Azur Lane Revisions Número 1: Ships Are More Than Just Cute Sexy Girls

[Hecatia_Gaming]

So there are a lot of stuff to revise in Azur Lane?

Short Answer: Yes

Long Answer: Of course

Really Long Answer:

While I still think I'm not 100% knowledgeable in the verse, from all the things that I already saw and understood in my playthrough around it, I can't help myself but disagree a bit with how Azur Lane is treated in the wiki. Not only in the terms of raw power and destructive potential (which apparently is the main thing to analyze here), but also regarding canonicity, some extra information, and what bring us here: powers and abilities.

So yeah, this is going to be one of not-so-soon threads that are focused on trying to try to fix those little issues with AL. Anyway, let's begin.

Shipgirls' Existence​

So starting with the basics, this is what the generic profile looks like right now:

Accelerated Development (Shipgirls can increases their stastistics by upgrading their rigging, levelling up), Weapon Creation (Shipgirl's Wisdom Cube allow them to manifest their rigging which contain weapons corresponding to their ship version), Weapon Mastery (As a shipgirl, she have mastery over her weapons), Information Analysis (Shipgirls have radar and other device that allows them to gain information about other ships), Limited Telepathy (Shipgirls have communication device allowing one to communicate with other shipgirls), Enhanced Senses (With radar shipgirls could "sense" other ships and shipgirls locations outside of their visual range), Immortality (Type 1; Shipgirls don't physically age)

And honestly, it's pretty hollow.

What concerns us right now is what needs to be added for all the Shipgirls in general, in which we can find some pretty neat stuff that I'm actually surprised no one yet mentioned.

Anywayyy, directly stating Akashi's researchs:

I'll explain, nya~! Decades ago, with the appearance of the Sirens and the "Wisdom Cube," ships gained the ability to manifest in human form, nya!
Although the technology that has come with the Wisdom Cubes has allowed us to hold our ground against the Sirens, that alone will not allow us to make any breakthroughs, nya...
For ships to be able to manifest as humans... the Wisdom Cube allows the collections of various feelings, emotions, and images from an unspecified number of people to take on a physical form... in other words, a "collective body," nya.

This is a pretty blatant statement, that comes from someone who is dedicated to the study of Wisdom Cubes and Ships/Sirens in general. Ships aren't physical beings, but instead, a collective manifestation of human thoughts, desires, ideals, etc. This is even directly related with the design and personality that each ship gain, as these are directly affected by how does someone sees the ship itself (for example Eagle Union ones are most technological and libertarians because those are the things that the United States personifies, Royal Navy ones are more royalist and loyal because that's how England and its kingdoms are, Iron Blood's ships are mostly imposing and warlike because of how Nazi Germany was, Sakura Empire having that mysticism because of Japan, etc etc etc).

We also have that even if the ship doesn't exist, it can still be created thanks to peoples' beliefs:

In theory, even if there was a ship that never existed, as long as peoples' beliefs in their form and function were strong enough, we would be able to manifest them as well, nya!

There are some occasions in which they are pretty direct tho:

The manifestation of humanity's dreams and hopes, the Wisdom Cube... But there are special ones among them.

(I am a weapon... the embodiment of humanity's thoughts, the wishes for which they fight.)

So why is this important?

Well. Knowing all this context and information, it should be clear that ships should not be treated as physical entities, but instead, more abstract ones. Yeah, all Shipgirls needs to have listed Type 1 Abstract Existence and Non-Corporeality in their profiles, as their true essence is the one of a manifestation of ideals and human will.

+

Avatar Creation, as thanks to the Wisdom Cubes, they can create a human form, which works as their physical vessel, and a kind of collective body.

Not only that, but also, as it seems that these Wisdom Cubes allows them manifest even if they don't exist at all + things like being able to return even after being sunk, I think they can also have Type 8 Immortality. This also could explain why you can still roll for Hood even if she already "died".

Lastly on this point, maybe they can have Non-Physical Interaction, as they can interact between each other constantly. But anyway, now let's move with the other interesting stuff.

META Girls Being More META(Physical)​

I also needed to talk about META Ships, even if there's only one profile about them, so let's see.

Well this part will be more quick than the previous section (or so I hope).

Spatial Manipulation

In Mirror Involution, we can see how Helena META is capable of breaking the fabric of the Mirror Sea:

So this could scale to the other META Ships.

Mirror Seas Metaphysical Neo-Platonic Stuff (Jajaj)

So now following with the most interesting stuff, we have to return to the Mirror Involution event.

So there's not only Helena META being capable of breaking space, but also we have that Souryuu META is the one defending the Mirror Sea:

We may be drawing close to the ship that is defending this Mirror Sea...

