Arceus: The Jewel of Inconsistency

[Lavcore]

ok but is avatar dialga doing that within that specific time-space or throughout the multiverse? the distinction is important.

^

 

[Kepekley23]

ok but is avatar dialga doing that within that specific time-space or throughout the multiverse? the distinction is important.

That's something worth wondering, actually.

Assuming the avatars were Low 2-C, their true forms would be 2-B, except for Arceus (who would be Low 1-C)

 

[NeoZex6399]

I mean, in the same generation the pokédex says that Palkia stabilizes space with its breathing and that Palkia's total control over the boundaries of space allows it to travel to other dimensions.

"A legendary Pokémon of Sinnoh. It is said that space becomes more stable with Palkia's every breath."
"It is said to live in a gap in the spatial dimension parallel to ours. It appears in mythology."
"Its total control over the boundaries of space enable it to transport itself to faraway places or even other dimensions."

 

[Lavcore]

so does that mean that theres only one avatar palkia or that a pokeuniverse is much bigger than ours with different dimensions?

 

[Kepekley23]

That seems to confirm the idea that the avatars only stabilize time and space on universal scales, actually.

 

[Ionliosite]

So 2-C Avatars via scaling to Darkrai (with extremely casual Low 2-C feats as support) and 2-B True Forms, except Arceus, whose True Form would likely be Low 1-C.

 

[Lavcore]

Low 1-C true form arceus needs to be(preferably) discussed in a different thread first before we just say the OS is Low 1-C.

 

[NeoZex6399]

What I mean is that in the context of the pokédex, "space" means more than a single universe, since the boundaries of space encompass the other dimensions.

 

[Lavcore]

wouldn't that just support 2-C avatar CT and LT?

 

[Zeifyl]

I mean, it kinda did specify spatial dimension.

 

[Kepekley23]

I believe that's speaking of the incorporeal dimension form, not its physical state.

 

[Bowser-us]

Lake Trio has true forms, because they are the embodiment of knowledge, emotion and willpower? They just don't have nigh-omnipresent speed in their profiles

 

[Overlord775]

@Ioni

Wouldn't make sense, as Cyrus asked him to recreate Palkia and Dialga iirc, so it just making new avatars wouldn't make sense

@Kepekly

Nobody outside of Cyrus and the Shinno crew in the anime even met incorporeal Dilga and Palkia, so the pokedex referring to them would make no sense

also, it's cataloging their physical forms not the abtract versions

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I agree considering there's going to be (potentially) big pokémon revisions: the state of composite profiles, AP adjustments, the Pokémon verse being tier 1 etc... we should stick to the topic of this CRT.

Sorry if I contributed to any form derailment.

 

[Ionliosite]

The topic of this CRT has technically been resolved already: we're keeping the info from TJoL and adding Avatar keys for the Creation and Lake Trios. Avatars would be 2-C via scaling to Darkrai, True Froms would be 2-B via cosmology. The Original Spirit will have a different CRT to see if it counts as Low 1-C.

 

[Lavcore]

so this is what i think the changes should look like

Avatar Creation Trio: 2-C(scaling from darkrai)

Avatar Arceus: 2-C(vastly superior to the CT and the LT)

Darkrai: Rip 2-B darkrai(also the respect thread linked has been deleted)

Avatar Lake Trio: 2-C(scaling from the creation trio)

Primal Dialga: why does dialga not have a primal dialga key?

Cresselia: Rip 2-B cresselia

Unbound Hoopa: Rip 2-B Summoning

Cyrus: Rip 2-B Prep

 

[Bowser-us]

Does Lake trio in their true forms have nigh-omnipresence speed? Again, they don't have it now, unlike Creation trio

 

[Lavcore]

they are the embodiements of 3 core aspects of reality so they should have nigh-omnipresence.

 

[Lavcore]

oh my god all of darkrai's wins have to be deleted RIP

F

 

[Everything12]

Slightly unrelated, but should the Creation Trio and the Lake Guardians true forms have Abstract Existece Type 1 for being the abstract Space, Time, and Emotions, thus only being able to be harmed by Interacting with those abstracts?

 

[Ionliosite]

Primal Dialga: why does dialga not have a primal dialga key?

I agree we should add it, Grovyle (PMD Explorers) and Dusknoir (PMD Explorers) have info about it and how to scale it.

 

[Lavcore]

so dialga would have 3 keys then?

Avatars | True Form | Primal

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Um, didnt we literally have a thread about this before calling out the whole "Creation Trio's Avatars being weaker than their true selves" bullshit headcanon?

Because thats exactly why the CT ended up being 2-B all around. There's no evidence of their Avatars being weaker than their true forms.

 

[Ionliosite]

Except the avatars have no feats on the scale of their true forms?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

First of all, thats wrong. Palkia by itself is known to be the creator of parallel universes. A 2-B supporting feat.

Second, that doesnt mean they are lower than 2-B, or even at a weaker end of 2-B. It just means the CT have physical forms. This was explicitly addressed before and it was agreed that the idea is nothing but headcanon.

 

[Ionliosite]

Show Avatar Palkia being the creator of at least 1000 universes. We know True Palkia is the creator and embodiment of all space, so if Avatar Palkia has feats on those scale show them.

 

[Lavcore]

creation trio just got their AE removed RIP.

would they qualify for type 2 AE though?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

creation trio just got their AE removed RIP.
would they qualify for type 2 AE though?

yeah, why the **** did that happen, it doesn't look like there was a CRT on it

 

[Lavcore]

there was.

type 3 abstract existence got yeeted so the CT AE had to go.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

there was.
type 3 abstract existence got yeeted so the CT AE had to go.

Ah, so that's verse-wide. Yeah, that makes more sense.

 

[Lavcore]

i forsee the sheer amount of CRT's for AE to get added back to the CT.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I forsee great pain in the future

 

[Kepekley23]

They should have some form of Abstract Existence in their true forms, still. The idea that the very concepts of space and time aren't abstract is hilarious.

 

[Lavcore]

hmm i personally think the CT's true selves should have AE type 1 and the avatars don't have AE.

 

[Ionliosite]

The True Forms are abstracts, saying otherwise makes no sense. On the other hand, I'm unsure about the Avatars.

 

[Kepekley23]

The avatars are not, no, considering once they're destroyed, Arceus's own avatar needs to make them new bodies.

 

[Lavcore]

hmm now what about avatar arceus's AE? i read an interesting theory that the belt(ring? who cares) it wears allows it to interact with the world in a physical form, thoughts?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The avatars are not, no, considering once they're destroyed, Arceus's own avatar needs to make them new bodies.

Pretty sure another thread disputed this.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Wouldn't it be Type 2 since they're the embodiments of space and time

 

[Lavcore]

type 2 says you either have to regenerate indefintely or have resurrection the CT has neither.