BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[Arc7Kuroi]

I haven't, you got link?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I thought IMade did a solid job on his version of Naruto vs. Ichigo.

Ya'll seen it?

Link?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

We are all fiends.

Edit: prolly this

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Here it is ya'll.

Get some water, since it's a long one. Tell me what ya'll think afterwards. Im surprised ya'll haven't seen it. @Arc7Kuroi @AnonymousBlank @Rebirth

 

[Rebirth]

According to seth, this scan says that FKT yama was the fastest captain in the gotei 13. Can anyone translate this word for word to confirm if it's true?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Nothing (and I mean nothing) says or implies the Raikage is lightning speed.

I actually think there's a novel statement now that states Raikage has lightning speed movement, albeit his post is 4 years old so I'll let it slide.

Only in the anime did Naruto time the Light Fang, in the manga it's shown he dodges the swing of Madara's neck give how Madara was positioned and how Naruto was further on Madara's right than his left.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh it's kinda vague in the manga, and I see no issue with using the anime to clear up manga vagueness. So, imo, FTL Naruto based on light fang is valid.

Naruto getting stabbed in KCM3 by Sasuke's sword is a huge anti-feat and a clear indicator of why Ichigo would carve through Naruto like butter. Naruto has terrible durability to blades and he's solely blunt force and energy based durability.

Iirc it was stated Naruto was rusty here (I think this is during the Shin thing) + Naruto was caught off guard + teen Naruto tanked chidori at VotE (chidori known for its piercing and cutting power).

It's implied that Naruto did not get hit by the first usage of Toneri's GWR that cut the moon. Naruto is completely fine and comes back with a bunch of clones. If he somehow no-sold it then it would be a huge outlier given this feat was done in his weaker form, KCM3, and his more powerful So6P mode was being hurt repeatedly by much weaker attacks. Also, just look at point number 1 where Naruto was easily stabbed in his KCM3, it's an outlier.

Lol. Outlier is a very poor argument imo, the feat happens on screen I'm fine with it. You can just claim teen Nard's SPSM upscales or that older Nard got stronger. "He got stabbed off guard therefore this on guard feat is an outlier" seems extremely disingenuous.

Ichigo usually beats his opponents by being faster, durable and stronger. He does have some clever moments, but I wouldn't say master.

Based.

Las Noches takes at least 6 days to walk around, it's dishonest to say just "a city"

Yeah LN and Seireitei downplay is super annoying and antiquated. Glad I don't see it much anymore in my circles at least.

They didn't even mention the 1000 Ri feat that Ichigo scales to, the strength of Gran Rey Cero (which was said by WoG and Ulquiorra to be able to destroy Las Noches) or the fact that Ichigo cut Yhwach with his True Bankai when his True Shikai Hollow Merge couldn't even scratch Yhwach. They didn't even address that True Shikai > Dangai Mode. They just did Ichigo dirty here.

Yeah this is 2017 alright...

True Bankai Hollow Merge Ichigo going into FGT and losing his powers after FGT.

Lol this was funny, I remember watching that wackness.

Definitely agree with the two former points (Nard has a better arsenal and training), but the latter isn't true when discussing Zangetsu. Naruto's best healing feat was healing slashes by Haku and the hole Sasuke punched through his shoulder in Part 1. Zangetsu healed a whole arm and a hole through his chest (didn't have a heart during Zangetsu vs Ulquiorra) when Ichigo came back. OMZ is able to use Blut Vene for Ichigo to also stop his bleeding. Naruto doesn't take regeneration.

Ichigo resurrected himself thanks to Zangetsu so yeah I agree lol, high speed Hollow regen is op.

The sensing works in two ways, negative emotions with KCM1 and Chakra sensing with Sage Mode. Neither works on Ichigo has he wouldn't have negative emotions nor does he have Chakra. As for Limbo, Naruto explicitly could not see Limbo, but he could sense them and that's how he fought them. Also, the comment that Limbo is another plane of existence is inaccurate. Limbo was able to interact with anyone (The Tailed Beast and Sakura was able to touch one). Naruto had no means of seeing nor sensing Ichigo.

Ehhhhhhhhhhh saying Naruto can't see spirits or at least sense them is dated. Limbo are verbatim stated to be in a separate dimension too so don't know why that was contested.

