• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

At the boundary of tier 0: Swirl of the root tier 0 upgrade

Status
Not open for further replies.
Okay. Thank you for helping out. 🙏
 
I just thought about it again. Excluding all the characteristics the root has that makes it a monad, The Root is also explicitly referred to as "The One" more than once and also referenced to Neoplatonism as well indicating its monadism. Why do we still have to debate if it qualifies for tier 0 or not when we literally have statements claiming it's "The One?"

Tbh, all arguments against it so far cannot deny what the Root is explicitly referred to? I only see arguments against it as a waste of time.
 
I just thought about it again. Excluding all the characteristics the root has that makes it a monad, The Root is also explicitly referred to as "The One" more than once and also referenced to Neoplatonism as well indicating its monadism. Why do we still have to debate if it qualifies for tier 0 or not when we literally have statements claiming it's "The One?"
I mean presumably being called by a semiotic reference to some ultimate reality is not sufficient evidence for something like Tier 0, there's already more backup evidence not even used here, I really doubt there can be a case against the Swirl of the root being Tier 0.
Their still seems to be some sort of argument happening between knowledgeable members on whether their is anti-feats or not, so we are waiting to see how that progresses before saying anything.
We're just waiting for deagon I guess, he said he had more to say throughout the week but hasn't said anything so far.
 
Maybe but idk, whatever omnipotence it is, it just doesn't have practical applications it would be useless to put her at High 1-A+ if she can't even exercise that power, the only possible way to reason against it is her saying she restricts herself but I'm not sure.
I'm still a bit confused about this.

From what I've understood, Tier 0 can't be reduced in "power", as in, in terms of potency. You can't take "A part of the tier 0" that would result in a city level feat, for example. Like Shiki explained herself, since she's a "part of it", she means she's "it" since the part equal the sum in these circumstances.

While I have no real problem with The Root itself, I still don't understand why everyone/everything having a deep/"active" connection to The Root (MEODP users, Aoko through her Magic, Manaka, ...) wouldn't be granted tier 0 potency to at least some of their hax? Like, sure, their connection may be feeble, weaker than Shiki, and everything you can think of, but the "source of energy" they are using is still the Root itself and like Shiki explained, even a part of it is still "it".

Let's take the MEODP for example. Obviously, Shiki Tohno doesn't have the same "potency" or "capability to kill" from the beginning to the end, we can agree on this. However, the hax itself comes from the Root, so while the application itself (eyes/Shiki capability/Brain capacity,...) may be limited in some form, the potency of it shouldn't.

I may be wrong on this, but if you can enlighten me on this, I'll be grateful 🙏
 
From what I've understood, Tier 0 can't be reduced in "power", as in, in terms of potency.
I don't know what is meant by this, can you be more elaborate?
You can't take "A part of the tier 0" that would result in a city level feat, for example. Like Shiki explained herself, since she's a "part of it", she means she's "it" since the part equal the sum in these circumstances.
Same with this.
While I have no real problem with The Root itself, I still don't understand why everyone/everything having a deep/"active" connection to The Root (MEODP users, Aoko through her Magic, Manaka, ...) wouldn't be granted tier 0 potency to at least some of their hax?
Because "deeper connection" is largely unquantifiable, my point is emanations implies everything being a part of the ultimate reality and but the degree of unity you have to the ultimate reality in essence can vary, for example in neoplatonism the Nous has a deeper unity with the ultimate reality than the material world as a whole and "The Good" is the closest emanation of "The One" of the one and has a more fundamental unity with the ultimate reality than the Nous as a whole and the material world.

Saying having a deeper connection to the Swirl of the root implies Tier 0 hax is just as bad as saying the reflection principles imply every large cardinal is identical to the entire universe of sets.
Like, sure, their connection may be feeble, weaker than Shiki, and everything you can think of, but the "source of energy" they are using is still the Root itself and like Shiki explained, even a part of it is still "it".
That's the thing tho, that sentiment immediately implies Ryougi Shiki is different from everyone else, that's why she says "everyone is connected to it, but I am a part of it and wouldn't you say a part of it is the whole?", the rest of the cast is just connected to it and that's that. I wouldn't disagree with true magic being possibly High 1-A+, I definitely agree with atleast High 1-A+ hax for the mystic eyes tho but that's another topic, I think it's better to clear out the Tier for the root itself first.
Let's take the MEODP for example. Obviously, Shiki Tohno doesn't have the same "potency" or "capability to kill" from the beginning to the end, we can agree on this. However, the hax itself comes from the Root, so while the application itself (eyes/Shiki capability/Brain capacity,...) may be limited in some form, the potency of it shouldn't.
I don't have problems with this.
 
I don't know what is meant by this, can you be more elaborate?
Well, I might have read wrong or understood poorly but :

Needless to say: Division in a Tier 0 is inadmissible. There is no such thing as a "fragment" of a Tier 0 in a literal sense, and neither is there such a thing as "Half the power of a Tier 0", or anything similar. It cannot be "broken down" into more basic component parts, and neither is it possible for multiple characters to fuse in a way that the product of their powers (Even if greater than the sum of its parts) yields a Tier 0

Furthermore: While lower tiers permit a division between a character's statistics and the nature of their existence (e.g. A character can have 1-A power but be physically 3-D), such a division is not possible in a Tier 0. However, a loophole of sorts is present if a character is, in some way, fully backed up by one. For example, if a character has the full favor of a Tier 0, who blesses and empowers them to be protected from all harm. Alternatively, a character could also be an avatar, or incarnation, of a Tier 0.
While the explanation themselves are for the Tier 0 being/entity, I think taking the opposite approach, aka, "someone having access to the Tier 0 of the verse should therefore only have Tier 0 potency and not something lesser" seems reasonable enough.

Shiki is The Root itself, so she's excluded of this problem, however for the rest it's more complicated. Let's take Magecraft. Magecraft, like everything in the verse, comes from The Root, but obviously, it doesn't mean that any mage is suddenly using "tier 0 potency" just because of this. "Magecraft" is just a self-degration straying away from The Root/simplicity. Mages have connection to the root through lesser things, Mage don't directly contact The Root to create spells, they manipulate something lesser to achieve an equally lesser result.

