BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[ReaperAndBlues]

Renji simply doesn’t scale to 2C version of uryu, he didn't face this version.

Yes, he did fight a 2-C Uryu. Complete Vollstandig>Incomplete Vollstandig (using the logic of its completion making him more powerful)>Bankai Senjumaru

And uryu simply doesn’t scale to emotionally balanced ichigo. Even base ichigo.

Uh, yes he does. Uryu still was able to hurt Ichigo regardless of him being emotionally conflicted. If you were shot with a gun while sad or scared, you'd still take the same damage the bullet would deal if you weren't. Slightly clashing with Getsuga Jujishou also is a very impressive feat becauew this same GJ broke through Yhwach's Sankt Zwinger effortlessly. Argue all you want, Uryu still scales to Ichigo, just that he downscales as Ichigo would've won given he went all out (seeing as even a conflicted Ichigo's Getsuga Jujishou still eventually overpowered Sternenstaub)

Yeah kenpachis might be obvious anomaly but yama and aizen has been constantly potrait to be the peak of shinigami within soul society.

Normal Shinigami. We're talking about Renji after Squad 0's training, in which he also was given special food that increased his reiatsu AND trained to awaken his true Bankai. No other person in the Gotei has ever received this training unless they were going to become a member themselves. Logically there are many ways you can come up with support for scaling above captain Aizen and Yamamoto.

Renji beating shunsui, yamamoto, base aizen is hella funny. He ain't even taking on rukia.

Based on feats, he puts them all in a pack. None of their shit is tagging him when he's far faster than them (fair reminder Base Uryu kept up with True Shikai Ichigo), and Zagaitekko is obliterating them.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Another thing too, Renji seems to have the same or a similar symbiotic relationship with his Zanpakuto like Ichigo and Aizen. When Renji ran out of power, his Bankai looked like it peeled from his skin, as if he willed it himself as a part of him. Not to mention he also wasn't holding the blade either, he just raw used it.

 

[Adam1396]

Yes, he did fight a 2-C Uryu. Complete Vollstandig>Incomplete Vollstandig>(using the logic of its completion making him more powerful)>Bankai Senjumaru

Uh, yes he does. Uryu still was able to hurt Ichigo regardless of him being emotionally conflicted. If you were shot with a gun while sad or scared, you'd still take the same damage the bullet would deal if you weren't. Slightly clashing with Getsuga Jujishou also is a very impressive feat becauew this same GJ broke through Yhwach's Sankt Zwinger effortlessly. Argue all you want, Uryu still scales to Ichigo, just that he downscales as Ichigo would've won given he went all out (seeing as even a conflicted Ichigo's Getsuga Jujishou still eventually overpowered Sternenstaub)

Normal Shinigami. We're talking about Renji after Squad 0's training, in which he also was given special food that increased his reiatsu AND trained to awaken his true Bankai. No other person in the Gotei has ever received this training unless they were going to become a member themselves. Logically there are many ways you can come up with support for scaling above captain Aizen and Yamamoto.

Based on feats, he puts them all in a pack. None of their shit is tagging him when he's far faster than them (fair reminder Base Uryu kept up with True Shikai Ichigo), and Zagaitekko is obliterating them.

This is wrong. We see back then uryu was struggling to contain the power. Later yhwach nerfed them again so that he cut cut the crystal and absorb reio.
Above bankai senjumaru? Shutara was using fraction of her power. Even his scaling to senjumaru itself is arguable since he one shotted a shut down shutara.

This comparison is nonsensial. Ichigo had transcendent level of reiryoku back in fake karakura town, the reason why he was able to sense aizen. But was almost fodderised by Gin. So back then he didn’t scale to aizen until he was utilizing his innate reiroku. Ultimately ap, dur depends on how much amount of reiroku the character is using which is reatsu. That's the case here. Ichigo was in extremely nerfed state.

As I've addressed above the feats and scaling is questionable. Don't worry anime itself will debunk such nonsensial notion.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

This is wrong. We see back then uryu was struggling to contain the power. Later yhwach nerfed them again so that he cut cut the crystal and absorb reio.

We don't know if this took his power, this is headcanon until it's proven true.