"Raikage is LS" Complete bullshit, wank at it's absolute best. The Raikage dons on Raiton Chakra Mode, it's Lightning Style Armor. It amplifies his speed and strength to an unstated amount and an unquantifiable power up. To say it's the speed of lightning would be to wank the name of the Jutsu Style (Jutsu Style is only to say what type of Jutsu it is which is even worse). The only solid statement is that the Raikage's reactions are on par with Minato (who didn't really have much feats before he died) and the Raiton Armor amplifies it. And then to say that it's the return stroke's speed instead of the slower stepped leader is worse. Wank for the sake of wank.

Ay does have lightning speed statements, but the LS one is pretty suspect (Kanji used is very traditionally metaphorical).

Tenjiro made the statement and Tenjiro's title implies him to be the fastest of the Royal Guard to my interpretation. Using Ichibei is stupid, using Ichigo is much better. We know True Shikai Ichigo is greater than Dangai, and Dangai was massively above Mach 1000 (Aizen was FTE to Visored Ichigo who could react and dodge a Mach 1000 attack and then Aizen underwent three power-ups and was still inferior to Dangai Ichigo) so you can multiply seconds in 9 hours and 15 minutes to Mach 1000. But the distance is unneeded unless you're saying Mimihagi (who crossed the distance in seconds) was unable to blitz Yhwach and then trying to scale Yhwach to Ichigo to be MFTL, but that'd be an outlier anyway in my opinion.

I find using mach 1000 travel speed for TS Ichigo to be fine, considering he has ridiculous stamina and is far faster than that anyhow. Stated speeds + stated times = reliable distance, checks out. This doesn't make Mimihagi MFTL tho, it makes Mimihagi like FTL+ at best, and more reasonably slightly above baseline FTL.

Seriously, the main reason that Ichigo beats Naruto is due to his speed being multiple times higher than Naruto's feats. Not applying the Bankai boost and leaving him with his True Shikai speed is so dishonest.

Ichigo being multiple times faster hmmmmmmmmmmm, imo it's unironically easier to lowball Ichigo to slower than light than Naruto, so idk bout that. But saying TS Ichigo speed = TB HoS Ichigo speed is stupid.

Whoever uses this scaling, ya moms a hoe.

FB Shikai = 10x Dangai, DB on that new wave shit far before BleachHub damn.

This is so wrong it's not even funny. Chakra does not function like Reiatsu at all. If you equalize the energies then Ichigo Reiatsu crushes Naruto or vaporizes him since a weaker being like Aizen was vaporizing humans in his presence in a weaker form while limiting his Reiatsu.

Allegedly DB said Ichigo couldn't harm Naruto cuz he couldn't harm Kenpachi when Kenpachi was stronger than Ichigo yikes is all I say to that. Ichigo RCing Naruto is a matter of if you think AP relativity matters, cuz in Bleach you can only RC those weaker than you, but not every verse energy system functions like Bleach. So, you gotta go in depth for why Naruto can resist RC. If you use soul potency layers Naruto isn't resisting RC at all.

I have no idea why they assume it would take 24 days to walk around Las Noches. I lowball and say it takes 3 days to get to the opposite side of Las Noches and 3 days around, thus 6 days total. That would put it about the size of Switzerland. 24 days is California sized. They also said that Visored Ichigo could bust it...when it's Zangetsu that was able to do it casually at less than half power.

DB on crack for this one, continent sized LN lets gooooo.

Naruto only truly no-sells the blast when he concentrates his KCM3 Chakra Cloak into his arm to use as a shield to stop Toneri's GWR. As seen with his KCM3 form as an adult, Naruto is prone to simple stabbing and it knocks him out his form. His bladed durability is infamously low. Technically yes, Naruto with his arm out with the Chakra concentrated could no-sell Ichigo's attacks, but that leaves him open to everywhere else on his body...which is no better when it comes to being pierced.

A very weird take, ig 2017 IMade doesn't think Ichigo nor Naruto's regular stats are anywhere near tier 5. But I disagree with Naruto having poor "cutting durability" he point blank tanked chidori. But like if he concedes that the Last Naruto's concentrated chakra fist no sells Ichigo, isn't he lowkey conceding to DB here?

Also, they claim that Ulquiorra/Ichigo was only able to bust Las Noches with his full power, and that Naruto can casually put out attacks that caused the moon crater. It's actually the opposite. Naruto made the crater with pretty much all his Chakra being used to cause the explosion. Ulquiorra and Ichigo were literally spamming attacks that could easily destroy Las Noches, if you're gonna calc Reiatsu and Chakra amount at least realize which is casual and which is not. This Death Battle is perhaps the most wrong one done so far with the least amount of effort put in as they didn't even finish up the calcs nor realize they were wrong.

