Arceus: The Jewel of Inconsistency

[Lavcore]

i think we need a few sandboxes for how the profiles would look after the revisions and then see if the changes shown would be fine to add.

 

[Silentpixels]

bmp

 

[GyroNutz]

I'm talking about a Palkia avatar, so one individual Reflection Cave.
And also, they wouldn't have? A-1 would have its own Palkia avatar. A-2 would have its own Palkia avatar. So on and so forth. Every universe would have its own Palkia avatar, so either every Palkia avatar created its own universe, or you're suggesting that some unknown percentage of Palkia avatars are loafers and didn't do anything.

So Palkia's avatar creates universe A-1, with a reflection cave that contains universe A-2. Within that universe A-2, if it has its own Palkia, that means it would have been created by Palkia from universe A-1, which either leads to a countless hierarchy of Palkia avatars or it's false.

 

[Overlord775]

Pokemon to 1-B via Palkia Hierarchy when ? ovo

 

[Nemo212]

Well, no, hold on. That's hinging on the word "contain."

Wouldn't it be more likely that a single Reflection Cave just contains portals to other universes made by other Palkia avatars than an infinite number of sub-universes and Palkia avatars all the way down?

 

[Overlord775]

Palkia is called the "Creator of Parralel Dimensions" tho

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Are you implying this is a "Turtles all the way down" scenario?

 

[Nemo212]

If we're going the Palkias all the way down route, then I don't see why we wouldn't have upgrade Palkia to 2-A at the very least then. Either somebody disproves that or we get an upgrade.

@cal yeah

 

[GyroNutz]

I thought the parallel dimension Ash went to existed because of the Reflection Cave.

Also the number of universes there isn't infinite, so a hierarchy of countless Palkias would just reach into the countless 2-B range.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Which Palkia already is.

 

[GyroNutz]

Well yeah, I'm just saying that it wouldn't be 2-A

 

[Nemo212]

Well, hold up, though. How would it not be infinite? Assume we start in A-1, which contains a Reflection Cave.

A-1

v

B-1 (We jump in here through the first mirror in A-1.)

v

C-2 (I take the second mirror in B-1 so as not to go back to A-1.)

v

D-1 (I take the first mirror in C-2 so as not to go back to B-1.)

v

E-2 (I take the second mirror.)

v (ad infinitum)

∞-1

v

∞-2...

You see where I'm going with this, right?

 

[GyroNutz]

You can't count up to infinity with finite numbers

 

[Nemo212]

Well, no, I'm not counting up to infinity. It's an infinite recursion. It doesn't end. I can portal jump from a given universe's first portal to a given universe's second portal and so on infinitely, right? Unless I'm missing something, in which case break it down to me.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im not agreeing with 2-A anything here, but im just going to repeat what I said in the last reflection cave thread we had:

"Reflection Cave's universes are not something like an increasing chain of newly created universes. For every mirror there is in Reflection Cave, it lead's to another universe with it's own already existing reflection cave that has mirrors to lead to other universes with their own reflection caves and so on. The reflection caves that connect their mirrors to other universes with their own reflection caves simuntaneously exist at the same time. They would have to in order for them to be connected.

If Reflection Cave operated on a kind of "expansion chain" like some suggested, then not every mirror in a cave would be connected to a speific universe. Which is obviously wrong."

Also, just to keep in mind, a Reflection Cave easily has hundreds of mirrors inside and even outside of it so the idea of 1 cave having countless universes isn't entirely out of the question.

 

[GyroNutz]

Consider the universe "x", which is the universe you reach after "x" number of portal jumps. If you go through another portal, specifically your "x+1"th portal, you reach universe number "x+1". Both x and x+1 are finite. Do the process another x times from where you started and you get to universe "2x", still finite. Repeat the entire process x times over, you get to universe "x^2", still finite. It being endless doesn't make it infinite. However, if you did have something infinite (for instance, if there were infinite mirrors in the reflection cave, or if the universe was expanding in zero time, etc) that would get you infinite. But we don't have proof.

Just saw what Kukui posted. The universes being there would debunk them procedually expanding in this case, but this hinges on it all going on 'ad infinitum' in the first place, which is what we lack the proof for.

 

[Nemo212]

it's how the refraction cave works, each mirror leads to a different universe, with those universes having more mirrors leading to more universes with more mirrors and so on ad infinitum

^ This has been accepted for ages

You said it yourself, GyroNutz. The cave having infinite recursions has been accepted for ages, and it certainly wouldn't have been accepted if there was no proof for it.

