BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[Ssr4vegito]

Ichigo's potential is great, but given almost 6x the time, who wouldn't other characters shown to be prodigies be able to close that gap? Also what suggests that none of them are the equals of pre-hogyoku Aizen?

CFYOW where Tokinada couldn't use KS on the level of Aizen and same for Ryu jin Jakka. Aizen should be comparable to Yama on reiatsu.

In TYBW Ukitake is implied to have highest reiatsu in the room that Included post RG Byakuya, Rukia, Renji , Kisuke etc.. which he has exceptional for a Captain (basically above average captain level) Aizen and Ichigo had twice of a captain

Also Isshin whom this wiki rares as comparable to Aizen couldn't sense cocoon Aizen sp i don't see how weaker characters should.

 

[Ssr4vegito]

u can't really use the balance theory cause we don't know enough about how it works

That's why i said if you wanna use it

 

[SilentBob34]

I'm talking about Orihime's physical capabilitues. Her abilities are God like no doubt about that. The only known boost Orihime had was training for sometime in Hueco mundo. Idk about emotional boosts.

So you’re just gonna ignore what I just said? Emotion plays a huge part in Bleach characters with prime examples being Ginjo in CFYOW and Ichigo when he was emotionally unstable throughout his entire time after fighting Ulquiorra until his Dangai training. So how wouldn’t Orihime get an emotional boost when from since the time she got her powers she wanted to protect Ichigo but every instance she was with him she couldn’t?

It literally shows a panel of when he fought Byakuya and Grimmjow and she was there for both fights but had to stay out of them. Then he says in the biggest fight of the manga that he wants her to fight with him and protect him and she is insanely happy about that. I’m starting to doubt you really understand anything about the manga

 

[ThitOneGuy]

CFYOW where Tokinada couldn't use KS on the level of Aizen and same for Ryu jin Jakka. Aizen should be comparable to Yama on reiatsu.

In TYBW Ukitake is implied to have highest reiatsu in the room that Included post RG Byakuya, Rukia, Renji , Kisuke etc.. which he has exceptional for a Captain (basically above average captain level) Aizen and Ichigo had twice of a captain

Also Isshin whom this wiki rares as comparable to Aizen couldn't sense cocoon Aizen sp i don't see how weaker characters should.

Tokinada is also weaker than the captains he was fighting.

Ukitake's reiatsu being exceptional doesn't say anything in regards to how he compares to Aizen and Ichigo, because exceptional and above average aren't the same. Ukitake has unquantifiably more reiatsu than any other captain alive. His reiatsu isn't compared to Ichigo or Aizen, and is being constantly suppressed by his disease.

Because they aren't weaker. Tokinada, someone weaker than the captains he fought in CFYOW, and Ukitake, who has more reiatsu than any living captain, but whose reiatsu isn't measured in comparison to Ichigo or Aizen, aren't enough to say that base Aizen>TYBW characters. Especially not when Muken Aizen is stated to be stronger than when he fought Ichigo, and Ichigo is stated to have regained his power both by reliable sources.

 

[geezis]

Aizen should be comparable to Yama on reiatsu.

Aizen can't even sense yama's full power and even admitted he underestimated him multiple times and would've died to ennetsu jigoko, while yama was able to tank the entire attack and hit aizen with hado 96 . So I think not. also aizen thought wonderweiss could've beat yama without ryujin jakka.

 

[Ssr4vegito]

Tokinada is also weaker than the captains he was fighting.

Ukitake's reiatsu being exceptional doesn't say anything in regards to how he compares to Aizen and Ichigo, because exceptional and above average aren't the same. Ukitake has unquantifiably more reiatsu than any other captain alive. His reiatsu isn't compared to Ichigo or Aizen, and is being constantly suppressed by his disease.

Because they aren't weaker. Tokinada, someone weaker than the captains he fought in CFYOW, and Ukitake, who has more reiatsu than any living captain, but whose reiatsu isn't measured in comparison to Ichigo or Aizen, aren't enough to say that base Aizen>TYBW characters. Especially not when Muken Aizen is stated to be stronger than when he fought Ichigo, and Ichigo is stated to have regained his power both by reliable sources.