Yes. One that has lost sight of her very existence, unlike me...

One who used to fight for hope, but was overwhelmed by the grief etched into her hull by history...

And she isn't only defending the Mirror Sea, but also, she was controlling it constantly to have a superiority over the main fleet:

Hold on, it should still be disabled... This can only mean...

This must be "her" doing... If that is the case, can you see her now?

Oh, I'm starting to see something over there! Wait, it's just a single ship?!

Yes... This is the true form of the Wisdom Cube... once it has been touched by the infinite potential of the "META" phenomenon.

More stuff about that:

Is that Souryuu? Wait, there's something different about her... Is she also one of the "META?"

What a terrifying aura... I can feel a deathly chill even from this distance.

She is the one who now controls this Mirror Sea.

So META Ships can control the Mirror Sea, as it's constantly showed. This isn't only a great Reality Warping/Pocket Reality Manipulation feat. To know the extend of this ability, we have to know what exactly a Mirror Sea is.

(And yeah this is supposed to support some more higher tiers via abilities, but I don't want to mess with physical stats and destructive potential yet, so let's focus only on the haxxy stuff)

The Mirror Seas as we knoware pocket realities with their own space-time that manifest through some important points in the world. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. The truth is, that Mirror Seas are of a more abstract and conceptual existence (like Shipgirls and Sirens), which find their origin in a concept that goes beyond physical limits.

This is explained in the Hololive event, in which Purifier explains the following:

So yeah, everyone's been talking about "solving the mystery of the Mirror Sea" and stuff. If you wanna do that, just get to the foundation of it.

Its "foundation"?

You heard me. I don't mean foundation as in the bottom of this ocean sector or whatever, but the foundation behind the very concept of the Mirror Sea. Don't ask why, I just know.

This goes more direct in the Chinese and Japanese versions, in which her explanation is detailed more:

Chinese:

Here, although I am not very sure, the core control device of the sea area is usually located in the most important position in the concept of the entire sea area, rather than the center of the sea area in the physical sense.

Japanese:

Well, everyone said a lot, but if you want to solve the mystery of the mirrored sea area, why not go to the "most important place" in that mirrored sea area?

"The most important place"?

that's right. It's not the center of the sea area, but the center of the "concept" of "mirror surface sea area". I think so somehow

So everyone being capable of manipulating and controlling Mirror Seas should also be capable of controlling its concept, giving the Conceptual Manipulation.

Oh yeah, we also have the Reenactment Phenomenon, which is basically recreation of events in the world and stuff like that. I think that should be Causality Manipulation, although I don't have scans about that right now, F.

And that's all? Not really, because we also see how META Ships can hack others and warp their control over the Mirror Sea. Returning once more to Mirror Involution (Damn such a good event):

Holy smokes... There's hardly a scratch on her even after taking a direct hit! I'm getting a real bad feeling about this...

The difference between your specifications is too vast... Even an attack like that couldn't penetrate her armor.

Oh, right! You've been able to hack into this Mirror Sea, right? Can you use it to even the playing field for us?

I see... Even though she's not part of the Reenactment, as the "controller" of the Mirror Sea, it might just work...

(This has to work... Otherwise...)

Mirror hacking protocol... Yes, it's working!

I'll be borrowing the power of the Mirror Sea!

Commander, order an all-out assault!

Please, lead us to victory!!

And that's all for META Ships.

TL;DR, AKA Stop The Wank Plz​

So to summarize, here are all the things that should be added to the profiles:

All Shipgirls:

• Type 1 Abstract Existence and Incorporeality
• Type 8 Immortality
• Avatar Creation
• Non-Physical Interaction

META Shipgirls:

• Spatial Manipulation (Potentially Space-Time Manipulation)
• Reality Warping
• Pocket Reality Manipulation
• Conceptual Manipulation
• Causality Manipulation (Reenactment and all that crazy stuff)
• Hacking, Information Manipulation, and Law Manipulation (Since they can hack each other to gain access to the power of the Mirror Sea)

Welp, that's all.

One last image of New Jersey because she epic.

 

[Shmooply]

what the ****

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Yes

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Are the AE, Incorporeality, and type 8 immortality combat applicable?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

But one thing for sure, @Vietthai96 will be so mad and heavily disagree with this

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I will look at this later.

