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Azur Lane Revisions Número 1: Ships Are More Than Just Cute Sexy Girls

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The burden of proof is on you. Collab characters isekai'ed to Azur Lane happened quite few times and recent events lamp shaped it, there isn't contradiction to main timeline which mean it isn't non-canon.
 
Collaboration that has a story is canon to the verse unless stated otherwise but what happens in that verse where the collab happens cannot be used to cross-scale and their feats in their original franchise or tiers cannot carry over.
just like how Joker can have Dragalia lost profile which is independent when it comes to ability and how some collaboration grants collab characters new abilities and strengths that are independent to collab story and isn't completely devoid of its own story unlike cross-collaboration games where there are barely any stories and are written by different writers

for Abstract existence and Non-corporeality even if they are applied they won't be battle applicable as such they need to manifest a form using wisdom cube to even interact. and they would be powerless in this form.
Although reading from what is provided it doesn't seem to be sufficient enough to be convincing for me. but based on the full context of scans it is referring it is even less convincing so yeah disagree with that

as for the mirror sea. reality-warping will only be limited inside that pocket dimension so pocket dimension manipulation is enough. unless they are shown to be able to warp reality from the main world and not just inside the mirror sea.

same with conceptual manipulation and other abilities strictly only available inside the mirror sea if we consider mirror sea as pocket dimension and thus it will be limited to such.

now I will proceed to read argument and discussion for the others proposed changes
 
Well, collab story for now is not entirely connect to the main story. But whatever. I'm currently looking into Mirror Sea, it is a pocket dimension and have a control device, that device also generate and maintain the existence of the mirror sea, destroy that device lead to the destruction of the mirror sea itself.

About Concept of mirror sea or whatever it is, nothing indicate it is at a conceptual level, and the word "concept" have two distinction meaning, 1 it is abstract concept/idea and 2 is physical design concept, the later is more obvious as Siren can change the structure of the Mirror Sea
 
Weell I was planning on responding to Vietthai's arguments, but I think it would be more productive to continue with what we already have.

Jamesthetaker said:
Incorporeality and Non-Physical Interaction: Disagree for reason above

Avatar Creation: I don't think this is correct, nothing ever implied shipgirls true form is abstract. The main purpose of Wisdome Cube is to bring physical body to them so giving this are against the idea in first place.
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Well the statements says that Shipgirls are in fact ideas and all that stuff that we know, so the physical form gave by the Wisdom Cubes could be treated as an avatar. But oh well, I think in this case AE 2 should work (for now)

Jamesthetaker said:
Reality Warping should be change into Pocket Dimension Manipulation to be exact
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I still have my doubts knowing that Souryuu doesn't really owns the Mirror Sea, but it should be good enough.

Jamesthetaker said:
Conceptual Manipulation: Neutral on this, Purifier explicitly point out the foundation behind the concept of Mirror Sea which implied it to be literal. I also favour the chinese text on this one because it's the original version, but unfortunately, i can't give an answer for now.
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Hmmm ok. Although, all the conversation there was basically that Mirror Seas lacks of a physical foundation, also explaining that the "device" controlling it (which is that concept behind the sea) doesn't exist in the physical sense.

Jamesthetaker said:
Causality Manipulation: Disagree for @Vietthai96 reason above
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Fair enough.

Jamesthetaker said:
Hacking: This is exclusive to Helena Meta only, i think.
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I still don't see why this would be exclusive for Helena META, as, again, those new abilities that she gains seems part of the whole transformation into a META Ship.

Jamesthetaker said:
Information Manipulation: I'm guessing this is because they can control the Mirror Sea? I would like to see more info on this.

Law Manipulation: This is fine. Control the law inside a restricted space is still considered Law Manipulation, but do you have better scans?
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On this, going over my points again, I'd rather put it aside for the moment as, in fairness, I don't have enough information to make a consistent argument, so oh well, that's the way it is.
 
Oh right. Now that the RW stuff was questioned, I found something interesting.

In Visitors Dyed in Red, it was saw that, apparently, Sirens are capable of controlling reality and causality/fate like some kind of simulation. Perhaps is not that important at the moment, but still, something that can be considered for a future.
 
Hecatia_Gaming said:
Oh right. Now that the RW stuff was questioned, I found something interesting.

