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Bayonetta revisions part 2

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the closer and closer Bayonetta gets to infinite speed.
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Dont agree with this part. I understand the rest of it though. I think glass should be allowed 1 last response, then we can apply?
 
@WeeklyBattles stop pretending these clips do not exist. Balder blatantly did this feat, not Jubileus, and I alreadty explained above that it's not casual, stop ignoring my comments like you constantly do in this entire thread. For a guy who keeps claiming I'm stonewalling you sure seem to like to ignore replying to the full conversation, or flat out ignore points I made that would weaken your side. Like my Zehpyros comment that you STILL did not address whatsoever. And you have barely proven that this feat is not casual at all, I have, so you have no ground here.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Yeah, I was on the Witch Time thread. There was an entire thread basically saying that Witch Time is a speed amplification rather than a time slow on the environment. And basically how it works is the stronger Witch Time reacts and develops, the closer and closer Bayonetta gets to infinite speed.

Fodder enemies are only faster than most God Tiers/protagonists in terms of flight speed, not combat speed. Most characters with true flight are regularly able to fly across the universe it seems. And the only real "Anti-feats" are more or less due to the lack of True Flight and not so much an anti feat for speed specifically. And to my knowledge, the context behind the low end Massively FTL+ feats is more or less the context of a character did a Low 6-B Earth shaking feat without even trying despite being scaled from a Universal feat.
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The infinite speed argument doesn't really work now considering it's based off a random dimension Irenic never travelled through and it's limitless in energy, not size. Not once is it ever mentioned that it has infinite size.

Literally only one angel in the entire verse has this feat, no one else, and the anti-feat in question is the balder laser feat. Something I already explained for the nth time is NOT a casual feat, the earth shaking feat has nothing to do with the speed downgrade argument so I don't know why you brought it up.
 
as an analogy it doesn't really work cause I explained the balder feat is done with effort, so it's not even a good comparison. It's one thing if Jubileus did the solar system travel feat and then had lore of travelling across paradiso. But it's a fodder tier feat that has this absurdly high feat compared to the god tier's feats that consistently go into the thousands of times FTL.
 
Agreed. We can go with what DDM proposed, and there’s more agreeing than disagreeing. So can we just apply it, or take another count? Incase some still are against it.
 
Not really², this may be your vision, let the reader have its own on this, there are way more posts with more argumentation

For now, I guess the Agrees are Weekly, Medeus and Comic, and the Disagrees are Glass and Cyber ?
 
Dante_Demon_Killah said:
Not really², this may be your vision, let the reader have its own on this, there are way more posts with more argumentation

For now, I guess the Agrees are Weekly, Medeus and Comic, and the Disagrees are Glass and Cyber ?
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Dude half the stuff Glass is using as an argument arent even things that are being argued for in this thread and the other half have been so thoroughly debunked that even Ant switched over to agreeing with the revision instead of disagreeing
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Dude half the stuff Glass is using as an argument arent even things that are being argued for in this thread and the other half have been so thoroughly debunked that even Ant switched over to agreeing with the revision instead of disagreeing
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Another post, same thing

Comicgyal said:
Cyber is pretty neutral I think ?
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Well maybe, we should make clear at this point so let's wait for him, I'm neutral aswell
 
The amount of unsubtle verse bias in this and other related threads is just ridiculous. I'm not going to mince words here because it pretty obvious even for a neutral observer like me that this just boils down to the frankly petty rivalry between the DMC supporters Vs the Bayonetta supporters and it needs to be nipped into the bud now.

Not saying we can't have our favourite verses and "friendly" rivalries (I mean I'm a Sonic supporter for Pete's sake) but when its the same handful of folks supporting DMC upgrades as well as Bayonetta downgrades and vice verse for another handful of folks supporting DMC downgrades/Bayonetta upgrades it just comes off as just contrived.

At this point I would prefer if both arguments (DDM and Glass) were decided by an actual neutral party since it pretty obvious some folks will always pick the side that favours their preferred verse. These kind of threads are partly the reason peeps are leaving the Wiki you know?

I know this is "staff discussion" and I know a few folks actually want both verses to be accurate and don't care about the "rivalry" but I felt my little rant/derail needed to be said since this constant snide point-scoring from both sides on this and on other threads needs to stop!
 
I'm more neutral but leaning towards agreeing with Irenic MFTL scaling solely because it's a Third Sphere angel with First Sphere Halos for wheels which sorta implies that its speed is because of its First Sphere Halo wheels which could logically be argued to make everything at that sphere and up scale.

But I also see why the scaling doesn't add up. Maybe a (current MFTL rating possibly/likely far higher insert Irenic speed's speed calc) could be a good compromise if needed?
 
Axiom is absolutely correct. A neutral party should decide, which is why we we summarized the main arguments a few comments ago.

For verses both created by the same person, you’d think the supporters would not be so worried about who is stronger than who..
 
Theglassman12 said:
The arguments for MFTL+ Irenic scaling. There's other MFTL feats in the verse done by god tiers, and bayonetta can react to irenic, and amps are a thing.

