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BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

Benet said:
Seth said somewhere in twitch that the end of the fight will be like ichigo looks back and Naruto is in baryon mode and the screen goes blank
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Naruto dies while Ichigo just stands there looking at him? Baryon Mode only works by connecting both opponents through chakra and allows Naruto to cut their life span. Assuming chakra is the same as Reiryoku, Ichigo is a soul which life spans will be beyond 2,000+ years old. Ootsutsuki are at least 1,000 years old (Kaguya) and Naruto was almost tired and Kurama died against Isshiki Ootsutsuki. Ichigo will out last Naruto’s Baryon Mode. Ichigo is no longer connected to his human body as Urahara cut his chain off meaning he is human as Isshin could be called a human.
 
Yomi_Schwarz said:
Since recent convos included naruto, I wanted some input on this.

Thoughts on the equalization of Chakra and Reiatsu?
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Reiatsu would be what Hashirama did to stop his brother in front of Orochimaru and Sasuke. How are you going to equalize pressure to chakra I do not know.
 
What kind of power is this for Ichibei? He can ink the manga page?!

Klub Kubo answer….
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I have a vague sense of where I think he’ll place Naruto and Ichigo based on the fact he thinks they’re relative.

You can use novel statements of Shinobi travel speed to find distances and use the map + view of Naruto’s earth to actually calculate a planet size. To my knowledge, I think it can get around 11x as big (in radius) as our planet. Which means that for the God Tree calc it’s traveling ~11x the distance in the same time (aka ~121x the kinetic energy). This would place the God Tree calc well within 5-A and potentially even High 5-A. To which Naruto would scale to or above that Madara. If Seth has Juubidara at up to High 5-A, all of a sudden High 4-C Kaguya doesn’t sound so far-fetched. So, I could see Seth putting peak Shippuden Naruto at around that High 4-C range (maybe even 4-B if you wank Kaguya’s feat a bit). Then for speed I know Seth has used the 72x FTL KCM Naruto calc, there’s the ~500x FTL Edo Madara meteor calc, and he’s brought up a “calc stacking” meta where Naruto amped thousands of people to 3x Kakashi level (Kakashi being ~FTL for reacting to water bullet which had the databook LS statement) and then saying Naruto is like ~3000x if not more Kakashi’s speed (MFTL+). I don’t think universal Naruto will be mentioned because I don’t think Seth buys universal Bleach. I’m going to guess Naruto will be in that star range with at least MFTL speeds.

For Ichigo it’s super easy to get him in the 5-A range (hell we even do that here), but it’s actually just as easy to get Ichigo to High 5-A using databook statements and extremely reasonable stated multipliers (a little bit of a multiplier stack potentially). However, in MoN there’s a kido cannon that can destroy the Kyogoku and it’s connecting dimension (which very likely has a star based on the blue sky and Mayuri’s diagram), which would produce a feat very similar to Kaguya’s. Then it’s easy to scale Soul King tier characters to that level. For speed I know Clyde (and Seth to a lesser degree) use LS ceros, from there it’s easy to get MFTL to MFTL+ Bleach. You can also use the Auswahlen feat to get up there as well, and there’s an MFTL+ high end interpretation for a Hikone speed feat. Boom there you go, around star and at least MFTL Ichigo as well.

Considering Seth thinks baseline 5-A Juubidara is 2019 scaling, I think this is where they’ll be. Which from the mindset of Bijuu being ~planetary and Ichigo having ~Sokyoku power from SS arc, I can believe that this would be his mindset.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
I have a vague sense of where I think he’ll place Naruto and Ichigo based on the fact he thinks they’re relative.