In Visitors Dyed in Red, it was saw that, apparently, Sirens are capable of controlling reality and causality/fate like some kind of simulation. Perhaps is not that important at the moment, but still, something that can be considered for a future.
Click to expand...
In VDiR, it is just another Pocket Reality Dimension, yes they simulating it and apply some certain law on the pawn and clone, right now they still not demonstrate the ability to manipulate fate or causality on actual reality, they can't even affect the outsider who come in from the outside thus extremely limited, this again show in New Jersey. The Sanctuary itself is another Mirror Sea, which mention again in the event which i forget the name said that it is Mirror Sea of Sakura Empire using the tech of Siren like Iron Blood did in Peter Strasser event. The stupid part is look like recent even debunk and retcon what happen in the main campaign especially Bismarck prologue and Midway Battle with Akagi and Kaga, it also retcon some element in Visitors Dyed in Red event.

Now come to some of your stuff above
Hecatia_Gaming said:
Well the statements says that Shipgirls are in fact ideas and all that stuff that we know, so the physical form gave by the Wisdom Cubes could be treated as an avatar. But oh well, I think in this case AE 2 should work (for now)


I still have my doubts knowing that Souryuu doesn't really owns the Mirror Sea, but it should be good enough.


Hmmm ok. Although, all the conversation there was basically that Mirror Seas lacks of a physical foundation, also explaining that the "device" controlling it (which is that concept behind the sea) doesn't exist in the physical sense.


I still don't see why this would be exclusive for Helena META, as, again, those new abilities that she gains seems part of the whole transformation into a META Ship.


On this, going over my points again, I'd rather put it aside for the moment as, in fairness, I don't have enough information to make a consistent argument, so oh well, that's the way it is.
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1. It is not about being treated or not, but it is about actual evidences and feats, we can't just go and say hey they are in fact idea so their current form must be avatar, you need actual proof and feat for that, not assume it as fact. AE1 is totally out of question, no supporting evidences and there are some anti-evidences as both Wisdom Cube and Shipgirls are physical form. I will look more into AE2
2. There is a device, but look like she hacked it like Helena, according to many recent events, Mirror Sea was generated and maintained by a device even there is no high-ranking Siren left, mean that they could well using the device to control it
3. As of right now only Helena demonstrate it, and no proof that META state allow all of them to hack shit
4. This thing i already said so i will not mention again

Now excuse me i'm going to sleep, it is midnight in my country already. And look like Jame need to make Helena META page lol, he probably hate me for this
 
I'm gonna compile all the evidence of Abstract Existence Type 2 and Immortality type 8 here so the staff can evaluate it easier:

In the beginning of game, Akashi who introduce us to the basis of Shipgirls claimed this:

I'll explain, nya~! Decades ago, with the appearance of the Sirens and the "Wisdom Cube," ships gained the ability to manifest in human form, nya!
Although the technology that has come with the Wisdom Cubes has allowed us to hold our ground against the Sirens, that alone will not allow us to make any breakthroughs, nya...
For ships to be able to manifest as humans... the Wisdom Cube allows the collections of various feelings, emotions, and images from an unspecified number of people to take on a physical form... in other words, a "collective body," nya.

In theory, even if there was a ship that never existed, as long as peoples' beliefs in their form and function were strong enough, we would be able to manifest them as well, nya!

In the Dreamwaker's Butterfly event, we also get these statements from Shinano:

The manifestation of humanity's dreams and hopes, the Wisdom Cube... But there are special ones among them.

(I am a weapon... the embodiment of humanity's thoughts, the wishes for which they fight.)

In Khorovod of Dawn event, the Northen ships also talk about the same thing, add-on the existence of blueprint ships, which are different from normal shipgirls as they doesn't exist in history:

Kirov: "We have always thought that a ship's foundational hull is inseparable from its history. In essence, this history is supposed to be a sum of humanity's perceptions and notions about the ship."

Kirov: "A hull is widely considered a prerequisite to a ship's construction, even for mass-produced ships. By extension, a history is a prerequisite."

Kirov: "All this is to say, a shipgirl's history is her proof of existence. Even if she was only dreamed up in blueprints."

Kirov: "Yes, and this raises another question: What makes one a blueprint ship? Is it not something determined by the Wisdom Cubes that constitute our foundational hull?"

Kirov: "Through whatever means, the Wisdom Cubes already contain the data that makes us who we are. To build a ship, you must extract this information."