I don't quite get what you mean. Ukitake doesn't have Aizen level reiatsu. Tokinada has reiatsu comparable to Byakuya and Yoruichii. Yet he can't replicate KS or Ryu jin jakka on Aizen's or Yama's level. My only point was that if Isshin who is comparable to pre hogyoku Aizen couldn't sense Aizen the i don't see how eaker characters can
Also a small detail. Yhwach saud he was the only Quincy that could handle Yama's bankai that means he should have the skill and reiatsu to do so. So no other Quincy can and the only person other than Yhwach and Ichibei who has comparable reiatsu to Yama is Aizen.

 

[Ssr4vegito]

Aizen can't even sense yama's full power and even admitted he underestimated him multiple times and would've died to ennetsu jigoko, while yama was able to tank the entire attack and hit aizen with hado 96 . So I think not. also aizen thought wonderweiss could've beat yama without ryujin jakka.

It was never stated Aizen couldn't sense Yama's power. Aizen was afraid of Yama's Zanpakuto so he sealed it away. Yama also likely had superior combat power to beat Aizen. If we go by CFYOW powerscaling Aizen could easily use KS on Yama without much issues. Iirc It's stated in the novel that with superior reiatsu it was possible for the shikai itself of the KS to be sealed or something like that .

 

[geezis]

It was never stated Aizen couldn't sense Yama's power. Aizen was afraid of Yama's Zanpakuto so he sealed it away. Yama also likely had superior combat power to beat Aizen. If we go by CFYOW powerscaling Aizen could easily use KS on Yama without much issues. Iirc It's stated in the novel that with superior reiatsu it was possible for the shikai itself of the KS to be sealed or something like that .

do you think yama knew that he could seal KS, because I don't so I think if he knew he could because he has superior reiatsu

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Oh yeah PSK level God Aizen has 0 chance of getting passed on wiki. Especially when we take the lower end interpretation of statements, and PSK God Aizen comes from interpreting his statement in the highest way possible. Like when you take time to think about it, there’s no way you can rationalize God Aizen scaling above SK Yhwach, without blatantly ignoring statements and feats.

 

[Ssr4vegito]

do you think yama knew that he could seal KS, because I don't so I think if he knew he could because he has superior reiatsu

Yama is thousads of year old Shinigami. So he should possibly know how to do it. Also about Yama's reiatsu being superior i think we should wait till hell arc for more info cause it seems like there's some things that we could get about pre hogyoku Aizen's reiatsu.

 

[ThitOneGuy]

I don't quite get what you mean. Ukitake doesn't have Aizen level reiatsu. Tokinada has reiatsu comparable to Byakuya and Yoruichii. Yet he can't replicate KS or Ryu jin jakka on Aizen's level. My only point was that if Isshin who is comparable to pre hogyoku Aizen couldn't sense Aizen the i don't see how eaker characters can
Also a small detail. Yhwach saud he was the only Quincy that could handle Yama's bankai that means he should have the skill and reiatsu to do so. So no other Quincy can and the only person other than Yhwach and Ichibei who has comparable reiatsu to Yama is Aizen.

What exactly says he doesn't? Comparable reiatsu quantity isn't the same as having equally strong reiatsu. Isshin was stronger than them before they spent 17 months training. Ichigo is stated to have regained his power by Ywhach, and Kisuke says that Muken Aizen is stronger than when he fought Ichigo. So we have 2 reliable sources that say they're stronger than before, while there's only Tokinada not being Aizen's equal with KS, which can also mean that relative to who he was fighting he doesn't overwhelm their reiatsu, and Ukitake not being stated to be on their level.

Aizen is weaker than Yama, and Yama with 1 arm isn't weaker than with 2, meaning he also trained in those 17 months.

 

[AppleLord]

I wonder if Ichibei and Oetsu know and can counter KS.

 

[Ssr4vegito]

Oh yeah PSK level God Aizen has 0 chance of getting passed on wiki. Especially when we take the lower end interpretation of statements, and PSK God Aizen comes from interpreting his statement in the highest way possible. Like when you take time to think about it, there’s no way you can rationalize God Aizen scaling above SK Yhwach, without blatantly ignoring statements and feats.

Well unmasked stared he became a replacement for Reio which could be just be interpreted as him becoming someone who takes the place of Reio as God/Ruler. I don't think it just states his power level as same SK. But doesn't feel like he should scale a weaer Reio either.

 

[Ssr4vegito]

I wonder if Ichibei and Oetsu know and can counter KS.

