphere is on a higher existence than Irenic, which means their attributes are better.

Their halos are tied with their life energy and power, so while I acknowledge Irenic might not be fodder powerwise, he’s still much lower than other angels above him. You really can’t convince me that Aesir, the guy who surpasses time and space, is somehow slower than a messily first sphere, who he should be Infinitely stronger than by Bayonetta verse standards, and by Vs battle standards.

 

[Dienomite22]

Which is why I said let’s stop talking about the cars, and more about if she could scale to Irenic to begin with. I explained above that by their hierarchy standards, Bayonetta and first sphere angels+ would be realistically able to scale to Irenics top speed. I’ve explained that it’s speed is a special case by its lore entry, but in no means is it the only case.

But if we're getting rid of gameplay showings of Irenic then all that's left is the angelic spheres to sustain such a huge MFTL+ rating that also makes everyone in the verse trillions of times MFTL+.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The balder Pluto laser feat is NOT a casual feat, especially when we have seen him casually firing a normal shot as opposed to a full power shot, the former being when he hits Jeanne when ripping Bayo out of jubileus, and the latter being the laser beam to Pluto

No one is using the balder laser feat my dude. Mor eproof that you have no idea wtf is being talked about in this thread and are just disagreeing with it for the sake of disagreeing with it like you always do when it comes to this verse.

 

[Comicgyal]

But if we're getting rid of gameplay showings of Irenic then all that's left is the angelic spheres to sustain such a huge MFTL+ rating that also makes everyone in the verse trillions of times MFTL+.

It wouldn’t, only first spheres and above, so just a few other characters.

 

[Keeweed]

The gap between supersonic and MHS is the same as this yet there are people who are MHS with a **** ton of casual supersonic feats yet i dont see you trying to downgrade them. Its only a problem because its a verse you dislike, if this werent Bayonetta you wouldnt be making these ridiculous arguments.

Do those verses have the god tier preform the MHS feat or the low tier. If the low tier preformed the MHS feat then the feat can likely come into question. I’m currently trying to downgrade a verse right now that has a high 8-C character and causal 8-C feats. The 8-C feats are preformed by characters that instantly kill the high 8-C and the high 8-C has dozens of 9-A feats.

This is what I believe Bayonetta’s case to be, if the god tiers preformed the feat I wouldn’t have a problem with it. But it was the low tiers who did it and the high tiers are millions of times slower.

 

[Comicgyal]

Also even IF the halos would make a lot of characters MFTL+, what is wrong with that?? So many verses have so many characters at absurd speeds like immeasurable, or MFTL+ Bayonetta can receive that same luxury if it makes sense.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Do those verses have the god tier preform the MHS feat or the low tier. If the low tier preformed the MHS feat then the feat can likely come into question. I’m currently trying to downgrade a verse right now that has a high 8-C character and causal 8-C feats. The 8-C feats are preformed by characters that instantly kill the high 8-C and the high 8-C has dozens of 9-A feats.

This is what I believe Bayonetta’s case to be, if the god tiers preformed the feat I wouldn’t have a problem with it. But it was the low tiers who did it and the high tiers are millions of times slower.

We have tons of verses where the god tiers are upscaled from feats performed by fodder, yes

 

[EFÍTÉ]

Ok, why a bunch of feat that reaches the likes 1000C + would scale to a trillions of times FTL ?

How done casual or not does make you jump from hundreds of time FTL to Trillions.

Then again, Irenic's speed is special to him, nobody would scale, not even bayo does have a feat, which makes even more inconsistent with someone SCALLING, doesnt matter the hiearchy here, nobody as feats comparable to Irenic.

 

[EFÍTÉ]

Im sure if it went from Hundreds to like 100.000 FTL would be less scretchy and more acceptable to use.

 

[Keeweed]

Then show me those verses (at least one or two that immediately come to mind). I’ll either try to make CRTs for them or Question and Answer threads to sort out whether we should treat those feats as outliers.

 

[Dienomite22]

It wouldn’t, only first spheres and above, so just a few other characters.

Why first sphere and not only the dea or even audito? I'm not getting the connection as to why it starts at the first sphere?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Ok, why a bunch of feat that reaches the likes 1000C + would scale to a trillions of times FTL ?

How done casual or not does make you jump from hundreds of time FTL to Trillions.

Because those feats were performd casually whereas the trillions feat was performed with effort, that is how scaling works.

Then again, Irenic's speed is special to him, nobody would scale, not even bayo does have a feat, which makes even more inconsistent with someone SCALLING, doesnt matter the hiearchy here, nobody as feats comparable to Irenic.

Irenic's movement sped is fastr than anyone else in the verse, correct, hence why no one scales in movement speed, only reactions because they cant actively travel as fast as irenic can, only react to it

 

[Comicgyal]

Why first sphere and not only the dea or even audito? I'm not getting the connection as to why it starts at the first sphere

Irenic has the power of a first sphere (his halo) so it would start from there.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Staff-only stifles opinions and ruins the purpose of this thread, and a reminder please be civil everybody.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Currently fourstaff are for this revision while only one is against it if thats any indication so

 

[EFÍTÉ]

Because those feats were performd casually whereas the trillions feat was performed with effort, that is how scaling works.

Non responsive, didnt try to explain and argue why.

Someone reacting to Irenic never happened and scales to only himself.

Done casually or not is still a outlier.

 

[Theglassman12]

@WeeklyBattles So you're not gonna give me examples of these other verses that have these feats and resort to Appeal to Motive? Weekly you're the LAST PERSON ON THIS SITE to use that claim as there's far more evidence for you only downgrading verses through the fact that you dislike them more than anyone else on this site, give me examples of these verses that have one feat far higher than any other feats in the series. Also Supersonic to MHS is in the thousands of times gap, not the same as thousands to TRILLIONS OF TIMES FTL, that's in the billions of times range. Enough of the accusation and give me the scans now. And I do know what I'm talking about cause YOU keep mentioning the other MFTL feats as casual, Balder's pluto feat is one of them, the fact you don't know this proves the opposite. Also that's an appeal to popularity fallacy, saying staff members agree and nothing else isn't helping your case.

@Comicgyal not every verse functions the same, that's a false equivalence by saying "this verse has this rating so why not the other one here". Give examples instead of just say "this happened so this is legit".

 

[Comicgyal]

@Comicgyal not every verse functions the same, that's a false equivalence by saying "this verse has this rating so why not the other one here". Give examples instead of just say "this happened so this is legit".

I’m sorry, what do you mean by that exactly?