Assassination Classroom verse-wide revisions

[Knowzn]

Well, this should probably be fine to apply, if Vietthai has no objections regarding it.

Not sure, he didn't say anything about those.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm neutral with Ap/Dura rating, but again i will voice my opinion on this, as we known the whole slimy tenctacles thing are very hard to measure exact rating so i propose Possibly/Likely Rating rather than a solid rating, for example: Unknown Possibly/Likely 8-C (Took hit from God of Death....)

About speed i'm not sure but some other member did argue against it and they did have a good reason as we don't know Koro using this pure speed or experience to counter, so i propose Possibly/Likely High Hypersonic (react and keeping up to God of Death who move at March 40)

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I do not have enough free time to keep up with all of the posts here.

Has anything new been decided here?

Would fear manipulation not be warranted due to the characters being able to induce fear even in far stronger fighters who have no logical reason to be scared of them? For example, Korosensei being scared of Nagisa's mother and Karasuma being so terrified of Nagisa that he automatically defended at full force and almost hurt him, during Nagisa's literal first time using bloodlust.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

.

Aura will be removed from everyone instead they will get fear inducement, empathic manipulation and illusion creation. If causing hallucinations qualifies as perception manipulation that too.
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Additionally, Perception Manip comes from the Reaper's ability to obscure himself with his bloodlust and gain his pseudo-invisibility that he uses against the class and Karasuma

 

[Antvasima]

Would fear manipulation not be warranted due to the characters being able to induce fear even in far stronger fighters who have no logical reason to be scared of them? For example, Korosensei being scared of Nagisa's mother and Karasuma being so terrified of Nagisa that he automatically defended at full force and almost hurt him, during Nagisa's literal first time using bloodlust.

I am not sure. It may be a borderline case.

 

[Antvasima]

Additionally, Perception Manip comes from the Reaper's ability to obscure himself with his bloodlust and gain his pseudo-invisibility that he uses against the class and Karasuma

That seems more reliable then.

 

[Vietthai96]

That seems more reliable then.

Actually to my understanding he doesn't truly manip the perception of the other, he just using his bloodlust to obscure himself, it is just like you bending the light to mess with you image which resulting in messing other perceptive regarding to your appearance.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. What do the rest of you think?

 

[Knowzn]

Actually to my understanding he doesn't truly manip the perception of the other, he just using his bloodlust to obscure himself, it is just like you bending the light to mess with you image which resulting in messing other perceptive regarding to your appearance.

Hmm. What do the rest of you think?

While there wasn't any explanation on how does that assassination skill works, it is a logical assumption that he was doing it with his bloodlust, obscuring himself with bloodlust wasn't what he was doing regardless of this tough, his obscure bloodlust still looks just like any other characters bloodlust in the series, he was manipulating his atmosphere, making himself nigh-insivible to class 3-E students, even when they tried to attack him they just went throught his body, only reason Karasuma was capable of fighting against him is his nose, perception, or sense for bloodlust was quite high. That was why I proposed limited perception manip. If there is something better suited for it, we can give him that instead.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Actually to my understanding he doesn't truly manip the perception of the other, he just using his bloodlust to obscure himself, it is just like you bending the light to mess with you image which resulting in messing other perceptive regarding to your appearance.

I think that would still count as perception manip. He's essentially creating a mirage.

And I would argue that this series has some of the most blatant evidence of actual fear manip I've seen.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks for the explanation. Limited perception manipulation is probably fine then.

 

[Vietthai96]

Hmm. What do the rest of you think?

Kind of late and need to sleep but i will response shortly for you:
Aside from what i object in all of my post above with the whole premise of fear manip, percept manip, etc.....and AP/Dura/Speed rating i already gave my opinion i'm fine with the rest except some of thing as follow:
Irina intellect like i said before should be Gifted, likely Higher
Gakuho intellect should be Atleast Genius, likely Extraordinary Genius

While there wasn't any explanation on how does that assassination skill works, it is a logical assumption that he was doing it with his bloodlust, obscuring himself with bloodlust wasn't what he was doing regardless of this tough, his obscure bloodlust still looks just like any other characters bloodlust in the series, he was manipulating his atmosphere, making himself nigh-insivible to class 3-E students, even when they tried to attack him they just went throught his body, only reason Karasuma was capable of fighting against him is his nose, perception, or sense for bloodlust was quite high. That was why I proposed limited perception manip. If there is something better suited for it, we can give him that instead.

I know about his bloodlust, but making you invisible is just invisiblity, not perception manip, let alone nigh-invisible. His obscuring himself by create intense amount of bloodlust to distort his own image it is similar to when you using fog to obscuring yourself but it is not perception manip, perception manip is when you don't obscuring yourself, but using your power to directly messing the perception of your enemy to make them see something entirely different than what really is

I think that would still count as perception manip. He's essentially creating a mirage.