He says early that busting sumn 1 million times the size of California is a better feat than making a huge hole in the moon, which is kinda normie cuz it depends on the volume of whats being destroyed and the method of destruction, but I don't think IMade is a calcer so its fine. Yeah Ulq and Ichigo can spam Lanzas and amped Ceros like its dragon ball, meanwhile Naruto had an unquantifiable amount of chakra ripped from him, definitely a weird take for DB for sure.

So Naruto's Chakra Arms are Multi-Mountain as well and in total, Naruto casually puts out attacks on this level and above this level with his Bijuudamas/Bijuudama Rasenshurikens.

Multi-Mountain Naruto IMade uses a lot of "AoE comparisons" in this post which is a blatant use of the AoE fallacy, but then again I dont think IMade is a calcer so its whatever.

Ichigo was already ahead of Naruto with just his feats with Zangetsu at half power, adding Dangai's feats and the multipliers is overkill, but it's the truth for his peak.

SE Ulq solos the Naruto verse IMade out here being wild. Lanza in terms of AoE (to my memory) is comparable in size to Juubi bombs (give or take who calcs what sizes). Ichigo's AoE with ceros is prolly comparable to the average bijuudama (I'd have to actually compare them). Naruto has better AoE spam with clones and massive rasenshuriken and bijuudama.

Naruto's durability to energy and blunt force is pretty much off of his own attacks being set off by him, so you can equate his durability being equivalent to his destructive power. Now, as I showed above, Naruto is pretty susceptible to blades, it's not his forte. Kurama covers for it as it could use it's tails to block Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o sword strikes which could cut apart meteors that dwarfed mountains. Blocking Toneri's GWR which cut a hollow moon in half would be added, but Naruto needs to focus his Chakra into his arm as a shield, which he generally won't do and it removes the amp from his Cloak on the rest of his body. It has more downsides than ups. It would definitely block Ichigo's attacks at his peak though.

Scaling Nard's dura to his AP is chill lol. Again Nard tanked a point blank chidori, that one time he was stabbed was off guard tmk.

I believe the feat should be around Mach 1500+ per discussions.

Mach 1500 Naruto I already said why I think LF is valid.

The Light Fang feat is disregarded since it's more implied that Naruto dodged the swing of the Light Fang (thus Naruto is faster than Madara's neck speed). The anime has Naruto dodge it, but the anime is not indicative of the manga. If this feat were somehow valid, it'd be a huge outlier for Naruto's character.

Yikes.

The higher up speed scaling for Ichigo begins with Gin's Bankai and Visored Ichigo. Visored Ichigo's best feat at the time was reacting to Gin's Buto Renjin. Gin stated his Bankai was Mach 500 and according to the databook Bleach: Official Character Book UNMASKED, Buto Renjin is doubling in speed and power.

Valid.

Mimihagi going MFTL for crossing the distance from Seireitei to the Royal Palace and then Yhwach reacting to Mimihagi's attempted blitz is an outlier. Saying that Yhwach has MFTL reactions, thus Hollow Merge True Shikai Ichigo being FTE to him momentarily would be false and just another outlier.

It's not actually that fast, FTL to FTL+, kinda consistent ngl.

Naruto has Ichigo beat here easily. Seriously, Naruto has like a dozen different Rasengans, Shadow Clones, Substitution, Frog Kumite, Sealing, TSB (which are atomizing but Naruto doesn't use them offensively), and Rasenshuriken (which are cellular). Ichigo has what, Getsuga Tensho, Getsuga Jujisho and Gran Rey Cero. They both have regen technically as well. Sill, Naruto has a much bigger arsenal and tool-bag than Ichigo.

Facts.

It's quite clear how large the gap is between Naruto and Ichigo in terms of physicals, it's too large for Naruto to actually win despite Naruto having the better versatility. Hollow Merge True Bankai Ichigo should take the majority if not stomp So6P Naruto since he has a clear physical advantage in all categories.

I think Ichigo out APs Naruto yeah. This post I will say shows its age A LOT, it is clearly 2017 scaling with all the emphasis on the big boom booms like Lanza and Fragor and Bijuudama. Product of its time ig.

I have to give props to DB though for saying Ichigo and Naruto don't scale to Yhwach and Kaguya, nor call them "planet busters". It's such a huge misconception on all battleboards. One day people will all understand the truth.

Oh how the times have changed lmao... 4 years and people go from "they can't be planetary" to they're at least planetary and possibly universal. What a change, not gonna read the entire comments.