Kirov: "But what if there is not enough information within the Wisdom Cubes to give form to a ship? What would happen if you "edited" another reality into the Wisdom Cubes?"

Commander: "It's a lot to take in. If I understanding this right, Wisdom Cubes contain the "essence" of a shipgirl, and building them is the process of giving this essence a physical form, right? In contrast, blueprint ships..."

Commander: "Are you saying that someone is capable of inserting their own "history" into Wisdom Cubes and manifesting them...?"

Kirov:"Who knows? This is just a theory of mine, but if it is true, what restrictions are there on the kinds of history you are able to edit into a Wisdom Cube?"

Screenshot_20211009-001007_Azur_Lane.jpg

From all of these, we can come up the conclusion: Shipgirls is the physical manifestion of humanity's perception and thought of real life warships. The foundational hull are the history of that ships which the Wisdom Cube contain data of. Even if the ships doesn't actually exist, people's belief in their form and function were strong enough to bring them into reality.

As for Immortality type 8, while there isn't direct statement, however, Abstract Existence are heavily tied to this which we could interpret from it:

Based on Kirov's conversation above we known that even mass-produced ships (aka fodder in common term) are constructed in similar to normal shipgirls. By this mean, a weaker ships still follow the principle of collective body nonetheless. The so-called fodder here are clone of actual shipgirls, they have similer personaility and mindset as real one. In Visitors Dyed in Red, a fodder was able to break their restrain and act accordant to their original counterpart.

All of these implied that shipgirls can be recreate indefinitely as long the collective idea of that ships still exist within humanity.

@DarkDragonMedeus What do you think?
 
Jamesthetaker said:
As for Immortality type 8, while there isn't direct statement, however, Abstract Existence are heavily tied to this which we could interpret from it:

Based on Kirov's conversation above we known that even mass-produced ships (aka fodder in common term) are constructed in similar to normal shipgirls. By this mean, a weaker ships still follow the principle of collective body nonetheless. The so-called fodder here are clone of actual shipgirls, they have similer personaility and mindset as real one. In Visitors Dyed in Red, a fodder was able to break their restrain and act accordant to their original counterpart.

All of these implied that shipgirls can be recreate indefinitely as long the collective idea of that ships still exist within humanity.
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1. We don't interpret, we need actual evidences that shipgirls have immortal power rely on human belief and they can return back from it.
2. No, a clone that act like original doesn't mean the original return. They are the new person themselves.

Comment on phone is a pain in the ass lol
 
We known that shipgirls existence relies on humanity's belief which is how they are created in first place.

Doesn't matter if they're clone or not, they are entirely made up from collective idea which is why their base design and personality is pratically same nonetheless, the only different is their experience at the port vs the reenactment.
 
1. Created from something doesn't mean they can exist indefinitely based on it
2. This is wrong on a very new level, same personality, same appearance doesn't mean it is immortality when it is just a clone. Unless you give it this thing to the entire race of shipgirls, singular person, no

But well i doubt i can sway you, cuz every love to wank their favorite verse
 
Joking aside, i severly doubt it would ever accepted tbh

Oh and before i forgot, i also disagree with the proposal and what James and Viet said are making more sense here
 
i agree with james here
also you don't need actual feats for type 8 to have that power and you literally cannot have a feat for abstract existence i have yet to know of anything even close to that
 
Zencha9 said:
i agree with james here
also you don't need actual feats for type 8 to have that power and you literally cannot have a feat for abstract existence i have yet to know of anything even close to that
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Oh, then the Infinite Zamasu revision to have AE disagree with you lol. And Immortality 8 you need atleast statement that user can return indefinitely from that or something similar
 
Type 8 immorality can be agree/disagree or whatever, its probably not even combat-applicable in first place.

Putting that aside, Abstract Existence is stated so many times that its not even a joke now. I would like to see staff input on that part.
 