Above bankai senjumaru? Shutara was using fraction of her power.

A fraction of her power huh? That fraction is still 2-C, because an even weaker fraction shook the three worlds. I don't see how this changes anything. In fact, we see her try harder when Uryu escaped because Senju had to dodge and starting pulling out shit rather than just finger flick him. Also Uryu fought an Ichigo who is slightly superior to Post-Almighty Yhwach, who is massively superior to Ichibei, who is superior to her. Even if he was emotionally distressed, that is an entire one shot gap above her.

Even his scaling to senjumaru itself is arguable since he one shotted a shut down shutara.

She was still in her Bankai. She wasn't nerfed to Black Ant level. Getting one shotted is purely showing superiority.

This comparison is nonsensial. Ichigo had transcendent level of reiryoku back in fake karakura town, the reason why he was able to sense aizen.

He couldn't tap into that power because of Zangetsu.

But was almost fodderised by Gin.

Acting like Ichigo wasn't in a similar or possibly even worse mindset. Also, Ichigo still gave him a tough time even while he was having a fit.

So back then he didn’t scale to aizen until he was utilizing his innate reiroku.

Aizen was also, you know, not that strong yet. That Aizen wasn't as strong as the one Ichigo fought when he left the Dangai.

Ultimately ap, dur depends on how much amount of reiroku the character is using which is reatsu. That's the case here. Ichigo was in extremely nerfed state.

An extremely nerfed Ichigo would still one shot Yamamoto, so no matter what your roundabout reasoning says, Ichigo is still superior and always will be. A bear without fangs still has claws. Uryu fighting this Ichigo and not only hurting but threatening his life are better feats than Yama will ever do. Renji's full power is also limited too, he can't use it willy nilly like Ichigo, it's only one move/instance where he's that strong. It's not like he's that powerful overall.

As I've addressed above the feats and scaling is questionable. Don't worry anime itself will debunk such nonsensial notion.

The anime might go and debunk this if it wants, but your condescending tone won't change anything, Pierrot and Kubo will DECIDE that, so until then, this "nonsensical notion" is truth.

 

[Adam1396]

We don't know if this took his power, this is headcanon until it's proven true.

They visibly shared their power and yhwach's statement implies so.

A fraction of her power huh? That fraction is still 2-C, because an even weaker fraction shook the three worlds. I don't see how this changes anything.

I know

She was still in her Bankai. She wasn't nerfed to Black Ant level. Getting one shotted is purely showing superiority.

She doesn’t have to be nerfed to black ant level to be one shotted by uryu. Or are you implying uryu is slightly above black ant level!!
She was incaped and paralyzed. Any gotei captain would have one shotted her in such state.

He couldn't tap into that power becausenof Zangetsu.

Acting like Ichigo wasn't in a similar or possibly even worse mindset.

Doesn’t change what I said. He is a fodder despite having transcendent level energy dormant inside him.

Aizen was also, you know, not that strong yet. That Aizen wasn't as strong as the one Ichigo fought when he left the Dangai.

This doesn’t affect my point in the slightest.

An extremely nerfed Ichigo would still one shot Yamamoto, so no matter what your roundabout reasoning says, Ichigo is still superior and always will be. A bear without fangs still has claws. Uryu fighting this Ichigo and not only hurting but threatening his life are better feats than Yama will ever do. Renji's full power is also limited too, he can't use it willy nilly like Ichigo, it's only one move/instance where he's that strong. It's not like he's that powerful overall.

An extremely nerfed ichigo can be heavily damaged by even vice captain level.

The anime might go and debunk this if it wants, but your condescending tone won't change anything, Pierrot and Kubo will DECIDE that, so until then, this "nonsensical notion" is truth.

Ok go ahead and try make that happen. I will debunk it any day not that I would have to since it would be contradicted later (more like your takes would be outright proven wrong).
That's still nonsensial.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

They visibly shared their power and yhwach's statement implies so.

Again, this is speculation, we don't know that until we are given confirmation. That scene could just be flowery language. Plus the other Schutstaffel aren't as strong as Uryu feat wise so far, and were not implied to have gotten stronger when Yhwach freed them.

