Back to the beginning

[LuffyRuffy46307]

The new DBS map is just the Observed Living Universe, that's all, it doesn't contain all the other realms, so it shouldn't be accepted as being absolute for the macrocosm, because this map only represents the Observed Living Universe.



Ah but Luffy how can you know that this map is just the living Universe? right here where Bulma shows such a big galaxy ( which is literally shown on the new map of the anime )




Here, as you can all see, this large galaxy is shown when Super Sheron appears and represents Universe 7



In the super anime guide, we're shown the same map that Akira Toriyama worked on by himself and that he repressed in his more recent works




As we can see, the map made by Akira Toriyama to represent the entire macrocosm of the entire cosmos is still used in the most recent works (like manga etc.)

https://imgur.com/a/e8dJvxc

Things already shown in current guides like chouzenshuu

As shown here in the manga, there is a separation only for the observed living Universe and all macrocosm already shown in previous works by Akira toriyama

This map from the anime disproves that the other realms exist only on this map, although the anime still shows that these realms exist outside the Universe, which further confirms the map created by Akira Toriyama.

Where Whis travels from Universe 10 to the Kaioshin realm shown here, where he leaves Universe 10 to go to the Kaioshin realm (you can see all the stars in the Universe and its space) after which Whis leaves for the Kaioshin realm which is all yellow, proving my point that the Kaioshin realm is outside the Universe and which contributes to my point of view of the original Akira Toriyama map that is outside Universe 7 which is the complete map of cosmology.

https://imgur.com/a/GRbRXdx

Scene from the anime shown here for those who want better

Goku request Zamasu for a fight | Universe 10 kai shocked about goku fight beerus

#DargonBallSuper #DragonBall #goku #vegeta #zamasu #beerus #whis

youtu.be

I think we should stick with the original map, because the new map refutes that these realms exist on this map, where we were introduced to the fact that it is only the Universe 7 observed and also the visual shows a galaxy being the Universe, lol

According to Akira Toriyama, he wanted the entire macrocosm to be represented by a ball and the world of the Kaioshins to be outside, which really makes sense with the map presented in the manga

The central big ball has the worlds called the living world and afterlife, and the Kaiōshin oversee all that from the outside. As their antithesis, at the bottom of the big ball are the Makaiōshin, who govern evil. Currently, it seems the Kaiōshins' power is superior

Well, Akira Toriyama mentions that this is the complete map of Universe 7 that contains all the kingdoms visually represented

For God's temple, I gave it a comparatively mysterious feeling, but on the other hand I thought it'd be good to have the afterlife be realistic. So Enma-daiō and the oni all wore suits like salary-men. I think you can see this by looking at the world map in this book, but there's a thing called the airport to Heaven. The background on that is that the people who go to Heaven all have to go by plane. This complete map was originally background information that I drew at the request of the anime people, but I took this opportunity to add the Kaiōshin World, which wasn't included in the complete map before, to make it perfect. In truth, this complete world map is something I made after I finished drawing the story, to make everything consistent. (laughs)

Well, also in this Dragon Ball guide Kakarot also mentions that the Kaioshin kingdom is completely outside the Universe, which implies it is inside the Universe.

The realm in which the Supreme Kai resides. It is located in neither the world of the living nor the Other World, and can only be entered via Instant Transmission

There's also the fact that the other world is the opposite of the Universe, which would mean that it somehow doesn't exist in the same place as the Universe

Where the living reside. It is the opposite of the Other World, and is the universe comprised of the North, South, East, and West Galaxies.

Now let's move on to the refutation about the map not being to scale, in fact, the path of the serpent looks distorted to those who see it from afar and it may seem larger and with every part being the size of the Universe, but the anime, manga and guides themselves have already confirmed the size of the path of the serpent, so the way you see the path of the serpent should not contradict what has already been said in the work itself and what has still been confirmed to this day

As i said earlier, it wouldn't make sense for the snake's path to be the size of the universe, as it itself has a specific size for it, this kills the argument of the snake's path being the size of the universe

Having trained under Kaio North well before Goku, it's said that he was the only one in 100 million years to have successfully traversed Serpent Road, a winding path that stretches for millions of kilometers.

Well, my points are only to bring the old map back to the complete macrocosm and the current map of the anime will only serve to use in any calculation of the living Universe observed for speed and the like.

Option 2, remove the two maps and remove the bubble-shaped Universe, as it contradicts the canon materials

We're aiming to remove both depictions of the cosmology including toriyamas macrocosm map and the dbs bubble universe depiction because some feel it is contradictory to the established cosmology and would be better to just go off statements and not visuals to make it less confusing and contradictory.

