BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[KingTempest]

u said the eyeballs were YH power and what did i say??

nowhere did i say that the eye monsters where YH but the soul king

I said the eyeballs were YH's power. You said otherwise. Sigurd said what's Reio's is Yhwach's now. Now it's Yhwach's power.
Power, the word you guys use for everything.

A little ass kid who can't even reach the top of the fridge destroyed Yhwach's power, which was Reio's power, which is supposed to be Tier 2.
???

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

KingTempest you literally have no idea what you’re talking about... You even think the Kazui scene and those monsters are the same scene.

 

[KingTempest]

KingTempest you literally have no idea what you’re talking about... You even think the Kazui scene and those monsters are the same scene.

When did I ever say that.

 

[Torsin]

You watch Naruto?
Naruto got the remnant of a bunch of energy demon's powers, they didn't get any weaker.

Ummmm what does this even prove? Naruto got half of the nine tails. He got a remnant of the full nine tails chakra. Full nine tails>Half Nine tails. After Naruto got the full chakra of the nine tails he got even stronger than he was before right?

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I said the eyeballs were YH's power. You said otherwise. Sigurd said what's Reio's is Yhwach's now. Now it's Yhwach's power.
Power, the word you guys use for everything.

A little ass kid who can't even reach the top of the fridge destroyed Yhwach's power, which was Reio's power, which is supposed to be Tier 2.
???

1. that those monster came before YH absorbed the soul king, u can see the SK still on the crystal while the monsters are appearing

https://********.org/chapter/942764/9

2. and he is right, after YH absorbs the soul king YH takes the power

3. idk where u are getting that remans/remains = full power out of that

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

By just reading your post. You legit have no idea what you’re talking about and don’t even understand the definition of Remnant.

Scene 1 : Yhwach absorbs the SK but the power is so much that he expelled some of it unto the Soul Society. You for some reason believe these creatures are tier 2.

Scene 2: Kazui dispels the remnants of Yhwach’s power that were in Soul Society after his defeat. The last bit of him that wasn’t collected and sent to the palace. You came to the conclusion that this small piece that Kazui dispelled is somehow tier 2 as well.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Lol now some dude comes into the thread arguing Dangai Ichigo is > EOS Ichigo. This is just amazing.

 

[KingTempest]

Ummmm what does this even prove? Naruto got half of the nine tails. He got a remnant of the full nine tails chakra. Full nine tails>Half Nine tails. After Naruto got the full chakra of the nine tails he got even stronger than he was before right?

I'm referring to the other 8 bijuu who he got remnants of their power. You completely misunderstood my argument.

1. that those monster came before YH even absorbed the soul king, u can see the SK still on the crystal while the monsters are appearing

https://********.org/chapter/942764/9

2. and he is right, after YH absorbs the soul king YH takes the remains

3. idk where u are getting that remans/remains = full power out of that

You know how tier 2 works right?
Low 2-C is infinite.
A fraction of infinity is still infinity.
You can't downscale or divide Low 2-C anything below Low 2-C. Even if it's 0.000000000000000001% of his power, it's still Low 2-C.

By just reading your post. You legit have no idea what you’re talking about and don’t even understand the definition of Remnant.

Scene 1 : Yhwach absorbs the SK but the power is so much that he expelled some of it unto the Soul Society. You for some reason believe these creatures are tier 2.

Can you give me a reason why things that are noted to be a person's power aren't scaling to them?
And read above for the consequences for Low 2-C.

Scene 2: Kazui dispels the remnants of Yhwach’s power that were in Soul Society after his defeat. The last bit of him that wasn’t collected and sent to the palace. You came to the conclusion that this small piece that Kazui dispelled is somehow tier 2 as well.

^

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I'm referring to the other 8 bijuu who he got remnants of their power. You completely misunderstood my argument.

You know how tier 2 works right?
Low 2-C is infinite.
A fraction of infinity is still infinity.
You can't downscale or divide Low 2-C anything below Low 2-C. Even if it's 0.000000000000000001% of his power, it's still Low 2-C.

and yet characters in fiction that are tier 2 or even above get seal and lose power even tho is "impossible cus infinity"

 

[Torsin]

I'm referring to the other 8 bijuu who he got remnants of their power. You completely misunderstood my argument.