She doesn’t have to be nerfed to black ant level to be one shotted by uryu. Or are you implying uryu is slightly above black ant level!!
She was incaped and paralyzed. Any gotei captain would have one shotted her in such state.

I'm not even going to entertain this. Yamamoto wouldn't scratch Bankai Senjumaru even with her arms and legs cut off, and that state she was in is not as bad as you're blowing it up to be. By that logic since the Soul King is completely paralyzed and already mutilted, Soi Fon could destory him. She is literal INFINITIES above him in power, and she wasn't paralyzed and incapacitated, she was restrained.

Doesn’t change what I said. He is a fodder despite having transcendent level energy dormant inside him.

"Dormant" so he didn't have it. There. He wasn't transcendant, case and point.

This doesn’t affect my point in the slightest.

Yes, it does because you are claiming base Aizen could still beat current Renji. That Aizen wasn't transcendant nor SK level, Ichigo not scaling to him only is applicable to before he reached that state, at that point Yama did hurt him, and he isn't transcendant.

An extremely nerfed ichigo can be heavily damaged by even vice captain level.

You would need context to how nerfed. Ichigo being explicitly nerfed to that level with direct statements of such could be the case, but not one that upscales from Yhwach without quantification or any literal statement. A captain-level Candice got her attack no-sold by an Ichigo holding back far more than he did against Uryu, so I don't see why a vice captain could.

Ok go ahead and try make that happen. I will debunk it any day not that I would have to since it would be contradicted later

I won't be making that happen, you'll have to take that up with Arc when he does revisions later. I'll be there to debunk your points as well if I wish to.

(more like your takes would be outright proven wrong).

Yet to be seen buddy, you could be proven just as if not more wrong than me as you claim.

That's still nonsensial.

Refer to the comment about the logic behind Renji's scaling. He has multiple different ways he could be logically backed up for bring that strong. Yamamoto nor Aizen never had that kind of training. Is it a little weird? Maybe. Completely nonsense? No, as there are justifications.

Now it's 3am for me here so I'm hitting the sack.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Q&A Klub Outside

Q: When Hitsugaya faced Aizen in the Central Execution Grounds, Aizen defeated Hitsugaya but did not attack Unohana or Isane and instead moved to the Sokyoku.

Was it because Aizen thought he could not win against Unohana?

A: I don’t think he believed he couldn’t win, but he was certain it would require a great deal of effort.

what question is this? Find the raws or it didn't happen

 

[Peterdenman156]

what question is this? Find the raws or it didn't happen

As l understand it, Kubo intended to convey that Aizen at that time would have had a fairly difficult time fighting Unohana, so he avoided an unnecessary battle.


Unohana could probably hold her own against Base Aizen, but she wouldn't win.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

As l understand it, Kubo intended to convey that Aizen at that time would have had a fairly difficult time fighting Unohana, so he avoided an unnecessary battle.


Unohana could probably hold her own against Base Aizen, but she wouldn't win.

it's a fake comment, there's a 0.01% chance it's real

Thoughts on this? the Bleach Wiki has always had a hate boner for Narita's novels

• The novel notably contradicts the anime's version of the Soul King's history; in the novel the Soul King was betrayed by the Five Noble Ancestors, then sealed away and mutilated, and then the worlds were separated when the ancestors forcibly used the Soul King's powers.[47] In the anime, the Soul King separated the worlds by himself and was then dismembered, without anyone aside from Ichibē Hyōsube being present.[1]

 

[Peterdenman156]

it's a fake comment, there's a 0.01% chance it's real

Nah, I got it from the latest Q&A in Klub Outside. Of course, it's not a fake question.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Renji got some of yall crying

 

[Damage3245]

Renji got some of yall crying

Did they forget? Renji has been training to be able to no-diff Aizen.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’ll say it once again tho. Can yall stop coping so hard we have so many more episodes to go, so much more content to get, so much potential for further extrapolation right. Maybe it gets revealed that despite Uryu’s bravado he was holding back, and all yall that don’t like Renji being strong are vindicated, maybe Renji ends up being just that strong. Who tf cares, stop whining like the end times is coming because the anime introduced something new that conflicts with your current headcanon. It’s just not that deep.

