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BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

Myxenete said:
Why?
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Deceived3596 said:
Why?
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Small/fine cutting attacks like Byakuya's senbon should be dura neg. It already hits Yammy's sensitive area, namely his face. Apart from that, there is a scene where he hits him off guard once. The rest of the fight is off screen anyway.

I wouldn't say Byakuya and Zaraki made fun of him. They focused on each other there because they thought Yammy was defeated. Also, Zaraki is someone who wants to fight not only those at his own level, but anyone who can entertain him in a fight. Ichigo was weaker than Zaraki, but he was a fun opponent for Zaraki. Byakuya's nobility and speed make him an opponent that one would want to fight in the first place. Byakuya is someone who does not shy away from any kind of fight offer. Even if Zaraki is 100 times stronger than Byakuya, Byakuya will still fight. He lowers his power level to Byakuya's level in order to enjoy the worst encounter. Just like Ichigo.

I've passed all of that Byakuya, if Yammy level is stronger why is his form weaker than Tsukishima? Ichigo was Fullbringer+Bankai against Ginjo while he was only Fullbringer against Tsukishima. Despite that he gave a better fight than Byakuya.

I don't have time right now I'll continue explaining later.
 
Apollonir.Scale said:
Small/fine cutting attacks like Byakuya's senbon should be dura neg. It already hits Yammy's sensitive area, namely his face. Apart from that, there is a scene where he hits him off guard once. The rest of the fight is off screen anyway.
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Yammy’s face is not a sensitive area that’s headcanon. Maybe if the attack was small to the cellular level you’d have a point but Byakuya combines his petals into large waves and swathes of attacks. And Byakuya doesn’t only hit him off guard.

Apollonir.Scale said:
I wouldn't say Byakuya and Zaraki made fun of him. They focused on each other there because they thought Yammy was defeated. Also, Zaraki is someone who wants to fight not only those at his own level, but anyone who can entertain him in a fight. Ichigo was weaker than Zaraki, but he was a fun opponent for Zaraki. Byakuya's nobility and speed make him an opponent that one would want to fight in the first place. Byakuya is someone who does not shy away from any kind of fight offer. Even if Zaraki is 100 times stronger than Byakuya, Byakuya will still fight. He lowers his power level to Byakuya's level in order to enjoy the worst encounter. Just like Ichigo.
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This is all headcanon. And either way, this just makes Zaraki far stronger than Yammy if we grant it. Zaraki doesn’t actively hold back, he needs the eyepatch to do that (until the TYBW). So no he’s not holding back either.

Apollonir.Scale said:
I've passed all of that Byakuya, if Yammy level is stronger why is his form weaker than Tsukishima? Ichigo was Fullbringer+Bankai against Ginjo while he was only Fullbringer against Tsukishima. Despite that he gave a better fight than Byakuya.
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Yammy just isn’t stronger than Byakuya, you haven’t proved any of that, you just stated your headcanon. You’re not even speaking proper English. Also, if you read Tsukishima’s profile or even read the fight, you’d know that Book of the End can enable Tsukishima to grow stronger by inserting himself into a past where he trains. Also, Ichigo’s Fullbring surpasses his old Bankai which is Res Yammy level. Ichigo’s Fullbring Bankai is tier 5, way above Yammy. None of your points support your claim at all. Please read the profiles again.
 
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Durability Negation necessarily requires you to show or have the capability of bypassing someone's durability, regardless of the AP-Durability differential between the two. Small cutting attacks on non-particle sized degrees are still counteracted by conventional durability because they aren't specifically attacking the fundamental structures that hold these particles together to form larger objects like bodies, which would be required to prove when discussing materially related Durability Negation. It's like saying a scalpel should have Durability Negation since it's a fine-point edge that doctors use to easily cut through flesh, it's nonsense.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Yammy just isn’t stronger than Byakuya, you haven’t proved any of that, you just stated your headcanon. You’re not even speaking proper English. Also, if you read Tsukishima’s profile or even read the fight, you’d know that Book of the End can enable Tsukishima to grow stronger by inserting himself into a past where he trains. Also, Ichigo’s Fullbring surpasses his old Bankai which is Res Yammy level. Ichigo’s Fullbring Bankai is tier 5, way above Yammy. None of your points support your claim at all. Please read the profiles again.
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I disagree with what is written in Ichigo's Fullbringer AP description.

1) How do Ginjo and Tsukishima know how strong Ichigo was with the powers he used to have?

2) Even if Ginjo says he surpassed Shinigami powers, that would make Completed Fullbringer Ichigo>Shinigami Ichigo against Grimmjow at most. Ichigo needed both Bankai and hollow mask to defeat Res Grimmjow. Ginjo hasn't even seen Ichigo using his Shinigami powers.

