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I know but didn't they say that Sanctuary itself was essentially a part of Ehit that was split off?
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Arifureta Shokugyou de Sekai Saikyou Discussion Thread 2
- Thread starter Celestial_Pegasus
- Start date
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I could see that being the case
EL_xWatcher1234x
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The authority come from the Tree, so every ability that come from it is considered an authority
The artifact created from the tree have some of It's authority, like Lutria's orb, the holy sword, Aiko's wand and possibly Shia's hammer
Even Aiko got stronger because she was using the authority (created by Hajime from the tree )
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Oh that's interesting, well Lutria is deity that control nature through her authority and create pseudo godlike beings like the Divine Spirits, so its definitely not a stretch to say her authorities are similar to the "Universal Laws" or Ancient Magics. I don't necessarily mean they are abstract but they are rules imposed by reality.
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Btw how do you guys feel about the various "speed of sound" statements in the Afterstories? Like I can rationalize in my head make explanations but its still a bit odd they refer to that level of speed so often.
Like I'm currently reading the Shea Brutal Hero Arc rn, and when the act like Shea needs Future Sight to dodge wind blades and lightning (kinda of like in V6). Or when she fights the Celestial Beings and she assesses them, saying that even if they got 10x faster they wouldn't be faster than sound.
Like there are numerous instances of this, I wouldn't actually mind since they do hold back a lot especially in Afterstories. But I would like some SoL stuff too to counterbalance. I don't mean calcs but blatantly statements or feats like the dodging light beams from Schnee Ice Caverns.
On a related note, do you think that Shea with her normal Body Strengthening she's maybe not FTL? That could explain somethings if that's the case.
Like I'm currently reading the Shea Brutal Hero Arc rn, and when the act like Shea needs Future Sight to dodge wind blades and lightning (kinda of like in V6). Or when she fights the Celestial Beings and she assesses them, saying that even if they got 10x faster they wouldn't be faster than sound.
Like there are numerous instances of this, I wouldn't actually mind since they do hold back a lot especially in Afterstories. But I would like some SoL stuff too to counterbalance. I don't mean calcs but blatantly statements or feats like the dodging light beams from Schnee Ice Caverns.
On a related note, do you think that Shea with her normal Body Strengthening she's maybe not FTL? That could explain somethings if that's the case.
EL_xWatcher1234x
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It also make more sense cause the avatar are kind of stuck in their place so they need someone do their job (hero's summoning)
Me too but I think the author at least indicate that the attack reached the speed of sound or just a mistake, overall almost everyone is FTL by the afterstory.
Even normal animals can dodge bullets.
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The light novel has buffed the cast, Afterstories was written before.
Let me give an example, the whole lasers in Schnee Caverns in the WN, didn't even show the same properties as the LN, they didn't reflect off the ice for example.
The LN has various lightspeed statements and feats, which aren't present in the WN.
It's kinda obvious already, but author has made the cast a lot more powerful in the LN.
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Just got home so will take some time to rest before respond to the other messages but just to address quickly the speed of sound stuff.
The Shirakome kinda forget about other things that the cast have done before, like even putting that speed of sound thing besides there are various times where tier 9-8 feats are made seem as impressive when the cast is far beyond that level since long ago (both by calced feats and uncalced feats that obviously surpass that), and while somewhat frustrating is also a bit understable because he himself said dozen of times of write most of the after stories without thinking, and even go as far as ask the readers to forgive any contradiction and just oversee it with the thought 'Shirakome-sensei once again made a mistake...'
Another thing is also what Pegasus daid about the LN buffing a lot the characters (as show with all the revisions for the LN vols), to give examples regarding speed: In Zero were, the characters as far below Hajime team, top tiers have an explicit statement of move almost at SOL and in vol 6 there are like two different SOL statements from non-ancient magic users (so of people far below the seven Liberators); in vol 12 of the main story there is Apostle Eri (who is 70% as strong as an apostle) feat of dodging an attack from Shizuku, who was so far that wasn't even on her field of vision before the attack, in a nanosecond (light move 30cm in a nanosecond so considering that she likely moved various meters she did a FTL+ practically at the beginning of the fight). And there are more things that the LN add that further support how the cast is actually around those levels when Shirakome just don't forget the strength of the characters.