 

[AppleLord]

What do y'all think is going on with the current state of ichigo's zanpakuto in the hell arc? Why does his shikai look exactly like his old shikai and not the dual ones we saw in TYBW? Was the sword he used to kill yhwach for good his actual shikai rather than his true bankai and that the dualies were fake? Oh boy kubo pls save us

His Bankai remains broken, weaker.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh it's kinda vague in the manga, and I see no issue with using the anime to clear up manga vagueness. So, imo, FTL Naruto based on light fang is valid.

I think the problem with using it to clear up vagueness is that they are both too different in execution.

In the manga, it is heavily implied that naruto dodged the swing of the neck rather than the activation of LF as evident with a part of his headband getting severed and madara clearly having swung his neck from the artistic details in the scan.

The anime didn't adapt it the same way at all.

 

[Reio35]

I have a vague sense of where I think he’ll place Naruto and Ichigo based on the fact he thinks they’re relative.

You can use novel statements of Shinobi travel speed to find distances and use the map + view of Naruto’s earth to actually calculate a planet size. To my knowledge, I think it can get around 11x as big (in radius) as our planet. Which means that for the God Tree calc it’s traveling ~11x the distance in the same time (aka ~121x the kinetic energy). This would place the God Tree calc well within 5-A and potentially even High 5-A. To which Naruto would scale to or above that Madara. If Seth has Juubidara at up to High 5-A, all of a sudden High 4-C Kaguya doesn’t sound so far-fetched. So, I could see Seth putting peak Shippuden Naruto at around that High 4-C range (maybe even 4-B if you wank Kaguya’s feat a bit). Then for speed I know Seth has used the 72x FTL KCM Naruto calc, there’s the ~500x FTL Edo Madara meteor calc, and he’s brought up a “calc stacking” meta where Naruto amped thousands of people to 3x Kakashi level (Kakashi being ~FTL for reacting to water bullet which had the databook LS statement) and then saying Naruto is like ~3000x if not more Kakashi’s speed (MFTL+). I don’t think universal Naruto will be mentioned because I don’t think Seth buys universal Bleach. I’m going to guess Naruto will be in that star range with at least MFTL speeds.

For Ichigo it’s super easy to get him in the 5-A range (hell we even do that here), but it’s actually just as easy to get Ichigo to High 5-A using databook statements and extremely reasonable stated multipliers (a little bit of a multiplier stack potentially). However, in MoN there’s a kido cannon that can destroy the Kyogoku and it’s connecting dimension (which very likely has a star based on the blue sky and Mayuri’s diagram), which would produce a feat very similar to Kaguya’s. Then it’s easy to scale Soul King tier characters to that level. For speed I know Clyde (and Seth to a lesser degree) use LS ceros, from there it’s easy to get MFTL to MFTL+ Bleach. You can also use the Auswahlen feat to get up there as well, and there’s an MFTL+ high end interpretation for a Hikone speed feat. Boom there you go, around star and at least MFTL Ichigo as well.

Considering Seth thinks baseline 5-A Juubidara is 2019 scaling, I think this is where they’ll be. Which from the mindset of Bijuu being ~planetary and Ichigo having ~Sokyoku power from SS arc, I can believe that this would be his mindset.

Naruto's planet being bigger than earth is just Bull shit wank tbh. Obito literally says their on earth.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/869634199437590580/924881146435760178/0467-016.png

Seth is going have to wank war arc naruto to large planet. Realistically he's moon level at best. Vos dimension in the MON is large star and Ss and the wol dwarfs it so you can easily say multi solar at least

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Naruto's planet being bigger than earth is just Bull shit wank tbh. Obito literally says their on earth.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/869634199437590580/924881146435760178/0467-016.png

Trust me, I share the same opinion. I'm basing my claims up there based on what I've heard Seth say.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I think the problem with using it to clear up vagueness is that they are both too different in execution.

In the manga, it is heavily implied that naruto dodged the swing of the neck rather than the activation of LF as evident with a part of his headband getting severed and madara clearly having swung his neck from the artistic details in the scan.

The anime didn't adapt it the same way at all.

No the scenes are extremely similar in the anime and manga. We just see more in the anime. Denying Naruto at least FTL reactions is kind of a thing of the past. It makes zero sense for Madara not to aim the LF at Nard.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

No the scenes are extremely similar in the anime and manga. We just see more in the anime. Denying Naruto at least FTL reactions is kind of a thing of the past. It makes zero sense for Madara not to aim the LF at Nard.

What's funny about that is.

In one of the previews by seth, he actually references the madara LF neck swing and naruto barely dodging the swing with the headband getting severed.