I mean if Naruto would have got the full chakra of the other bijuu would'nt he be even stronger then?

 

[KingTempest]

and yet characters in fiction that are tier 2 or even above get seal and lose power even tho is "impossible cus infinity"

I said.
You can't get
Below tier 2
By dividing your power up.
You can get lower in tier 2, but you won't be 3 and below.

This isn't even a strawman, you just pulled up a random ass counter.

I mean if Naruto would have got the full chakra of the other bijuu would'nt he be even stronger then?

I'll bring it to your message wall, I doubt I have to explain why it's bad to have a Naruto discussion in a Bleach thread.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Oh boy, that’s enough of that for me.

 

[KingTempest]

Yall want someone to be Tier 2 but don't understand how Tier 2 works.

 

[Arcker123]

Low 2-C characters can suppress themselves

 

[KingTempest]

Low 2-C characters can suppress themselves

I haven't seen any who have shown it
Bleach hasn't shown it
So oof

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I think the real question is...

Why isn’t Kon Tier 2 yet? Dude is clearly the most powerful character in the verse

 

[Warren_Valion]

I'm not staff or an approved member, plus I'm not interested in typing walls of text to the opposition (if that sounded disrespectful Warren, I apologize). I'm just here to speak the little that I have to say.

Then why are you doing so here?

What I meant by what I said is that this isn't the CRT, stop arguing the contents of the CRT here.

There's a reason why I left after one comment, I don't want to continue discussing this topic, and you bringing it up the discussion here is running my peace of mind.

CRT contents should be left for CRTs.

The same can be said for all of you complaining about the thread.

If a regular member needs a staff member's approval to participate in a staff thread, I did give recommendations of a few members to join the thread, so some of you might be able to discuss this topic over there. I don't know if that is sufficient enough or true, but I tried all I could get a few more people into the conversation.


Whatever the case, I would very much prefer if you all would drop this topic.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

I think the real question is...

Why isn’t Kon Tier 2 yet? Dude is clearly the most powerful character in the verse

Don Kanonji

 

[Warren_Valion]

Don Kanonji

He's tier 1

 

[KingTempest]

Then why are you doing so here?

What I meant by what I said is that this isn't the CRT, stop arguing the contents of the CRT here.

There's a reason why I left after one comment, I don't want to continue discussing this topic, and you bringing it up the discussion here is running my piece of mind.

The same can be said for all of you complaining about the thread.

If a regular member needs a staff member's approval to participate in a staff thread, I did give recommendations of a few members to join the thread, so some of you might be able to discuss this topic over there. I don't know if that is sufficient enough or true, but I tried all I could get a few more people into the conversation.


Whatever the case, I would very much prefer if you all would drop this topic.

This is valid. I apologize for bringing it here.
It seems to me like the conversation is over though, at least in here.

 

[Hasch]

Can I post in that thread?

The arguments for the downgrade are annoyingly bad.

I will leave the above two comments in place, but nobody else who does not already have permission to post here should not post here.

Why did you delete my comment if it did fit the requirements to be allowed in the thread?

-Valid arguments, evidence and constructive criticism from people familiar with the verse?

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Yhwach Sustaining The Worlds

And by this, I mean I disagree with him stabilizing them, at all. Reiatsu or not. I'm questioning just how much of the original post was read when making this counter argument, because this was already dealt with. The original post already addressed this argument, in length, about why Yhwach doesn’t sustain the worlds in the Bleach Cosmology. Look for yourselves:

No, we are told he is holding the worlds while fighting Ichigo by Ichibei.


“However, fortunately for the boy, Yhwach had completely obtained the power of the Soul King for himself, It is for this reason, even regardless of the fact that Kurosaki Ichigo had won, that the Soul Society was able to escape collapse in such a way.”

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Weakened Reio Fitting The New Stabilization Requirements

Requirement 2 is the only requirement in the new standards that Weakened Reio arguably fits in with, and even that's shaky as I will address in my response to Arc after this.

It is not mentioned “numerous times” that he sustains the worlds. It's mentioned ONCE, through a statement that’s open to more than one interpretation of what it means. Adding to that, if it’s said “numerous times”, then those numerous examples should be very easy to be gathered and SHOWN here. But the lack of evidence should be telling enough on this part of the argument.

