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Bayonetta revisions part 2

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Look, I think bayo is capable of keeping up with Irenic in base. I mean that much is obvious, she literally chases it without using witch time in game. However the amps just make the feat more believable, since some don’t agree that she’s capable of moving that fast in base.

The problem is the angels need to scale to her, and they can’t do so regularly without Amps, which is why we have to talk about it so much. The witch time change thread was not only
1. False, because there is stated proof that witch time is actual time manipulation
2. Causes holes in the logic

We can have bayo be relative to Irenic in base, while having the angels scale with amps. Also keeping in mind that with amps, Bayonetta can just upscale from Irenic.
 
Comicgyal said:
Look, I think bayo is capable of keeping up with Irenic in base. I mean that much is obvious, she literally chases it without using witch time in game. However the amps just make the feat more believable, since some don’t agree that she’s capable of moving that fast in base.

The problem is the angels need to scale to her, and they can’t do so regularly without Amps, which is why we have to talk about it so much. The witch time change thread was not only
1. False, because there is stated proof that witch time is actual time manipulation
2. Causes holes in the logic

We can have bayo bring relative to Irenic in base, while having the angels scale with amps. Also keeping in mind that with amps, Bayonetta can just upscale from Irenic.
Click to expand...
I can agree with this.

(Well, not the Witch Time being time manip part, but the rest)
 
ok given a conversation I had with comicygal I must now comment.

If bayo scales in base with no amps, it creates an issue. Angels were argued as comparable to irenic via temporal control. But if she is mftl+ while they are much slower naturally, she could blitz them or shoot them anytime before they use temporal control.

If she scales with amps, that issue doesnt exist.

This is an unfortunate consequence of the witch time crt. Also, removing amps entirely from angel is a big no, as temporal control being a speed amp is why it becomes harder to argue outlier.
 
Cyberblader90 said:
ok given a conversation I had with comicygal I must now comment.

If bayo scales in base with no amps, it creates an issue. Angels were argued as comparable to irenic via temporal control. But if she is mftl+ while they are much slower naturally, she could blitz them or shoot them anytime before they use temporal control.
Click to expand...
The angels were never argued as being comparable to irenic via temporal control though? The fight aginst Irenic is proof of that, they can react to bayo while riding on top of Irenic, theyre in the same vin as Bayo of having reaction and combat sped comparable to irenic's movement speed. And yes, she 10000% blitzs angls all the time, even the boss angels, watch literally any of her fights, literally the only rason they get the chance to put up any semblance of a fight is becaus she likes torturing them
 
I agree, however the discussion now changes to what angels are acceptable to scaling to her base? There isn’t an issue, if we stop trying to scale third sphere angels to Bayonetta in speed. Atleast in terms of run speed and all that, fodder angels can definitely react to Bayonetta, but she can still blitz them on occasion. Bayonetta loves to toy with the angels, remember that. Whenever they keep up with her is because she lets them, Kamiya himself said that she’s never trapped in those dimensional barriers, she just stays in there because she likes fighting.

However, if we can all agree that first spheres and above CAN scale to bayonettas base, which makes sense since angels like Joy(?) can quite literally copy her attributes.. then it’s okay, and she can scale in base (atleast in my opinion)
 
.......
Weekly, temporal control was argued in the last thread. It is literally the reason why the irenic argument returned as viable
 
Cyberblader90 said:
.......
Weekly, temporal control was argued in the last thread. It is literally the reason why the irenic argument returned as viable
Click to expand...
No? Its the reason why it was viable to argue that Irenic's movement speed is faster than Jubileus' and why fodder angels can be faster than Jubileus without amps
 
update:
the original thread opener would like to go with weekly's proposal. that is to say, bayonetta and other characters scale to irenic without amps, Combat and Reactions, not travel speed.
Temporal control to be treated as a speed boost on top of that.
 
@WeeklyBattles Then show me the clips of Irenic moving that fast if you’re so confident I don’t have the same information as you, or as you put it “played the same game”. Until you do you have no ground to stand on here.

also good job on taking one of Zephyros’ quotes out of context cause he did NOT say it was consistent, the wording heavily implies it’s not consistent at all. Especially his example of 1 million c to mach 32 feats.