The Shirakome kinda forget about other things that the cast have done before, like even putting that speed of sound thing besides there are various times where tier 9-8 feats are made seem as impressive when the cast is far beyond that level since long ago (both by calced feats and uncalced feats that obviously surpass that), and while somewhat frustrating is also a bit understable because he himself said dozen of times of write most of the after stories without thinking, and even go as far as ask the readers to forgive any contradiction and just oversee it with the thought 'Shirakome-sensei once again made a mistake...'
Another thing is also what Pegasus daid about the LN buffing a lot the characters (as show with all the revisions for the LN vols), to give examples regarding speed: In Zero were, the characters as far below Hajime team, top tiers have an explicit statement of move almost at SOL and in vol 6 there are like two different SOL statements from non-ancient magic users (so of people far below the seven Liberators); in vol 12 of the main story there is Apostle Eri (who is 70% as strong as an apostle) feat of dodging an attack from Shizuku, who was so far that wasn't even on her field of vision before the attack, in a nanosecond (light move 30cm in a nanosecond so considering that she likely moved various meters she did a FTL+ practically at the beginning of the fight). And there are more things that the LN add that further support how the cast is actually around those levels when Shirakome just don't forget the strength of the characters.
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Yeah, I thought of that as another likely reason. There are speed of sound statements in LN too but definitely less frequent.
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Yeah, that makes sense.
I do recall the Eri feat and I agree the LN has been significantly buffing the WN. I haven't finished Zero so that is interesting.
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To be honest, the Eri feat would likely give higher results than the magma serpents calc (not only from Eri part but even more so for Shizuku since she likely moved an considerably greater distance than Eri in that nanosecond), the only reason of why I haven't calced it is just because without visuals there isn't enough information for the distance moved and any given distance would need to be to some degree speculative, so would be a bit hard to be officially accepted in a blog.
The Zero thing is what we use as the basis of the Zero characters speed scaling, well in first key because the second key of the seven main Liberators is scaled to the magma serpents of Gruen Labyrinth.
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Authorities is just a name for innate powers that some beings, specially gods, have, that doesn't mean is greater than ancient magic, at least not ancient magic with its true capability.
You miss the point that Urdia power was the manipulation of the planet souls, like in a global scale, and her power was specifically specialized in reincarnation, plus her strength and closeness to the other great spirits which let them replicate them, so her ability was just super suited for the specific task that Ehit group wanted to do, it don't mean that with spirit magic they would had be unable to do it by themselves though, is actually show that they could as there existed different God's Eyes through all the world that worked the same even without Urdia powering or controlling them (which is show in Zero vol 1).
Lutria didn't interfere with the Crystal Key per se, she created a barrier strong enough that they couldn't get inside it with the Crystal Key, which is super impressive considering the nature of the Crystal Key, but that is more a for Lutria itself than anything, a Lutria who btw should I add likely can also use concept magic based on how her sadness caused the same phenomenon as when Hajime created the Crystal Key.
Hell and Earth are specifically connected between them (more than the other worlds I mean), so the openning of a portal to Hell isn't that weird if it was done by a powerful being (at least assuming that based on how she lived more than a thousand years) in a place with a lot of energy. Also, the King Tree was dead at that point so quite literally is impossible that the witch used an authority of the tree.
Urdia couldn't be healed because she literally died so many thousand years in the past, even by Zero era, so the ammount of energy that would be needed to revive he, with both spirit and restoration magic since that is what is needed for actual resurrection btw, would be so absurd that not even the current Hajime would be able to affort it unless he use his perfected perpetual motion artifact. And if you mean restore the girls memories well, is obvious that he would be unable to do so with his artifacts since the memories were, literally speaking, in another place, also at that point he had spirit magic for like some weeks (2 weeks iirc) so he wasn't super good with it or anything to the point of match an artifact created by Ehit himself when he was fighting a war.
If your argument is that authorities are a thing only to tree brach avatars then the dragon wouldn't have one because he isn't an avatar, he is just a really special appartion based in the concept of "a being stronger than god" (or that is what I remember was said). And that would just be a potency thing.
I don't remember it was stated that the dragon resisted the control of thought element of the goddess of the Fairy World of that time, I just remember that it was stated that he was so absurdly strong that she needed to work together with another goddess to seal him on Earth.
I just don't know what you are even saying with the rest of stuff, you are just making some weird assumptions and strectching about things to trying to get some super duper power or something, while things are just much more simplier than what you try to argue.
The difference is that one is an innate power of beings of certain status (gods) that could be used from the moment they were born, and the other isn't a innate power that could be used from the get go (because not even Atavist with ancient magic had it as an innate ability that they could just use from the beginning, they needed to first awaken their magic, and then they need training to know how to use it). However both can do the same things, and even in a similar scale as long both sides are similarly strong.