Where is that come from???

And I would argue that this series has some of the most blatant evidence of actual fear manip I've seen.

I alreadly explained many, unless you have something new, please don't recreate circular argument

Need to sleep though, i will reply way later, sorry for the inconvenience though

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I alreadly explained many, unless you have something new, please don't recreate circular argument

Alright, I'll look back over your other post later to make sure I don't go in circles

I know about his bloodlust, but making you invisible is just invisiblity, not perception manip, let alone nigh-invisible. His obscuring himself by create intense amount of bloodlust to distort his own image it is similar to when you using fog to obscuring yourself but it is not perception manip, perception manip is when you don't obscuring yourself, but using your power to directly messing the perception of your enemy to make them see something entirely different than what really is

Fair enough

 

[Knowzn]

Kind of late and need to sleep but i will response shortly for you:
Aside from what i object in all of my post above with the whole premise of fear manip, percept manip, etc.....and AP/Dura/Speed rating i already gave my opinion i'm fine with the rest except some of thing as follow:
Irina intellect like i said before should be Gifted, likely Higher
Gakuho intellect should be Atleast Genius, likely Extraordinary Genius

Fair with these, thank you for input.

I know about his bloodlust, but making you invisible is just invisiblity, not perception manip, let alone nigh-invisible. His obscuring himself by create intense amount of bloodlust to distort his own image it is similar to when you using fog to obscuring yourself but it is not perception manip, perception manip is when you don't obscuring yourself, but using your power to directly messing the perception of your enemy to make them see something entirely different than what really is

I mean you are proposing invisibity then? I am fine with that, but again creating intense amount of bloodlust wasn't what he did, in the same page he does that explains what is doing is manipulating his atmoshpere, yes, he didn't do that with perception manip to manipulate other perception that's why its only limited perception manipulation. Anyways, I am fine with giving him invisibilty if that's what you're proposing.

Need to sleep though, i will reply way later, sorry for the inconvenience though

No need to worry, I also was busy these days ended up responding late, I also apologize about that.

 

[Antvasima]

Vietthai seems to make sense to me. So is "Limited Invisibility" better then?

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Yes, though we should hold off on closing this thread until the fear manipulation issue is dealt with. I can comment more properly in a few hours

 

[Axxtentacle]

The invisibility thing is fine.

I'm 100% in support of Fear Manipulation via Bloodlust (killing intent). It has extreme effects and works on people who are stronger & people that wouldn't be able to sense conventional power.

Nagisa legit makes the guy (don't remember his name) panic to the point of foaming at the mouth with how much it's making him freak.

It's virtually the same reason Kakashi and Zabuza have fear manipulation. Their killing intent/bloodlust caused Sasuke to shake profusely, sweat, and even think about killing himself.

 

[Knowzn]

So is "Limited Invisibility" better then?

Yeah, I guess thats what he is proposing, I am fine with that.

 

[deonment]

I honestly think fear manip is justified, particularly due to what Nagisa did with his bloodlust with him making Takaoka a person who works for the ministry of defense start foaming at the mouth, and also he had peed himself if I remember right

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that the fear inducement might work in a supernatural enough manner to qualify then.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Okay. I suppose that the fear inducement might work in a supernatural enough manner to qualify then.

Alright, though just for completeness' sake I'll list my reasoning. I think bloodlust in the series fulfills three of the requirements I'm aware of for genuine fear manip.

1. It is shown to work on individuals far stronger than the user, in scenarios where they have nothing to genuinely fear.
Examples include Nagisa scaring Karasuma while sparring despite the latter being stronger in close quarters than the Reaper, who is stronger than Grip, who is stronger than Karma, who is stronger than Nagisa. Additionally, all of this while Nagisa is wielding a harmless fake knife, which Karasuma knows can't hurt him.
Another example of the above would be Nagisa's mother's bloodlust shaking Korosensei, and I don't think it needs to be said that she has zero chance of harming him in any capacity.

2. It works on individuals that are explicitly unable to analyze or sense threat levels.
Examples include Nagisa scaring Takaoka, who explicitly believed Nagisa was a harmless and pacifistic child even before Nagisa hid his intentions with his assassination smile.
I could be remembering this incorrectly but I also believe I recall Nagisa's bloodlust working on his mother who is an entirely normal individual who actually is noted to have less capacity for recognizing danger than the average person.

3. It causes massively overwhelming effects in victims beyond what is normal for someone being simply frightened.
Takoaka goes into a near-catatonic state, foaming at the mouth and soiling himself when struck by Nagisa's bloodlust, which also induced permanent mental trauma when exacerbated by the Principal's own manipulations (which may themselves have been enhanced by bloodlust, but that would just be speculation).
Karasuma reacts with a primal fight-or-flight response and nearly injures Nagisa in his frantic attempts to defend himself, despite being a cool-headed and highly-trained secret agent who normally would not harm a young boy in-character.