 

[Adam1396]

Again, this is speculation, we don't know that until we are given confirmation. That scene could just be flowery language. Plus the other Schutstaffel aren't as strong as Uryu feat wise so far, and were not implied to have gotten stronger when Yhwach freed them..

Flower language? So you have to go with universal excuse.

I'm not even going to entertain this. Yamamoto wouldn't scratch Bankai Senjumaru even with her arms and legs cut off, and that state she was in is not as bad as you're blowing it up to be. By that logic since the Soul King is completely paralyzed and already mutilted, Soi Fon could destory him. She is literal INFINITIES above him in power, and she wasn't paralyzed and incapacitated, she was restrained.

Then you are totally misunderstanding how antithesis work. Senjumary was incaped and paralized, things switched with senju.
Yeah I'm gonna make bambi scales to zaraki.

"Dormant" so he didn't have it. There. He wasn't transcendant, case and point.

Yes, it does because you are claiming base Aizen could still beat current Renji. That Aizen wasn't transcendant nor SK level, Ichigo not scaling to him only is applicable to before he reached that state, at that point Yama did hurt him, and he isn't transcendant.

So you succesfully failed to address that argument. Ichigo also has dormant reio tier power now. He is not always using that level of power.

You would need context to how nerfed. Ichigo being explicitly nerfed to that level with direct statements of such could be the case, but not one that upscales from Yhwach without quantification or any literal statement. A captain-level Candice got her attack no-sold by an Ichigo holding back far more than he did against Uryu, so I don't see why a vice captain could.

His getsuga only negated candice's attack while it should have overwhelmed by mergin.
Guess now candice scales to ichigo as well by your logic since she parried with ichigo too.
I'm sure we can find a lot more case about holding back and not having direct statement about holding back.

I won't be making that happen, you'll have to take that up with Arc when he does revisions later. I'll be there to debunk your points as well if I wish to.

Yet to be seen buddy, you could be proven just as if not more wrong than me as you claim.

Refer to the comment about the logic behind Renji's scaling. He has multiple different ways he could be logically backed up for bring that strong. Yamamoto nor Aizen never had that kind of training. Is it a little weird? Maybe. Completely nonsense? No, as there are justifications.

Now it's 3am for me here so I'm hitting the sack.

That's not the only way for me to debunk such takes.
Not that their upgrade would hurt me at all. I will just make more upgrade of more characters using your threads as basis and I don’t care who makes the post. It will become like dbs.

 

[PerezosoUlixes]

I’ll say it once again tho. Can yall stop coping so hard we have so many more episodes to go, so much more content to get, so much potential for further extrapolation right. Maybe it gets revealed that despite Uryu’s bravado he was holding back, and all yall that don’t like Renji being strong are vindicated, maybe Renji ends up being just that strong. Who tf cares, stop whining like the end times is coming because the anime introduced something new that conflicts with your current headcanon. It’s just not that deep.

Yeah, people are jumping on conclusions nobody is certain as of now. Everybody should just wait until this or next Cour ends, then we'll see if everything makes sense or not.

Just to emphasize something, Renji doesn't have any feat or involvement in CFYOW, so as far as we know him scaling above some characters/captains wouldn't change anything.

 

[Ped2018]

Just saw the Unohana Q&A... Raven really won

 

[Tyri456]

Or we just upscale the previous guys, its not something unreasonable.

base yama, base aizen and unohana should get scaled as well to shutara shaking, urahara as well likely, those 3 > are renji post RG and Byakuya.

Bankai Yama (SS buster) > Shikai Yama (bit weaker thank Bankai) > bankai renji < Shutara Shaking < Shutara Full Power

If we follow that Bankai Yama is a dimension buster, then shikai yama would be still extremely close to that, making people scaling to shikai Yama hell impressive.

 

[Blallooo]

Just saw the Unohana Q&A... Raven really won

It doesn't change a lot tbh. Instead of getting slammed in 5 seconds she gets slammed in 5 minutes. Aizen still gaps

 

[LordTracer]

Just saw the Unohana Q&A... Raven really won

She wanted to put Unohana above Aizen and Yamamoto, so no. Aizen’s still stronger than her, the Q&A just means the gap between them is smaller than we previously thought.