Ichibei could possibly negg it atleast pre hogyoku Aizen's. Oetsu knows the location of his asuachis he may or may not be able to counter it.

 

[Ssr4vegito]

What exactly says he doesn't? Comparable reiatsu quantity isn't the same as having equally strong reiatsu. Isshin was stronger than them before they spent 17 months training. Ichigo is stated to have regained his power by Ywhach, and Kisuke says that Muken Aizen is stronger than when he fought Ichigo. So we have 2 reliable sources that say they're stronger than before, while there's only Tokinada not being Aizen's equal with KS, which can also mean that relative to who he was fighting he doesn't overwhelm their reiatsu, and Ukitake not being stated to be on their level.

Aizen is weaker than Yama, and Yama with 1 arm isn't weaker than with 2, meaning he also trained in those 17 months.

Aizen is stated have large and powerful reiatsu.

Ukitake is only stated to have exceptional for a captain. While there is statement about Aizen and Ichigo's being twice that of a captain.

Also i was talking about sensing Transcended beings. If Isshin couldn't sense Cocoon Aizen then i don't see how Renji, Rukia and Byakya should be able to sense it. Considering they're weaker.

 

[ThitOneGuy]

Aizen is stated have large and powerful reiatsu.

Ukitake is only stated to have exceptional for a captain. While there is statement about Aizen and Ichigo's being twice that of a captain.

Also i was talking about sensing Transcended beings. If Isshin couldn't sense Cocoon Aizen then i don't see how Renji, Rukia and Byakya should be able to sense it. Considering they're weaker.

Ukitake's reiatsu is unquantifiably higher than any other captain alive. There is genuinely nothing about that statement you can use to scale him above or below Aizen. Ukitake is a complete non-point.

Because they're stronger than pre-ts Isshin now.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Well unmasked stared he became a replacement for Reio which could be just be interpreted as him becoming someone who takes the place of Reio as God/Ruler. I don't think it just states his power level as same SK. But doesn't feel like he should scale a weaer Reio either.

It also can be interpreted as he become replacement for WSK.

 

[Ssr4vegito]

You can't use that. If Ukitake's was higher or equal ot would be stated. Aizen's actually stated to atleast 2X same goes for Ichigo. Tokinada wasn't able to replicate KS or Yama's shikai properly because he was weaer than them. Aizen could use KS on Yama without any Issues. That means he has comaparable reiatsu to Yama.

 

[Ssr4vegito]

It also can be interpreted as he become replacement for WSK.

I din't think Aizen would want to be a battery fir keeping the balance. Aizen became wanted to repplace SK as God.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I din't think Aizen would want to be a battery fir keeping the balance. Aizen became wanted to repplace SK as God.

What does it have to do with Aizen? It's from databook it's upto Kubo to describe which version level of SK Aizen had reached. It's nowhere states he becomes prime SK level even we are not sure SK Yhwach is on PSK level or not.

 

[ThitOneGuy]

You can't use that. If Ukitake's was higher or equal ot would be stated. Aizen's actually stated to atleast 2X same goes for Ichigo. Tokinada wasn't able to replicate KS or Yama's shikai properly because he was weaer than them. Aizen could use KS on Yama without any Issues. That means he has comaparable reiatsu to Yama.

Ukitake is unquantifiably higher than any living captain. Show me where it's stated that he has less reiatsu then Aizen and Ichigo.

Yama got stronger over the timeskip, as did everyone else. KS works based off of how much reiatsu you have relative to who you're targeting. In FKT, Aizen had way more than anyone else, thus nobody could resist it. In CFYOW, Tokinada doesn't have more than his opponents who all trained for 17 moths after the Aizen fight.

Nothing you've said is solid enough, meanwhile Kisuke outright says that Aizen is stronger now than when he fought Ichigo, and Ywhach says Ichigo regained the power he lost, both of which are solid statements from reliable sources that say that Dangai Ichigo isn't stronger than TS Ichigo.

 

[Ssr4vegito]

I don't think SK Yhwach is on PSK level. There are still lot of SK parts there for him to absorb.

Aizen became a replacement for Reio. A being on the level of Godhood. You don't need to necessarily scale him to PSK but i don't think Unmasked is referring him reaching WSK level in power, just that he has become being who can replace the Reio as God.

 

[ThitOneGuy]

I don't think SK Yhwach is on PSK level. There are still lot of SK parts there for him to absorb.

