Can I post in that thread?
The arguments for the downgrade are annoyingly bad.
I will leave the above two comments in place, but nobody else who does not already have permission to post here should not post here.
Why did you delete my comment if it did fit the requirements to be allowed in the thread?
-Valid arguments, evidence and constructive criticism from people familiar with the verse?
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Yhwach Sustaining The Worlds
And by this, I mean I disagree with him stabilizing them, at all. Reiatsu or not. I'm questioning just how much of the original post was read when making this counter argument, because this was already dealt with. The original post already addressed this argument, in length, about why Yhwach doesn’t sustain the worlds in the Bleach Cosmology. Look for yourselves:
No, we are told he is holding the worlds while fighting Ichigo by Ichibei.
“However, fortunately for the boy, Yhwach had completely obtained the power of the Soul King for himself, It is for this reason, even regardless of the fact that Kurosaki Ichigo had won, that the Soul Society was able to escape collapse in such a way.”
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Weakened Reio Fitting The New Stabilization Requirements
Requirement 2 is the only requirement in the new standards that Weakened Reio arguably fits in with, and even that's shaky as I will address in my response to Arc after this.
It is not mentioned “numerous times” that he sustains the worlds. It's mentioned ONCE, through a statement that’s open to more than one interpretation of what it means. Adding to that, if it’s said “numerous times”, then those numerous examples should be very easy to be gathered and SHOWN here. But the lack of evidence should be telling enough on this part of the argument.
That, and Warren just completely missed the points about the quincies and the official English translation from CFYOW stating point blank that the Soul King stabilizes the universal flow of souls.
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The worlds existed before the flow of souls, the soul king divided reishi from atoms and the soul current is there to maintain that without the linchpin being awake.
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Stabilization “Irrelevant” to the “Real” Scaling & other things
No offense, but this last part of Warren’s counters pretty much just says that everything in the original post wasn't entirely read. The original post literally acknowledged Reio’s creation feat, in the beginning and at the end, and we addressed it not mattering for the downgrade for 2 reasons. It's done with Almighty, which is a hax, and that the official translations for CFYOW’s details on the feat are not going to be made available for a couple months.
In Bleach all hax is still reiatsu based so not much of a point, also the translation says he did it with his extreme powers and not with Allmighty, which even if he did would scale to Ywach being able to do the same feat.
Then you have that Ichigo can be the linchpin too and he has no hax at all.
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
And on that note about the novel statement, a small reminder should be pointed out here that the "Cant Fear Your Own World" novel is considered secondary canon on this site. The manga for Bleach is the source material, and is 100% the primary canon source to be taking evidence from. The very fact that a novel statement about the worlds "likely crumbling immediately" comes from a source of lesser canonicity, and doesn't align with the depiction that the primary canon shows us, should be telling enough to everyone on both sides on why these statements have 0 bearing. And are ultimately irrelevant to use as a counter argument against this downgrade.
Except that CFYOW statement is about Ywach final attack and not the earthquake from the previous chapters.
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Counter-Point: “Reiatsu is the pressure of their level of energy, and thus, scales to their strength.”
This also isn’t enough to sustain this scaling to AP/Durability (not that it really matters). Even if the sustaining is done with Reiatsu, the fact that it’s being focused into sustaining the cosmology as proclaimed, would mean that the reiatsu when used for anything else isn't anywhere close to as strong and would need more evidence to prove that amount of power can be used all at once towards attack potency and durability. This is actually precisely why it’s outlined as a requirement in the new standards in the first place, since sustenance feats are assumed by default to not scale.
After all, if non god tiers are able to fight against and dispose of Yhwach’s and Reio’s Reiatsu when going against them, it becomes a fairly large anti feat against Reiatsu being used at Low 2-C levels when not used for sustenance due to these major inconsistencies. And these non god tiers includes a CHILD mind you.
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Except no, battles of spiritual beings are battles of reiatsu explicitly stated by Aizen and Zaraki, since reiatsu is literally reiryoku being used for something, a casual use of it will never be greater than a focused attack
Those gremlins are infinitesimal amounts of Ywach reiatsu at that point, so they only prove those low tiers can handle something weaker than they are (?