That, and Warren just completely missed the points about the quincies and the official English translation from CFYOW stating point blank that the Soul King stabilizes the universal flow of souls.
Click to expand...

The worlds existed before the flow of souls, the soul king divided reishi from atoms and the soul current is there to maintain that without the linchpin being awake.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Stabilization “Irrelevant” to the “Real” Scaling & other things
No offense, but this last part of Warren’s counters pretty much just says that everything in the original post wasn't entirely read. The original post literally acknowledged Reio’s creation feat, in the beginning and at the end, and we addressed it not mattering for the downgrade for 2 reasons. It's done with Almighty, which is a hax, and that the official translations for CFYOW’s details on the feat are not going to be made available for a couple months.

In Bleach all hax is still reiatsu based so not much of a point, also the translation says he did it with his extreme powers and not with Allmighty, which even if he did would scale to Ywach being able to do the same feat.

Then you have that Ichigo can be the linchpin too and he has no hax at all.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
And on that note about the novel statement, a small reminder should be pointed out here that the "Cant Fear Your Own World" novel is considered secondary canon on this site. The manga for Bleach is the source material, and is 100% the primary canon source to be taking evidence from. The very fact that a novel statement about the worlds "likely crumbling immediately" comes from a source of lesser canonicity, and doesn't align with the depiction that the primary canon shows us, should be telling enough to everyone on both sides on why these statements have 0 bearing. And are ultimately irrelevant to use as a counter argument against this downgrade.

Except that CFYOW statement is about Ywach final attack and not the earthquake from the previous chapters.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Counter-Point: “Reiatsu is the pressure of their level of energy, and thus, scales to their strength.”

This also isn’t enough to sustain this scaling to AP/Durability (not that it really matters). Even if the sustaining is done with Reiatsu, the fact that it’s being focused into sustaining the cosmology as proclaimed, would mean that the reiatsu when used for anything else isn't anywhere close to as strong and would need more evidence to prove that amount of power can be used all at once towards attack potency and durability. This is actually precisely why it’s outlined as a requirement in the new standards in the first place, since sustenance feats are assumed by default to not scale.

After all, if non god tiers are able to fight against and dispose of Yhwach’s and Reio’s Reiatsu when going against them, it becomes a fairly large anti feat against Reiatsu being used at Low 2-C levels when not used for sustenance due to these major inconsistencies. And these non god tiers includes a CHILD mind you.
Click to expand...

Except no, battles of spiritual beings are battles of reiatsu explicitly stated by Aizen and Zaraki, since reiatsu is literally reiryoku being used for something, a casual use of it will never be greater than a focused attack


Those gremlins are infinitesimal amounts of Ywach reiatsu at that point, so they only prove those low tiers can handle something weaker than they are (?

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Garganta Being Infinite
You all can re-read the very previous section as to why the size of the Garganta being infinite can fall under that. But I'm also just going to throw in this one small point because it's very interesting. Why is it that we reject Hueco Mundo being endless in size all because of someone wandering through a vastly big desert making that claim, but Garganta doesn't get scrutinized by that very same logic? How does Aura know it's infinite? She just wandered around inside of it to come to that conclusion? What's stopping us from just saying she says “infinite” because it's just a vast structure? The Garganta literally encompasses, what we now consider to be, entire universes. It's FAR FAR bigger than Hueco Mundo’s “endless” desert that you guys yourselves agreed on not making literally endless. It’s quite clearly a vast cosmic structure that's astronomically beyond what can be perceived, unless these guys can see things across interstellar distances all of a sudden. So what makes the Garganta different from Hueco Mundo? We shouldnt be accepting one as infinite for the exact opposite reason of why we don't consider the other endless.

Either way, Garganta isn't infinite, due to the things above and also solely from the fact that it's not accepted as infinite here. Otherwise, Bleach would be sitting at High 3-A as the bare minimum from the upgrades, not 3-A. Which means the infinite size statement wasn't accepted. If you disagree, get it in a new CRT to get it accepted. Officially.
Click to expand...

It's infinite because it is the void between all dimensions without space or time.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
The argument of Uryu using the Antithesis to fire the arrow at Yhwach is headcanon. We know the Antithesis as a whole is a viable counter to the Almighty, but that hardly matters when there’s no direct evidence that Uryu did use Antithesis against Yhwach, especially when he couldn’t have used it against Yhwach.