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm really mad right now cuz busy working and DBH revision and someone decide to slap this at my face
Aside from spatial manip and pocket reality manipulation stuff (which i will elaborate way later), disagree with all. Why, all of this is flowery language and figurative talking.
1. Conceptual Manipulation: You isolated the word "concept" in the entire paragraph to give conceptual manipulation, what??, nothing you present here is related to neo-plato concept or something similar. And in the same bunch of dialog you posted, it also said there is a device to generate and control the mirror sea
2. Law Manipulation: control the law inside a pocket reality doesn't grant you actual Law Manipulation
3. Reality Warping: what??, in the entire game, Siren doesn't actually warp the reality, they spawn Mirror Sea and control the reality of that picket dimension
4. Causality Manipulation: what???, Siren and possibly META ship using Mirror Sea which is a Pocket Dimension to simulating a particular event, in New Jersey event it is iirc it is simulating the Midway Atoll battle where Soryuu and her sister lost again Eagle Union/American fleet) simulating something doesn't = causality unless more context is involved. Throughout the entire event, the simulation continue to repeat, and it don't affect outside character when they enter, and the effect are limited inside the pocket reality
5. Information Manipulation: nothing indicated this, you pull this out of your brain at this point
6. Hacking: while Helena META did hack the Mirror Sea, right now only her shown the ability to do that, we don't scale to all META ship unless more ships capable of doing the same thing.

now to another importance stuff:
Abstract Existence:
1. Sorry but that is now flowery language, in the Khorovod of Dawn event, Belorussiya said "We started out looking for an exit, but now we're also searching for the truth behind the Sirens, and behind our very existences", it contradict to the claim Akashi said about shipgirls, in Shinano event she said she is the hope of her nation, but it is by itself have nothing aside some metaphor meaning like i'm the hope of this person, he is her hope, you putting your hope in someone to do something for you etc...........Same with what Akagi said about the black box.
2. Next is in the same Khorovod of Dawn event chapter 20, shipgirls speculate that in order to manifest shipgirl, it is require to insert data into it, but again they just guessing all this stuff thus leading to vague knowledge regarding shipgirls existence
3. This is the Operation Siren File, and it mention that Wisdom Cube come from a Meteorite which was used to replace "current" energy like nuclear, electricity, all other thing. And the file contain the information of the "future timeline" where is the original shipgirls was born, those later become META ship, right now no ACTUAL INFORMATION on how shipgirl appear and manifest themselves, iirc Khorovod of Dawn event also said that the first shipgirl and wisdom cube appear as they don't know how shipgirl, and only specific shipgirls who come from WWII era can manifest themselves, they can't do the same thing to more modern ship

Non-Corporeality:
Huh, what, no they never show any feat like this, please stop

Type 8 Immortality:
lol, why you using gameplay and mechanic for this, and for the record, nothing stated Hood actually dead, the intro only show her got damaged, you use real life history for this which invalid as this game is not actually follow, Bismarck was said to not dead and still revoering, thus F.D.G leading Iron Blood instead, same with Jean Bart who also get recover while in real life history, two of them should be deep under the ocean

Avatar Creation:
huh what, nowhere it was stated the current appearance is their avatar???

That why i sometime hate Chinese produce, they love to put flowery, poetic words in their produce but we take them too serious. I know sooner or later this will come, but eh can we just wait for more information 0.0. What next, 2-A Siren and META ship???

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Before i give my opinion on this CRT, i would like addressed @Vietthai96 word on Abstract Existence:

First of all, i disagree with you dismiss the information as flowery language. Akashi job as an salesman, researcher, engineer, etc, is to informed you about everything at the port, she has no reason to be cryptic and talking about nonsenses while she is supposed to introduce you about Shipgirls.

Secondly, during Khorovod of Dawn event, Northen ships talk about how blueprint ships (like Freidrich or Roon) can exist in the first place when they have no "history". In that same conversation, they literally claim ships existence were based on humanity's perceptions and notation of them:

Spoiler

Kirov: "We have always thought that a ship's foundational hull is inseparable from its history. In essence, this history is supposed to be a sum of humanity's perceptions and notions about the ship."

Kirov: "A hull is widely considered a prerequisite to a ship's construction, even for mass-produced ships. By extension, a history is a prerequisite."

Kirov: "All this is to say, a shipgirl's history is her proof of existence. Even if she was only dreamed up in blueprints."

Kirov: "Yes, and this raises another question: What makes one a blueprint ship? Is it not something determined by the Wisdom Cubes that constitute our foundational hull?"

Kirov: "Through whatever means, the Wisdom Cubes already contain the data that makes us who we are. To build a ship, you must extract this information."

Kirov: "But what if there is not enough information within the Wisdom Cubes to give form to a ship? What would happen if you "edited" another reality into the Wisdom Cubes?"

Commander: "It's a lot to take in. If I understanding this right, Wisdom Cubes contain the "essence" of a shipgirl, and building them is the process of giving this essence a physical form, right? In contrast, blueprint ships..."

Commander: "Are you saying that someone is capable of inserting their own "history" into Wisdom Cubes and manifesting them...?"