This is not the case with any individual having "direct" connection to The Root. Instead of using a lesser concept to achieve a lesser result, you have a direct connection with the fundamental being of the verse.

Manaka can use her connection to The Root to see virtually anything, aka, achieving omniscience. That ability of her is limited by her human body and magical circuit, but the concept is there. She would be omniscient (or nigh-omniscient?) not because of the Root Itself/because the potency of it is lesser, but because of her own human limitation.
Because "deeper connection" is largely unquantifiable, my point is emanations implies everything being a part of the ultimate reality and but the degree of unity you have to the ultimate reality in essence can vary, for example in neoplatonism the Nous has a deeper unity with the ultimate reality than the material world as a whole and "The Good" is the closest emanation of "The One" of the one and has a more fundamental unity with the ultimate reality than the Nous as a whole and the material world.

Saying having a deeper connection to the Swirl of the root implies Tier 0 hax is just as bad as saying the reflection principles imply every large cardinal is identical to the entire universe of sets.
I agree, it can't be logically quantified, but the source you use to get power shouldn't change? From what I can understand, that you have the tiniest of connection with it (and can at least use that connection in some meaningful way, not just a "passive" connection) or a connection that makes you the closest being from The Root, it should still use the "Tier 0" as a way to achieve a certain result.
That's the thing tho, that sentiment immediately implies Ryougi Shiki is different from everyone else, that's why she says "everyone is connected to it, but I am a part of it and wouldn't you say a part of it is the whole?
I mean, yeah, with the explanation you and Tdjwo have given to me, it seems logical to say Shiki is different from the rest.
I don't have problems with this.
Okay, we agree on this, then.
 
I just thought about it again. Excluding all the characteristics the root has that makes it a monad, The Root is also explicitly referred to as "The One" more than once and also referenced to Neoplatonism as well indicating its monadism. Why do we still have to debate if it qualifies for tier 0 or not when we literally have statements claiming it's "The One?"

Tbh, all arguments against it so far cannot deny what the Root is explicitly referred to? I only see arguments against it as a waste of time.
I LITERALLY MENTIONED THIS IN THE POST
 
While the explanation themselves are for the Tier 0 being/entity, I think taking the opposite approach, aka, "someone having access to the Tier 0 of the verse should therefore only have Tier 0 potency and not something lesser" seems reasonable enough.
Depends on what you mean by having "access to it", as of now I can't tell what the implications of that would be.
Shiki is The Root itself, so she's excluded of this problem, however for the rest it's more complicated. Let's take Magecraft. Magecraft, like everything in the verse, comes from The Root, but obviously, it doesn't mean that any mage is suddenly using "tier 0 potency" just because of this. "Magecraft" is just a self-degration straying away from The Root/simplicity.
This applies to true magic, it's an immediate emanation of the Swirl of the root yes, but because it's an emanation of the Swirl of the root I don't think it shouldn't be Tier 0. The moment the ultimate reality takes a step at emanating something(not to be taken literal because emanation is a passive eternal process), what is emanated doesn't represent the fullness of it and only a weaker reflection of the fullness of it.

This is where the distinction between connection and being a part of it comes from, the origin of Emptiness is just identical to being without attributes just as Ryougi's 3rd personality explains how because "it's nothing", it can't have "intellect or significance". It's less of a byproduct of the Swirl of the root but a representative of the essence of the Swirl of the root itself, I'm open minded to possibly High 1-A+ again for true magic because it's a direct emanation of the Swirl of the root.
I agree, it can't be logically quantified, but the source you use to get power shouldn't change? From what I can understand, that you have the tiniest of connection with it (and can at least use that connection in some meaningful way, not just a "passive" connection) or a connection that makes you the closest being from The Root, it should still use the "Tier 0" as a way to achieve a certain result.
Still disagree if at the end of the day, you're an emanation of it rather than being it but you can ask for ultima's thoughts on this.
 
We're just waiting for deagon I guess, he said he had more to say throughout the week but hasn't said anything so far.
I will, but I had college assignments due Monday and Tuesday, so between that and work I've been preoccupied. I have worked on it, but I plan to make the full case all at once rather than trickle in with individual scans or something like that.

As a small aside, that scan doesn't say "emanation." It says true magic is "directly connected" and contrasts that against magecraft is "derived from" the root.
 
As a small aside, that scan doesn't say "emanation." It says true magic is "directly connected" and contrasts that against magecraft is "derived from" the root.


Here's the scene from the updated official English translation. It starts at around 1:47:40.

In this translation, Magic comes directly from the Root.

Though, I want to point out that none of the Magicians ever gained True Magic by reaching and entering the Root. They all made a pathway to the Root, but they turned back before fully reaching it (which is probably a good thing for them because anything that actually enters the Root is erased from existence).
 
Though, I want to point out that none of the Magicians ever gained True Magic by reaching and entering the Root. They all made a pathway to the Root, but they turned back before fully reaching it (which is probably a good thing for them because anything that actually enters the Root is erased from existence).
That is a bit different from how the rest of that chapter describes it.

Magic, True Magic, isn't just some manuscript derived from the Swirl of the Root like magecraft is, but something that comes directly from the Root itself."

"As for the Swirl of the Root, well... The simplest way I can describe it so you'll understand is to compare it to the sun. The Sun is really far away, and has been there from the beginning as far as we're concerned. Without it, you and I wouldn't be able to live."

"Magecraft merely lets us take advantage of the Sun's benefits, so to speak. Magecraft is all about imitating or paying for natural phenomena. We can use it to study, practice, and recreate Mystics-mysteries-but it can never truly create them. Actually, no matter how much you learn, you eventually hit a wall. It's like a limiter that human knowledge can never overcome."