EDIT: here it is.

 

[SilentBob34]

His Bankai remains broken, weaker.

Never implied, especially with Orihime who can fix it

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Orihime who can fix it

Nope. the Almighty negged orihime's causality manip sadly, so no fixing

 

[Axxtentacle]

Uh... that dude with the Fullbring fixed his Bankai. When Ichigo killed Yhwach, his sword turned into the young-Yhwach-zangetsu thing. It probably just didn't change back.

 

[YukaSama4]

What if he has a base Zanpakuto, Shikai mode, and Bankai?

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Uh... that dude with the Fullbring fixed his Bankai. When Ichigo killed Yhwach, his sword turned into the young-Yhwach-zangetsu thing. It probably just didn't change back.

Oh damn, I forgot about tsukishima

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Idk why anyone is claiming anything objective about the state of Ichigo's Zangetsu when all we can do is speculate, mrks.

Anyways, I'm almost done the Christmas gift, 13 pages (6000+ words) in and I've finally hit the conclusion. I think it's about time to usher in a new era of Bleach scaling on this site. Get hyped.

 

[YukaSama4]

Idk why anyone is claiming anything objective about the state of Ichigo's Zangetsu when all we can do is speculate, mrks.

Anyways, I'm almost done the Christmas gift, 13 pages (6000+ words) in and I've finally hit the conclusion. I think it's about time to usher in a new era of Bleach scaling on this site. Get hyped.

u gonna post it today?

 

[YukaSama4]

that needs 3 days of reading so start a thread and get it closed for 3 days and open it again

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Anyways, I'm almost done the Christmas gift, 13 pages (6000+ words) in and I've finally hit the conclusion. I think it's about time to usher in a new era of Bleach scaling on this site. Get hyped.

I hope no mountain level Bleach .

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

I think it's about time to usher in a new era of Bleach scaling on this site. Get hyped.

We'll believe it when we see it.

For all we know, you might pull a switcheroonie and downgrade the verse to town level

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

For all we know, you might pull a switcheroonie and downgrade the verse to town level

Arrow level yhwach . Town level still a wank. Anything bleach characters does has to do with hax they don't scale to their abilities.

 

[YukaSama4]

No Arc isn't that evil, I think the thread will debunk the planetary Bleach, because its the only topic I have seen arc going for with a bible as its the most controversial Bleach topic in this era, if it's another downgrade he wouldn't need to go through all this work because it can be accepted with much less information

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Hello guys please take a look and give your opinion. I don't want these thread to just die.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-possible-upgrade-for-existance-eraser-ability-and-resistance-for-ichigo.129442/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-possible-existence-eraser-upgrade-for-soi-fan.129483/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-can-captains-level-and-higher-reatsu-soul-reapers-classify-for-immortality-type-8.129527/

 

[YukaSama4]

anyways Im going to study will come back after hours because my opponent (chemistry) is more threat than the entire Bleach downgraders to me

 

[YukaSama4]

Hello guys please take a look and give your opinion. I don't want these thread to just die.

I put my opinion on the first one, IDK about the immortality thing, Soifon seemed ok to me but we don't accept something as EE unless its directly stated afaik

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I put my opinion on the first one,

So should I contact some staff ?

IDK about the immortality thing,

Well Yama going to hell even after yhwach erased his body and Ukitake going to hell just because Ichigo badge makes their existence can be anywhere stored.

Soifon seemed ok to me but we don't accept something as EE unless its directly stated afaik

I am hoping if anyone has some better knowledge on that ability. I am also not sure if it's EE.

 

[Deceived3596]

Hello guys please take a look and give your opinion. I don't want these thread to just die.

I'll respond to the Sui-Feng one and the Captain one later, i just got up and i need to eat.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'll respond to the Sui-Feng one and the Captain one later, i just got up and i need to eat.

It's ok. Take your time

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

anyways Im going to study will come back after hours because my opponent (chemistry) is more threat than the entire Bleach downgraders to me

I feel you

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Y’all are evil

 

[Reio35]

Kenpachi is probably the king of hell that's why he has a devil like appearance in bankai

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Y’all are evil

Arc V Fandom​

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Y’all are evil

Fake bleach expert.

You're probs secretly planning to sabotage the verse. IMade would never hmph~

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Kenpachi is probably the king of hell that's why he has a devil like appearance in bankai

Yama pulling up as King off hell wait for it

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Cyberblader90

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Cyberblader90

 

[Loyd]

was Arc's christmas crt a down or upgrade?