(On the same note, fellow knowledgeable members, would Karma and Karasuma also get resistance to bloodlust stuff for being able to later withstand Nagisa and the Reaper's bloodlust, respectively?)

 

[Knowzn]

(On the same note, fellow knowledgeable members, would Karma and Karasuma also get resistance to bloodlust stuff for being able to later withstand Nagisa and the Reaper's bloodlust, respectively?)

No? Karasuma didn't withstand anything, him seeing invisible GoD is enhanced senses, Karma also didn't withstand anything if i recall correctly.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

No? Karasuma didn't withstand anything, him seeing invisible GoD is enhanced senses, Karma also didn't withstand anything if i recall correctly

I was about to counter that but I was remembering wrong. I do think it can be intuited that he'd resist it if it happened but that's also just speculation on my part.

As for Karma, he had his moment when Nagisa got his eye-glow while they were arguing during the civil war, which throughout the series has been the universal indicator of his bloodlust, and Karma's dialogue implied that he was indeed feeling it, and he just responded with his own eye-glow and wasn't scared.

 

[Knowzn]

As for Karma, he had his moment when Nagisa got his eye-glow while they were arguing during the civil war, which throughout the series has been the universal indicator of his bloodlust, and Karma's dialogue implied that he was indeed feeling it, and he just responded with his own eye-glow and wasn't scared.

Wasn't that Nagisa practically telling him ''If you wanna do this you're gonna get hurt''? It wasn't heavy as his bloodlust against others in series, I don't think it warrants a resistance to it.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Fair enough, in that case no other objections

 

[Antvasima]

So have we finished with reaching a consensus here then?

 

[Knowzn]

So have we finished with reaching a consensus here then?

Yeah, I guess so, should we apply these then? Though, I feel like we should wait to see if Vietthai has anything to say before closing this.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Let's wait a bit for Vietthai before the accepted revisions are applied.

 

[Vietthai96]

Alright, though just for completeness' sake I'll list my reasoning. I think bloodlust in the series fulfills three of the requirements I'm aware of for genuine fear manip.

1. It is shown to work on individuals far stronger than the user, in scenarios where they have nothing to genuinely fear.
Examples include Nagisa scaring Karasuma while sparring despite the latter being stronger in close quarters than the Reaper, who is stronger than Grip, who is stronger than Karma, who is stronger than Nagisa. Additionally, all of this while Nagisa is wielding a harmless fake knife, which Karasuma knows can't hurt him.
Another example of the above would be Nagisa's mother's bloodlust shaking Korosensei, and I don't think it needs to be said that she has zero chance of harming him in any capacity.

2. It works on individuals that are explicitly unable to analyze or sense threat levels.
Examples include Nagisa scaring Takaoka, who explicitly believed Nagisa was a harmless and pacifistic child even before Nagisa hid his intentions with his assassination smile.
I could be remembering this incorrectly but I also believe I recall Nagisa's bloodlust working on his mother who is an entirely normal individual who actually is noted to have less capacity for recognizing danger than the average person.

3. It causes massively overwhelming effects in victims beyond what is normal for someone being simply frightened.
Takoaka goes into a near-catatonic state, foaming at the mouth and soiling himself when struck by Nagisa's bloodlust, which also induced permanent mental trauma when exacerbated by the Principal's own manipulations (which may themselves have been enhanced by bloodlust, but that would just be speculation).
Karasuma reacts with a primal fight-or-flight response and nearly injures Nagisa in his frantic attempts to defend himself, despite being a cool-headed and highly-trained secret agent who normally would not harm a young boy in-character.

(On the same note, fellow knowledgeable members, would Karma and Karasuma also get resistance to bloodlust stuff for being able to later withstand Nagisa and the Reaper's bloodlust, respectively?)

Actually no, most people Nagisa affect using his bloodlust is people who don't have bloodlust like Takaoka and his mother. Now with Takaoka, in the first battle he have with Nagisa, Nagisa is an entirely unknown element, he doesn't know what Nagisa capable of leading to underestimate, also he not fear by Nagisa own bloodlust but rather because he have a freaking knife next to his neck, bloodlust did play some part, but not total, the trauma part is already being told by Takaoka is because he lose to a freaking high school child despite being a highly trained soldier and he have been successful for a very long time (anyone can get trauma from this actually), the second battle when he have his defense up, Nagisa can't bloodlust him anymore. Next is, many character being unaffected by his bloodlust like Korosensei, God of Death who have better bloodlust, Karasuma is not actually that much effected, he like Takaoka, being surprised, he just expect himself to train a bunch of highschool student, but got surprised by how much bloodlust Nagisa exuded, he not expected that much in a bunch of student; and to verify Karasuma feat, despite intense bloodlust God of Death have, Karasuma is not even flinch cause he already prepare. About the glowing eyes part, it is not supernatural power in any sense, it is just a dramatic, exaggrated visual effect used in anime to make thing more interesting, etc....similar to flowery language used in novel to make the "scene" more dramatic. Like i still said before, unless they actually manipulating the fear in people emotional through supernatural mean, it is not qualify for the full-blown hax, other series like you mention like Bleach, Naruto, etc...they have fear manip through Aura and that Aura is supernatural Aura, that why those are qualified.