Arguments against MFTL+ Irenic scaling.
The feat in question is FAR HIGHER than what the god tiers are capable of doing, the god tiers have a roughly 400c feat, and an uncalced feat that highballed at BEST is 7000c, which isn't shown to be a casual feat unlike what Weekly said; especially when we have another showing of Balder doing a more casual shot against Jeanne here as opposed to what he did to nuke Pluto, while Irenic's feat is in the TRILLIONS of times FTL, making the gap far too wide for this feat to be remotely consistent. Also the whole "Bayonetta can react to Irenic" is iffy at best since there's no proof that Irenic's moving at top speed, and Bayonetta's only react to a normal flying car coming at her. The massive gap in speed feats, especially when the higher level is from a FODDER tier character as opposed to the god tiers who have consistent MFTL feats in the thousands of times FTL makes this feat scaling to be very iffy.
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Comicgyal said:
Alright sorry I’m late.

Arguments for MFTL+ speed scaling.

• All verse characters can amp themselves to absurd levels.

Due to the witch time thread, it has been accepted that the basically every character in the verse can amplify their speeds, but to save trouble I’ll send the main points here.

For the angels first amplifying feat, we have Bayonetta and Jeanne fighting atop of a falling plane. In this battle one Angel noticeably breaks free of Bayonettas Witch time, meaning that Angel “Amped” itself to match her speed. Another instance is during the fight with Fortitudo, where he also “Amps” himself to keep pace with Bayonetta, while her witch time is activated. (If the embedded timestamps don’t work, please let me know <3) This proves that the angels can indeed amp themselves, to a point where they can match the higher tiers in terms of speed.

What this means is, since the angels can amp themselves, as can Bayonetta and Balder, mostly everyone’s speed can be relative to one another. Therefore even if Irenics feat is trillions of times faster than the normal feats, it’s nothing out of the question for Bayonetta and some other characters to replicate. They don’t have to scale for flight speed (is that what you guys call it?) but combat speed and reactions is definitely accessible scaling. If you look at the last thread before this, scaling to Irenic via combat speed and reactions was previously accepted, which is why some of the pages have it added already.

• The inherent hierarchy, that makes Irenics feat nothing impressive

While some of the other feats pale in comparison to Irenic, this is actually for good reason. Irenics case as an Angel is very special, he was a messenger Angel that was created before history, tasked with spreading gods word around Paradiso. Which means Irenic naturally has to boast absurd speed feats, while some of the other angels do not. However, due to the angelic hierarchy, Irenic would pale in comparison to other characters.

To explain, Irenic is classified as a third sphere angel, but with first sphere halos. This means that Irenic has the spiritual existence, and power of a first sphere, since halos are representative of their power. The spiritual existence is also something to take note of. Angels that are first sphere have higher existences than a second sphere, and so on. Meaning that characters above Irenic in the hierarchy (The cardinal virtues, Jubileus, Rodin, Balder, Aesir, etc) are all much much more powerful than him, and therefore their attributes are better.

Angels and others above first spheres are by Bayonetta standards, and VSBW standards, infinitely more powerful than Irenic, with attributes that far exceeds it. In no way would it make sense that Aesir, a god who surpasses time and space, is fodder speed wise to a first sphere Angel. Every character simply upscales from Irenic, which I believe is the case for a few verses on this site, that upscales speed feats or other attributes from “Weaker” characters.

• Proposals

Bayonetta and characters on her level, can either have their profiles changed in a few ways. We can either keep the changes we have currently, which means some characters would scale in combat speed and reactions with amps. Or we can acknowledge that some characters would just be stronger and much faster than Irenic naturally, and upscale those higher tiered characters in all categories. Given what I explained about the hierarchy and the halos, it is again not unjustifiable that Jubileus, the god who created the verse and Irenic itself, would scale upwards from that speed feat.

His feat is just another, albeit more impactful, display of how angels can have absurd attributes given the sphere they belong in. It is less of an outlier, and more of a means to scale other characters without having them break the plot too drastically.
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Bumping this again for whatever mod looks over the crt.
 
If we're going to have a neutral part y look at it I would prefer if Glass' argument were actually accurate rather than using misleading claims and including stuff that isnt being talked about here, such as balder's laser feat and claiming that we're scaling everyone's running speed to irenic
 
I never once said you’re scaling the running speed to Irenic, quote me where did I say that. Second the fact you’re ignoring my reasoning for bringing up Balder’s feat shows how little you’re paying attention at this point.
 
Theglassman12 said:
I never once said you’re scaling the running speed to Irenic, quote me where did I say that. Second the fact you’re ignoring my reasoning for bringing up Balder’s feat shows how little you’re paying attention at this point.
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Dude your argument literally compares Jubileus' travel speed and Balder's laser speed to Irenic's movement speed

No one reacted to Balder's laser so theres no reason for you to bring it up
 
On a more serious note I 100% agree with Axiom here, the amount of bias against the verse here is nearly palpable and its genuinely embarrassing how much traction the opposition is getting with an argument that boils down to 'I dont agree with this revision, here are some unrelated feats and arguments that have nothing to do with it'
 
Weekly you are literally the worst person to ever be "calling out BS arguments" you have been perpetuating this thread with your attitude alongside Glass and to even deny that you had any fault like you always do is a level of denial I have never seen.

Any staff who actively accuses other members of stonewalling because they disagree is immature, and downright inexcusable for any staff.

You were demoted for a reason, seems you have forgotten that
 
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