Kirov:"Who knows? This is just a theory of mine, but if it is true, what restrictions are there on the kinds of history you are able to edit into a Wisdom Cube?"

Operation Siren File is almost irrelevant since it implied to take place in another timeline where human have only known Wisdom Cube a little while back, even then Dr. Anzeel still believe Mind Cube (previous name) were mainly responsible for shipgirls creation. Going forward to the current timeline, it is likely that shipgirls have done more progress on Wisdom Cube than before, which is why Akashi and Kirov were certainly in speaking about their own existence (although blueprint ships seem to be hidden from most people).

That being said, i still disagree with Type 1 Abstract Existence and Non-Corporeality since shipgirls were stated to be given physical form many times. I think Type 2 could work but i want hear others on this too.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Neo-Platonic Stuff

Eye emoji, I’ll read this in the morning and give my thoughts on it

 

[Vietthai96]

......

First of all, Operation Siren File literally debunk the entire notion of which Akagi stated in her interaction that Cube is the manifestion of human emotion or whatever it is because the file mention the cube come from meteorite which mean it is a physical object, human can also touch and ultilize it for energy resource. Thus destroy AE type 2, and like you said and the same chapter i posted debunk AE type 1. In order for being type 1 you need to exist as pure abstraction but the entire game never have anything support for this, thus turn the entire Akashi statement into nothing, and the way she said was very flowery and metaphor same with how Shinano monologue about herself being the hope of Sakura Empire. Like Dragon Ball Infinite Zamasu, he was said by Gowasu to "become the order and justice" but it is flowery language and even then he have better feat because he lack physical body, he only have a possible AE1 because of outside sources, also born from abstraction is not enough for AE1, you need to exist purely as abstraction which mean you can't interact with them normally, throughout the entire game Shipgirls interact normally with everything

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

I'm really mad right now cuz busy working and DBH revision and someone decide to slap this at my face

Conceptual Manipulation: You isolated the word "concept" in the entire paragraph to give conceptual manipulation, what??

Isolated how? I literally quoted the context of the whole conversation regarding the idea of Mirror Seas having a conceptual foundation that actively sustains them. Even the japanese and chinese dialogues are pretty clear and consistent with the idea that a Mirror Sea is not totally physical, but instead it's more of an abstract plane. Saying that I "isolated" without further elaborating on it will not invalidate my point, unless you actually bring some good argument countering what I'm saying.

nothing you present here is related to neo-plato concept or something similar.

It was a joke broU (see the "Jajaj" next to the title?). It wasn't meant to be taken so seriously.

And in the same bunch of dialog you posted, it also said there is a device to generate and control the mirror sea

You mean the same dialogue that is literally telling you that there's not a real physical foundation in the Mirror Sea?

Law Manipulation: control the law inside a pocket reality doesn't grant you actual Law Manipulation

I like how you literally said that manipulating a law is not manipulating a law.

Reality Warping: what??, in the entire game, Siren doesn't actually warp the reality, they spawn Mirror Sea and control the reality of that picket dimension

Souryuu META is the one who is manipulating the reality of the Mirror Sea. It should also be PRM for her, yeah, but since she doesn't really owns that plane, then I see it more fitting to RW as a whole. Plus, well, there are many stuff about Sirens manipulating reality through the game, so anywayy.

Causality Manipulation: what???, Siren and possibly META ship using Mirror Sea which is a Pocket Dimension to simulating a particular event, in New Jersey event it is iirc it is simulating the Midway Atoll battle where Soryuu and her sister lost again Eagle Union/American fleet) simulating something doesn't = causality unless more context is involved. Throughout the entire event, the simulation continue to repeat, and it don't affect outside character when they enter, and the effect are limited inside the pocket reality

I mean, something being "limited" to certain space doesn't really means it's not in fact that thing. Being a simulation or not, knowing all the general idea of Sirens controlling causality and fate it seems possible, but oh well, I still don't have enough information about that, so I'm gonna concede this point (for now).

Information Manipulation: nothing indicated this, you pull this out of your brain at this point

Technically you could say that she is also manipulating the information of the Mirror Sea, but oh well.

Hacking: while Helena META did hack the Mirror Sea, right now only her shown the ability to do that, we don't scale to all META ship unless more ships capable of doing the same thing.

Well I also very iffy with making scaling of abilities between characters, but now it's something logical, because Helena gained those new abilities because, exactly, she is a META ship right now. I don't see why the scaling can't work here knowing that.

now to another importance stuff:
Abstract Existence:

Now it's time for the cherry on the cake!