"And beyond that wall is where Magic, the Sun itself, exists. To attain it means to go where no one can go, and awaken miracles no one could possibly reproduce. A technique to make things happen that humanity could never hope to accomplish with any amount of time or resources... that's True Magic."

"It's about overcoming that dimensional wall-like, running until you reach the end where you'll find a world with completely different rules from ours. That's the only way you can, well, learn it."

"I told you before that magecraft has no limits, right? Well I meant that it has no limits within the scope of human knowledge. Meanwhile, Magic has lots of limits; as in, it can only do one thing, and one thing alone. Makes sense, right? I mean, we're talking about unique, rule-breaking concepts and mechanisms that exist outside the boundaries of the very universe."
"So... Magic is more amazing than magecraft. I think I get the general idea but... It's really limited?"

"Kinda. It's more like an exception a special privilege or an abuse of power. It's not versatile but in making the impossible possible it's all-powerful as far as magecraft is concerned." "Magic is like a reward a mage gets when reaching the Swirl of the Root and that even goes for mages who don't possess the mettle to wield it. Just making a path to the Root gives them free reign to use it in magecraft terms. In short it's like becoming the richest person in the world."

"The richest person in the world... In which case does it mean that no matter how rich you are only the richest person gets to have Magic?"

"...I guess so sure. ...Sometimes you sure get to the right conclusion from the weirdest of places. It's like you said-there are many routes and theories to reach the Root but unless you're first to the post Magic will elude you. No matter how good you are if you're not the first you're everyone else."

"There are only five... no four Magicians. And there are only four because once that path to the Root has been taken by one Magician it's closed off to all others. But it wasn't always like that in ancient times. Ironically mankind is responsible for closing off the paths to the Root; we've built walls that stand between us and the 'truth.'"

"The mages of old could never have imagined that the more we explored the unknown the more paths we would seal off. But the result was exactly that and by the time they realized it it was too late. After all that studying True Magic had all but disappeared from the world."

Then later in Chapter 12:
There's just one last thing to ask. What was it like touching the Root?"

She recalled her grandfather's orders. The source of True Magic. Revealing one's knowledge or impressions of the Root was strictly forbidden. But this was her sister's dying wish; maybe it would be okay?

"To be honest, I don't remember anything."
"I thought I told you. She wanted to get revenge against me, and then there's the whole coming in contact with the Root thing. We already talked about the Swirl of the Root, remember?" "Right. And also its end goal. The place where all knowledge is recorded, where all matters are settled. To see, touch, and understand it makes even the impossible possible. It has gone by many names over the years, but you could say it's where God lives."

This is also more or less how it's described in FSN (although FSN uses "sorcery" for True Magic and "origin" for the root.)
Even though the details are different, all sorceries are a way to reach the origin! What does it have to do with the Holy Grail?"

"No. First of all, there's only one administrated land in Japan that can activate a sorcery.
I know the ley line in Fuyuki is first-class, but there's not enough distortion to connect to the origin."

"Right. It's not distorted enough to reach the origin. That's why you make a hole. If the path is obstructed, you have to destroy the wall yourself, right?"

"The Holy Grail War is the process of destroying the wall.

When the Holy Grail successfully connects to the origin, the "other side" of the world as it's described in FSN, you get access to a great deal of magical energy.
The Holy Grail collects the souls of the defeated heroic spirits and acts as the reactor core to activate the Great Holy Grail." "And once the Holy Grail collects enough souls to activate the Great Holy Grail, it uses the heroic spirits' souls to open a hole. The Great Holy Grail fixes the small hole created when the heroic spirits return to their original place after their roles are fulfilled. This opens up the passage to the origin that humans cannot reach." "Of course, this is just the first step. Your wish isn't granted even if the hole is opened. The path to the origin is too far." "But―――the one who obtains the Holy Grail gains access to unlimited magical energy. The other side has large quantities of unused mana unlike anything seen on this side. For an ordinary magus, it's nothing short of a miracle."
"Ah, yes. I must tell you what that shadow is before anything else. In short, that is the content of the Holy Grail. People say the Holy Grail is an omnipotent pot, but the Holy Grail we aim for is not a pot. The Holy Grail is only a means. Einzbern, Makiri, and Tohsaka. What the three families aim for is to open a gate using the complete Holy Grail.
You can think of the complete Holy Grail as a gate to connect this world to a world where every wish comes true."
"...Hold on. Then the Holy Grail is..."
"Yes. The goal of every magus is to reach the origin. But I am not interested in such a thing. The Einzberns only thought for the completion of the Holy Grail. Tohsaka is the only family of magi that is still aiming for the origin."
..In short, the Holy Grail War is not a battle to obtain the Holy Grail, but a ritual to escape to the outside world. Attempts to reach the outside world. According to hermeticism, there's a power that governs dimensional theory outside of this world. It's called the 'swirl of the origin', and it's a coordinate that's considered to be the beginning of all things. It's the start and the end of all creation. It's the seat of God, recording everything and able to create anything
So, to summarize. Yes you can literally go and see, touch, reach, and understand the root. Usually this results in your soul getting absorbed into the root and you can't come back to the normal world, but there are exceptions. Creating true magic literally means reaching the root. It means breaching the dimensional wall between this world and the Root, which is said to have "large quantities of unused mana, unlike anything seen on this side."

True Magic is "directly connected" to the Root. It's not an emanation. Magecraft is merely derived from the Root, but True Magic comes from the Root itself. The two are expressly contrasted.
 
On behalf of @Paul_Frank, who is not able to post atm.
So, to summarize. Yes you can literally go and see, touch, reach, and understand the root. Usually this results in your soul getting absorbed into the root and you can't come back to the normal world, but there are exceptions. Creating true magic literally means reaching the root. It means breaching the dimensional wall between this world and the Root, which is said to have "large quantities of unused mana, unlike anything seen on this side."
"{This} is purposefully being a bit dishonest, because its not even 4 text boxes after the part of Aoko's speech that he quotes, where she explains that what she just said is unproven because its impossible to actually touch the Root and exist, and instead as she says, what happens is you stablize your magecraft and retreat so you keep existing."
True Magic is "directly connected" to the Root. It's not an emanation. Magecraft is merely derived from the Root, but True Magic comes from the Root itself. The two are expressly contrasted.
"nothing he posted says that, instead saying "it comes from the root" which doesn't mean a connection at all, because we see what a connection to the root is vs what True Magic is"

"Everything else he posted is irrelevant because he just highlighted more things to make it seem like his point had more evidence, when the part that was his point (people can touch and understand it) had 2 quotes implying it, which are explained in the same chapter they come from within minutes in game"

image.png
image.png
image.png

I believe that's all.
 