Weekly riding on a CAR when fighting someone does NOT scale your reaction speed whatsoever. That’s the same logic as saying you fighting someone in a bullet train means you’re as fast as the bullet train in combat. That has no bearing on your own speed and you’re not even moving that fast.

So you’re arguing that they should be that fast without amps? You’re gonna need to prove A LOT of things to get the gods on the same level as Irenic in general speed. As cyber said, trying to not make it amps just makes it even harder to scale any of the god tiers to Irenic.
 
Hmm. I have noticed that Glass seems to have improved his analytical skills recently.
 
Antvasima said:
Hmm. I have noticed that Glass seems to have improved his analytical skills recently.
Click to expand...

Hat_Dance.gif
 
It was meant as a compliment. Improvements are good. You seem to be more helpful in threads that I visit nowadays.
 
Agreed. Do not overthink compliments. I am not very socially competent.
 
Theglassman12 said:
So you’re arguing that they should be that fast without amps? You’re gonna need to prove A LOT of things to get the gods on the same level as Irenic in general speed. As cyber said, trying to not make it amps just makes it even harder to scale any of the god tiers to Irenic.
Click to expand...
The fact that you think that anyone is arguing that anyone scales to irenic in general speed automatically debunks everything you just said. Its quite obvious that you have no idea what is being argued if you think that this revision is scaling anyones general speed to irenic. Please stop embarassing yourself by trying to discredit all of the work people have done by making arguments that are not being brought up in this thread yet dclaring yoursel right anyways, it is unbecoming of a staff member and a debater. Thank you.
 
Based on the logic we're currently using, this does make sense I think.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
The fact that you think that anyone is arguing that anyone scales to irenic in general speed automatically debunks everything you just said. Its quite obvious that you have no idea what is being argued if you think that this revision is scaling anyones general speed to irenic. Please stop embarassing yourself by trying to discredit all of the work people have done by making arguments that are not being brought up in this thread yet dclaring yoursel right anyways, it is unbecoming of a staff member and a debater. Thank you.
Click to expand...
"This is a continuation of the original crt.
The current subject is whether or not the irenic feat is consistent to scale to other characters. Discuss here"

Literally in the OP, what do you think this revision is for?

Also, don't be so condescending to Glass, he's being incredibly helpful here while you're busy twisting people's words. And this is from someone who agrees with you on this thread.
 
How the hell has this thread been going for so long? Anyway, after reading that mess of a thread, Weekly is the one who's making the most sense here, it's pretty clear cut to me.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Weekly riding on a CAR when fighting someone does NOT scale your reaction speed whatsoever. That’s the same logic as saying you fighting someone in a bullet train means you’re as fast as the bullet train in combat. That has no bearing on your own speed and you’re not even moving that fast.
Click to expand...
If you are riding on top of a bullet train and manage to shoot someone riding on a bullet train moving in the opposite direction going at the same speed yes you 100% would scale, you are both reacting to a target while being moved at subsonic speeds as well as reacting to a target thatis moving at subsonic speeds in the opposite direction. That is the definition of scaling.

Unless of course youre implying scaling to movement speed, but no one is arguing using movement sped here so...
 
ZephyrosOmega said:
Literally in the OP, what do you think this revision is for?
Click to expand...
It scaling combat and reaction speed. Not movement or travel speed speed. Combat Speed.
Cyberblader90 said:
update:
the original thread opener would like to go with weekly's proposal. that is to say, bayonetta and other characters scale to irenic without amps, Combat and Reactions, not travel speed.
Temporal control to be treated as a speed boost on top of that.
Click to expand...
 
Also, I'd appreciate it if both sides behaved and avoid using bold accusations against each other. No offense to you Weekly, and even agree with your side overall that it's uncontradictory for Bayonetta's combat speed, but in this instance, I saw more rudeness coming from you.

Also, the bullet train example depends on which direction one is facing. Clearly not movement speed, but combat speed or reacting to a bullet can be either more impressive less impressive than doing it on stable ground depending on direction.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
The stance that they dont scale in general movement speed? I mean everyone else agrees with that so thats cool i guess? Not really relevant to this revision but you do you man
Click to expand...
Number of agreement means nothing. Stop with this argument meant to discredit an argument without actually addressing it. It helps no-one and is disruptive to the actual point.
 