3) Are Ginjo and Tsukshima characters who can read power levels?

Ichigo's form against Yammy was weakened. He just got out of the fight with Uluqiorra. He also has his Hollow Mask when he hits Yammy. Later, when he is caught by Yammy, his Hollow Mask is gone.

Considering Yammy's size slowed him down, it makes sense that Byakuya was able to stand up to him. Despite the huge speed difference, Byakuya and Zaraki were covered in blood by the end of the battle.
Myxenete said:
as I mentioned before Kisuke is getting stronger as the story progresses anyway.
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As far as I understand, you think that the character is stronger than before in Fake Karakura Town because Urahara's AP explanation is a misinterpretation.

1) Aizen and Urahara were never mentioned as equals. When Aizen said "our powers are no longer equal", he meant that I am a being that surpasses Shinigami and you are still a shinigami. The word "power" is not used in the sense of AP here. If Shikai Urahara is at Aizen's level anyway, why was Shikai Urahara inadequate against Askin? He felt the need to use Bankai against Askin. Even Grimmjow had enough AP to penetrate Askin (Only as AP, he would still lose to Askin in a possible fight)
CFYOW It is stated that Grimmjow is still weaker than Barragan and Without Hogyoku Aizen>>>Barragan.

2) Aizen's statement "If it wasn't for the Hogyoku, I would have died" is said because Aizen's attack was used against Aizen. Urahara doesn't do it with his own AP.

But I agree with this point, Urahara's Kido AP could be Aizen level.

So it would make more sense for Urahara to have 6-B Physical and 5-C AP with Kido.

Another important point is that Aizen knows that there are people in the Living World who know their strength such as Shikai Urahara, Shunko Yoruichi and Isshin, but he still sends Uluqiorra and thinks that Uluqiorra can return without dying.

Holding Back Base Uluqiorra deflected Urahara's attack with his bare hand without even using a zanpaktou.
 
Apollonir.Scale said:
But I agree with this point, Urahara's Kido AP could be Aizen level.

So it would make more sense for Urahara to have 6-B Physical and 5-C AP with Kido.
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ghost-modern-warfare2.gif
 
I wrote 6-B physical because that's how he is listed against Ulquiorra on his profile. High could also be 6-B or 6-A physical.
 
Apollonir.Scale said:
1) How do Ginjo and Tsukishima know how strong Ichigo was with the powers he used to have?
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Ichigo agrees with them about this and Tsukishima inserted himself into the past of Orihime so he indeed should have a good grasp of Ichigo's prior powers anyway,
Apollonir.Scale said:
Even if Ginjo says he surpassed Shinigami powers, that would make Completed Fullbringer Ichigo>Shinigami Ichigo against Grimmjow at most. Ichigo needed both Bankai and hollow mask to defeat Res Grimmjow. Ginjo hasn't even seen Ichigo using his Shinigami powers
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No? The peak of Ichigo's prior shinigami powers are from when he engaged Yammy and could match his strikes and break his balas
Apollonir.Scale said:
Are Ginjo and Tsukshima characters who can read power levels?
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Everyone can read power levels it came free with spiritual pressure sensing
Apollonir.Scale said:
Ichigo's form against Yammy was weakened. He just got out of the fight with Uluqiorra. He also has his Hollow Mask when he hits Yammy. Later, when he is caught by Yammy, his Hollow Mask is gone.
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This doesn't change what we have on our profiles whatsoever, yes Ichigo was weakened by his mental state so he's stronger than the feats that he shows in that battle which still makes him comparable to Yammy.

Apollonir.Scale said:
Considering Yammy's size slowed him down, it makes sense that Byakuya was able to stand up to him. Despite the huge speed difference, Byakuya and Zaraki were covered in blood by the end of the battle
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Yammy being slow is headcanon, as the cero espada at the very least his bala would be capable of tagging every other espada as he has to have a means of defeating them in order to be the strongest.
Apollonir.Scale said:
Aizen and Urahara were never mentioned as equals. When Aizen said "our powers are no longer equal", he meant that I am a being that surpasses Shinigami and you are still a shinigami. The word "power" is not used in the sense of AP here
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Aizen very explicitly calls out Kisuke in specific, he starts that conversation by saying 'You, I'm looking at you' to Kisuke, then talks about Kisuke being smarter than he ismaking it illogical for him to be speaking on shinigami as a whole and the prior statement before that is Aizen admitting intellectual inferiority to Kisuke in specific, prove that Aizen just randomly changed the subject of his sentence and immediatly reverted back to the prior subject after speaking on Shinigami as a whole. the term 'power' is always going to be taken to mean A.P per Occam's razor, unless you can provide logical, more likely reason for it to refer to something else in that context in specific.
Apollonir.Scale said:
If Shikai Urahara is at Aizen's level anyway, why was Shikai Urahara inadequate against Askin? He felt the need to use Bankai against Askin
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A. It simply means Vollstandig Askin is that strong, which is fine considering he scales to no one else and has no anti-feats
B. The only reason Askin is able to go on par with Kisuke is because of the Gift ball, so he doesn't fully scale to Kisuke and hence Aizen anyway.
Apollonir.Scale said:
Even Grimmjow had enough AP to penetrate Askin (Only as AP, he would still lose to Askin in a possible fight)
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This is just a blatantly highly uncharitable interpretation, the only reason this is possible is cause Askin is completly focused on his fight with Kisuke and gets off-guarded
Apollonir.Scale said:
But I agree with this point, Urahara's Kido AP could be Aizen level.