"{This} is purposefully being a bit dishonest, because its not even 4 text boxes after the part of Aoko's speech that he quotes, where she explains that what she just said is unproven because its impossible to actually touch the Root and exist, and instead as she says, what happens is you stablize your magecraft and retreat so you keep existing."
Nothing says "its impossible to touch and exist." It says that if you touch it you are sucked into it and never come out, because you become a god. There was one exception, someone that went there and came back, and thats how we know what we know about it. Then she ponders if the first person to become a god got lonely and wanted companionship there.

"Everything else he posted is irrelevant because he just highlighted more things to make it seem like his point had more evidence, when the part that was his point
No, everything else was pretty important too and was establishing similar, but distinct issues with the theory that the root is a Monad. You use a Greater Grail to open a hole in the dimensional wall that separates us from the Root, and you get large quantities of unused mana that are in the Root.
 
Nothing says "its impossible to touch and exist." It says that if you touch it you are sucked into it and never come out, because you become a god. There was one exception, someone that went there and came back, and thats how we know what we know about it. Then she ponders if the first person to become a god got lonely and wanted companionship there.
You may have missed it, but I posted images that say that in the spoiler tag to avoid clutter. Aoko specifically says "I meant that no one's ever come in contact with the Root and returned to talk about it. Not a single person in the entire world. Coming in contact with it means instant death. The soul of a mere human simply 'returns to the source,' so to speak. In other words, it gets sucked into the Root."

and

"That's why not even the greatest mages in history dared to touch it. Just coming close is enough to send them frantically trying to stabilize their magecraft."

Aoko also makes note that "There's not even proof that it's really the seat of the gods."
 
You may have missed it, but I posted images that say that in the spoiler tag to avoid clutter.
No, I didn't miss it. That is the same section of Mahoyo I'm referring to. I even quoted it. It never says anything like "stops existing" It says they are sucked into the Root and never come back out. The rest of what I mentioned is what comes after, about people who go there becoming gods and that the first person to become a god may have wanted companions there. One person did make it back after going there, which is the main source of information about it.
 
Nothing says "its impossible to touch and exist." It says that if you touch it you are sucked into it and never come out, because you become a god. There was one exception, someone that went there and came back, and thats how we know what we know about it. Then she ponders if the first person to become a god got lonely and wanted companionship there.

"Coming into contact with it means instant death. The soul of a mere human "returns to the source" so to speak. In other words, it gets sucked into the Root"
This is it being impossible to touch and exist. If you touch it and you're returned back into the source of all things where everything and nothing exists at once, you have in fact, stopped existing.

The entire scene you're talking about though reads as follows
"Then how does anyone know so much about this place?"
"Because there is one person who went and made it back."
"But you said there were no survivors..."
"Yeah, because everyone who's gone in turns into God, too."
She spoke very matter-of-factly. As if it was only a minor detail about something that had happened the other day.
"So why would they even bother coming back to our world? Or maybe they can't, who knows. Being God is probably totally different than what we imagine. I doubt it's very fun."
"..."
Whether they succeed or fail in their endeavor, those who reach the Root become unable to return to the normal world.
Maybe the first person to become God felt lonely and spread the word about the Swirl of the Root in order to have others join them there.
Or maybe they had so much work to do as God they just needed some help.
None of it made any sense no matter how long Soujyuro thought about it.
This is notably, not a very strong "oh yeah someone touched the root and came back", the entire scene is meant to be vague because its another theory. Aoko could be saying that the person in question went and made it back (just like a magician, which we see how that works), and never touched it, because notably, she never says this person went in.

Soujyuro then takes this and starts thinking how this could work, he wonders if that means someone touched it, became God and was lonely, or maybe needed help (Aoko is not the one who ponders this, mountain boy is), he even acknowledges that those who reach it can not return. He then comes to the conclusion that he can't make sense of it, which is because its meant to be illogical, its a theory to explain what many smarter mages than Aoko have outright said can't be explained.

When they say its the "Seat of God" Soujyuro also asks if she means gods like Shinto, to which she immediately differentiates it, noting that she's not talking about the gods that actually exist in the verse, but the supreme underlying force that predates everything that exists. This means when they're talking about becoming god, its the exact same as the images posted, what they actually mean is the person returns to the source, ceasing to exist on the spot in doing so, and in returning to the source, they are God, because the Root is God.

Note, Aoko also says right before this, that there's no proof its the Seat of God, this is to show us that, as I've said, this is a theory, not a definitive "yeah some unnamed person touched the Root and came back", which would go against literally everything said by anyone ever, if that ever happened, no one would feel any fear towards touching the Root, they'd all do it and not flee, and this person would be literally the most important person in the verse.

All in all, no, people can not touch the Root then just leave it, the literal passage you're using outright says they can not return, Aoko says no one ever made it back, we know that touching it makes you stop existing because we know what the Root is described as, and merging into that is you no longer existing. The entire passage is not meant to be a hyper literal "yeah this nobody touched the root but was fine and told us all about it" which is shown by the multiple explicit mentions of the fact that doing so is impossible, within that same exact scene.