It was a concept born from the madness/rage the dragon king felt when his loved one was killed by the poeple he tried to protect,, and the effect it had was to make someone stronger in exchange of their sanity (by filling the target with all the rage the dragon king felt and using it as fuel for power), additionally it was directly compared with Hajime concept.
The Sanctuary was a conceptual space (based in the events of Zero vol 6) that Ehit created (using massive amounts of energy that he absorbed from a prosperous country, that as result created the Great Desert). The all of Deny All Existence is in reference that anything touched by the concept get equally erased regardless of power difference, status, stats, etc. (the reason of why it worked with Alva despite Hajime being half dead), think of it like a switch were on=exist and off= doesn't exist, what the concept of Deny All Existence do against the thing it touch is turn said switch from on to off.
In the case of Ehit the concept turned the switch of his existence from on to off, however do to the sheer force of his will to live (let's remember he is also able to use concept magic btw) that part of him wasn't erased at all, hence the motive of why Hajime and Yue needed an even stronger concept to defeat him (with a concept that btw was also the perfect counter against Ehit considering all the bad things he did through all his life).
You don't get law manip for resisting heat or cold, you can get temperature resistance, which the characters already had, it was only added absolute zero resistance because Hajime didn't had the resistance before (at least not until now because revisions and such).
You are missing the whole point about how that was an artifact made by Hajime, and that the authority in this case referred to the ability to use the tree energy to sustain her spells (so she had a massive, practically infinite mana pool) and manipulate the natural unique energy of Earth (Will Power).
On the same level? Definitely, the characters (like Hajime and Yue for example) said several times that their powers are basically ancient magic, and they have demostrated with feats that they indeed manipulate said things in a similar scale to Hajime party at their tier 6 key and in some cases close to their tier 5 ones.
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Yeah I understood all that. I get that his willpower/emotions are comparable to people like Hajime and Yue or the Liberators because he can create concept magic. But what is the specific concept being made? Because if its not madness or directly relating to madness then I fail to see why resisting the side effects of the magic would constitute for conceptual resistance/manipulation.
I didn't know it was conceptual, but I did know about the desert. I get how Deny All Existence's EE works. I was just talking about despite its name it only effects what attacks in that particular moment.
For example, Hajime killing Alba with his chains didn't erase from a few minutes ago or thousands of years ago. It certainly didn't erase the memory of him from everyone. Which logically speaking if its conceptual erase it should do this unless there are specific principles in verse preventing it.
Ok I get that he has willpower that allows him to create concepts along with Sanctuary being a realm made from concept magic (I think that was what you were implying), on top of using the faith of the people of Tortus to elevate himself to godhood... I can see why he'd survive Deny All Existence.
But was it blatantly said that they a stronger concept? How do we know that it was inherently stronger? Because it finished off Ehit?
Alright gotcha. I've seen those statements yet but sounds about right.
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Is directly compared to Hajime Deny All Existence (which was formed from pure rage, a rage that turned people crazy btw), and the scale direct effect is to give people power in exchange of insanity (because is directly imbued with the emotions and will of the dragon king when he become crazy). We don't know the specifics of the dragon king, but we know that with his sheer rage he become crazy and gained immense power (enough to at least power up Tio to tier 6 with it), hence why the madness is directly correlated to the thing instead of be something like a side effect.
Not necessarily need to also affect the timeline of the universe in such a great way because that is more a range thing. Additionally, while possible that maybe could also hd happened if the concept also was created with restoration magic, it would be impractical because on top of absurdly increase the mana cost of each use (considering that the mana cost of concept magic is already insane) it was also unnecessary for Hajime because he just wanted to negate the worth of existence now that Yue wasn't there, before that things had worth at his eyes.
In this case the specific reason of why he survived Deny All Existence was because of his will of live instead of his power and status, those things helped with the other concept magics but no with that one.
The concept of return all the damage done was said various times (like 4 iirc?) to be a stronger concept, heck it was even saif that it was the strongest concept they had ever made.
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So then I assume that you'd be fine with the assertion that the madness is conceptual?
I know its a range thing. Thats what I was originally saying, it only effects its target regardless of the concept itself.
Alright
Gotcha I didn't recall
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Yes, because that, a madly rage, was the feeling the dragon king felt that become a concept.
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I see.