Aizen became a replacement for Reio. A being on the level of Godhood. You don't need to necessarily scale him to PSK but i don't think Unmasked is referring him reaching WSK level in power, just that he has become being who can replace the Reio as God.

In order to be able to replace Reio you need to be at least as strong as WSK. Reio holds the Bleach verse together with his power. To replace him you need to be able to do the same

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Well unmasked stared he became a replacement for Reio which could be just be interpreted as him becoming someone who takes the place of Reio as God/Ruler. I don't think it just states his power level as same SK. But doesn't feel like he should scale a weaer Reio either.

Especially when we take the lower end interpretation of statements, and PSK God Aizen comes from interpreting his statement in the highest way possible.

 

[Ssr4vegito]

Ukitake is unquantifiably higher than any living captain. Show me where it's stated that he has less reiatsu then Aizen and Ichigo.

Yama got stronger over the timeskip, as did everyone else. KS works based off of how much reiatsu you have relative to who you're targeting. In FKT, Aizen had way more than anyone else, thus nobody could resist it. In CFYOW, Tokinada doesn't have more than his opponents who all trained for 17 moths after the Aizen fight.

Nothing you've said is solid enough, meanwhile Kisuke outright says that Aizen is stronger now than when he fought Ichigo, and Ywhach says Ichigo regained the power he lost, both of which are solid statements from reliable sources that say that Dangai Ichigo isn't stronger than TS Ichigo.

Is it actually stated Yama got stronger over timeskip. I thought he reached his level cap and list an arm as well. I think i saw somewhere that he was weaker than before.

If Ukitake is stated to have twice the reiatsu of a Captain kubo would've stated so. Kubo explicitily stated it for Aizen and Ichigo.


About the TS Ichigo regaining the power if Dangai. I think is just a panel taken out of context. He's probably talking about how Ichigi regained the spiritual powers he lost against Aizen during the Ginjo fight. You can literally see Ginjo on that panel.

 

[Ssr4vegito]

In order to be able to replace Reio you need to be at least as strong as WSK. Reio holds the Bleach verse together with his power. To replace him you need to be able to do the same

How does that contradict mine. I said ButterflAizen is far stronger than WSK. Also you need to be a hybrid transceded being as well as far as i know.

 

[Deceived3596]

cringe convo

 

[ThitOneGuy]

Is it actually stated Yama got stronger over timeskip. I thought he reached his level cap and list an arm as well. I think i saw somewhere that he was weaker than before.

If Ukitake is stated to have twice the reiatsu of a Captain kubo would've stated so. Kubo explicitily stated it for Aizen and Ichigo.


About the TS Ichigo regaining the power if Dangai. I think is just a panel taken out of context. He's probably talking about how Ichigi regained the spiritual powers he lost against Aizen during the Ginjo fight. You can literally see Ginjo on that panel.

It's stated that Yama isn't weaker in one of the databook scans that Arc has posted before, and as we know, using 2 hands is a big amp in Bleach, so Yama must be stronger now than before, in terms of reiatsu.

Proof, or is this an assumption?

It's a good thing that wasn't the only piece of evidence I had then. Muken Aizen is stated to be stronger than when he fought Ichigo, and he isn't able to physically overpower SK Ywhach the way TS Ichigo could. So TS Ichigo>/=SK Ywhach>Muken Aizen>Monster Aizen. True Shikai Ichigo is in the same tier as Dangai Ichigo.

 

[ThitOneGuy]

How does that contradict mine. I said ButterflAizen is far stronger than WSK. Also you need to be a hybrid transceded being as well as far as i know.

You said the databook wasn't referring to him reaching WSK levels of power.

 

[Ssr4vegito]

It's stated that Yama isn't weaker in one of the databook scans that Arc has posted before, and as we know, using 2 hands is a big amp in Bleach, so Yama must be stronger now than before, in terms of reiatsu.

Proof, or is this an assumption?

It's a good thing that wasn't the only piece of evidence I had then. Muken Aizen is stated to be stronger than when he fought Ichigo, and he isn't able to physically overpower SK Ywhach the way TS Ichigo could. So TS Ichigo>/=SK Ywhach>Muken Aizen>Monster Aizen. True Shikai Ichigo is in the same tier as Dangai Ichigo.

If using 2 hands is a big amp then shouldn't Yama be weaker than before?

Not an assumption.