The arrow worked because it's a portable Auschwalen which uses Ywach own powers against him.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
n.

Reiryoku used for Stabilizing The Worlds
Okay, I’ll admit, I almost conceded to this point here but am still against it solely for 2 reasons.

First, the source of this statement. Where does this statement about the Soul King’s Reiryoku come from? What Novel? What chapter? I’ve read part of CFYOW myself and have not come across that, so i’d like a precise source of where this screenshot’s statement comes from to validate it source-wise please.

The second reason I am still against this idea of Reiryoku or Reiatsu used to stabilize the worlds is not just because of what the original post laid out for Yhwach, but also the ending of the Bleach manga conflicting with this. By the end of the manga, Yhwach’s Reiatsu gets destroyed completely. We see this happen when the Soul Society actively hunts down to dispose of Yhwach’s reiatsu, and Kazui Kurosaki removing the last remnants of it as confirmed by Aizen. Despite his reiatsu being removed, the worlds were completely unaffected by that. Why would that be the case if Reiatsu was used to stabilize the worlds?
Click to expand...

Because that's the reiatsu that remained from the fight, not the one used by the linchpin.

“…It cannot be helped. If you tell the truth you won’t be able avoid confusion and disorder”

After Kurosaki Ichigo had triumphed over Yhwach, his remains were transported to the Soul King Palace at the hands of Squad Zero soldiers. Hundreds of binding seals were placed around the corpse which still contained a vast amount of Reiryoku even after death, by storing it as the new lynchpin in the Soul King Greater Palace area, the world was spared from collapse.

The demise of the Soul King, as well as the fact that it is the mastermind of the great war who keeps the world tethered now, are both kept secret, the series of incursions by the Wandenreich was assigned the name “Protection of the Soul King Great War.”

“The Soul King Palace was safeguarded, and the Soul King was not assassinated… that’s what the students are being taught, I wonder if there were things that were falsified in this way within the history that we studied too.”
Click to expand...


“However, fortunately for the boy, Yhwach had completely obtained the power of the Soul King for himself, It is for this reason, even regardless of the fact that Kurosaki Ichigo had won, that the Soul Society was able to escape collapse in such a way.”

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Third Problem: HUGE Scaling Inconsistencies

The scalling does need a revision.

 

[Damage3245]

@Hasch; if you have valid arguments direct them towards Arc7 and others who already have permission to post on the thread. Not every single Bleach supporters who has something to say will be allowed to post on the thread.

Warren just made a post above saying "CRT contents should be left for CRTs." which I agree with.

 

[Hasch]

if you have valid arguments direct them towards Arc7 and others who already have permission to post on the thread. Not every single Bleach supporters who has something to say will be allowed to post on the thread.

Warren just made a post above saying "CRT contents should be left for CRTs." which I agree with.

That means arguing with Arc and Warren for them to change their arguments to then post that in the thread, it's a waste of time which burdens them with my argument.

I'm going from Kukui agreeing that

They made it staff-only because last time, it ended up a 14 page war. They’re allowing non-staff to enter the thread and discuss as long as they’re not disruptive or bias, and this was stated and explained on the OP and shown throughout the thread. They don’t even have to do that. I’m sure if you were polite you could discuss calmly, but acting disruptive is no way to get you into a thread, that’s ridiculous.



I just posted the novel quotes and manga pages that prove:
-Ywach was holding the worlds
-Doing so with his reiryoku
-Passive reiryoku being lesser than when conciously used and focused to attack someone

 

[Tyri456]

My question is:

How what he wrote to downplay Yhwach feat is relevant? he just used disbelief arguements.
All the post cover is the stability feats which isnt even relevant to what was upgraded with Yhwach.

"we do not know" "he cant be" "overtime"

lol.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

.

I will post ur arguments.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Isn't Kazui like actually zapping around the town a lot? Literally at the beginning of the chapter he's in the Vizard's hideout and then he's back in his room. Kazui if anything he's practically Goten.

Wait, doesn't the Vizard Hideout also possess a barrier that prevents people from breaking in or something? How did the supposed kid who can't even climb a fridge got into It?