No, everything else was pretty important too and was establishing similar, but distinct issues with the theory that the root is a Monad. You use a Greater Grail to open a hole in the dimensional wall that separates us from the Root, and you get large quantities of unused mana that are in the Root.
The point is that this part isn't relevant because it doesn't disprove anything (I literally asked to verify this), I specifically chose to say it was irrelevant because the larger point was "you can touch and understand the Root", which the majority of your quotes didn't even begin to imply
 
This is it being impossible to touch and exist. If you touch it and you're returned back into the source of all things where everything and nothing exists at once, you have in fact, stopped existing.
You're reading something into the text that isn't there, which is contradicted by other information we're given. Someone went there and came back. Shiki floated there for years.

"you can touch and understand the Root", which the majority of your quotes didn't even begin to imply
Far from imply, it says it directly:
To see, touch, and understand it makes even the impossible possible. (How true magic is created)​
There's just one last thing to ask. What was it like touching the Root?"
Revealing one's knowledge or impressions of the Root was strictly forbidden.

The stuff from FSN wasn't irrelevant, they were their own points all their own that were very significant. The Greater Grail punches a hole directly to the Root like an unused mana piñata.
 
You're reading something into the text that isn't there, which is contradicted by other information we're given. Someone went there and came back. Shiki floated there for years.
Shiki did not float there, she was in a hospital bed in a coma because she got hit by a truck, come on now be serious.

I'm not reading into something that's contradicted by other information, I'm reading the text, looking at them themselves saying what you're claiming is impossible, and saying its presented as nothing but a theory and also impossible, as we know what touching the Root does, from Aoko's own mouth. If you refuse to read the text, there's not much that can be done there, but don't say someone is reading into something that isn't there, when they're quoting the text to you each time and just explaining what that means, with information you already have.
Far from imply, it says it directly:
To see, touch, and understand it makes even the impossible possible. (How true magic is created)​
Not literally touching it, as this line comes from Aoko, who says that's impossible. In fact we see Aoko gaining the true magic, and she notably doesn't touch the root at all during chapter 12, meaning we know for a fact that touching and understanding the Root does not give you true magic, because you would not exist. As she says in chapter 13, you return to the source. We know what the Root is, and what it is means being returned to it means you stop existing, there's no two ways about it.
There's just one last thing to ask. What was it like touching the Root?"
She did not literally touch it, again, we see it in game, but even better, Aoko herself says she turned and ran before touching it. They're very clearly not using the word touch literally because again, Aoko tells us what happens if you actually touch it, very clearly, and she very much did not have her soul dissolved back into the source.

Revealing one's knowledge or impressions of the Root was strictly forbidden.

Yes, you are not allowed to reveal what you think or know about it. Having knowledge or thoughts on something, by the way, does not mean you understand it. I could tell you what I know or think about the origin of the universe, that doesn't mean I understand it.
 
Why is it that we only have 7 actual Japanese scans being used in this Tier 0 thread so far?
 
Last edited:
Shiki did not float there, she was in a hospital bed in a coma because she got hit by a truck, come on now be serious.
During which her soul literally went to the Root. There was a whole section dedicated to describing that experience. They even animated it. You saying "nah it didn't happen, come on" is just about the least persuasive retort I could imagine.

This place is dark, and the floor is pitch black.
When I realized that the only thing around me was the darkness, I accepted the fact that I was dead.
I'm floating in a sea with no light or sound. Naked, without anything to cover her, the human being called Ryougi Shiki is sinking into the depths.
There's no light here. No, I suspect I never fell in the first place.
Since there's nothing here.
It's not just that there's no light, there isn't even any darkness. Since there is nothing here nothing is visible. There is no meaning to the concept of falling.
Inside the 「  」within which even form is meaningless, just my body keeps sinking. The naked me, I'm a poisonous shade which makes me want to turn my eyes away. Because everything 「here」 bears such a poisonous aura.
"--- This is death."
Even the sound of my muttering seems like a dream.

Then, I observe something like "time". Time has no meaning inside「  」, but I become able to observe it.
As naturally as flowing water, as grossly as putrefaction, I am just marking time.
There is nothing here.
Even if I keep continuously looking in the distance, I can't see anything.
Even if I keep waiting continuously for something, I can't see anything.
It's very nice and peaceful.
No --- Since nothing has meaning, just 「being」here makes everything perfect.
This is death.
The world which only the dead can reach. The world which the living cannot see.
But, I'm still alive ---.
I thought I would lose my mind.

For two years I sat there in the midst of the concept called "death". Rather then observation, it was closer to the struggle of battle.
d57aSj1.png


As she says in chapter 13, you return to the source. We know what the Root is, and what it is means being returned to it means you stop existing, there's no two ways about it.
You can keep saying "touching it makes you stop existing" but it won't magically insert that phrase into the source material. Nothing says that. All we know is that you get pulled into it and the idea is that you become a god and can't come back, except for one person who did come back. You say this person didn't actually make it there, but that contradicts the text again.

Even when Araya was preparing to make contact with the Root, both him and Touko postulated that he may or may not retain his sense of self.
Touko shook her head, an act of pity rather than denial.
"I can't deny it. At this stage the Counter Force isn't going to move. You might actually succeed this time.
Further, I have no idea what will happen if someone such as yourself, who hates mankind so deeply, touches the Root. If it were a normal magus, he'd move on to that other world and forget all about ours, without a doubt. But you, you're different. Even if you touch the Root, some shade of yourself will almost certainly remain on this side. This entire country might even be annihilated as a result. Because, if somebody like you that hates humans seriously intends to save humans, the only possible result is the ultimate end of all suffering: death.
Farewell, Aozaki. There is no certainty that I will remain myself after touching the Root. I will believe that there is meaning in the fact that the last person to stand in my way was you."
 
You can keep saying "touching it makes you stop existing" but it won't magically insert that phrase into the source material. Nothing says that. All we know is that you get pulled into it and the idea is that you become a god and can't come back, except for one person who did come back. You say this person didn't actually make it there, but that contradicts the text again.
So, to summarize the situation as I reckon it:

"Coming in contact with it means instant death. The soul of a mere human simply 'returns to the source', so to speak. In other words, it gets sucked into the Root."