Sorry but that is now flowery language, in the Khorovod of Dawn event, Belorussiya said "We started out looking for an exit, but now we're also searching for the truth behind the Sirens, and behind our very existences", it contradict to the claim Akashi said about shipgirls, in Shinano event she said she is the hope of her nation, but it is by itself have nothing aside some metaphor meaning like i'm the hope of this person, he is her hope, you putting your hope in someone to do something for you etc...........Same with what Akagi said about the black box.

Correct, they are still searching over how exactly Wisdom Cubes work. However, their further investigations on the topic doesn't totally invalidates what we already have. I don't know if I'm an illiterate or something, but I don't see how any of this contradicts any of Akashi's statements about Shipgirls, unless you can make a solid argument for this. And once more, we are talking about Akashi, someone who is knowledgeable enough in the studies of Wisdom Cubes and how Ships are created. Invalidating her word is not as simple as you think, you know?
Regarding all the other stuff about "metaphor" and "flowery language", I still find laughable how most people with the intend of nerf and shit like that always use that same excuse of yours right now, without even elaborating why it should be flowery language. And honestly, my friend, your case is not different from the others. I didn't even used that Shinano statement, I literally cited one in which she directly says that she is the embodiment of humanity's dreams and hope, and the manifestation of their wishes and will of fight. How is that in any context something metaphorical? A better question, why would Akashi even speak rhetoric when explaining the basics concepts of Wisdom Cubes and Shipgirls to us? Literally 0 reason for that.

But ok, let's assume that, for some strange reason, everything is flowery because we don't like women being so op (j8). Even ignoring all of the things that they are telling to us straight to the face, the game itself supports Akashi's statements:

And idk, but I really doubt that information like that can be treated as a metaphor or something.

Next is in the same Khorovod of Dawn event chapter 20, shipgirls speculate that in order to manifest shipgirl, it is require to insert data into it, but again they just guessing all this stuff thus leading to vague knowledge regarding shipgirls existence

What I already debunked above.

This is the Operation Siren File, and it mention that Wisdom Cube come from a Meteorite which was used to replace "current" energy like nuclear, electricity, all other thing. And the file contain the information of the "future timeline" where is the original shipgirls was born, those later become META ship, right now no ACTUAL INFORMATION on how shipgirl appear and manifest themselves, iirc Khorovod of Dawn event also said that the first shipgirl and wisdom cube appear as they don't know how shipgirl, and only specific shipgirls who come from WWII era can manifest themselves, they can't do the same thing to more modern ship

I want to answer this with a question:
If a chair had wheels, would it be a skateboard?
Because whatever to answer to that, it has more sense with what you are trying to address here. Because I don't know what has one thing to do with the other. Coming from a meteorite or not doesn't contradicts anything of my arguments, because even so, it's common knowledge that Wisdom Cubes are Siren technology, used by humans to, exactly, manifest their thoughts in order to create weapons against them.
Besides that, I find laughable how your very files are literally saying that the meteorites aren't just like the ones in our reality, but something quite more primordial:

……It is highly likely that the ancient ■ Big Bang was produced by the impact of a meteorite, which corresponds to the main idea in the famous hypothesis of meteorites that has always existed. Of course, the actual situation and the hypothesis in the details of the deviation is not small.

I also found this part quite interesting. Thank you for proving me that these meteorites aren't totally natural ones:

The study shows that the meteorites that came to Earth first disintegrated into several segments in the air due to atmospheric friction and hit the ground separately, thus forming three distinct explosion craters. According to calculations, the three impacts in the ancient ■■ area were only some of the meteorites' fall sites, and there is a high probability that all other meteorites whose orbits were changed by the explosions fell into the polar regions. These meteorite fragments, because of their special nature, "blended" into their surroundings in a short period of time. As a result, no meteorite fragments were ever found at the site, and the secret has remained hidden until now. ……

Now I think that's all I have to say about this topic. So following:

Non-Corporeality:
Huh, what, no they never show any feat like this, please stop

Type 8 Immortality:
lol, why you using gameplay and mechanic for this, and for the record, nothing stated Hood actually dead, the intro only show her got damaged, you use real life history for this which invalid as this game is not actually follow, Bismarck was said to not dead and still revoering, thus F.D.G leading Iron Blood instead, same with Jean Bart who also get recover while in real life history, two of them should be deep under the ocean

I'm using gameplay and "mechanics" because they are consistent with my statements and the information I provided + I don't see why nothing of what I showed is actually a "game mechanic". A game mechanic should be things like cinematic scenes, turn-based fights, and things that limits the gameplay, not other stuff like what you are pointing out. Besides that, I don't recall using real life history nowhere here , and well, from what I know Hood in fact was destroyed, and yet, you can roll for her, which should mean something, idk.

