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This doesn't establish any size.
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Back to the beginning
- Thread starter LuffyRuffy46307
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- #42
Anyway close this, i don't want to lose my patience.
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If this thread gets closed now, you will not be able to revisit this topic for the next few months (3-4) (as this currently uses previously rejected information). Do you still want this closed?
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What was the topic of this thread even about?
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Removing DBS Anime depiction of the universe (a single bubble) in order to re-establish the macrocosm map, and thus regain 3 space-time macrocosm by Kaioshin Realm getting its size back.
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- #46
Bring back old map, to reestablish the other world as the size of the Universe and the Kaioshin realm, for speeds too.
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I only vaguely remember it being guide book statements also mentions the Heaven thing; not just Toei. But if it is specifically dialogue mentioned in the Toei Anime, I would not use that then. But the Globe definitely shows Afterlife having similar width but much greater height. And no one is proposing that the internal components are drawn to scale, just the bubbles. Living Universe is shown in the form of a ring underneath where HFIL's location on the globe. Which I personally think is fine at least.
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Damn, so we can’t make a thread removing just the bubble depiction? Since this thread was a mixture of random things that I felt took away from that.
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It was found these mentions were tied specifically to the anime at the time (being Z-Toei), thus rendered unusable.
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I think that might be fine? But frankly, I'd suggest just tackling it here. Thread spamming is not okay to me.
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Alright, you guys can address it from here
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as i said earlier.......this doesn't prove Universal size at all
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the size being discussed is frankly weird, let us just focus on removing the Bubble depiction of the DBS Anime as it is contradictory
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pretty much
except that map also shows both realms physically touching one another, which as defined by the last threads, is impossible as both are different space times, making it contradictory to the current accepted cosmology
even if the macrocosm map is re established......that won't matter for making the Kaioshin realm universal in size, where are people getting this notion from?
that was already done, in my second cosmology thread following the timelines thread
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I disagree with you there. Simple as that.
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The normal macrocosm map as shown in the dbs anime guide not likely
Whether the heaven size will be done is another detail entirely that others can tackle
But the dbs anime globe only shows the mortal universe, so can't be used when discussing the complete macrocosm
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For DBS anime, I would rather just remove both depictions and rely solely on statements. Since people think that the bubble depiction, contradicts things that we know exist in the macrocosm, such as the afterlife and kaioshin realm.
(It’s unfortunate because even guidebooks treat DBS anime as the TV series, with some statements of Beerus and Whis having stars in the chozenshuu, however we don’t accept that)
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I am, just give me a second
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Sure, that seems like a good comprise for the DBS anime.
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i see, could you say to me why? i genuinely don't see how accepting the Macrocosm Map could buff Heaven to Universe size for main cannon
i made mine here
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Okay, drop the derail now. Thanks.
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Problem #1: "The light from super shenron reached over universe 6 and 7 which shouldn't be possible unless since they are different spacetimes"
This isn't a gotcha moment, since super shenron was in the neutral space, his light is able to interact with both universes since the neutral space would be a higher dimensional axis that holds these macrocosms. And we have seen light in dragon ball from different sources such as ki attacks from macrocosm busting attacks, be able to reach into different spacetimes such as the kaioshin realms. This is not a defeater to dbs anime depiction apparently contradicting the realms being different spacetimes.
Problem #2: "We don't see the other realms, therefore it's not accurate"
This also isn't the problem you think it is, while it IS true we don't see the other realms in the full bubble, we have to understand that they are also other dimensions, which is probably why they can't be seen even from the perspective of the neutral space, even though the bubble is indeed what holds all these other spacetimes/macrocosm, the animation staff and toriyama probably didn't feel the need to show all the realms, these different layers of reality. we didn't see the kai ream either, and we know it's supposed to orbit the other realms. It's just a matter of being able to properly visualize what that looks like without making it weird. So it's probably for the best that we can't see it, even though we know all the spacetimes make up the bubble. Because that's all a macrocosm is, a collection of spacetimes. Luffy also showed a scan of whis opening a portal to the kai realm, and what's shown beyond that was the neutral space which is very good evidence to show that it does in fact orbit the universe. It would just be awkward to animate it. All the realms can still remain spacetimes while not visually being seen, its not really a problem.
Problem #3: "The universes appear finite in the neutral zone"
Again, I'm really not sure how this argument was allowed to slide. From the perspective of a higher dimensional space, like the neutral zone, any spacetime would appear finite automatically. We know this because spacetimes are constructed of uncountably infinite 3D objects, or snapshots of the physical plane, everything the temporal dimension encompasses. So by default, a spacetime IS infinite, well in a temporal sense. So any spacetime that you see from the outside that doesn't appear infinite would be a contradiction by that logic, which obviously isn't right. Bubble universe theory literally lies on the fact that the universe appear finite because they sit in that higher dimensional space to stop from ever interacting or touching. It's explained more, here, so these spacetimes held in this higher dimensional space would appear finite. In order for temporal infinites to not touch, they must be separated by a higher spatial axis. So this doesn't even rule out infinite universe, like people have been saying before, so you could still try again if you wanted to do that. It debunks nothing.