""But you said there were no survivors..."
"Yeah, because everyone who's gone in turns into God, too.
"

"To see, touch and understand it makes even the impossible possible. It has gone by many names over the years, but you can say it's where God lives."

So, contact with the Root is explicitly "a return to the source."

Now, "Return" is the keyword here. Obviously, you can't "return" to a place you were never in. So, for contact with the Root to be described as a "return," the contactee must have been, in some sense, present in it before. You seem to be interpreting the contact in question as the Root being just an actual void-place where, after connection is made, you just stay there, literally floating, as some divine being. This scenario is pretty strange; was everyone just floating inside the Root as "a god" at some point? Were they teleported out, at some other point?

This is obviously a pretty scuffed reading of the text when you look at this:

"—The swirl of the Root is a "place" where all causalities interlace, where all things are in potential, and therefore where nothing is whatsoever. That is my true shape. Though I am merely bound to it, I am nonetheless a part of it. And the part and the whole of a nothingness are the same, wouldn't you say?."

So, the Root is "where all things are in potential" and "where all causalities interface." I.e. It's the potentiality of all things before they exist. Everything pre-exists there "prior" to the world being actually generated. More: As the above quote says, in the Root, part and whole are the same, which indicates it is indivisible as well.

Here, this is also described in similar terms. In terms of "flowing out" of the Root, and of (being incapable of) "returning" to it. The return is mentioned directly after this outflow and contrasts it in the text, so, obviously, the return is just the return to the state prior to the outflow.

The above dialogue also describes the event of contacting the Root as "instant death." The exact kanji used being "消滅," which does indeed mean something in that general context. It means termination, annihilation, extinction, etc etc.

So, given that, "return to the Root" very obviously just means returning to being a potentiality existing in the Root, which is the fount of everything and where all things are before they exist. But as already noted: In the Root, part and whole are the same, and so things don't pre-exist in the Root as actual subsisting "gods" that live there. They pre-exist in the Root as the Root itself.

So, yeah, context alone affirms what Paul and others have said here, from what I can gather. Everything else seems to be just inability to interpret a text and go beyond the plain meaning of phrases (And sometimes even of grasping the plain meaning, too), sorry.

Since "Contact with the Root = Reunification with the Root" is just indubitably correct, then likewise, the reading of the text has to be shaped by that, since it is what the work establishes. Your current argument seems to hinge entirely on the idea of the Root as this actual void-place where you can just float around, but the text seems to extensively contradict that.

Even Shiki being "in the Root" is something that's not problematic whatsoever, even. Firstly, because taking the text entirely plainly just results in the Root being spatial, which even you deny. So you are already a few steps removed from the plain meaning of the words used even in your interpretation (Nevermind the fact that the text itself says the terms applied are "meaningless" and whatnot). Secondly:

1) To "make contact" with the Root is to reunify with the Root.

2) When she was "in the Root," Shiki evidently did not reunify with it.

∴ Shiki did not make contact with the Root. At least, not in the sense in which your argument requires to work.

The argument also presupposes that "to be in the Root" as Shiki was is the same as "To make contact with it," which doesn't appear to be a given. But I'll let the actual supporters cash that out.

And even under another angle your argument seems bizarre, too, seeing as the text plainly depicts Shiki's experience as a kind struggle between life and death:

And yet, it was all so calm and serene. It feels as if, in this place without meaning, the fact that I existed at all fits me. Here lay entropy, the end of all things, a place the living may never observe, but only the dead may enter. I died. And yet I am still alive. I felt my mind about to lose its grip. Two years. An instant, stretched out to an eternity. Both are accurate measures of my time spent in this “ ”. Here, I touched death. Here, I fought for my life. Here, I awakened."

"Here, I touched death." Here, I fought for my life." "I felt my mind about to lose its grip." "I died. And yet I am still alive." Which fits with how, as said prior, true contact with the Root means annihilation.

Even when Araya was preparing to make contact with the Root, both him and Touko postulated that he may or may not retain his sense of self.
The quotes you've given have the characters say "Even if you touch the Root, some shade of yourself will almost certainly remain on this side.." "Remain on this side." That seems to be what retaining a sense of self refers to.
 
Everything else seems to be just inability to interpret a text and go beyond the plain meaning
I don't accept that at all. We are distorting the original text to paint over self-evident contradictions. All counter evidence against the idea of the root being a monad is being handwaved under the pretext that things can't be true as written because then it wouldn't be a monad. That's totally backwards, we shouldn't use that kind of circular reasoning, we should look at the entire body of evidence instead of working backwards from a conclusion.

You don't need to pre-exist in the root for the word "return" to apply since it's described as the origin. Everything started there. Nonetheless, it's simply a fact that you can interact with it, and even be there, without being subsumed by the alleged oneness of the root. The very quote being used to say part and whole are the same is the same person saying they were there, in it, for years.

Since "Contact with the Root = Reunification with the Root" is just indubitably correct
You're picking and choosing which statements you want to take seriously and which ones you don't. It just so happens that you pick the ones you feel contribute to it being a monad and discard the ones that don't, claiming they must mean something other than what they plainly mean because you've decided from the outset that the Root must be a monad.

Yet nothing says you "reunify." You've read that into a text that merely says you are "sucked into it." This is in the same section where it's said that people who go there become gods and that the first person to do this mightve been lonely and wanted more people to come be gods alongside them

Yet, that part must be ignored because then it can't be a monad. So we simultaneously credit Aoko when she says things that help it be a monad and moments later when several descriptions are given that contradict that we spontaneously decide gee. None of that must be true, or it must be a metaphor of some kind. After all, it's a monad. We know based on the statements from the same person we are currently disregarding.

The quotes you've given have the characters say "Even if you touch the Root, some shade of yourself will almost certainly remain on this side.." "Remain on this side." That seems to be what retaining a sense of self refers to.
And yet this is in stark contradiction with the theory that the OP has come up with that touching the root causes you to be instantly subsumed into perfect undifferentiated root-ness. As was Shiki's experience there.