 

[USklaverei]

I hope that in the end, we will climb Uryu for managing to hurt Yhwach

 

[AnonymousBlank]

So we basically got a kid who can blitz across town, bypass the barriers of Kido masters who casually use causality manip, sneak past a bunch of captain level Shinigami and blitz them all while still in his human form and even has the ability to manifest his Shinigami powers while still in his body which no one else has shown to do, which puts him bare minimum at the level of Ichigo with no powers right before Shattered Shaft who can tank Ururu’s punches.

I find it weird that people would ever try to use Kazui as an antifeat for Yhwach when he is so much more than a simple child.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I hope that in the end, we will climb Uryu for managing to hurt Yhwach

now that would be hilarious, they try to downgrade via uryu and instead he ends up getting an upgrade

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

So we basically got a kid who can blitz across town, bypass the barriers of Kido masters who casually use causality manip, sneak past a bunch of captain level Shinigami and blitz them all while still in his human form and even has the ability to manifest his Shinigami powers while still in his body which no one else has shown to do, which puts him bare minimum at the level of Ichigo with no powers right before Shattered Shaft who can tank Ururu’s punches.

I find it weird that people would ever try to use Kazui as an antifeat for Yhwach when he is so much more than a simple child.

also the fact that they try to say
remains/remans of power = full power

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

“Let’s wait for Imade” they said, “we will close the CRT until Imade replies” they said, “this way we can have all your initial counter arguments” they said. Well jokes on them I’m not able to respond for half a week anyhow.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Except Kazui has powers and he's around 4 to 7 or so. In anime isn't that a red flag for how OP the kid is and not how it somehow downgrades a entire verse? Kubo's intent is clearly to show how powerful Kazui is, not how weak everyone is

 

[Hasch]

The weirdest argument is that Ywach wasn't holding the worlds, because there was no eartquake when he was killed.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

@TOAAPRESENCE1
On god. I don’t even know how this reasoning could be misconstrued to the point one thinks it’s somehow valid.

I do find it weird that on the downgrade, they say that being 4d doesn’t mean you are inherently beyond infinite 3D but King Tempest is saying it’s does make you beyond infinitely stronger.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The weirdest argument is that Ywach wasn't holding the worlds, because there was no eartquake when he was killed.

I can tell you that’s blatantly false because the manga says otherwise. Also Yhwach never died as per the novels.

Why are they allowed to talk on Bleach if they don’t know it? For such a massive CRT they certainly aren’t fact checking their selves..

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Why are they allowed to talk on Bleach if they don’t know it? For such a massive CRT they certainly aren’t fact checking their selves..

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Reminder that Bleach Hub would be streaming the Thread sometimes

 

[Hasch]

I will post ur arguments.

Thanks, I really appreciate it.

I can tell you that’s blatantly false because the manga says otherwise. Also Yhwach never died as per the novels.

Why are they allowed to talk on Bleach if they don’t know it? For such a massive CRT they certainly aren’t fact checking their selves..

The entire argument holds on a few things

-Disputing that conscious and focused use of reiatsu for attack or defense would be stronger than unconsciously using reiryoku to balance the worlds.
-Somehow Ywach not scaling to the characters whose power he stole and feats he partially reproduced, while also disregarding statements that his final attack was just at the edge of fusing the worlds again because it's "secondary canon" despite the novel being co-authored by the manga's author to explain what happened in the end.
-Uryu shot Ywach, even tho it was a special DEM weapon designed to beat Ywach.

 

[Snoke123]

why are there people, who still believe in this shit of "flow of souls" that has been refuted for a long time?

 

[Ovy7]

So we basically got a kid who can blitz across town, bypass the barriers of Kido masters who casually use causality manip, sneak past a bunch of captain level Shinigami and blitz them all while still in his human form and even has the ability to manifest his Shinigami powers while still in his body which no one else has shown to do, which puts him bare minimum at the level of Ichigo with no powers right before Shattered Shaft who can tank Ururu’s punches.

I find it weird that people would ever try to use Kazui as an antifeat for Yhwach when he is so much more than a simple child.

Not to mention that said 6yo kid has a full Zanpaku-to (i.e. not an Asauchi) and likely Fullbring powers going by how he instantly materialized his Shinigami cloak in the same way as Fullbring Ichigo Stage 2.