BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[Ovy7]

Is there a way to calc the distance between each barrier and multiply it by 72?

Well, Ichibe hit Yhwach 3900 km away from the palace and didn't hit any barrier, so if we assume that the distance between them is like that then the entire distance is 3900 * 72 = 280800 km.

 

[M11UTD]

Well, Ichibe hit Yhwach 3900 km away from the palace and didn't hit any barrier, so if we assume that the distance between them is like that then the entire distance is 3900 * 72 = 280800 km.

He actually smacked him twice, so double the distance.

 

[Damage3245]

@M11UTD, the second hit was to hit him downwards, not in the same direction he was hit before.

 

[Hasch]

Problem is the map shows differences between the distance for each barrier.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Imagine thinking Ichigo's in the war arc can travel slower than a 4th Seat can react in the SS arc...

I mean the Bleach speed ratings here are quite the joke that's news to no one, here at VSBW we base our Bleach scaling on a single Orihime calc and a potential lie from Gin, flawless isn't it!?

We had a lot of calcs until damage got DB happy and erase them.

 

[Hasch]

Is there a reason to not calc the palace distance using mach500?

True Shikai Ichigo going full speed is at least that fast since he actually dodged buto renjin with vizard.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi; I don't think the Bankai multiplier works for that.

Remember that in Shikai his sword can extend to 100 times its length (so at least over a hundred meters or so), but in Bankai it can extend up to 13 kilometers. That's a pretty drastic difference in scale that isn't accounted by a 5x - 10x multiplier.

“It doesn’t extend as far as I said it does” -Gin

I’ll save it for a future CRT if it’s so contentious. Also he was called hundred sword Gin or something like that, that seems more akin to “lightning-fast Tenjiro” then something we should take verbatim.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; I don't mind discussing it more but regarding the hundred sword point, that isn't just an alias, it is part of Gin's explanation here.

 

[Hasch]

@Damage3245 is there a reason to not use mach 500 to find the distance to the palace?

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage3245 is there a reason to not use mach 500 to find the distance to the palace?

I can't think of a reason to use it.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Ichigo transcends Aizen who transcends all Shinigami and was just shanked by that Bankai. TSI > Dangai. There is no reason to not use it.

 

[AppleLord]

Problem is the map shows differences between the distance for each barrier.

It looks like a pattern of 5, 7, 5,... etc... but that's an assumption we would have to make.

 

[AppleLord]

Something I remembered only know, but when was night on the Seireitei, it was day in the SK palace Right?

How did you come up with that conclusion?

 

[AppleLord]

@Damage3245 what about using Tenjiro's statement about being fast as lightning and acknowledging Ichigo's speed? Ichigo has a feat of dodging lightning, so is a supporting statement and foreshadow to his upcoming lightning dodge feat and not a hyperbole.

 

[Hasch]

I can't think of a reason to use it.

Because the shunpo from true Shikai Ichigo is at least that fast.

Base Ichigo reacts to that mach 500, then with vizard uses shunpo to dodge a barrage from mach1000 butou renjin, both hilariously weaker than this Ichigo, who manhandled multiple SR and can fight Ywach himself.

Both forms where completely blitzed by casual base Aizen, who this Ichigo is equal or stronger, because he is stronger than Shikai Isshin.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Damage3245 is there a reason to not use mach 500 to find the distance to the palace?

Actually this might have some merit.

TS Ichigo = Dangai Ichigo > Transcendent Aizen > all Shinigami we've seen so far at least ~ Mach 500

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi; I don't mind discussing it more but regarding the hundred sword point, that isn't just an alias, it is part of Gin's explanation here.

Regarding the sword length, we currently accept that Bankai with respect to stats is an increase of 5-10x, I'd argue that Gin's sword length falls into a similar category of change as Mayuri's Bankai, being that the length is unrelated to the stat amp. Which nets Toshiro at least Mach 1378.

However going by the hundred swords and 13km change from Shikai to Bankai, that would be a 130x difference. Which would end up putting Toshiro at Mach 106.

So either way you slice this pie it's an upgrade.

 

[Hasch]

Yeah, the same Ichigo whose shunpo is close to Gin's Bankai speed can't even see Aizen's shunpo who is at best equal to true shikai Ichigo, making him at least canonically mach 500.


I don't see why it couldn't be used to calc the distance to the palace, both time and speed have canon in-universe sources.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, the same Ichigo whose shunpo is close to Gin's Bankai speed can't even see Aizen's shunpo who is at best equal to true shikai Ichigo, making him at least canonically mach 500.


I don't see why it couldn't be used to calc the distance to the palace, both time and speed have canon in-universe sources.