 

[Ped2018]

She wanted to put Unohana above Aizen and Yamamoto

Oh... Her wanking was bigger than i remembered

 

[Naeblis495]

It's crazy the lenghts people go to. Even going as far as saying the fights are not canon because they refuse to even entertain the idea of Renji being strong.

And it's not like he do not have solid justifications either. He trained with D0 and learned his true bankai. It's not like it was Ikkaku scaling to D0 with normal training and a bankai in pieces.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Just saw the Unohana Q&A... Raven really won

that literally would be her not winning, because Aizen would win for sure. That's not what Raven argued

She wanted to put Unohana above Aizen and Yamamoto, so no. Aizen’s still stronger than her, the Q&A just means the gap between them is smaller than we previously thought.

This also perfectly slots into the scaling we had (I passed) addressing Kid Kenpachi and Post-Training Kenpachi. It'd make sense that someone who can No-diff Unohana can defeat fake Yhwach.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Just saw the Unohana Q&A... Raven really won

Raven wanted to scale Unohana above Aizen, not relative, so she didn't win.

 

[Adam1396]

Unohana would be downscaling from aizen

 

[Peterdenman156]

 

[Naeblis495]

I keep noticing that Uryu's voll still do not have the Halo like the others.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

I keep noticing that Uryu's voll still do not have the Halo like the others.

Could probably be a product of him being a Geschmit Quincy

 

[Bastolan27]

Or we just upscale the previous guys, its not something unreasonable.

base yama, base aizen and unohana should get scaled as well to shutara shaking, urahara as well likely, those 3 > are renji post RG and Byakuya.

Bankai Yama (SS buster) > Shikai Yama (bit weaker thank Bankai) > bankai renji < Shutara Shaking < Shutara Full Power

If we follow that Bankai Yama is a dimension buster, then shikai yama would be still extremely close to that, making people scaling to shikai Yama hell impressive.

Never speak again; that would literally make Fullbring Bankai Ichigo 2-C, so please stop and accept the Yama L

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

translation needed

 

[Khaostichny]

translation needed

GT: "The new battles being added to the current anime are "adding things that we wanted to draw in the serialization," I've never said that before, so I wonder who first said that...? They're simply adding in the missing time as fan service..."

 

[Malekith]

Kubo didn't plan these battles in advance, the producers gave ideas, Kubo made the draft as he always has, they brought the battle back, he approved it and everything was fine. The battle not being something he would have added to the manga doesn't mean he didn't supervise and approve what was put into the anime

 

[Tyri456]

Never speak again; that would literally make Fullbring Bankai Ichigo 2-C, so please stop and accept the Yama L

“Never speak again” very kind attitude towards debate, why don’t you counter what I say? It’s a discussion and people need to be open minded and see other options as well, not only just fight to be right.

the shaking isn’t 2C, her full power is 2C. I think that’s an important difference we are not acknowledging.

Do you realise Yama has a direct dimension-busting statement written by the author right?…
Yet you seriously think Renj, who couldn’t even scratch Uryu is more deserving of a universal tier? That’s laughably ironic as much as thinking rukia is million times weaker than him. Narrative wise Renji wasn’t even stronger than base Yhwach when he landed with Rukia.

If you genuinely think Bankai Yamamoto or Fullbring Ichigo are less deserving of a 2C tier than Renji, then your understanding of Bleach is severely lacking. CFYOW explicitly stated that Yamamoto dominates, and unless Kubo outright contradicts it, which never happened, this is still likely true.

I’m glad some people liked my comment because yeah I can see how much people which are not familiar with bleach lore scaling are talking here.

And given the only thing I can read is “cope about Renji” more like “cope about Yama”, I’m not even dismissing Renji downscaling from Shutara shaking, simple those people which where superior in the scaling, still scale above.

I’ve been here for a long time, and I challenge anyone to dig through and post proof of how many times I’ve been wrong about Bleach, spoiler: it’s not happening. To tell someone like me to “never speak again” is laughable. But again we can wait time and see who’s right.

 

[AppleLord]

Anime is not canon. Filler scenes.