Problem #4: "The universes are touching"
No they really aren't, this was also a very weird and dishonest take imho on the matter. The universes are clearly separate because we see goku and co BETWEEN the universes, hell, we don't even SEE the other universes when they were literally between them, which indicates ALOT on that spatial axis separation thing. They were being claimed to touch because they LOOKED close to each other from a super zoomed out shot of the universes from the neutral zone. With the bad animation, blending colors, and poorly zoomed in shots looking like they were. But it's obvious they weren't since physical travel to each universe isn't possible as already established, and the light from super shenron was radiating from BETWEEN the universes, which would be impossible if they were connected, because everybody was sitting where the supposed universes were, "touching". Basically it was done by nitpicking, and arguments in bad faith, wish I didn't have to debunk it but hopefully its more clear now. Not to mention its LITERALLY a neutral dimension, like cmon.
That's all I could think of at the moment, last thread was literally pointing out the obvious flaws in toriyamas first map and why it shouldn't be the sole thing to use for the cosmological depiction. Some of the things on the map are valid, but its mostly just to get a general idea of the cosmology. The bubble depiction is what toriyama wanted, he made it, and although it's not perfect debatably, it should still be used in my opinion for the cosmology like it has been for so long now without any issues. I literally see no problem with using it. With that being said, if you want to remove both than go ahead, whichever you think is better works for me, but I just listed some reasons on why It is fine to use the dbs anime and mangas take.
This isn't a gotcha moment, since super shenron was in the neutral space, his light is able to interact with both universes since the neutral space would be a higher dimensional axis that holds these macrocosms. And we have seen light in dragon ball from different sources such as ki attacks from macrocosm busting attacks, be able to reach into different spacetimes such as the kaioshin realms. This is not a defeater to dbs anime depiction apparently contradicting the realms being different spacetimes.
Problem #2: "We don't see the other realms, therefore it's not accurate"
This also isn't the problem you think it is, while it IS true we don't see the other realms in the full bubble, we have to understand that they are also other dimensions, which is probably why they can't be seen even from the perspective of the neutral space, even though the bubble is indeed what holds all these other spacetimes/macrocosm, the animation staff and toriyama probably didn't feel the need to show all the realms, these different layers of reality. we didn't see the kai ream either, and we know it's supposed to orbit the other realms. It's just a matter of being able to properly visualize what that looks like without making it weird. So it's probably for the best that we can't see it, even though we know all the spacetimes make up the bubble. Because that's all a macrocosm is, a collection of spacetimes. Luffy also showed a scan of whis opening a portal to the kai realm, and what's shown beyond that was the neutral space which is very good evidence to show that it does in fact orbit the universe. It would just be awkward to animate it. All the realms can still remain spacetimes while not visually being seen, its not really a problem.
Problem #3: "The universes appear finite in the neutral zone"
Again, I'm really not sure how this argument was allowed to slide. From the perspective of a higher dimensional space, like the neutral zone, any spacetime would appear finite automatically. We know this because spacetimes are constructed of uncountably infinite 3D objects, or snapshots of the physical plane, everything the temporal dimension encompasses. So by default, a spacetime IS infinite, well in a temporal sense. So any spacetime that you see from the outside that doesn't appear infinite would be a contradiction by that logic, which obviously isn't right. Bubble universe theory literally lies on the fact that the universe appear finite because they sit in that higher dimensional space to stop from ever interacting or touching. It's explained more, here, so these spacetimes held in this higher dimensional space would appear finite. In order for temporal infinites to not touch, they must be separated by a higher spatial axis. So this doesn't even rule out infinite universe, like people have been saying before, so you could still try again if you wanted to do that. It debunks nothing.
Problem #4: "The universes are touching"
No they really aren't, this was also a very weird and dishonest take imho on the matter. The universes are clearly separate because we see goku and co BETWEEN the universes, hell, we don't even SEE the other universes when they were literally between them, which indicates ALOT on that spatial axis separation thing. They were being claimed to touch because they LOOKED close to each other from a super zoomed out shot of the universes from the neutral zone. With the bad animation, blending colors, and poorly zoomed in shots looking like they were. But it's obvious they weren't since physical travel to each universe isn't possible as already established, and the light from super shenron was radiating from BETWEEN the universes, which would be impossible if they were connected, because everybody was sitting where the supposed universes were, "touching". Basically it was done by nitpicking, and arguments in bad faith, wish I didn't have to debunk it but hopefully its more clear now. Not to mention its LITERALLY a neutral dimension, like cmon.