So it would make more sense for Urahara to have 6-B Physical and 5-C AP with Kido.
Click to expand...
Urahara's kido (notabkly Okasen) literally gets negged by Chrysallis Aizen's passive spiritual pressure, while Kisuke himself is able to get through it to hit hi, also Juzutsunagi explicitly does the second most damage to Chrysallis Aizen, putting it above Isshin's physicals which can push base Aizen to his limits
Apollonir.Scale said:
Another important point is that Aizen knows that there are people in the Living World who know their strength such as Shikai Urahara, Shunko Yoruichi and Isshin, but he still sends Uluqiorra and thinks that Uluqiorra can return without dying
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As I mentioned, Kisuke is getting stronger, Yoruichi at this point is rusty and was dead ass just locked in a death match by Soifon and Isshin hasn't been a shinigami in nearly 20 years at this point.
Apollonir.Scale said:
Holding Back Base Uluqiorra deflected Urahara's attack with his bare hand without even using a zanpaktou.
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As I said before, Kisuke explicitly made that attack to be similar to Yamy's cero, Base Ulq > Base Yammy is the most obvious thing ever, and doesn't change our ratings.
 
Apollonir.Scale said:
I disagree with what is written in Ichigo's Fullbringer AP description.

1) How do Ginjo and Tsukishima know how strong Ichigo was with the powers he used to have?

2) Even if Ginjo says he surpassed Shinigami powers, that would make Completed Fullbringer Ichigo>Shinigami Ichigo against Grimmjow at most. Ichigo needed both Bankai and hollow mask to defeat Res Grimmjow. Ginjo hasn't even seen Ichigo using his Shinigami powers.

3) Are Ginjo and Tsukshima characters who can read power levels?

Ichigo's form against Yammy was weakened. He just got out of the fight with Uluqiorra. He also has his Hollow Mask when he hits Yammy. Later, when he is caught by Yammy, his Hollow Mask is gone.
Click to expand...
You know... they've been following Ichigo's steps from the beginning and are aware of basically everything that has happened to him. From Substitute Shinigami's Badge to Ichigo's Dad Past, his nature and the nature of Ichigo's power; and the only thing that seems impossible to you is they wouldn't be able to have a way to comprehend how much power he had?

Why would that make only stronger than Pre-Ulquiorra Ichigo's powers? You are arbitrarily choosing this for non reason at all, it would seem; but guiding us by context and their statements, it's just obvious that they are referring to his peak performance.

Considering Yammy's size slowed him down, it makes sense that Byakuya was able to stand up to him. Despite the huge speed difference, Byakuya and Zaraki were covered in blood by the end of the battle.
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Him being slower doesn't mean Byakuya would be able to hurt him or anything, and the thing you say at the end actually shows that it didn't give Byakuya any advantage over Yammy, as he was actually able to hit him and keep up with both in his Máxima Resurrección.
As far as I understand, you think that the character is stronger than before in Fake Karakura Town because Urahara's AP explanation is a misinterpretation.

1) Aizen and Urahara were never mentioned as equals. When Aizen said "our powers are no longer equal", he meant that I am a being that surpasses Shinigami and you are still a shinigami. The word "power" is not used in the sense of AP here. If Shikai Urahara is at Aizen's level anyway, why was Shikai Urahara inadequate against Askin? He felt the need to use Bankai against Askin. Even Grimmjow had enough AP to penetrate Askin (Only as AP, he would still lose to Askin in a possible fight)
CFYOW It is stated that Grimmjow is still weaker than Barragan and Without Hogyoku Aizen>>>Barragan.

2) Aizen's statement "If it wasn't for the Hogyoku, I would have died" is said because Aizen's attack was used against Aizen. Urahara doesn't do it with his own AP.

But I agree with this point, Urahara's Kido AP could be Aizen level.

So it would make more sense for Urahara to have 6-B Physical and 5-C AP with Kido.