But again readed another round of the manga and watched the anime again (which take freaking long time of my free time), at best they qualify for Minor Fear Inducement and should be detailed as can induce fear through bloodlust, and other who resist the bloodlust will have Resistance to Minor Fear Inducement which should be detailed as resist the fear inducement effect of bloodlust

About the Invisibility part of God of Death, he not achieved it through supernatural power, but the feat is pretty impressive, so in order to justify his feat he should have Psuedo Nigh-Invisibility and should be detailed as Can obscure himself with his bloodlust, make him nigh-invisible as people can't properly see his appearance with only his bloodlust is visible.

Yeah, I guess so, should we apply these then? Though, I feel like we should wait to see if Vietthai has anything to say before closing this.

This act actually deserve a praise though, you patiently waiting for my input despite i argue against many of your point rather than rushing to apply change.

Other than this and what i already proposed in all of my past post, i'm fine with other additions, now i need to go to apply new DBH CRT though, thank for articipated

 

[Antvasima]

So "Limited Fear Manipulation" and "Near Invisibility" then?

 

[Vietthai96]

So "Limited Fear Manipulation" and "Near Invisibility" then?

Uhhhh, the wording Ant , they not manipulating fear in any sense, just inducing fear, that why it is Minor Fear Inducement, and it is Nigh-Invisibility, not Near

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then. That seems fine, although we use the word "limited", not "minor", for powers and abilities sections.

 

[Knowzn]

This act actually deserve a praise though, you patiently waiting for my input despite i argue against many of your point rather than rushing to apply change.

No problem. The fact that you respectfully defended your argument and bothered to help evalaute this crt is more than enough for me, disaagrements was bound happen anyways, I wouldn't want to end this before letting you say your piece.

So "Limited Fear Manipulation" and "Near Invisibility" then?

While I am perfectly fine with that, I can't just go ahead with it. I am obligated to wait for Creaturemaster971's opinion on this considering he also put great amount of time in to writing that long explanation.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Karasuma is not actually that much effected, he like Takaoka, being surprised, he just expect himself to train a bunch of highschool student, but got surprised by how much bloodlust Nagisa exuded, he not expected that much in a bunch of student.

That is true, however it doesn't discount the fact that he himself was shocked at the effect it had on him. It wasn't just a reaction of, "oh, I'm surprised he can exude that much killing intent" he was genuinely shocked by how much he suddenly felt like his life was in danger, despite not actually being in any danger whatsoever.

and to verify Karasuma feat, despite intense bloodlust God of Death have, Karasuma is not even flinch cause he already prepare.

Like Knowzn said, the Reaper (who once again should have his page renamed to that, as it's the official english translation of his title) wasn't exuding bloodlust in the same way as Nagisa, he was just using it to obscure himself.

Like i still said before, unless they actually manipulating the fear in people emotional through supernatural mean, it is not qualify for the full-blown hax, other series like you mention like Bleach, Naruto, etc...they have fear manip through Aura and that Aura is supernatural Aura, that why those are qualified.

I could potentially ask him to clarify but I was discussing with another user that he thinks Assassination Classroom fear manip should be accepted for the same reasons it was accepted for Kakashi, Zabuza, and Orochimaru, in terms of the effect it has on people.


Ultimately I'm gonna leave the decision to Knowzn since I still very much feel like it qualifies for fear manip, but your points are definitely also valid. At this point I think it comes down to interpretation.

 

[Knowzn]

Okay. No problem.

Ultimately I'm gonna leave the decision to Knowzn since I still very much feel like it qualifies for fear manip, but your points are definitely also valid. At this point I think it comes down to interpretation.

Antvasima, considering this bloodlust dosen't have any outright manipulation of fear but definitely is capable of inducing fear to others, can we just call it limited fear manipulation and be done with it? If so, I think this time it is safe to apply these both sides said their pieces.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, that seems fine to me.

 

[Knowzn]

Yes, that seems fine to me.

Okay, can we apply these then?

 

[Antvasima]

You can apply what has been accepted, yes.