Avatar Creation:
huh what, nowhere it was stated the current appearance is their avatar???

ships gained the ability to manifest in human form, nya!

Bruh.

Lastly:

First of all, Operation Siren File literally debunk the entire notion of which Akagi stated in her interaction that Cube is the manifestion of human emotion or whatever it is because the file mention the cube come from meteorite which mean it is a physical object, human can also touch and ultilize it for energy resource.

Something that I explained above.

In order for being type 1 you need to exist as pure abstraction but the entire game never have anything support for this, thus turn the entire Akashi statement into nothing, and the way she said was very flowery and metaphor same with how Shinano monologue about herself being the hope of Sakura Empire.

And they are abstractions. Abstractions of humans ideals and desires. Look again here:

For ships to be able to manifest as humans... the Wisdom Cube allows the collections of various feelings, emotions, and images from an unspecified number of people to take on a physical form... in other words, a "collective body," nya.

Again, there's 0 reason and logic for Akashi to speak metaphorically when she's explaining the basic stuff about Wisdom Cubes, it just doesn't make any sense. Same with Shinano stuff.

Like Dragon Ball Infinite Zamasu, he was said by Gowasu to "become the order and justice" but it is flowery language and even then he have better feat because he lack physical body

You know? The main issue with this comparison is that Gowasu is not someone who has some exceptional knowledge about the topic, nor someone reliable for these kind of statements. And not only that, but also, the context in which he claimed that was one of pure desperation and exaggeration. Things that, as you can see, are not met with Akashi, who on this occasion is simply giving us the basic knowledge of how the Ships and their stuff works.

also born from abstraction is not enough for AE1, you need to exist purely as abstraction which mean you can't interact with them normally, throughout the entire game Shipgirls interact normally with everything

They are NOT only born from abstractions. They are the abstractions. I seriously need to post everything again and again, just to state the evident?

I'll explain, nya~! Decades ago, with the appearance of the Sirens and the "Wisdom Cube," ships gained the ability to manifest in human form, nya!
Although the technology that has come with the Wisdom Cubes has allowed us to hold our ground against the Sirens, that alone will not allow us to make any breakthroughs, nya...
For ships to be able to manifest as humans... the Wisdom Cube allows the collections of various feelings, emotions, and images from an unspecified number of people to take on a physical form... in other words, a "collective body," nya.

Their physical form is nothing but a vessel created by Wisdom Cubes, but their true core is purely the feelings, emotions, and images of the people.

That why i sometime hate Chinese produce, they love to put flowery, poetic words in their produce but we take them too serious. I know sooner or later this will come, but eh can we just wait for more information 0.0. What next, 2-A Siren and META ship???

Hoho~. If you really liked this revision so much, you will absolutely love what is next to come haha~

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

That being said, i still disagree with Type 1 Abstract Existence and Non-Corporeality since shipgirls were stated to be given physical form many times. I think Type 2 could work but i want hear others on this too.

Well, as I said in the OP, the physical form doesn't seems to be their real body, but in fact, just some kind of vessel that was created thanks to Wisdom Cubes technology, while the true Ship is all that union of ideas and feelings generated from a certain source. That's why I see this physical form to be most likely an avatar.

 

[Vietthai96]

1. Do you even understand the meaning of the word concept here????, you should re-read the Conceptual Manipulating page, nothing here show the concept of mirror sea is something conceptual or mirror sea itself is something conceptual, you literally isolated the word concept and foundation in the entire line to wank it up to Conceptual
2. Changing the law inside PRM is already including in PRM, Law Manip is you can manip the entire universal law, which Siren and META still not show
3. Again, throughout the entire game, where Siren warp the actual reality itself??, warp reality inside a pocket dimension is still PRM
4. So where is the scan for Information Manipulation again????, or you claim it yourself that hey, they manipulating Mirror Sea thus they should manipulating Information of it?????
5. Right now only Helena show Hacking, so no we don't scaling to other META, unless other META show the same, nothing even said when they become META they gain those kind of skills???
6. You literally using gameplay mechanic and gameplay, nothing in lore suggest you "gacha roll" the character, and roll the character is a gameplay feature of gacha game itself

For now that is it, too busy, AE will be later after solving those thing

 

[Jamesthetaker]

.......

I have check Operation Siren File and nothing actually contradict Akashi and Kirov statement about shipgirls existence. Literally the same thing being stated few times already and from multiple source as well, calling it flowery and metaphor ain't cut it, especially since the former two are haven't talked in cryptic ever. I've said that i disagree with AE type 1 but type 2 are very possible.

 

[Vietthai96]

I have check Operation Siren File and nothing actually contradict Akashi and Kirov statement about shipgirls existence. Literally the same thing being stated few times already and from multiple source as well, calling it flowery and metaphor ain't cut it, especially since the former two are haven't talked in cryptic ever. I've said that i disagree with AE type 1 but type 2 are very possible.