Summary of the proposal made here

Votes for option 2 so far at this time


Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus, @Damage3245, @LordGriffin1000

Disagree:

Neutral: @LephyrTheRevanchist

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

So what is the simple thing being proposed? Going back to the old illustration and returning the Afterlife to the original much larger than Living universe size?

Edit: I'll give this a temporary close via OP request. I can reopen after things taken care of.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@omegabronic @LuffyRuffy46307

I've reopened this so go wild

Before tagging staff, I'd prefer you guys laid out all your arguments. I will be heavily monitoring this thread as well, so any derailing comment will be deleted. And I swear to everything that is holy if I see discourse about the damn votes

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

@omegabronic @LuffyRuffy46307

I've reopened this so go wild

Thanks

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Agreed with this the 3-C universe is nonsense

 

[Damage3245]

I'll reserve judgement until I see exactly how this is being proposed to be utilized for the verse.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I'll reserve judgement until I see exactly how this is being proposed to be utilized for the verse.

Agreed. I'm pretty neutral myself.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don't even know what's being proposed...

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I don't even know what's being proposed...

Read DDMs comment above. That's basically the proposal in a nutshell. We stopped using the macrocosm map for DBS anime on a thread made by Omega, which downgraded the size of The Other World to baseline universe, and in turn the Kaioshin Realm (which disqualified it as significant size to scale for a space-time).

By taking the bubble universe model out, the Kaioshin Realm would regain its size and qualify for a full Low 2-C structure.

Note: This revision only affects DBS anime, as the Manga clearly use the macrocosm map, thus it retains its 3-space time size. Toei is an entire different beast altogether.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Also you should add the image where Universe 10 in the manga was depicted like the one in the guidebook

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Also you should add the image where Universe 10 in the manga was depicted like the one in the guidebook

We don't composite canon anymore. Every information to be used should pertain only to the anime and its depiction. If anime contradicts, so be it.

 

[Omegabronic]

The new DBS map is just the Observed Living Universe, that's all, it doesn't contain all the other realms, so it shouldn't be accepted as being absolute for the macrocosm, because this map only represents the Observed Living Universe.



Ah but Luffy how can you know that this map is just the living Universe? right here where Bulma shows such a big galaxy ( which is literally shown on the new map of the anime )




Here, as you can all see, this large galaxy is shown when Super Sheron appears and represents Universe 7

not true as the galaxy there in the Bulma scene is not the same as the one in the Super Shenron Scene, with the said SS scene having multiple galaxies showne, however, i still agree on removing this depiction, seen as as it shows that the universes apparently physically connect with one another and shows light traveling between them to them normally, which as we accept them as space times, wouldn't be possible

so i agree with the premise, not so much with the arguments

In the super anime guide, we're shown the same map that Akira Toriyama worked on by himself and that he repressed in his more recent works




As we can see, the map made by Akira Toriyama to represent the entire macrocosm of the entire cosmos is still used in the most recent works (like manga etc.)

https://imgur.com/a/e8dJvxc

As shown here in the manga, there is a separation only for the observed living Universe and all macrocosm already shown in previous works by Akira toriyama

the Macrocosm map is equally as contradicting as the bubble depiction, that one literally shows the Afterlife physically touching the Living Universe, it quite literally cannot be how the universe looks like given that both are space times

Where Whis travels from Universe 10 to the Kaioshin realm shown here, where he leaves Universe 10 to go to the Kaioshin realm (you can see all the stars in the Universe and its space) after which Whis leaves for the Kaioshin realm which is all yellow, proving my point that the Kaioshin realm is outside the Universe and which contributes to my point of view of the original Akira Toriyama map that is outside Universe 7 which is the complete map of cosmology.

https://imgur.com/a/GRbRXdx

Scene from the anime shown here for those who want better

Goku request Zamasu for a fight | Universe 10 kai shocked about goku fight beerus

#DargonBallSuper #DragonBall #goku #vegeta #zamasu #beerus #whis

youtu.be

it is already accepted as another space time, map or not, it would need to be outside by simple logic, this doesn't prove the macrocosm map is accurate at all, specially when it shows the likes of the Afterlife physically connecting with the Living Universe when both are supposed to be separated space times

I think we should stick with the original map, because the new map refutes that these realms exist on this map, where we were introduced to the fact that it is only the Universe 7 observed and also the visual shows a galaxy being the Universe, lol

According to Akira Toriyama, he wanted the entire macrocosm to be represented by a ball and the world of the Kaioshins to be outside, which really makes sense with the map presented in the manga