A process which, lest we forget, involves crossing the barrier between the universe and the root, which -- with a holy Grail-- gives you access to large amounts of unused mana that are inside the root.

What is the source of these scans?
 
I honestly doubt anyone here can change Deagon's mind as it seems he's not arguing in good faith. We should honestly just let him stick to his opinion and let other staff members comment before it gets too clogged to read through. The thread is getting too long already imo.

And please don't delete this comment Deagon. We have to let other staff members read and comment as well.
 
Let us determine an agreeable english translation of the following:

触れれば即消滅。人間程度の魂だと触れた瞬間に元・に・戻・る・とか、根源に取りこまれるとか」

「でも生還者はいないって」
「だから。そういう人たちは、中で神さまにでもなっちゃったんじゃない?」

そこを見て、触れて、理解できれば不可能なんて言葉すら作り替えられる。伝承によって呼び名は様々だけど、ようするに神さまのいる位置なんでしょうね」
 
You don't need to pre-exist in the root for the word "return" to apply since it's described as the origin. Everything started there. Nonetheless, it's simply a fact that you can interact with it, and even be there, without being subsumed by the alleged oneness of the root. The very quote being used to say part and whole are the same is the same person saying they were there, in it, for years.
How can you return to "somewhere" you were never in? Explain that to me. Explain, also, the fact that contact with the Root is pretty plainly described as annihilation. You ignored all of that and just went back to restating already-addressed things

You're picking and choosing which statements you want to take seriously and which ones you don't. It just so happens that you pick the ones you feel contribute to it being a monad and discard the ones that don't, claiming they must mean something other than what they plainly mean because you've decided from the outset that the Root must be a monad.

Yet nothing says you "reunify." You've read that into a text that merely says you are "sucked into it." This is in the same section where it's said that people who go there become gods and that the first person to do this mightve been lonely and wanted more people to come be gods alongside them

Yet, that part must be ignored because then it can't be a monad. So we simultaneously credit Aoko when she says things that help it be a monad and moments later when several descriptions are given that contradict that we spontaneously decide gee. None of that must be true, or it must be a metaphor of some kind. After all, it's a monad. We know based on the statements from the same person we are currently disregarding.
The "The person who become God was lonely" tidbit is presented as the narrator recounting the thoughts of another person (Who, from what I can garner, is a much less knowledgeable character than the girl talking), not as actual fact. I don't think any of that girl's statements contradict each other at all.

Overall, nobody is dismissing certain statements in favor of others at all. The point of the above post is to show they're all pretty harmonious with each other. Also, doesn't matter one whit if "Oh, technically, they never use the exact word 'reunify'..." Reading is more than staring at words.

And yet this is in stark contradiction with the theory that the OP has come up with that touching the root causes you to be instantly subsumed into perfect undifferentiated root-ness. As was Shiki's experience there.

A process which, lest we forget, involves crossing the barrier between the universe and the root, which -- with a holy Grail-- gives you access to large amounts of unused mana that are inside the root.
I don't know why you treat the Root being supposed to be a monad as a "theory." It is pretty blatantly described in such terms. Of course we are going to take Piece of Information A and harmonize it with Piece of Information B if B does not inherently contradict with A whatsoever.

What you posted isn't in contradictory with the """theory,""" also. If you dissolve into unity but some "shade" of you remains behind, in the non-unity, then... that's that.

I honestly doubt anyone here can change Deagon's mind as it seems he's not arguing in good faith. We should honestly just let him stick to his opinion and let other staff members comment before it gets too clogged to read through. The thread is getting too long already imo.

And please don't delete this comment Deagon. We have to let other staff members read and comment as well.
The discussion is young, so whether it continues or we stop it here is all one to me. If it starts actually getting needlessly long, then I can see a need to cut it off.
 
As a small aside, that scan doesn't say "emanation." It says true magic is "directly connected" and contrasts that against magecraft is "derived from" the root.
You read the op, if you did then you already know why I said, "directly emanates from it", because everything flows from it magecraft happens to be a mediate emanation and true magic directly derives from the Swirl of the root hence it's an immediate emanation.

That aside, I don't understand why Tier 0 is being analyzed like it's as well defined as something from mathematics, it's rooted in mysticism which always has a lot of nuance to it, mysticism tends to use different manifestations of the same ultimate reality to explain certain information that can be known about the ultimate reality, just as the Akashic Records can be known, without necessarily denouncing the fact that it's fullness in essence is still fundamentally unknowable, the Akashic records are a part of the Swirl of the root, not the other way around so the Swirl of the root ought to be more fundamental than them.

It's a running theme in the world that nobody knows what the Swirl of the root is, even in the statements people try to use to contradict it the people who speak in the dialogues immediately reduce their statements to just being mere theories and rumors spread around by it. I think it should be fair to analyze statements depending on the logical consistency behind the statements themselves.

For example, Aoko says to touch it and understand it redefines the word "impossible" and proceeds to outline how nobody knows what happens to those who touch and even the hypothesis that it is where "God is" is something that has little to no proof. As for the Touko message for Araya, she says "he or may not retain his sense of self", the fact that she says "may" immediately outlines how even she doesn't know and it's just another hypothesis about the Swirl of the root, heck she's the same person who describe the Swirl of the root as "ultimate knowledge" or "perfect knowledge"
And immediately says because intellectual wisdom creates a standard like "perfect" or "ultimate" knowledge, it can't be said to be the Swirl of the root and describes what it is not rather than what it is as it implies the fact that the Swirl of the root would be reduced to being finite. Touko's explanation here aligns perfectly with Saber Ryougi (who's said to be omniscient btw even in fgo) saying the place doesn't have boundaries.