That's all I could think of at the moment, last thread was literally pointing out the obvious flaws in toriyamas first map and why it shouldn't be the sole thing to use for the cosmological depiction. Some of the things on the map are valid, but its mostly just to get a general idea of the cosmology. The bubble depiction is what toriyama wanted, he made it, and although it's not perfect debatably, it should still be used in my opinion for the cosmology like it has been for so long now without any issues. I literally see no problem with using it. With that being said, if you want to remove both than go ahead, whichever you think is better works for me, but I just listed some reasons on why It is fine to use the dbs anime and mangas take.
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So we have Omega's and Tilted, anyone else wants to add something or should I start calling staff?
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physical travel between space times is impossible without portals or dimensional travel is impossible however, which makes the scene where light travels to both of them contradictory, the BoG Light was actually the result of the clash between Goku and Beerus, which was destroying the entire universe, a 2-C feat, which distorts space time creating the "unusual mechanisms" that makes it traveling to these places possible in the first place
considering that we are seeing the entire Universes from the Outside, we should see all of it, the afterlife is in the same "bubble" of reality as the living universe, they are other dimensions, but that doesn't really matter when the Macrocosm is a collection of them in its entirety, therefore inside of it from an out of universe perspective both should be seen
this is even more true for the Kaioshin realm, since it isn't even inside the Macrocosm to begin with, thus just like the Universes, it should equally be visible like them
huh......no? we see stars, no mention that it is the neutral space, the Kaioshin realm has several stars within it, why couldn't that just be the rest of the Kaioshin realm?
this one i agree with, the Universe should have been accepted as Infinite in your other thread, but since it currently isn't, you can't really use this as a way to argue right now unless we open another thread to make the Infinite universe be accepted again
how does this matter for the scene clearly showing them touching tho? like, draw a circle around them, you can see them touching, what you are doing is just showing more evidence for that depiction to be wrong more than anything
which is why the scene of them touching is even more contradictory and should be discarded
exept that the depiction has the Afterlife physically touching the Living Universe, which shouldn't be a thing since they are different space times
also we.....don't really use the Macrocosm Map for much of anything nowadays, nor for calcs, for nothing
well, if we are really only seeing the Living Universe in the DBS Anime scene....then that also contradicts the Map as the Living Universe doesn't look like that, unless you say that the part with the looks in the map is only representative? but then again, that seems like nickpicking elements from the map more than anything
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I mean, only thing I have to point out is that the anime model showing only the mortal universe isn't a contradiction more so than just a limited model, it just means that whe talking about the macrocosm including all the realms, we should defer to the full macrocosm model given in the dbs anime guidebook, until the anime (should it return) shows a more complete model while deferring to the anime for any discussion about the structure of the mortal universe alone, as that's what is shown
All other nit-picks and walls of text aren't really necessary imo
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I agree with removing the bubble depiction, like Omega, but I disagree with his reasoning for it. Icl
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I know they logically aren't, the image showing both of them has them touching tho, that is the contradiction, the image contradicts the statements, that is my point
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That isn't a contradiction, if you know they aren't actually touching, then why even bring it up, its literally just the bad animation of that one frame that never shows up again lol.
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Tilted is making more sense to me.
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.....the fact that they in lore aren't touching, doesn't matter for the fact that the scene shows them touching, it is a visual vs Lore thing, i bring it up because it is contradictory, which is why, alongside the other factor i brought up, i am in support of scrapping that depiction as contradictory and unusable
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@Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @KingTempest @Deagonx @Catzlaflame @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Maverick_Zero_X @LordGriffin1000 @Firestorm808 @Antvasima
You may ignore this if you want, but we have moved now to a voting phase. Originally the thread wanted to axe the usage of the Dragon Ball Super bubble map for its cosmology and re-establish the usage of the Dragon Ball Macrocosm map made by Toriyama, but discussion has instead shifted to potentially discarding both entirely. Above I have quoted the two main arguments for why the maps (both) are contradictory and thus neither should be used, as well as arguments for why the seeming contradictions have some explanations and thus can be reconciled.
Omega also offered a rebuttal to the main argument in support here after the fact.
Main consequences of both maps being discarded entirely for our purposes is the fact we would instead rely on statements regarding the size of the space-times in the Universe 7 macrocosm, which can affect our speed calcs (most likely downgrading them) for the Super top tiers.
Note: This revision affects the DBS Anime, as the Manga and Toei continuities are considered as separate, thus they follow their own cosmological model and will be untouched by this revision.
Supporters are free to correct me in my summary of the current revision.
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