Now let's move on to the refutation about the map not being to scale, in fact, the path of the serpent looks distorted to those who see it from afar and it may seem larger and with every part being the size of the Universe, but the anime, manga and guides themselves have already confirmed the size of the path of the serpent, so the way you see the path of the serpent should not contradict what has already been said in the work itself and what has still been confirmed to this day

what are you talking about? there is no way a 1.000.000km line is EVER going to be visible from afar in a universal size scale, there is no "distortion" that could be made here for it to be visible, same for King Kais' planet, which is even smaller and yet fully visible as well

overall agree with premise of removing the bubble depiction, disagree with using the Macrocosm Map, both are equally contradictory to the lore of the series

 

[Ryzen7900X]

We don't composite canon anymore. Every information to be used should pertain only to the anime and its depiction. If anime contradicts, so be it.

did we stop compositing super with...super?

 

[AwkguyDB]

I don't even know what's being proposed...

I'll reserve judgement until I see exactly how this is being proposed to be utilized for the verse.

Basically the bubble universe model is not adequate to use as a model for the universe and we are going back to the old afterlife globe map

 

[Omegabronic]

did we stop compositing super with...super?

the manga and anime of Super already diverge in so many aspects.......it never made quite sense to composite both of them tbh

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

did we stop compositing super with...super?

Super Manga and Super Anime are explicitly different continuities. It was decided we shouldn't cross-scale continuities. It is what it is. I personally disagreed with that to an extent, but staff decided to handle them as their own.

 

[Omegabronic]

So what is the simple thing being proposed? Going back to the old illustration and returning the Afterlife to the original much larger than Living universe size?

the afterlife wouldn't be much larger than the living universe going by the old illustration, it would be the exact same size as the living universe

not that this matters, the old illustration contradicts them being separated space times as both are literally physically touching one another, making it equally as contradicting

i say we don't use either depiction since it contradicts the lore elements we know of the series plus if the OP is saying the scene in Super is only showing the Living World, then it also contradicts either way since they look nothing alike on both illustrations

 

[Ryzen7900X]

the manga and anime of Super already diverge in so many aspects.......it never made quite sense to composite both of them tbh

using similar cosmologies for super shouldn't have been a problem though I digress

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Read DDMs comment above. That's basically the proposal in a nutshell. We stopped using the macrocosm map for DBS anime on a thread made by Omega, which downgraded the size of The Other World to baseline universe, and in turn the Kaioshin Realm (which disqualified it as significant size to scale for a space-time).

By taking the bubble universe model out, the Kaioshin Realm would regain its size and qualify for a full Low 2-C structure.

Note: This revision only affects DBS anime, as the Manga clearly use the macrocosm map, thus it retains its 3-space time size. Toei is an entire different beast altogether.

Exactly, in Dragon Ball super we are also presented with the map of the same cosmology back DBS anime guide



That's why I'm proposing, removing the map from the super anime, is to continue using what Akira Toriyama worked on for both series, because what we see in the anime is the representation of Universe 7 observed whose other kingdoms do not exist, and the complete map shows all kingdoms.

 

[TiltedFN]

Using toriyamas first map doesn't work either for deciding what the cosmology should actually be like, we can't take it as 100 percent literal, we can only use the general layout of it, like the afterlife, where heaven is located, the kais planets, we JUST finished a thread saying NOT to use this. This doesn't make any sense..

 

[Damage3245]

The OP doesn't convince me for the map being to scale and appropriate to use for the speed calcs.

 

[Omegabronic]

The OP doesn't convince me for the map being to scale and appropriate to use for the speed calcs.

do you, however, have any opinions on deeming the Bubble like cosmology used in the DBS Anime as not usable?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm personally leaning towards being alright with the OP's interpretation. While I do not entirely support fully compositing each and every single detail about the difference between Toei's Astronomy and Original Manga (And by extention DBS)'s astronomy. Such as Planet Vegeta being larger than Jupiter in Toei, but not quite the same detail in the OG canon. I think the afterlife size comparisons was something Toriyama clearly intended for all mediums of Dragon Ball Macrocosm (Called Universe 7 in DBS). And thus, I do not mind readding the size of Planet Heaven being larger than the physical Universe being readded to the cosmology.