Let me put it like this. We all know that Namek Saga characters in Dragon Ball are easily Relativistic+, if not FTL. Suppose we have a feat of Vegeta or Krillin flying somewhere for several seconds or even minutes... Now, do you think we could use their Relativistic+ speed to calculate the size of Namek to be many, many times larger than the Sun?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Let me put it like this. We all know that Namek Saga characters in Dragon Ball are easily Relativistic+, if not FTL. Suppose we have a feat of Vegeta or Krillin flying somewhere for several seconds or even minutes... Now, do you think we could use their Relativistic+ speed to calculate the size of Namek to be many, many times larger than the Sun?

Mach 500 is a statement not a feat.

I believe the rationale is that the Mach 500 statement should apply to TS Ichigo because TS Ichigo = Dangai Ichigo > Transcendent Aizen > all known Shinigami statements pre-Deicide chapters at least

 

[Warren_Valion]

So wait? We are taking Gin's Mach 500 statement as a literal form of scaling now?

Really?

 

[Zoro21043]

does byakuyas petals increase in number when he goes bankai? if so by how much?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

So wait? We are taking Gin's Mach 500 statement as a literal form of scaling now?

Really?

Yeah me too, we base our entire scaling on a Mach 7.41 Orihime calc and Gin's statement.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

does byakuyas petals increase in number when he goes bankai? if so by how much?

1000 to 100 million I think

 

[Zoro21043]

1000 to 100 million I think

yea then using the argument of gins bankai length being more than x10 shouldnt be used to not use the toshiro calc as it seems like the multiplier doesnt affect length and number of things

 

[Damage3245]

yea then using the argument of gins bankai length being more than x10 shouldnt be used to not use the toshiro calc as it seems like the multiplier doesnt affect length and number of things

Couldn't the same thing apply to the speed of his Bankai's extension/retraction?

 

[Zoro21043]

Couldn't the same thing apply to the speed of his Bankai's extension/retraction?

no because we know bankai affects speed and ichigo said gins bankai is dangerous because of its speed and gin confirmed it so it clearly boosts the speed

 

[Damage3245]

no because we know bankai affects speed and ichigo said gins bankai is dangerous because of its speed and gin confirmed it so it clearly boosts the speed

Yes, my point is it doesn't necessarily boost it by 5 to 10 times.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Couldn't the same thing apply to the speed of his Bankai's extension/retraction?

What Zoro is getting at is that the Bankai multiplier should only apply to stats, not physical characteristics. Because if not then Byakuya's Bankai is a 100 thousand times amp.

 

[Zoro21043]

Yes, my point is it doesn't necessarily boost it by 5 to 10 times.

thats the multiplier we have for bankai
unless byakuyas is a x100000 boost

 

[Hasch]

Let me put it like this. We all know that Namek Saga characters in Dragon Ball are easily Relativistic+, if not FTL. Suppose we have a feat of Vegeta or Krillin flying somewhere for several seconds or even minutes... Now, do you think we could use their Relativistic+ speed to calculate the size of Namek to be many, many times larger than the Sun?

That's calcstacking, using a canon speed value wouldn't be.

Example, mach 33 (from 1 million km in 24hs) x several hours = X namek size.

Here we have a literal clock giving detailed timeframe and a specific number for speed, and no contradiction since it's a dimensional tunel so we don't need to worry about the size of the planet or anything.

Can't be outlier either since there's multiple similar and higher speed feats, as I see it there's no problem.

 

[Hasch]

So wait? We are taking Gin's Mach 500 statement as a literal form of scaling now?

Really?

If you think Gin is talking bullshit, how about Ichigo being faster than Candice natural lightning without even using shunpo?

Lightning speed for 9 hours = distance to the palace.

 

[Ovy7]

I still think USklaverei's calc (the new one) is the best way.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Using Gin's statement is complete nonsense.

• There are numerous feats that are significantly faster than Mach 500 both pre and post time skip
• Gin is literally a ******* snake and nearly everything out of his mouth shouldn't take seriously, especially when he admits to lying about something
• And no, just because Ichigo thought Mach 500 was an insane speed, doesn't mean it is - why the **** would he know if he is numerically faster than some arbitrary speed like something being hundreds of times faster than Gin clapping his hands? Do you calculate and compare your speed like that exactly? Do you think anyone in the Soul Society does? All he knows is that he's faster than those he is faster than, there are no numbers involved.

I know, that if I wasn't on the wiki, I wouldn't know the speed of lightning for instance; And wouldn't think that dodging lightning would be as impressive of a speed feat that dodging a Mach 500 expanding sword is because one of those has a comparison to something I know (Gin clapping his hand) and adds a big multiplier to it.