You can use novel statements of Shinobi travel speed to find distances and use the map + view of Naruto’s earth to actually calculate a planet size. To my knowledge, I think it can get around 11x as big (in radius) as our planet. Which means that for the God Tree calc it’s traveling ~11x the distance in the same time (aka ~121x the kinetic energy). This would place the God Tree calc well within 5-A and potentially even High 5-A. To which Naruto would scale to or above that Madara. If Seth has Juubidara at up to High 5-A, all of a sudden High 4-C Kaguya doesn’t sound so far-fetched. So, I could see Seth putting peak Shippuden Naruto at around that High 4-C range (maybe even 4-B if you wank Kaguya’s feat a bit). Then for speed I know Seth has used the 72x FTL KCM Naruto calc, there’s the ~500x FTL Edo Madara meteor calc, and he’s brought up a “calc stacking” meta where Naruto amped thousands of people to 3x Kakashi level (Kakashi being ~FTL for reacting to water bullet which had the databook LS statement) and then saying Naruto is like ~3000x if not more Kakashi’s speed (MFTL+). I don’t think universal Naruto will be mentioned because I don’t think Seth buys universal Bleach. I’m going to guess Naruto will be in that star range with at least MFTL speeds.

Para Ichigo é super fácil colocá-lo na faixa de 5-A (diabos nós até fazemos isso aqui), mas na verdade é tão fácil fazer Ichigo chegar a 5-A usando declarações de databook e multiplicadores declarados extremamente razoáveis (um pouco de uma pilha multiplicadora potencialmente). No entanto, em MoN há um canhão kido que pode destruir o Kyogoku e sua dimensão de conexão (que muito provavelmente tem uma estrela baseada no céu azul e no diagrama de Mayuri), o que produziria um feito muito semelhante ao de Kaguya. Então é fácil escalar personagens de nível Soul King para esse nível. Para velocidade, eu sei que Clyde (e Seth em um grau menor) usam LS ceros, a partir daí é fácil fazer MFTL para MFTL + Bleach. Você também pode usar o talento Auswahlen para chegar lá também, e há uma interpretação de ponta MFTL + para um talento de velocidade Hikone. Boom lá vai,

Considering Seth thinks baseline 5-A Juubidara is 2019 scaling, I think this is where they’ll be. Which from the mindset of Bijuu being ~planetary and Ichigo having ~Sokyoku power from SS arc, I can believe that this would be his mindset.
Click to expand...
Wank
 
Personally I find any god tree calc to be quite faulty. Naruto planet size I’m neutral on, if you did pixel scale it Hagoromo’s moon feat would prolly sit in that 5-B to 5-A range. It would only approach God Tree levels with wanked KE, but even then I don’t think it would make it out of 5-A. Kaguya’s scaling to her ETSO exists but most people (myself included) find it a bit suspect. I think High 4-C Kaguya is a fine high end, but I don’t find it very consistent. I think anything far beyond FTL for either verse is wank lol. I think what really saves Ichigo’s AP from being stuck at baseline planetary are the verbatim 10x AP amps that come from CO that his amps scale to in terms of quantifiable boosts. Then again I’m no Naruto genius powerscaler so take my Naruto opinions with a grain of salt.
 
Yup what those guys said, iirc in the databook for Madara’s meteor it implies it could’ve came from geostationary orbit/the meteor is so big it likely came from there, and then slap the anime timeframe on it and it can hit like MFTL.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Yup what those guys said, iirc in the databook for Madara’s meteor it implies it could’ve came from geostationary orbit/the meteor is so big it likely came from there, and then slap the anime timeframe on it and it can hit like MFTL.
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Which is funny because when it is actually falling, the meteor is slow as hell.
 
If I had to reasonably lowball both characters, I’d have Naruto at baseline Small Planetary for one shotting Toneri with just KCM and SM (no six paths, and Toneri has a 5-C+ moon split calc). And then FTL speeds via light fang. I’d have Ichigo scaling decently above planetary via SK statements + Senna feat + databook statements, with Ichigo reaching near the top of planetary with his Hollow amps. Then he’d have FTL speeds via our scaling Hikone (without Hikone I think Ichigo can be lowballed to like relativistic). Lowballed it’s easier to get Naruto faster but it’s easier to get Ichigo stronger imo.


Damage3245 said:
Which is funny because when it is actually falling, the meteor is slow as hell.
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oh yeah for sure, the ****** isn’t even ablated there’s no fire indicating rapid entry speeds at all, the people that argue it argue Madara slowed it down. Quite the assumption imo lmao.
 