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Garganta Being Infinite
You all can re-read the very previous section as to why the size of the Garganta being infinite can fall under that. But I'm also just going to throw in this one small point because it's very interesting. Why is it that we reject Hueco Mundo being endless in size all because of someone wandering through a vastly big desert making that claim, but Garganta doesn't get scrutinized by that very same logic? How does Aura know it's infinite? She just wandered around inside of it to come to that conclusion? What's stopping us from just saying she says “infinite” because it's just a vast structure? The Garganta literally encompasses, what we now consider to be, entire universes. It's FAR FAR bigger than Hueco Mundo’s “endless” desert that you guys yourselves agreed on not making literally endless. It’s quite clearly a vast cosmic structure that's astronomically beyond what can be perceived, unless these guys can see things across interstellar distances all of a sudden. So what makes the Garganta different from Hueco Mundo? We shouldnt be accepting one as infinite for the exact opposite reason of why we don't consider the other endless.
Either way, Garganta isn't infinite, due to the things above and also solely from the fact that it's not accepted as infinite here. Otherwise, Bleach would be sitting at High 3-A as the bare minimum from the upgrades, not 3-A. Which means the infinite size statement wasn't accepted. If you disagree, get it in a new CRT to get it accepted. Officially.
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It's infinite because it is the void between all dimensions without space or time.
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
The argument of Uryu using the Antithesis to fire the arrow at Yhwach is headcanon. We know the Antithesis as a whole is a viable counter to the Almighty, but that hardly matters when there’s no direct evidence that Uryu did use Antithesis against Yhwach, especially when he couldn’t have used it against Yhwach.
The arrow worked because it's a portable Auschwalen which uses Ywach own powers against him.
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
n.
Reiryoku used for Stabilizing The Worlds
Okay, I’ll admit, I almost conceded to this point here but am still against it solely for 2 reasons.
First, the source of this statement. Where does this statement about the Soul King’s Reiryoku come from? What Novel? What chapter? I’ve read part of CFYOW myself and have not come across that, so i’d like a precise source of where this screenshot’s statement comes from to validate it source-wise please.
The second reason I am still against this idea of Reiryoku or Reiatsu used to stabilize the worlds is not just because of what the original post laid out for Yhwach, but also the ending of the Bleach manga conflicting with this. By the end of the manga, Yhwach’s Reiatsu gets destroyed completely. We see this happen when the Soul Society actively hunts down to dispose of Yhwach’s reiatsu, and Kazui Kurosaki removing the last remnants of it as confirmed by Aizen. Despite his reiatsu being removed, the worlds were completely unaffected by that. Why would that be the case if Reiatsu was used to stabilize the worlds?
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Because that's the reiatsu that remained from the fight, not the one used by the linchpin.
“…It cannot be helped. If you tell the truth you won’t be able avoid confusion and disorder”
After Kurosaki Ichigo had triumphed over Yhwach, his remains were transported to the Soul King Palace at the hands of Squad Zero soldiers. Hundreds of binding seals were placed around the corpse which still contained a vast amount of Reiryoku even after death, by storing it as the new lynchpin in the Soul King Greater Palace area, the world was spared from collapse.
The demise of the Soul King, as well as the fact that it is the mastermind of the great war who keeps the world tethered now, are both kept secret, the series of incursions by the Wandenreich was assigned the name “Protection of the Soul King Great War.”
“The Soul King Palace was safeguarded, and the Soul King was not assassinated… that’s what the students are being taught, I wonder if there were things that were falsified in this way within the history that we studied too.”
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“However, fortunately for the boy, Yhwach had completely obtained the power of the Soul King for himself, It is for this reason, even regardless of the fact that Kurosaki Ichigo had won, that the Soul Society was able to escape collapse in such a way.”
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Third Problem: HUGE Scaling Inconsistencies
The scalling does need a revision.