Also, are we really upscaling an Orihime reaction calc to some no named fodder character for the entire cast? Jesus, how is this community's decision making on these speed feats this ******?

What about the Senbonsakura feat, Ichigo dodging Byakyuga's lightning kido (which is called, acts, moves, and looks like real lightning, just like how all elemental kido take on the features of their element, and to assume that this randomly isn't the case for lightning kido is pure headcanon that goes against Occam's Razor), dodging the Negación, Aaroniero dodging sunlight is literally apart of his character and has a direct feat of this on panel, Candice's lightning (which is faster than real lightning IIRC), Mask's light beam, Lillie in his entirety.

And I am probably forgetting like 4 other feats and statements all faster than Gin's statement or that Orihime calc.

But no, that calc is obviously the only legit speed feat in the series until the top tier level statement of Mach 500 which comes from only the most reputable of sources and clearly overwrites all other feats and statements in the series, how could I forget?


God, I am so done with this shit. Just remove the speed section from Bleach character's profiles entirely and just always equalize speed in fights. It's not even worth debating at this point.

 

[Hasch]

I still think USklaverei's calc (the new one) is the best way.

It seems to be almost the same speed as using Gin's Bankai, so I think either is ok.

 

[Hasch]

Using Gin's statement is complete nonsense.

• There are numerous feats that are significantly faster than Mach 500 both pre and post time skip
• Gin is literally a ******* snake and nearly everything out of his mouth shouldn't take seriously, especially when he admits to lying about something
• And no, just because Ichigo thought Mach 500 was an insane speed, doesn't mean it is - why the **** would he know if he is numerically faster than some arbitrary speed like something being hundreds of times faster than Gin clapping his hands? Do you calculate and compare your speed like that exactly? Do you think anyone in the Soul Society does? All he knows is that he's faster than those he is faster than, there are no numbers involved.

I know, that if I wasn't on the wiki, I wouldn't know the speed of lightning for instance; And wouldn't think that dodging lightning would be as impressive of a speed feat that dodging a Mach 500 expanding sword is because one of those has a comparison to something I know (Gin clapping his hand) and adds a big multiplier to it.


Also, are we really upscaling an Orihime reaction calc to some no named fodder character for the entire cast? Jesus, how is this community's decision making on these speed feats this ******?

What about the Senbonsakura feat, Ichigo dodging Byakyuga's lightning kido (which is called, acts, moves, and looks like real lightning, just like how all elemental kido take on the features of their element, and to assume that this randomly isn't the case for lightning kido is pure headcanon that goes against Occam's Razor), dodging the Negación, Aaroniero dodging sunlight is literally apart of his character and has a direct feat of this on panel, Candice's lightning (which is faster than real lightning IIRC), Mask's light beam, Lillie in his entirety.

And I am probably forgetting like 4 other feats and statements all faster than Gin's statement or that Orihime calc.

But no, that calc is obviously the only legit speed feat in the series until the top tier level statement of Mach 500 which comes from only the most reputable of sources and clearly overwrites all other feats and statements in the series, how could I forget?


God, I am so done with this shit. Just remove the speed section from Bleach character's profiles entirely and just always equalize speed in fights. It's not even worth debating at this point.

Well both Candice's lightning and Gin's Bankai are accepted here while those things you mentioned aren't, and only the Negacion thing has any merit to be discussed again.

Gin never really lied to Ichigo about anything, the databook states he didn't lie about his Bankai and is a canon source.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Well it’s not up to us normal users. According to the other staff on the wiki this is the best scaling and that 95% of those feats aren’t legit.

 

[Zoro21043]

i already brought up aaronierros speed feat and some kept using their own head cannon to say light needs to hit him long enough for it to take effect when thats an assumption and would go against rukias entire plan cuz everything she did was to test out if light had an effect to begin with because she believes he was fast enough to dodge it and her trapping aaronierro is proof of that she has no way of knowing aarnoierro needs to be exposed to light long enough for him to be affected if that was even a thing (which it isnt and its complete headcannon )

 

[Tyri456]

the calc made by Uskaverei is perfect imo.

 

[Hasch]

i already brought up aaronierros speed feat and some kept using their own head cannon to say light needs to hit him long enough for it to take effect when thats an assumption and would go against rukias entire plan cuz everything she did was to test out if light had an effect to begin with because she believes he was fast enough to dodge it and her trapping aaronierro is proof of that she has no way of knowing aarnoierro needs to be exposed to light long enough for him to be affected if that was even a thing (which it isnt and its complete headcannon )

Aaroniero could have reacted to the light in front of him, the sound of the wall being pierced or to himself burning.

He might have dodged the light itself but there's not enough evidence in the manga.