 

[Omegabronic]

I'm personally leaning towards being alright with the OP's interpretation. While I do not entirely support fully compositing each and every single detail about the difference between Toei's Astronomy and Original Manga (And by extention DBS)'s astronomy. Such as Planet Vegeta being larger than Jupiter in Toei, but not quite the same detail in the OG canon. I think the afterlife size comparisons was something Toriyama clearly intended for all mediums of Dragon Ball Macrocosm (Called Universe 7 in DBS). And thus, I do not mind readding the size of Planet Heaven being larger than the physical Universe being readded to the cosmology.

that is........not even what the OP is proposing tho? the OP doesn't mention Heaven being the size of the Living Universe anywhere

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I'm personally leaning towards being alright with the OP's interpretation. While I do not entirely support fully compositing each and every single detail about the difference between Toei's Astronomy and Original Manga (And by extention DBS)'s astronomy. Such as Planet Vegeta being larger than Jupiter in Toei, but not quite the same detail in the OG canon. I think the afterlife size comparisons was something Toriyama clearly intended for all mediums of Dragon Ball Macrocosm (Called Universe 7 in DBS). And thus, I do not mind readding the size of Planet Heaven being larger than the physical Universe being readded to the cosmology.

Well, we can propose that the sky is the size of the Universe according to Akira Toriyama's map, which i actually agree with, where mentioned several times in guides, that seems good to me.

 

[Omegabronic]

Well, we can propose that the sky is the size of the Universe according to Akira Toriyama's map, which i actually agree with, where mentioned several times in guides, that seems good to me.

toryama's map literally has the entire afterlife at the same size as the Living Universe, Heaven is SMALLER than the Living Universe in the Map.....and also, are you really going to ignore the contradictions i pointed out here?:

not true as the galaxy there in the Bulma scene is not the same as the one in the Super Shenron Scene, with the said SS scene having multiple galaxies showne, however, i still agree on removing this depiction, seen as as it shows that the universes apparently physically connect with one another and shows light traveling between them to them normally, which as we accept them as space times, wouldn't be possible

so i agree with the premise, not so much with the arguments


the Macrocosm map is equally as contradicting as the bubble depiction, that one literally shows the Afterlife physically touching the Living Universe, it quite literally cannot be how the universe looks like given that both are space times


it is already accepted as another space time, map or not, it would need to be outside by simple logic, this doesn't prove the macrocosm map is accurate at all, specially when it shows the likes of the Afterlife physically connecting with the Living Universe when both are supposed to be separated space times





what are you talking about? there is no way a 1.000.000km line is EVER going to be visible from afar in a universal size scale, there is no "distortion" that could be made here for it to be visible, same for King Kais' planet, which is even smaller and yet fully visible as well

overall agree with premise of removing the bubble depiction, disagree with using the Macrocosm Map, both are equally contradictory to the lore of the series

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

The heaven was represented by a ball that looks like a world, this is literally not a good counterargument, because we see other Universes represented by planets, i don't even need to mention what I'm talking about, the sky is already the size of the Universe confirmed by various materials in a canon way, i don't think your counter argument is worth responding to

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

The heaven was represented by a ball that looks like a world, this is literally not a good counterargument, because we see other Universes represented by planets, i don't even need to mention what I'm talking about, the sky is already the size of the Universe confirmed by various materials in a canon way, i don't think your counter argument is worth responding to

This is specifically referring to anime exclusive

(Daizenshuu 4 - Pg. 73/7 - Pg. 3) (A) This is a place where the deceased of good people are sorted through by King Enma. It is as large as the universe, and is covered with flowers.

The (A) is specifiying it's anime only material.

 

[Omegabronic]

The heaven was represented by a ball that looks like a world, this is literally not a good counterargument, because we see other Universes represented by planets, i don't even need to mention what I'm talking about, the sky is already the size of the Universe confirmed by various materials in a canon way, i don't think your counter argument is worth responding to

what are you talking about? "the universes are represented as planets"?????? where? you mean that one bubble depiction in the Super Shenron scene? the one you are trying to take away as contradictory? or do you mean the representations in Zeno's palace? because let me tell you, those are not the literal universes, or at least, nothing indicates they are anything more than representations of them

plus this tells me how much you didn't read my argument at all, if you want to take the macrocosm map as the literal depiction of how the universe looks like, you have to address the sizes, the fact that both of the realms are physically touching, that Heaven is factually smaller than the Universe when you are trying to say it is the same size of, while the Afterlife is also depicted as equal in size to the Universe as well, you are using points that contradict one another, if you see the points as so easy to address......then address them, else your argument only looks flawed

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This is specifically referring to anime exclusive

The (A) is specifiying it's anime only material.

Even though it's from the anime, it's still in a canon guide that contains stuff by Akira Toriyama and also specifically this is the acceptable size to contain so many souls presented in the past, present and future, therefore, the sky would have to be at least Universal in size, furthermore, souls from heaven do not reincarnate, only souls from hell

Where each Kaioshin creates a life after a death in a cycle that repeats infinitely



In reality, kaiôshin are not only mere spectators of the world of the living and the dead, but also possess the power of "creation", thanks to which stars and life forms appear.