Oh I guess there’s the weird scaling in The Last, 200 Shinobi can power a “moon destroying cannon” and Naruto can amp thousands of Shinobi to 3x Kakashi, so like in KCM2 you can make a weird case for Naruto being 3000/200 times the moon destroying cannon. But as I said, that’s weird putting it lightly.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
If I had to reasonably lowball both characters, I’d have Naruto at baseline Small Planetary for one shotting Toneri with just KCM and SM (no six paths, and Toneri has a 5-C+ moon split calc). And then FTL speeds via light fang. I’d have Ichigo scaling decently above planetary via SK statements + Senna feat + databook statements, with Ichigo reaching near the top of planetary with his Hollow amps. Then he’d have FTL speeds via our scaling Hikone (without Hikone I think Ichigo can be lowballed to like relativistic). Lowballed it’s easier to get Naruto faster but it’s easier to get Ichigo stronger
Click to expand...
How funny guess i will try as well

Lowballed Naruto :

Ap: baseline small planet, comparable to fused momo who is over two times stronger than toneri's feat

Speed: 2,11c going from light fang calc

Lowballed Ichigo:

Ap baseline planet level, 10 times higher with HOS, at least 10 times stronger than HOS with GRG and bankai

Speed: 0,7c scaling to hikone, 7c with HOS and above
 
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Arc7Kuroi said:
Oh I guess there’s the weird scaling in The Last, 200 Shinobi can power a “moon destroying cannon” and Naruto can amp thousands of Shinobi to 3x Kakashi, so like in KCM2 you can make a weird case for Naruto being 3000/200 times the moon destroying cannon. But as I said, that’s weird putting it lightly.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure that cannon was going to teleport the Moon to another dimension or something, not destroy it.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Oh I guess there’s the weird scaling in The Last, 200 Shinobi can power a “moon destroying cannon” and Naruto can amp thousands of Shinobi to 3x Kakashi, so like in KCM2 you can make a weird case for Naruto being 3000/200 times the moon destroying cannon. But as I said, that’s weird putting it lightly.
Click to expand...
Wasn’t that debunked by the fact that in reality the cannon teleport the moon?
 
Damage3245 said:
Pretty sure that cannon was going to teleport the Moon to another dimension or something, not destroy it.
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Tyri456 said:
Wasn’t that debunked by the fact that in reality the cannon teleport the moon?
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Oh no I’m aware they say teleport and destroy which makes it needlessly convoluted for no reason. I just brought it up because it exists not because I think it’s good scaling.

While I’m certainly one to talk hehe, I think powerscalers can get a little bit out of hand with the number crunching we can do, and get lost in the scaling without considering narrative influence. Now to preface, to claim I know the author intent better than others is facetious and isn’t exactly a strong argument in a debate, I think it can ground our mindset a bit.

With Naruto the big baddies are these life wipers who go around absorbing the life energy of the planets the go around. And the power of alien gods is that to throw the moon around and cut it apart. They’re portrayed as planetary threats who can casually whip around orbiting natural satellites. There’s a lot of emphasis placed on feats with the moon.

Then with Bleach you got the upper echelon being capable narratively of casually reforming and destroying the realms as they see fit with the power of Reio. They’re threats to multiple realms and potentially all of existence. A corpse husk had that power lol.

Narrative planet life wipers who can easily bust the moon vs narrative multi planetary destroyers who can reshape the world at their whim. I meaaaaaaaan I’m just saying, but that’s enough “high roading” lol I’m excited to see the animation regardless.
 
What do y'all think is going on with the current state of ichigo's zanpakuto in the hell arc? Why does his shikai look exactly like his old shikai and not the dual ones we saw in TYBW? Was the sword he used to kill yhwach for good his actual shikai rather than his true bankai and that the dualies were fake? Oh boy kubo pls save us
 
Rebirth said:
What do y'all think is going on with the current state of ichigo's zanpakuto in the hell arc? Why does his shikai look exactly like his old shikai and not the dual ones we saw in TYBW? Was the sword he used to kill yhwach for good his actual shikai rather than his true bankai and that the dualies were fake? Oh boy kubo pls save us
Click to expand...
I remember CFYOW saying something about that but i ain't sure
 
0672-007.png

I'm sure kubo will eventually be questioned about this on klub but knowing how hush hush/vague he can get we're prolly not going to get an in depth explanation anytime soon sadly
 
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