InfiniteDay said:
Number of agreement means nothing. Stop with this argument meant to discredit an argument without actually addressing it. It helps no-one and is disruptive to the actual point.
Click to expand...
When the quality of the counterargument is as bad as the current one is numbers matter a lot. Seeing as the current argument against this revision is something that literally no one has actually pushed for, the fact that everyone is for the revison and the people who arent arent even against it for reasons that are being proposed says a lot.
 
@Comicgyal I have yet to see anyone post any scans to prove that the angels or demons would have the same amps that bayo and balder has, like none at all, the only scan I remotely got is a clip of witch time deactivating and an angel moving normally, that's all I've seen in terms of proof for amps, which isn't helping the case as that's just witch time running out, also I even said in the discussion thread that I wanted to comment in the CRT, you guys went on and finished the thread by the time I was available, anyways.

@WeeklyBattles if you're going to just insult me and NOT give me scans at all then you're not helping your case at all. At this point I'd rather debate with Comicgyal than you cause unlike you, she actually has the courtesy to post scans or video clips on what happened to back her side up, especially when I ask for them. Also

You wanted to be lied to? Theyre becomming MFTL+ in genral reactions and combat speed, not via amps
Click to expand...

You just contradicted yourself by saying no one is arguing that but you also said that they WILL be on this level in general to InfiniteDay in your own words "it is unbecoming of a staff member and a debater", also this doesn't debunk everything I said, try and refute ALL of my points for once instead of tackling ONE out of the 4 points I made, especially about Zephyros' comment that you didn't bother explaining so you didn't debunk everything here.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Comicgyal I have yet to see anyone post any scans to prove that the angels or demons would have the same amps that bayo and balder has, like none at all, the only scan I remotely got is a clip of witch time deactivating and an angel moving normally, that's all I've seen in terms of proof for amps, which isn't helping the case as that's just witch time running out, also I even said in the discussion thread that I wanted to comment in the CRT, you guys went on and finished the thread by the time I was available, anyways.

@WeeklyBattles if you're going to just insult me and NOT give me scans at all then you're not helping your case at all. At this point I'd rather debate with Comicgyal than you cause unlike you, she actually has the courtesy to post scans or video clips on what happened to back her side up, especially when I ask for them. Also



You just contradicted yourself by saying no one is arguing that but you also said that they WILL be on this level in general to InfiniteDay in your own words "it is unbecoming of a staff member and a debater", also this doesn't debunk everything I said, try and refute ALL of my points for once instead of tackling ONE out of the 4 points I made, especially about Zephyros' comment that you didn't bother explaining so you didn't debunk everything here.
Click to expand...
I mean I could go try and find something, I just didn’t think we would need to bring proof that angels can amp themselves. The witch time thread is already confirmed proof that they can, and it was added to their profiles. Arguing whether they can, or cannot amp is meaningless at this point. Unless you want to reopen the witch time thread, and make changes.

Can’t do much about you not being available to comment in time.
 
Yeah no we already had that discussion to death and that thread has been posted over a dozen times when people have asked for proof, why you are continuing to ask for proof when its already been repeatedly posted is beyond my understanding
 
No one is saying it’s hard, but asking proof of amps from people who didn’t propose it in the first place.. well you’ll just have to be a bit more patient, but I’ll send some things now. Apologies for the delay.

"time slow," Here is one instance of the angels breaking out of witch time, which means they are effectively “amping” themselves to match Bayonettas speed. We know this because the background is still under witch time, but the Angel isn’t. Fodder btw.

Another example is the fight with Fortitudo, witch time is activated, however he’s moving at the exact same pace as Bayonetta. Meaning he was amping himself to match her speed too.
 
Comicgyal said:
No one is saying it’s hard, but asking proof of amps from people who didn’t propose it in the first place.. well you’ll just have to be a bit more patient,
Click to expand...
Yet it is an argument that's being used. The absolute least it's for you to be prepared to answer for it.
 
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