BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[ReaperAndBlues]

You two goobers quit it while you're ahead. This butting heads is only gonna get either of you in hot water once you go too far.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

You two goobers quit it while you're ahead. This butting heads is only gonna get either of you in hot water once you go too far.

No no, let them go on

 

[SilentBob34]

Or we just upscale the previous guys, its not something unreasonable.

base yama, base aizen and unohana should get scaled as well to shutara shaking, urahara as well likely, those 3 > are renji post RG and Byakuya.

Bankai Yama (SS buster) > Shikai Yama (bit weaker thank Bankai) > bankai renji < Shutara Shaking < Shutara Full Power

If we follow that Bankai Yama is a dimension buster, then shikai yama would be still extremely close to that, making people scaling to shikai Yama hell impressive.

I don’t think any pre skip character like Base Aizen should scale to post RG Renji especially with his new feats. It’d turn into a whole plethora of people scaling to 2C. Urahara for being his equal, Quilge via Urahara not being able to harm his while his Blut Vene is being used. FB Bankai Ichigo(which I wouldn’t mind) for clowning on Quilge. You could even use Liltotto’s statement of expecting VS Candice to be a good fight for FB Bankai Ichigo based on the data they had to upgrade the Bambi’s to 2C.

Just wait till the cour is over. Arc is right that there’s still a lot of things that can happen that’ll explain stuff and I trust his judgment on where to scale people

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

If the anime makes other people relative to Renji they’ll be relative. If not they won’t. We shall see. No use discussing potential scaling we have no idea will be true or not. At least no use coping about it, discuss whatever hypothetical you want

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

CFYOW explicitly stated that Yamamoto dominates, and unless Kubo outright contradicts it, which never happened, this is still likely true.

What? No it doesn't. Yamamoto is stated to be stronger than the characters present (besides Kenpachi) and the heads of the Four Great Noble Houses, but Renji is a) not present for any of Bleach: Can't Fear Your Own World and b) he's not the head of one the Noble Houses.

 

[Hellscream]

Renji is not stronger than yamamoto lol, get your head out of the clouds

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Renji is not stronger than yamamoto lol, get your head out of the clouds

If he is or isn't stronger than Renji isn't the point, the point is that using Can't Fear Your Own World to argue that Yamamoto is stronger than Renji doesn't work.

But I also think Renji is stronger than Yamamoto right now. If that gets proven wrong later, cool, that's fine with me.

 

[Saibotsan]

Renji scaling will depend on if he gets one shot by Gerard or not

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Klub Outside
Q660
十の入れ替わりって藍染が決めているのでしょうか？それとも剣ハみたく決闘で勝った方に藍染が数字を与えるとか？

A660
どちらのパターンもあります。

Translation ChatGTP

Q660
Did Aizen change the members of the Espada at his own discretion? Or, like the title of Kenpachi, did Aizen assign the number to the winner of a duel?

A660
Both options are possible.

He said both are possible, however, given what has been stated, it's unequivocally them being ranked on their literal attack potency. I don't think I can post it here, but I wrote like a several thousand word dissertation on why this is the case, based on the sum of statements we were given. I made it in another wiki, but it's not "for another wiki," it was for a place where you can post your own work and it's still distinctly yours.

My alternate world headcanon is that Barragan's rating was probably spite, however, databooks disagrees with that, although it would be hella funny if Aizen made him number two out of spite of his defiance. He has proven to be petty at times.

This is a very popular headcanon, but unfortunately it's not true.

Baraggan rank 1, Ulquiorra rank 2, Yammy rank 3, Starrk rank 4

Starrk / yammy can swap places depending on which one you believe is stronger

Ah, maybe i should call baraggan rank 0 instead

No. Ulquiorra 5, Harribel 4, Baraggan 3, Starrk 2, Yammy 1.

CFYOW doesn't matter, the anime will always take precedence

This is the incorrect mindset

 

[Hellscream]

No. Ulquiorra 5, Harribel 4, Baraggan 3, Starrk 2, Yammy 1

Yes.

Harribel is the weakest of all the mentioned characters.
Ulquiorra's segunda etapa was not counted towards the actual rankings of the espada, so it's essentially another 5-10x boost.

And even with that, none of the characters mentioned before are getting past baraggan's hax

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Harribel is the weakest of all the mentioned characters.
Ulquiorra's segunda etapa was not counted towards the actual rankings of the espada, so it's essentially another 5-10x boost.