 

[GyroNutz]

I meant it more as a large, countless number. We don't have enough proof that it goes on a literal infinite amount of times.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

There was another thread about reflection cave that did discuss the whole infinite thing though.

The only way it's not infinite is if there's a closed system amongst the mirror universes that makes the amount of them finite.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

What hapened to that whole idea that the universes can be interconnected.

Like imagine you have

World 1. World 1 links to World 2, 3 and 4.

World 2 links to World 2A, 2B, 2C, 2D

World 3 links to World 3A, 3B, 3C, 3D

World 4 links to World 4A, 4B, 4C, 4D

You might assume that each 2A to 4D world will link to new ones, but they don't have to.

Like World 2A could link to World 3A, 4A, etc. It doesn't have to be that each world explicilty leads to new ones if you keep going on. All it says is that each mirror leads to another world.

 

[Overlord775]

Nothing really points at that either

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Nothing really points at that either

^This. Plus, you can only reach a specific universe through a specific mirror rather than use any mirror available to you.

For instance, the mirror universe ash went to was only able to be reached through that specific mirror he went through. And the only way he could return to his universe was through that same mirror from the mirror universe he entered.

 

[PaChi2]

Nothing really points at that either

Conservative lowball.

 

[Overlord775]

Deosn't work like that, the stardard assumption would be countless universes, you need proof to show that universes loop to each other

also Kukui already posted a debunk to that

 

[Zeifyl]

So the mirrors can't connect to the same universes as other mirrors?

In that case, isn't the number of Universes = the number of Universes times several thousand?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

In that case, isn't the number of Universes = the number of Universes times several thousand?

Why Thousands? They'll go infinitely without ever stopping, or what Is called an ad infinitum

Arceus and the CT would still be Countless 2-B even If this gets debunked, because of the Ultra beast Universes.

So Arceus Avatars Varies,CT Avatars are Low 2-C (or 2-C via Scaling to Darkrai) and true forms are Countless 2-B until the Gen 4 remakes.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So the mirrors can't connect to the same universes as other mirrors?

Yeah. For every mirror that goes to a universe, that specific mirror can only connect to that specific universe.

So for a hypothetical example, lets say World 1 has 25 different mirrors in reflection cave, labeled A-Z. Each mirror out of the 25 connects to 25 different universes. Mirror A only connects to Universe A, Mirror B only connects to Universe B, etc. You can't use Mirror A to go to Universe B, or use Mirror B to connect to universe C, and so on.

 

[Zeifyl]

So the mirrors can't connect to the same universes as other mirrors?

Yeah. For every mirror that goes to a universe, that specific mirror can only connect to that specific universe.
So for a hypothetical example, lets say World 1 has 25 different mirrors in reflection cave, labeled A-Z. Each mirror out of the 25 connects to 25 different universes. Mirror A only connects to Universe A, Mirror B only connects to Universe B, etc. You can't use Mirror A to go to Universe B, or use Mirror B to connect to universe C, and so on.

Oh, like that. Then I misunderstood.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"Deosn't work like that, the stardard assumption would be countless universes, you need proof to show that universes loop to each other"

You don't. Nothing imply that the loop has to be endless. Literally all it states is that each mirror leads to its own world. And then we came to the conclusion that since these other worlds must contain other similar caves with other universes, that must mean that there are even further universes in each of those worlds.

But as far as I know, nothing indicates that these universes can't loop and link back to other universes.

 

[Overlord775]

it's not an assumption that they lead to more mirro caves, they showed it like that

also please read Kukui's comment, he already explained why that's wrong.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Arceus didn't get hit or even hurt by the meteorite, it willingly charged into it and destroyed it. The thing that made it almost die was the fact it lost its plates in the collision. The movie for some reason treats the plates as if they are an essence of its life force and it has like an Immortality Type 8 bond to it. Honestly I feel like the idea got retconned though and goes against the games. Literally all of the plates are scattered across regions and this doesn't remotely affect Arceus in the games and it was never even brought up again.


It's not like he properly appears in the games.

 

[Ionliosite]

Arceus hasn't appeared on any main games outside of events. What game has he even appeared outside of Conquest?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Ranger and Mystery Dungeon.

 

[Zeifyl]

Metaphysically, all of them.

Physically, Ranger and Mystery Dungeon.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Arceus hasn't appeared on any main games outside of events. What game has he even appeared outside of Conquest?

That's what I was saying.

 

[Nemo212]

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[The_King_of_Prudence]

Does he have any feats in that?