And??? Where is the feat to support AE??, a bunch of statement do nothing if there is no feat to back up, then it will be treat as flowery until proven???

 

[Jamesthetaker]

The evidence is already presented above, shipgirls are described as a collective body formed by humanity's perception, the history of that ship are prerequisite to a ship's construction. That much alone is enough to give AE type 2.

Honestly, i think you're probably the most knowledgeable in Concept/Abstract ideal here so you should known it already.

 

[Vietthai96]

The evidence is already presented above, shipgirls are described as a collective body formed by humanity's perception, the history of that ship are prerequisite to a ship's construction. That much alone is enough to give AE type 2.

Honestly, i think you're probably the most knowledgeable in Concept/Abstract ideal here so you should known it already.

Like i said before, we have no feat to back up the statement, this is a controversal ability, a bunch of statement hardly do anything, unless the wiki is generous allow us to have a possible rating

 

[Jamesthetaker]

What kind of visual feat need for Abstract Existence, especially since 90% of characters with said ability come from statement alone. AL have explicitly stated this many times and there is nothing contradict them otherwise.

Anyway, gonne give my opinion for the CRT soon.

 

[Vietthai96]

In order to be AE type 1 you need feat Shipgirls can exist purely as abstraction, but visual is very hard for this game so some statement about them can't be touched and interacted through normal mean, and they exist purely as an emotion, hope or will, etc.....is enough for a possibly rating. You can see Infinite Zamasu (Dragon Ball Super) profile for more informations, he have a possibly AE1

In order to be AE type 2 you need to embodies an abstraction, easiest way is embodies a concept. Now this type, loke you said is possible to have, and i'm not disagree with your view, but iirc the requirement is very strict, for example they rely on those abstraction, this is really hard to qualify because we doesn't deal with anything conceptual here,

About Wisdom Cube, the game and Operation Siren file debunk the Cube being something abstraction as they are come from a meteorite and somewhat being stated thay human can interact normally and physically with it to do experiment and make technology, even us player who play the character Commander in Northern Union event physically touch the Cube, so right now the cube is a physical object, not abstract object so any claim regarding it as manifestation of something abstraction is fail flat.

Well that it, i would love to have more information to wank- ahem upgrade the verse but right now it is not the time

 

[Jamesthetaker]

AE type 2 are basically abstract ideal given physical form which mean they can be interacted by normal people.

• Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.

The Wisdom Cube is indeed physical object, and so is the shipgirls, but statement of them being collective body is undeniably true. If you look across some example of AE type 2 (Demons from SMT, Devil from Chainsaw Man, etc), they are beings comprised of unconscious thought but at the same time, they have physical body and can be destroyed through convential means.

 

[Vietthai96]

The Wisdom Cube is indeed physical object, and so is the shipgirls, but statement of them being collective body is undeniably true. If you look across some example of AE type 2 (Demons from SMT, Devil from Chainsaw Man, etc), they are beings comprised of unconscious thought but at the same time, they have physical body and can be destroyed through convential means.

Well i'm too busy, but your point regarding SMT is wrong, in SMT character normal attack deal damage on information and conceptual level. I don't know about Chainsaw Man though

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Putting SMT aside, there are AE type 2 characters without incororeality, there is just too much that i can't point out specifically.

 

[Vietthai96]

Putting SMT aside, there are AE type 2 characters without incororeality, there is just too much that i can't point out specifically.

Well AE2 can have physical body, but you can't kill them because their core existence is the concept/abstraction itself, they always return from it, you can only destroy their vessel not the core of their being, and currently all AE2 character this kind of feat and statement to back-up, and most of them have Immortality type 8

 

[Jamesthetaker]

@Hecatia_Gaming, Regarding AE stuff, here my thought on other things:

Incorporeality and Non-Physical Interaction: Disagree for reason above

Avatar Creation: I don't think this is correct, nothing ever implied shipgirls true form is abstract. The main purpose of Wisdome Cube is to bring physical body to them so giving this are against the idea in first place.

Type 8 Immortality: This would tied to Abstract Existence which will be discuss later.

Spatial Manipulation: This is fine

Reality Warping should be change into Pocket Dimension Manipulation to be exact

Conceptual Manipulation: Neutral on this, Purifier explicitly point out the foundation behind the concept of Mirror Sea which implied it to be literal. I also favour the chinese text on this one because it's the original version, but unfortunately, i can't give an answer for now.

Causality Manipulation: Disagree for @Vietthai96 reason above

Hacking: This is exclusive to Helena Meta only, i think.