Well about that panel some translations say Aizen got stronger since his fight against Ichigo. It could be just that he got stronger as his shinigami form cause the last time we saw him he lost his powers and got sealed. I will have to translate the raws better.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Yama is thousads of year old Shinigami. So he should possibly know how to do it.

no matter how old he is, he cant deal with something he has no knowledge on, no 2 swords are the same and aizen went out of his way to keep the counters of KS and the real powers under warps except for gin who he wanted to know how he would betray him

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

If using 2 hands is a big amp then shouldn't Yama be weaker than before?

Not an assumption.

Well about that panel some translations say Aizen got stronger since his fight against Ichigo. It could be just that he got stronger as his shinigami form cause the last time we saw him he lost his powers and got sealed. I will have to translate the raws better.

except that they never really fought when he was a shinigami, the only time they really fought was when he became a butterfly and a monster and the only one that saw monster aizen was kisuke

 

[Ssr4vegito]

I said Databook could be referrig to him becoming replacement for reio as God. My argument was TS Ichigo is weaker Dangai . So if TS Ichigo is powerful enough to replace SK as a battery. Then Butterflaizdn should scale above it

 

[ThitOneGuy]

If using 2 hands is a big amp then shouldn't Yama be weaker than before?

Not an assumption.

Well about that panel some translations say Aizen got stronger since his fight against Ichigo. It could be just that he got stronger as his shinigami form cause the last time we saw him he lost his powers and got sealed. I will have to translate the raws better.

Not if he trained to make up the difference. He'd have more reiatsu, and less ability to use it, as he's lacking an arm and therefore a vent.

So quantify Ukitake's reiatsu or otherwise prove it to be less than FKT Aizen's.

That wouldn't be his fight with Ichigo, as the fight had already ended by then.

 

[Ssr4vegito]

except that they never really fought when he was a shinigami, the only time they really fought was when he became a butterfly and a monster and the only one that saw monster aizen was kisuke

I din't think you undeestand. Aizen lost his powers and returned to his shinigami form and the end of his battle against Ichigo. That's why Kisuke saud he got stronger 'since' his battle against Ichigo. IDK which is proper translation tho.

 

[geezis]

He'd have more reiatsu, and less ability to use it, as he's lacking an arm and therefore a vent.

that clarifies it for me thx

 

[Ssr4vegito]

Not if he trained to make up the difference. He'd have more reiatsu, and less ability to use it, as he's lacking an arm and therefore a vent.

So quantify Ukitake's reiatsu or otherwise prove it to be less than FKT Aizen's.

That wouldn't be his fight with Ichigo, as the fight had already ended by then.

IDK Yama might've already reached his level cap. What about Unohana? Does she train too.

Ukitake's reiatsu is only said to to be exceptional. The only thing i can get from that is above Average.

 

[geezis]

IDK Yama might've already reached his level cap. What about Unohana? Does she train too.

Ukitake's reiatsu is only said to to be exceptional. The only thing i can get from that is above Average.

i dont think unohana trained but i might be wrong about that

 

[ThitOneGuy]

IDK Yama might've already reached his level cap. What about Unohana? Does she train too.

Ukitake's reiatsu is only said to to be exceptional. The only thing i can get from that is above Average.

She probably trained her Kaido, which would also boost her reiatsu. We never actually see anyone confirmed to be at their limit. Aizen claims he's reached it, but also doesn't seem to have mastered Kido.

Exceptional and more than any other captain is blatantly more than above average. Average would be the level of characters like Soi Fon, above average would be characters like Byakuya. Ukitake is stated to have more than any living captain. His reiatsu is unquantifiably higher than all living TYBW captains. Nothing supports your claim of it being less than FKT Aizen's

 

[Ssr4vegito]

If Ukitake's was on Aizen's level it would've been stated so. Like his reiatsu is 2X of a captain or something like that. Ukitake's reuatsu is certainly above captains. If i were to put it an averags captain is 5 then Ukitake would be 8 and Aizen would be 10. I don't see anything that supports Ukitake is Aizen level reiatsu either other than Renji's statement of them training to fight enemies on the level of Aizen.

I think Aizen was talking about reaching his liits as a shinigami during Isshin fight. He grew stronger in Muken.

Also going by the whole hell chapter doesn't that imply Aizen has the highest reiatsu in the series? Piowerful enough to balance out hell