This is factually untrue, because it's explicitly stated in a databook that even with the power he displayed, he was still only worthy of being the 4th espada

 

[Damage3245]

This is factually untrue, because it's explicitly stated in a databook that even with the power he displayed, he was still only worthy of being the 4th espada

Do you have a scan of that?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Renji is not stronger than yamamoto lol, get your head out of the clouds

If the anime doesn’t provide some connective scaling for Yama to be above Renji, then yes Renji is stronger. So atm considering Renji scales in an absolute vacuum in the anime, as of this past episode Renji beats the dog out of Yama. Before you say “but Yama is stronger than Byakuya!!!”, Renji currently beats the dog out of Byakuya too lmao.

But for all you people who can’t stop crying about Renji getting some spotlight. There is a very real world in which we have sumn like this: Shikai Yama/base Aizen tier characters > RG Byakuya > RG Renji ~ Uryu < Uryu with Blut (5-10x) ~ Shutara. And in that case you’d have a handful of characters being about an order of magnitude weaker than Squad 0 Bankai level characters. If that does happen, all I’ll say is Gremmy scaling to his galaxy room, would become so much more consistent. So, honestly, all of y’all that have been fiending for the higher tier Gremmy and Yama scaling all these years, should be thanking Renji. Since if it happens, it’ll happen because of Renji lmao.

 

[Hellscream]

This is factually untrue, because it's explicitly stated in a databook that even with the power he displayed, he was still only worthy of being the 4th espada

What databook would that be?

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Yes.

Harribel is the weakest of all the mentioned characters.
Ulquiorra's segunda etapa was not counted towards the actual rankings of the espada, so it's essentially another 5-10x boost.

And even with that, none of the characters mentioned before are getting past baraggan's hax

Factually false. SAFWY confirms that the Espada are accurately ranked and even Ulquiorra himself stated that there were three Espada that were stronger than him.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Do you have a scan of that?

Yes, but I don't have access to it right now. I swear this is gonna sound like the ultimate "source: I made it up" moment ever, but I have it in my scan server, and only have discord downloaded on another PC

 

[Hellscream]

Factually false. SAFWY confirms that the Espada are accurately ranked and even Ulquiorra himself stated that there were three Espada that were stronger than him.

You mean the ranking based on reiatsu, not overall combat ability?
So you'd have Ulquiorra, who's first release is capable of putting him at the 4th place, and believe his second release wouldn't boost that status?
Would you mind proving Ulquiorra was including his secondary transformation in the rankings, which he deliberately kept hidden from Aizen?

 

[Damage3245]

Factually false. SAFWY confirms that the Espada are accurately ranked and even Ulquiorra himself stated that there were three Espada that were stronger than him.

I don't want to get into a huge debate about this but I will just say that it seems self-evident that statement was made without taking into account Yammy's Resurrección or Ulquiorra's second Resurrección. At the time Ulquiorra was ranked 4th and he would've just been referring to there being a 3rd, 2nd and 1st Espada above him.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

You mean the ranking based on reiatsu, not overall combat ability?

This is also not what they're ranked on.

So you'd have Ulquiorra, who's first release is capable of putting him at the 4th place, and believe his second release wouldn't boost that status?
Would you mind proving Ulquiorra was including his secondary transformation in the rankings, which he kept hidden from Aizen?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this is a fallacious type of argument known as "appeal to ignorance," where you assume your position { that being that the transformation isn't counted and that it wouldn't be included because it's a "secret" } is correct until proven otherwise.

Here is a simple scaling chain:

Yammy < Byakuya (Hueco Mundo Saga) < Byakuya (post-training) >~ Shunsui (TYBW) = Shunsui (FKT) >~ Starrk

I don't want to get into a huge debate about this but I will just say that it seems self-evident that statement was made without taking into account Yammy's Resurrecciónor Ulquiorra's second Resurrección. At the time Ulquiorra was ranked 4th and he would've just been referring to there being a 3rd, 2nd and 1st Espada above him.

Ulquiorra isn't confirmed to have known Yammy's resureccion power

 

[Hellscream]

This is also not what they're ranked on.

No it's not lol, it's literally stated to be based on their reiatsu.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this is a fallacious type of argument known as "appeal to ignorance," where you assume your position { that being that the transformation isn't counted and that it wouldn't be included because it's a "secret" } is correct until proven otherwise.