EL_xWatcher1234x
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Agree with that, I just misunderstood some stuff
anyway, have anyone read this?
anyway, have anyone read this?
Arifureta SS – Ia! Ia!
Noneless21
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I have
EL_xWatcher1234x
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what do you think about Cthulhu ?
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Noneless21
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It's just an apparition from the fairy world, nothing too special
And no, it doesn't mean it's the same Cthulhu from Cthulhu Mythos
EL_xWatcher1234x
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Of course It's not, just though it was interesting the author added him plus Myu's charisma and mental power
Noneless21
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The author already hinted Myuu's charisma when she gain the seven demon king friends back at the final arc, plus her mental power os already insane wjen she confront Hajime at his peak bloodlust
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Btw was clear that Hajime directed it toward her or not? In the LN at least it seemed like he never really directed any animosity toward his party or family. If he did then Myu should've died or at least gone insane from feeling that bloodlust and intimidation.
Noneless21
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while it was not directly aimed at her (obviously), his bloodlust should be potent enough to affect everyone in his surrounding, his encounter with Fried at the end of Schnee Snow Labyrinth tell us that
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I haven't really read any of the SS outside of LN. I'm finishing Shea Brutal Hero and then I'll have to double back and read Abyss Lord Ch1 and Ch2. I find everything else in the Afterstories pretty enjoyable and easy to read but I don't really care about Kondou like everyone else. His dilemma doesn't interest me and I feel like because his importance was shoehorned in at the latter half of the story, I don't have an attachment to him. Maybe I would if his relationships with Hajime and co. developed more naturally and fluidly like idk everyone else who consistently interacts with them.
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Well I ask because Hajime can control it and exclude people from feeling it.
Noneless21
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it's still pouring out to his surrounding, so yeah
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He held back with his loved ones in that part, as stated by them with the fact that he didn't used the chains to erase them and even gave various warnings to Myu, however that isn't to say that she didn't faced his bloodlust, is actually stated time and time again that she faced his bloodlust while everyone else was unable to move and that she is a brave hero from doing so. Myu, as his daughter, is just build different, is the reason of why she have various traits, like her great mental strength or her abnormally good markmanship, besides the special traits she herself also possess like her super charisma and magnetism for strong (and weird) beings, she is basically special.
In that point he explicitly was affecting everyone with his bloodlust, reason to why even the girls body were shivering, and when he faced Myu he used it to give her a warning to move.
EL_xWatcher1234x
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Without forgetting her ability to communicate with different entities that she had without artifact or special energy
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EL_xWatcher1234x
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knowing reincarnation exist
Does destroying souls count as immortality type 4 negation ?
Does destroying souls count as immortality type 4 negation ?
Noneless21
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No? That just one of the way to deal with immortality type 4 like how to kill someone with Low Godly regen you need to destroy their soul too
EL_xWatcher1234x
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I know Kouki is not a full apostle but shouldn't he have their resistance ?
if he is then Shizuki being able to bypass the apostle resistance to information analyzing count as a layer
if he is then Shizuki being able to bypass the apostle resistance to information analyzing count as a layer
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No because he didn't even had their disintegration (though his magic got to a close level) nor their other features like the wings, the only ability he shared with them was the infinite mana from Ehit and that was just because Ehit was giving him free access to his mana pool.
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Since Ehit with amps now is 6-A and Diablo (Light Novel) is in the 6-A strongest list, do you think Ehit would defeat him or not? Asking both of you @Celestial_Pegasus and @Community_Gamer since you know about Slime and are supporters or the verse.
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Noneless21
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that high godly sure looks very busted, and those EE too
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He resists conceptual EE via willpower.
High godly means nothing when Eht can just use Divine Edict, which Diablo can't resist.
Eht has shields made of multiple ancient magics, space jumping sword which ignores durability, danmaku spam, godspeed etc.
Again i continue to say it's not a fair match up, even ignoring layer arguments.
High godly means nothing when Eht can just use Divine Edict, which Diablo can't resist.
Eht has shields made of multiple ancient magics, space jumping sword which ignores durability, danmaku spam, godspeed etc.
Again i continue to say it's not a fair match up, even ignoring layer arguments.
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So there is no problem if I propose that him take his spot no?
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Go ahead, i don't really care either way.
Be prepared for more arguments about layers though, since people are already questioning it. I want no parts there, going to continue my work on Re Zero.
Be prepared for more arguments about layers though, since people are already questioning it. I want no parts there, going to continue my work on Re Zero.
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Ok.