閉ざされた空間、マンションの壁と壁の間にもうけた異界の中で目を覚ました彼女は、その腕でありえない空間 の、ありえない壁を斬ったのだ。

 無限は、「 」ではない。無限を無限たらしめるには有限を定めなくてはいけないのだ。有限がなければ無限 など存在しない。物事には果てがあるから、無限という事柄が観測される。両儀式は放りこまれた無限の中で、 ありえない有限を視つけだして断ち切った。

 だが無論、無限の中には有限などない。存在しないものは斬れないが故に、あの檻は脱出が不可能なのである 。  しかし――有限がなければ、無限はないのだ。有限の壁が無かったにせよ有ったにせよ、両儀式の前にはそん な果てのない世界など意味をなさない。

 有限が本当になければ、それは無限などではなく「 」であり。有限を内包しているのなら、式はそれを視つ けだして断ち切ってしまう。

 ……絶対の筈の黒い穴は、この相手にだけはただの狭い暗室にすぎなかったのだと、魔術師は

Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it.

Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible.

However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki.

If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Rougi would find it and cut away everything.

…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself.
Which in turns aligns with how Kara no Kyoukai describes the distinction between Spurious infinity and something that has no limits which has already been covered in the OP. The Swirl of the root, is treated as a place "without end" and "without limits" that which can create "anything" as a result, it isn't just being beyond the material, it is just free from restrictions, where even definitions limit and make it finite, as Spurious infinity is defined by limits as explained by the OP, it is limited by its own definition that distinguishes it from being finite.
According to the Dharma, vacuum is the state of freedom.
There is no duality of opposites,
The mind that sees the reason of the world and the way the world is as it is.

The sky is far away and the colors are pale.
Your shadow stands on the boundary of nowhere,
and watches the stars.

  The sky is far away, and the colors are pale.

The love is a temporary dream.
That dream is an eternal remnant.
The meeting that could never be, but was lit for a short time,
I am still looking at it.

Like looking at a faraway empty sky on a snowy night.
法に曰く、真空とは自在の境地。
二元対立の分別はなく、
世の理、世の在り方をありのままに観ずる心。

空は遠く、色彩は淡く。
貴影は何処ともつかぬ境界に立ち、
星の行方を眺めている。

  ◆

その恋は一時の夢。
その夢は永遠の名残。
有り得る筈のない、けれど束の間に灯った出会いを、
私は今も眺めている。

雪の夜、遙かな虚空を見るように。

NA Localization: As stated by law, emptiness is a territory of freedom.
Free from binary opposition, it is the heart that contemplates the world both as it should be and as it is.

The sky is distant, the colors pale.
A noble figure stands on an uncertain boundary, gazing at the whereabouts of the stars.
Whilst True Emptiness is a radical state of freedom, where dual distinctions like "infinity and finitude" are dissolved into a unity that is "without end", this is why the mystic eyes can cut through everything, because limits exist in everything including infinity. Ryougi Shiki has never physically touched the Swirl of the root whatsoever, she was still in a hospital bed, I'd be okay with saying her consciousness experienced it. But funny enough the only person who experienced the Swirl of the root, describes her experience in the most non informative way possible.
She says "it's dark" but immediately realizes how that description is inadequate and says "there's neither light nor darkness", she then says she was floating and falling within it but realizes even that description is inadequate as she says "I can't see anything, because there's nothing" and immediately says "it doesn't make sense to fall", after saying it's nothing she says "there's probably no such thing as nothing" and says "my body is sinking in a world where even such a description is meaningless".

This aligns with Reines saying it is not zero, because even zero has baggage, but it's 'no-thing', an unfathomable force where points of references cease to be, which aligns with the special pamphlet saying "it was the Spiral of Origin, however since the spiral of origin can be called itself, it was no longer Emptiness"

Funny enough even that aligns with Arcueid one of the most knowledgeable people in the verse describing it by what it's not and explaining how it's not reducible to anything but just its existence, she makes it clear that at the Swirl of the root there is an 'archive of all things', but it's less of an 'archive' and more of just an 'existence' not information but just 'existence', she says it has no will into itself and no possible directive it simply let's causes flow out of itself.

All attributes about it such as being the information or the akashic records are identical to its existence and its existence is not reducible to anything but itself, it cannot be regarded as anything but itself, pretty implicative of the Swirl of the root being fundamentally simple and not reducible to anything but itself, Arcueid continues to speak about how everything else has fallen so far into multiplicity and hence cannot reach the Swirl of the root, which is obviously absolutely simple.

Which aligns with the FGO describing it as a place free from binary restrictions and it being the source of Taiji, the one which produces Polarity which is Yin-Yang, her soul returning to the root is insignificant, all things come from and return back to the ultimate reality; her soul/origin is Emptiness already it's fine for it to experience nothing because it is nothing.
So, this is supposed to be Kara no Kyoukai, but is this the 1998 Web Novel or the 2004 Published Book?
Does it really matter? Deagon was the one who initially used a fan translation with terrible reputation, the raws for statement in question have already been sent here.
For the sake of organization, is it agreeable for a blog to be made with all the raw scans and their sources for our purview.
I'm confused....I was told that if I have an issue with translations, I should provide a better translation but now it's this, is this a general rule or has it just been implemented now?
Although, there is this scan, already posted before, which seems to spell out in even clearer terms that a return to the Root is a return to nothingness. So now I'm not sure why this particular aspect is even being discussed at such length, honestly. If someone can provide a source for this, then all the better.
Kara No Kyoukai Paradox Spiral, I can probably find the raw scans for this.
 
Does it really matter? Deagon was the one who initially used a fan translation with terrible reputation, the raws for statement in question have already been sent here.

I'm confused....I was told that if I have an issue with translations, I should provide a better translation but now it's this, is this a general rule or has it just been implemented now?
For archival and reference purposes, yes. Can you repost the raw statement link?

As mentioned in my earlier post, I am organizing all the presented raw scans for archival and reference purposes.
 
Here's the oblivion records one, this is the one ultima was looking for.

It still says the same thing, humans reaching the root return to nothing, become complete and the meaning of life vanishes and additionally it explains how humans have become too complex or fell into multiplicity and Ergo can't return back to the original source (presumably to reach it multiplicity should cease to be within you, just as I said beforehand).

If I can't find the garden of Avalon raw, I'll just send a different statement (that has raws or is an official translation) implying the same thing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top