It's not an assumption, it's directly statement, which makes your entire "ranking system" invalid, since the character you're arguing against doesn't even have his most powerful form included, as it was hidden.

Ulquiorra isn't confirmed to have known Yammy's resureccion power

And none of them know of Ulquiorra's powers either

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

No it's not lol, it's literally stated to be based on their reiatsu.

Find me one statement saying "reiatsu." They say "spiritual power," which = power in a spiritual being, and "combat power" / "fighting strength."

And none of them know of Ulquiorra's powers either

Yet they are considered greater than Ulquiorra's, and Databooks confirm that Starrk's sheer resureccion is worthy of the rank "1st espada."

 

[Hellscream]

Find me one statement saying "reiatsu"


Yet they are considered greater than Ulquiorra's, and Databooks confirm that Starrk's sheer resureccion is worthy of the rank "1st espada."

Honestly, you should just rewatch the arrancar arc in it's entirety

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Honestly, you should just rewatch the arrancar arc in it's entirety

This is a type of fallacious argument called "shifting the burden of proof," where you shift the burden of disproving your claim to me, when it is your burden to prove it in the first place. You made the claim "they are simply ranked on reiatsu," and now it's your job to prove that.

 

[Hellscream]

This is a type of fallacious argument called "shifting the burden of proof," where you shift the burden of disproving your claim to me, when it is your burden to prove it in the first place. You made the claim "they are simply ranked on reiatsu," and now it's your job to prove that.

Hush now, time to rewatch the arrancar arc

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Hush now, time to rewatch the arrancar arc

"ranked according to their spiritual powers." spiritual power =/= reiatsu.

 

[Hellscream]

This dude fr?

 

[Damage3245]

If neither of you are going to convince the other here, maybe just drop it for now and be content in your own interpretations.

 

[Hellscream]

Brother, just stop while you're at it.

You don't even know Reiryoku, which is the source of reiatsu.
The higher your Reiryoku, the more reiatsu you exert.

Just rewatch the entirety of bleach at this point.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Well, looks like that if Renji is getting upgraded should over character above him be the same?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Well, looks like that if Renji is getting upgraded should over character above him be the same?

Depends on what other new scaling we get. But if the anime makes other characters above him, then yes they probably would get upgraded.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Depends on what other new scaling we get. But if the anime makes other characters above him, then yes they probably would get upgraded.

Don't tell me that Kenpachi or Byakuya will be below Renji for example

 

[LordTracer]

Don't tell me that Kenpachi or Byakuya will be below Renji for example

If they don’t have the feats to scale above him, then they won’t scale above him.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Don't tell me that Kenpachi or Byakuya will be below Renji for example

Kenpachi still has CFYOW scaling, but TYBW Kenny's scaling will hinge on how the anime plays out.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Don't tell me that Kenpachi or Byakuya will be below Renji for example

It's possible.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

I think some of you are forgetting that Bankai Renji (almost) fought against Soul King Yhwach in the manga. It's possible that that still happens in the anime, but this time, Renji actually fights him, which would automatically put Bankai Renji above almost every character in the franchise.

Anyway, I should stop here because Arc is right, we just have to wait and see what happens.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Don't tell me that Kenpachi or Byakuya will be below Renji for example

We will have to wait and see

 

[Malekith]

Orihime, when separated from Ichigo, will probably find Renji and the others almost dead? It's the only explanation I see about them coming back, in this all Renji and the others find Gerard and the fight eventually happens

 

[PerezosoUlixes]

Baraggan rank 1, Ulquiorra rank 2, Yammy rank 3, Starrk rank 4

Starrk / yammy can swap places depending on which one you believe is stronger

Ah, maybe i should call baraggan rank 0 instead

Ulquiorra???

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

According to Cien, who has knowledge on all the Espada, the 3 strongest things (excluding himself and Aizen) in the Espada were Yammy’s full power Res, Starrk’s wolves, and Barragan’s Respira. So we know Yammy, Starrk, and Barragan all have techniques or forms above Ulquiorra (consistent with Ulq saying 3 people are above him). Whether or not you think Halibel beats SE Ulq is highly debatable, honestly it’s a pretty good in verse debate because I don’t think there’s a clear cut answer, both have good arguments.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, there'll always be a degree of interpretation to it too.