Another important point is that Aizen knows that there are people in the Living World who know their strength such as Shikai Urahara, Shunko Yoruichi and Isshin, but he still sends Uluqiorra and thinks that Uluqiorra can return without dying.

Holding Back Base Uluqiorra deflected Urahara's attack with his bare hand without even using a zanpaktou.
Click to expand...
Just showing you are trying to make a long explanation and overcomplicating the intricacies from Aizen's statement is all we need to know which one interpretation is more plausible to be true. Urahara at the end of the series is shown to be a powerhouse between the Shinigamis, not only from his feats against Aizen, Aizen's statement and Urahara's feats against Askin, but because Urahara was the only person Tokinada feared the most in CFYOW to the point of not even wanting to talk with him after he was captured by Yukio and Aura, saying that he would die by a single Kidō from Urahara.
 
Fact: Byakuya is such a capable character that no other espada could defeat him. In fact, he would easily defeat SE Ulquiorra, with almost no difficulty, because Ulquiorra can't even inflict significant damage to him via direct statements.

Fact:
it was stated that part of the reason Yammy is worthy of being the 0 espada is he was able to inflict severe wounds on Byakuya. This means that literally no other espada would fight and inflict severe wounds on him.

statement:
Due to his disregarding personality, not only from both friends and foes alike inside and outside but also his true hidden abilities are taken lightly. He took on both Byakuya Kuchiki and Kenpachi Zaraki, two major leaders of the Gotei 13, and inflicted severe wounds on both of them, making his power worthy for the position as the Cero Espada.

Unless you think Byakuya is a tank with durability far exceeding that of his own strongest attack, he can tank a lanza and deal more damage than one.
 
Guacamolefletcher said:
statement:
Due to his disregarding personality, not only from both friends and foes alike inside and outside but also his true hidden abilities are taken lightly. He took on both Byakuya Kuchiki and Kenpachi Zaraki, two major leaders of the Gotei 13, and inflicted severe wounds on both of them, making his power worthy for the position as the Cero Espada.
Click to expand...
Nuh-Huh , that statement clearly mean that Zaraki accounted for 99.99999999999% of the feat and byakuya was the rest.
 
Apollonir.Scale said:
Ichigo's form against Yammy was weakened. He just got out of the fight with Uluqiorra. He also has his Hollow Mask when he hits Yammy. Later, when he is caught by Yammy, his Hollow Mask is gone.
Click to expand...
There is no indication of it being weaker than he was pre-rebirth. In fact, what we do have shows that a full-power striped mask Ichigo can damage Gin Ichimaru, who is strongly implied to be more capable than the espada. Also, he was just at 50% when that happened, given an explicit statement.

Apollonir.Scale said:
So it would make more sense for Urahara to have 6-B Physical and 5-C AP with Kido.
Click to expand...
No. It makes more sense that Urahara is Aizen level. Also, I forgot to mention that Tokinada thinks that Urahara can smoke him.
Apollonir.Scale said:
Holding Back Base Uluqiorra deflected Urahara's attack with his bare hand without even using a zanpaktou.
Click to expand...
Ok Clyde... There are no statements which say Urahara can't get stronger. Urahara at the start of the series was gonna die to Ichigo's first getsuga.


 
Transcendental destructive power!As Ichigo wields Zangetsu, tremendous spiritual power converges in his arm. At the moment his raised arm is swung down, Urahara, sensing the danger, barely defends himself with the technique of "Benihime" (Crimson Princess). Overwhelmed by the overwhelming destructive power, Urahara unintentionally lets out a sigh.
Click to expand...

Urahara was in very real danger, and wasn't bluffing about that first getsuga. Unless you think that first getsuga >>>> TYBW Urahara, you have to accept that he can get stronger.
 
Apollonir.Scale said:
1) Aizen and Urahara were never mentioned as equals. When Aizen said "our powers are no longer equal", he meant that I am a being that surpasses Shinigami and you are still a shinigami. The word "power" is not used in the sense of AP here.
Click to expand...
The bolded part is also wrong, because Aizen hadn't actually "transcended shinigami" yet, he only achieved this with Butterfly Aizen.

Apollonir.Scale said:
Another important point is that Aizen knows that there are people in the Living World who know their strength such as Shikai Urahara, Shunko Yoruichi and Isshin, but he still sends Uluqiorra and thinks that Uluqiorra can return without dying.
Click to expand...
This also means nothing, and it's yet another Clyde talking point. Shunko Yoruichi doesn't have any impressive scaling at this point, Urahara doesn't have impressive scaling either, and he isn't even talking about Isshin.

Also this would just mean that he thinks those people are 4th espada level, which is OK regardless, and doesn't gatekeep anything.
 
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