In the universe to which Earth belongs, the Saiyajins, Freeza's clan, the monster Buu and other villains have destroyed many planets. However, every time something is destroyed, somewhere in the universe a kaiôshin gives birth to new life or a new star. Even if the kaiôshin have to actively intervene in the world of the living or in the afterlife, it will always be to maintain the order and balance of the stars and living beings. So it is these cycles of creation and destruction that

Which further confirms the sky being the size of the Universe

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Even though it's from the anime, it's still in a canon guide that contains stuff by Akira Toriyama and also specifically this is the acceptable size to contain so many souls presented in the past, present and future, therefore, the sky would have to be at least Universal in size, furthermore, souls from heaven do not reincarnate, only souls from hell

Imma have to stop you right there. Something that applies to Toei is in no way applicable to Super. It is what it is, those are the rules.

The rest of this post takes on a wild ride that is completely irrelevant to the thread at hand. Focus.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Imma have to stop you right there. Something that applies to Toei is in no way applicable to Super. It is what it is, those are the rules.

The rest of this post takes on a wild ride that is completely irrelevant to the thread at hand. Focus.

DDM agree with this, so i don't mind debating it here.

 

[Damage3245]

DDM agree with this, so i don't mind debating it here.

We just had a thread on de-compositing the cosmology. We're not starting that all up again here with no new evidence.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

DDM agree with this, so i don't mind debating it here.

DDM can have his own opinion. Unfortunately, current standards is that we don't use anything established in Toei for the other series.

Debating that goes outside the scope of this thread, and I will have to ask you to not derail this again with such.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

We just had a thread on de-compositing the cosmology. We're not starting that all up again here with no new evidence.

No, we actually have plenty for that, but I'm not playing a composed verse, but I'll talk about that one again soon, i'm using things from the original materials to show that the sky is the size of the Universe, so could you please lower the ball.

 

[Omegabronic]

Even though it's from the anime, it's still in a canon guide that contains stuff by Akira Toriyama

which is irrelevant as it equally contains Anime only material not presented in the Manga, it is a guide about Dragon Ball, it contains both cannon and non cannon information, hence why they specify where the information is applicable to

and also specifically this is the acceptable size to contain so many souls presented in the past, present and future, therefore, the sky would have to be at least Universal in size, furthermore, souls from heaven do not reincarnate, only souls from hell

Where each Kaioshin creates a life after a death in a cycle that repeats infinitely

which is irrelevant since the heat death of the Universe will happen before any number people die enough to make heaven any need to be universal in size, you are severely underestimating how big space is in comparison to a Human person, a galaxy alone could hold tens of trillions of people, Universal sizes is not necessary to hold all live that will die before everyone dies

In reality, kaiôshin are not only mere spectators of the world of the living and the dead, but also possess the power of "creation", thanks to which stars and life forms appear.




In the universe to which Earth belongs, the Saiyajins, Freeza's clan, the monster Buu and other villains have destroyed many planets. However, every time something is destroyed, somewhere in the universe a kaiôshin gives birth to new life or a new star. Even if the kaiôshin have to actively intervene in the world of the living or in the afterlife, it will always be to maintain the order and balance of the stars and living beings. So it is these cycles of creation and destruction that

Which further confirms the sky being the size of the Universe

nothing on this really matters nor proves universe sized heaven, in fact if you really want to use this argument, you are better off arguing that heaven is infinite since via your logic, even a Universal size eventually wouldn't be enough to hold off all live that dies and goes there

 

[Omegabronic]

No, we actually have plenty for that, but I'm not playing a composed verse, but I'll talk about that one again soon, i'm using things from the original materials to show that the sky is the size of the Universe, so could you please lower the ball.

you are using the exact same guide that was debated last time here......you are using things that were recently discussed and rejected

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Look I'm pretty sure no one has any idea what the actual topic to discuss is. may I suggest that we close this thread and redo a separate thread for it like I suggested to omega? Cuz this is a mess

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Look I'm pretty sure no one has any idea what the actual topic to discuss is. may I suggest that we close this thread and redo a separate thread for it like I suggested to omega?

It's been explained already. Thread doesn't even have 2 pages (edit: although it's about to, lol). Chill.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

DDM can have his own opinion. Unfortunately, current standards is that we don't use anything established in Toei for the other series.

Debating that goes outside the scope of this thread, and I will have to ask you to not derail this again with such.

As i mentioned before, the sky does not have a contracted size, as it is constantly receiving souls without reincarnation, which is why it is the size of the Universe, to contain several of them from other time periods, this has nothing to do with one thing ( but I'm proving that i didn't contract it in any way)