Information Manipulation: I'm guessing this is because they can control the Mirror Sea? I would like to see more info on this.

Law Manipulation: This is fine. Control the law inside a restricted space is still considered Law Manipulation, but do you have better scans?

 

[Vietthai96]

@Vietthai96 reason above

Hacking: This is exclusive to Helena Meta only, i think.

Information Manipulation: I'm guessing this is because they can control the Mirror Sea? I would like to see more info on this.

Law Manipulation: This is fine. Control the law inside a restricted space is still considered Law Manipulation, but do you have better scans?

1. Currently, yes only Helena for now (but she still doesn't have profile)
2. Unless they actually manipulating thing on information level, we don't using guess and assumption
3. No, changing law inside a pocket reality is already including in Pocket Reality Manipulation, Law Manipulation require you to manipulating it on universal scale or actually reality not a pocket one. This is the standard itself

 

[Jamesthetaker]

You don't need to manipulate law on universal scales to actually have it, control law on lesser degree is still valid.

 

[Vietthai96]

You don't need to manipulate law on universal scales to actually have it, control law on lesser degree is still valid.

Actual reality bro, did you read???

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Yes, i did read it. Again, lesser Law Manipulation still exist. When a character are said to take control of a reality, whether it is entire world or pocket dimension, and manipulate the law inside then it's valid. If we discard that logic then everyone below 5-B/Low 2-C wouldn't allow to have Law Manipulation.

 

[Vietthai96]

Yes, i did read it. Again, lesser Law Manipulation still exist. When a character are said to take control of a reality, whether it is entire world or pocket dimension, and manipulate the law inside then it's valid. If we discard that logic then everyone below 5-B/Low 2-C wouldn't allow to have Law Manipulation.

Actual reality, not a pocket one, manipulating law of a pocket one is already INCLUDING in POCKET REALITY MANIPULATION

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Law Manipulation is add-on to Pocket Reality Manipulation in this case, they normally doesn't go together.

Nen users can imposed laws onto themselves, Espers from ToAru can project their power based on personal reality.

 

[Vietthai96]

Law Manipulation is add-on to Pocket Reality Manipulation in this case, they normally doesn't go together.

Nen users can imposed laws onto themselves, Espers from ToAru can project their power based on personal reality.

And nothing Siren ever show that they can impose their law on the actual reality itself, the only thing they ever do is create a pocket dimension. Emiya Shirou from Fate even impose his Reality Mable and overlap it with the Reality of the World using World Egg Theory and yet he only have Pocket Reality Manipulation. I think it time for you to stop bring other things into the thread and actually debate for once

Like i said before manipulating law inside a pocket on is already including in PRM, we only need to write a detail description of how Siren's PRM work and their effect

 

[Jamesthetaker]

What i'm doing until now? I give my argument already man.

Law Manipulation can be discard for reason above.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

What is the main argument here?

 

[Jamesthetaker]

@Hecatia_Gaming, Regarding AE stuff, here my thought on other things:

Incorporeality and Non-Physical Interaction: Disagree for reason above

Avatar Creation: I don't think this is correct, nothing ever implied shipgirls true form is abstract. The main purpose of Wisdome Cube is to bring physical body to them so giving this are against the idea in first place.

Type 8 Immortality: This would tied to Abstract Existence which will be discuss later.

Spatial Manipulation: This is fine

Reality Warping should be change into Pocket Dimension Manipulation to be exact

Conceptual Manipulation: Neutral on this, Purifier explicitly point out the foundation behind the concept of Mirror Sea which implied it to be literal. I also favour the chinese text on this one because it's the original version, but unfortunately, i can't give an answer for now.

Causality Manipulation: Disagree for @Vietthai96 reason above

Hacking: This is exclusive to Helena Meta only, i think.

Information Manipulation: I'm guessing this is because they can control the Mirror Sea? I would like to see more info on this.

Law Manipulation: This is fine. Control the law inside a restricted space is still considered Law Manipulation, but do you have better scans?

This, except Law Manipulation are disagree for reason above. Abstract Existence and Immortality are still being discussed.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That makes sense to me yeah.

 

[Vietthai96]

Lol, after re-read the thread, all of the accepted abilities belong to a bunch of characters that not have a single profile lol

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Lol, after re-read the thread, all of the accepted abilities belong to a bunch of characters that not have a single profile lol

James right now:

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Not really since Hiryuu META would get Mirror Sea stuff. I probably won't able to respond until tomorrow and in mean time, i will look deeper into controversial stuff.

 

[Vietthai96]

Wait, why we use Hololive event dialog again, they are from collaboration with Hololive, and collab is non-canon to the source material

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Why is collab non-canon? They are literally happened in the same timeline.