Vietthai96 said:
Oh, then the Infinite Zamasu revision to have AE disagree with you lol. And Immortality 8 you need atleast statement that user can return indefinitely from that or something similar
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Do you even know why infinite zamasu got possibly?
It's Because "will" is not as blatant and alot of guys were iffy on it based on that alone since souls can be referred to as "will" in some media
This is way more blatant than anything zamasu has
Next time read the reasoning for why said statistics were in place instead of randomly interpretating it to fit your own goals
 
Zencha9 said:
Do you even know why infinite zamasu got possibly?
It's Because "will" is not as blatant and alot of guys were iffy on it based on that alone since souls can be referred to as "will" in some media
This is way more blatant than anything zamasu has
Next time read the reasoning for why said statistics were in place instead of randomly interpretating it to fit your own goals
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it is both interpretation, i can also interpret that human hope and dream as something flowery and metaphor, so your point don't add up, as everyone debate for their own goal. Oh and why so aggressive at me lol
 
Vietthai96 said:
it is both interpretation, i can also interpret that human hope and dream as something flowery and metaphor, so your point don't add up, as everyone debate for their own goal. Oh and why so aggressive at me lol
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didn't mean to sound aggressive my bad
you would need to prove why said statements are flowery
 
Can somebody explain the conclusions here so far in an easy to understand manner please?
 
Antvasima said:
Can somebody explain the conclusions here so far in an easy to understand manner please?
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Spatial Manip, Hacking and Pocket Reality Manipulation was accepted by....well me and Jame, and some other and no one disagree with

Abstract Existence type 1 was rejected and now people debate about type 2. Immortality type 8 also still being debated. So we currently need staff members to review those thing cuz at this point all of us going in circle

The rest was rejected with the exception of Conceptual Manipulation, which i disagree with it (you can review my comment on whh i disagree), Jame is neutral on this stuff and he waiting for staff to review the conceptual thing. Hecatia seem want to argue further about this but look like he rarely come, so i think we still need staff to review the Conceptual Manipulation.

Zencha9 said:
didn't mean to sound aggressive my bad
you would need to prove why said statements are flowery
Click to expand...
Well, no problem, i just joke around to chill down the heat, everyone have moment like this including me sometime, we just need to remind and stop ourself from exploding lol.

About why it is flowery, well because i play the game i saw no other statement or direct feat to support, and the throughtout the game flowery and metaphor dialog are everywhere. Not only thag but also the game have different dialog between Chinese version, Japanese version and English version (similar to NA Dragon Ball Z in 90s where English localization entirely change the dialog stuffs, this game suffer similar thing), that why i don't want to touch there stuffs. But like you said before, it is about personal interpretation though, so i'm mostly neutral on AE, if staff agree then it is fine to me though
 
wasn't there is an ongoing discussion about conceptual manip type 3
seeing how that is only starting in staff discussion we may have to wait for the conclusion specially if we're giving them type 3 which is the target of that changes.
 
Yeah im largely fine with staff opinions the reason why i think it's blatant since it references jungian shiz and there's alot of verses that uses it
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
wasn't there is an ongoing discussion about conceptual manip type 3
seeing how that is only starting in staff discussion we may have to wait for the conclusion specially if we're giving them type 3 which is the target of that changes.
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Type 3 will have more strict requirements, and there will be new ability called Essence or Property Manipulation, well in short manipulating the core of something, but not on conceptual or fundamental level
 
Vietthai96 said:
Spatial Manip, Hacking and Pocket Reality Manipulation was accepted by....well me and Jame, and some other and no one disagree with

Abstract Existence type 1 was rejected and now people debate about type 2. Immortality type 8 also still being debated. So we currently need staff members to review those thing cuz at this point all of us going in circle

The rest was rejected with the exception of Conceptual Manipulation, which i disagree with it (you can review my comment on whh i disagree), Jame is neutral on this stuff and he waiting for staff to review the conceptual thing. Hecatia seem want to argue further about this but look like he rarely come, so i think we still need staff to review the Conceptual Manipulation.
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@Dino_Ranger_Black @JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente

Would you be willing to help out here?
 
Vietthai96 said:
Spatial Manip, Hacking and Pocket Reality Manipulation was accepted by....well me and Jame, and some other and no one disagree with

Abstract Existence type 1 was rejected and now people debate about type 2. Immortality type 8 also still being debated. So we currently need staff members to review those thing cuz at this point all of us going in circle

The rest was rejected with the exception of Conceptual Manipulation, which i disagree with it (you can review my comment on whh i disagree), Jame is neutral on this stuff and he waiting for staff to review the conceptual thing. Hecatia seem want to argue further about this but look like he rarely come, so i think we still need staff to review the Conceptual Manipulation.
Click to expand...
@Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000

Would you be willing to help out with evaluating this thread please?
 
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