 

[Peterdenman156]

Klub Outside
Q660
十の入れ替わりって藍染が決めているのでしょうか？それとも剣ハみたく決闘で勝った方に藍染が数字を与えるとか？

A660
どちらのパターンもあります。

Translation ChatGTP

Q660
Did Aizen change the members of the Espada at his own discretion? Or, like the title of Kenpachi, did Aizen assign the number to the winner of a duel?

A660
Both options are possible.

 

[Khaostichny]

Anime is not canon. Filler scenes.

If Kubo as the author and member of the anime's directorship approved it, then it is canon. Furthermore, we don't even know what battles this statement covers.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Klub Outside
Q660
十の入れ替わりって藍染が決めているのでしょうか？それとも剣ハみたく決闘で勝った方に藍染が数字を与えるとか？

A660
どちらのパターンもあります。

Translation ChatGTP

Q660
Did Aizen change the members of the Espada at his own discretion? Or, like the title of Kenpachi, did Aizen assign the number to the winner of a duel?

A660
Both options are possible.

My alternate world headcanon is that Barragan's rating was probably spite, however, databooks disagrees with that, although it would be hella funny if Aizen made him number two out of spite of his defiance. He has proven to be petty at times.

 

[Peterdenman156]

My alternate world headcanon is that Barragan's rating was probably spite, however, databooks disagrees with that, although it would be hella funny if Aizen made him number two out of spite of his defiance. He has proven to be petty at times.

So, what do you think the Top Espada in the Arrancar Arc should be like to make sense?

 

[Hellscream]

Baraggan rank 1, Ulquiorra rank 2, Yammy rank 3, Starrk rank 4

Starrk / yammy can swap places depending on which one you believe is stronger

Ah, maybe i should call baraggan rank 0 instead

 

[Bastolan27]

“Never speak again” very kind attitude towards debate, why don’t you counter what I say? It’s a discussion and people need to be open minded and see other options as well, not only just fight to be right.

Crazy, can't take a joke

the shaking isn’t 2C, her full power is 2C. I think that’s an important difference we are not acknowledging.

The feat that got her to 2-C in the first place was the shaking coupled with the statement. The only other way is a chain of downscaling that, believe me, will never get accepted by itself, especially since we literally have no idea what the difference between incomplete Vollstandig and complete Vollstandig is

Do you realise Yama has a direct dimension-busting statement written by the author right?…
Yet you seriously think Renj, who couldn’t even scratch Uryu is more deserving of a universal tier? That’s laughably ironic as much as thinking rukia is million times weaker than him. Narrative wise Renji wasn’t even stronger than base Yhwach when he landed with Rukia.

If you genuinely think Bankai Yamamoto or Fullbring Ichigo are less deserving of a 2C tier than Renji, then your understanding of Bleach is severely lacking. CFYOW explicitly stated that Yamamoto dominates, and unless Kubo outright contradicts it, which never happened, this is still likely true.

CFYOW doesn't matter, the anime will always take precedence; plus, as 1000 people said before me, the scaling depends on what happens now and if it contradicts something, for all we know, Renji will fight SK Yhwach and if that happens then all of your narrative BS doesn't matter. Heck, narratively, you can make the argument that Renji is supposed to be at this level because he didn't die from SK Yhwach's soul crush, even if he was an illusion, Yhwach thought it plausible that he could be there, while Yama caps at base Yhwach

I’m glad some people liked my comment because yeah I can see how much people which are not familiar with bleach lore scaling are talking here.

And given the only thing I can read is “cope about Renji” more like “cope about Yama”, I’m not even dismissing Renji downscaling from Shutara shaking, simple those people which where superior in the scaling, still scale above.

Crazy, who's acting condescending now?

I’ve been here for a long time, and I challenge anyone to dig through and post proof of how many times I’ve been wrong about Bleach, spoiler: it’s not happening. To tell someone like me to “never speak again” is laughable. But again we can wait time and see who’s right.

Crazy, Can't take a joke


Keep coping, Yama caps at 7-B. Lmao Lmao

 

[Bastolan27]

The feat that got her to 2-C in the first place was the shaking coupled with the statement.

What I mean is that the statement by itself is not a feat that would get her to 2-C, so the only feat is the shaking plus the statement together. One or the other by itself won't do shit